Dark bore?

[no34570]

Hi
I have a Martini Enfield MkII rifle in .303 British,it has a really dark bore,but plenty of rifling left.
What would be the best way to clean it out with?
Soak it with bore cleaners?
Shoot it out?
Shoot some paper patch(unlubed)through it?

Any other suggestions?
I only have some Wipe out bore cleaner on hand(not much by the way,have to do some shopping me thinks)
I've got some ammonia,but it's the cloudy kind and it's strength on the label says it is rated at 4%.

HELP?

[arclight]

My new procedure for cleaning up filthy milsurp rifles is to use "Outers Bore Foam." This stuff comes in a can with a little hose, kind of like a "fix a flat" dispenser. Just follow the directions, which involve foaming up the inside and letting it sit before aggressively scrubbing it. You might loosen up a bunch of old fouling and junk, revealing a nice, shiny bore underneath.

After that, shooting paper patch boolits definite shines things up further. You could lap with some fine polishing compound applied to the patch, but I've never had to go that far.

Dark or not, see if it shoots!

Arclight

[no34570]

My new procedure for cleaning up filthy milsurp rifles is to use "Outers Bore Foam." This stuff comes in a can with a little hose, kind of like a "fix a flat" dispenser. Just follow the directions, which involve foaming up the inside and letting it sit before aggressively scrubbing it. You might loosen up a bunch of old fouling and junk, revealing a nice, shiny bore underneath.

After that, shooting paper patch boolits definite shines things up further. You could lap with some fine polishing compound applied to the patch, but I've never had to go that far.

Dark or not, see if it shoots!

Arclight
Arclight
Thanks for that mate.
Have never seen the Outers Bore Foam,will have to look for it,but will try some others in the mean time.
Thanks again mate

[Bloodman14]

My first LE had a bore so dark, I thought I was looking down a coal shaft! I soaked mine in Hoppe's No. 9 solvent for a week, followed by Hoppe's Copper Solvent for another week. Use a Berdan case with an old earplug in the breech to seal the chamber and pour the solvent down the bore. Mine came out shiney!

[no34570]

My first LE had a bore so dark, I thought I was looking down a coal shaft! I soaked mine in Hoppe's No. 9 solvent for a week, followed by Hoppe's Copper Solvent for another week. Use a Berdan case with an old earplug in the breech to seal the chamber and pour the solvent down the bore. Mine came out shiney!

Gunnerd
Thanks for that,might try that one first,I will have to look to see what solvents I have on hand,for the local gunshop is over 145km's away,one way.:shock:

Thanks.[smilie=s:

[Lead Fred]

Brother, before you go spending a ton of money.

I found a can of this at a gun show for $1.50.

You have to wear gloves and a respirator.

It was designed to clean primer corrosion.

I had a pair of black fuzzy 8mm mausers.

They are brite and shinny now, with two treatments of this nasty ****

http://www.omahas.com/product_info.php?cPath=16_113&products_id=439&osCsid=6d5sr81bhejarkjmmfkosgf817

[Maven]

no34570, If the solvents don't produce the desired results, you may want to read Ken Mollohan's (Molly on this site) article, "Technical Ramblings: Bore Polishing" in the May-June, 2009 "The Fouling Shot" (CBA publication) or send him a PM about it.

[longbow]

I got to ask ~ have you shot it and determined that the dark bore is causing you grief?

If not then I would just shoot it and enjoy it. If so then I would go the bore cleaner route first (Hoppe's, Outers, or whatever) then see how it shoots. The dark may be copper build up that a copper removing gun solvent will take out.

Ammonia is another pretty safe option. Here is a good article on cast boolits in .303 but also bore cleaning tips:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

The bore cleaning is right at the end of the article.

I wouldn't do anything drastic (like firelapping) until you have determined that there is a need.

Longbow

[RU shooter]

I got to ask ~ have you shot it and determined that the dark bore is causing you grief?



Longbow
I have to agree with Longbow I basicly gave up on trying to get dark bores on milsurps back to shinney clean ,I shoot them and if I cant get acceptable accuracy with some proven loads I'll see if the dark bore is causing any issues.If it dont lead up on the old fouling and shoots decently just shoot and enjoy it.


Tim

[Char-Gar]

Before you try the magic solvents, do what the British Army did. Put a funnel in the chamber and pour about a gallon of boiling hot water down the barrel. About half it should be soapy and the other half clean. Wear gloves or put the rifle in a vise muzzle down as it will get hot, hot , hot.

[mike in co]

and then there is my simple plan: naval jelly and a ss bore brush....


two- three applications and you are good to go.


mike in co

[dualsport]

OK, I'll ask. What is the 'dark' in a dark bore? I have some, never really knew what it is.

[dualsport]

Hoping for some thoughts on this. Is the 'dark' just built up crud, or has something happened to the steel? Cleaning some of my milsurps seems like an indefinite project, there's always more crud coming out. What really cuts through ground in cosmoline?

[docone31]

It is almost a carbon staining. The pores in the steel pick up the carbon, and the following round rams it in.
Cosmoline removal?
Simple, boil it. Easy off also gets rid of it. Doesn't hurt wood either.

[Treetop]

When I finally "swore off" J words forever, I used this simple, cheap, homemade electronic bore cleaner to get rid of all of the copper jacket fouling.

The results are remarkable. I have used it on two Rem. 788s, one Rem. 700 and one of my SAI M1-As. I had to disassemble the gas cylinder and wrap Teflon tape around the gas port on the M1-A.

I have not done my Garand yet because I just had it rebarrelled and I'm still breaking it in with Greek CMP ammo.

Here is the website:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

[Beekeeper]

No34570,
I am an antique rifle nut.
I have never found one that had a good to excellent bore.
I use the electronic bore cleaner to clean all of the bores on all of my antique and milsurp rifles.
You can buy one if you want but I made my own.
There several articles about making your own over on surplus rifle .com's forum.
I use baking soda and water ( 1 teaspoon soda to 1 pint of common tap water) to get most of the crud (and I do mean crud) as you will think you ruined the bore the first couple of times.
Run it for 15 - 20 minutes and dump it ,swab the bore and then do it again until it comes clean.
To break the copper fouling loose I use white vinegar and water 50/50 for a couple of times and then return to the baking soda and water.

On a bet I took one that was even rusty and cleaned it up to the point that it shot great.(never shined but was a good shooter with good rifling.
It takes a long time so do not get discouraged as it does work and work well.


Jim

[Pirate69]

The 303British.com article suggested leaving ammonia in the barrel for an extended period of time. A number of the ammonia-containing copper removing solutions suggest leaving it in for only a short period of time. There is a reason for this caution. The ammonia in the solution will react with the copper and form copper oxide and nitrous acid. The nitrous acid, in solution, will quickly decompose to form nitrogen oxide and nitric acid. Depending on the barrel steel and the strength of the acid formed, the acid could attack the barrel. Just a word of caution.

[Treetop]

I use baking soda and water ( 1 teaspoon soda to 1 pint of common tap water) to get most of the crud (and I do mean crud) as you will think you ruined the bore the first couple of times.
Run it for 15 - 20 minutes and dump it ,swab the bore and then do it again until it comes clean.
To break the copper fouling loose I use white vinegar and water 50/50 for a couple of times and then return to the baking soda and water.
Jim

Beekeeper, thanks for the tip re: baking soda to neutralize the vinegar. I plan to use 1 tsp. of baking soda : 1 pint of tap water both before and after the 50/50 vinegar solution from now on!

[Multigunner]

When filling the bore with ammonia based solvents the standard practice is to plug the chamber and slip a short length of rubber tubing over the muzzle.

If the bore doesn't stay full the corrosive actions mentioned earlier take place at the interface between the level of solvent and the air and eat away a tideline ring in the bore.
By using the tubing you can keep the solvent level above the muzzle the steel is then isolated from the air.
Check often and top up if necessary.

Any old metal fouling in the rifle mentioned would most likely be Cupro-Nickel.
Theres probably a lot of carbon and resin build up as well.
Cupronickel turns blue instead of green when dissolved by a solvent.
When soaking old Enfield bores the residue usually looks like blue black ink or thinned paint.

Old CN fouling can hide deep pitting. Sometimes the Cupronickel peels way in strips from the grooves and the steel under it can look like the surface of the moon.

One Mosin Nagant I tried cleaning turned out to have more carbon filled pitting than bore steel in the bottom of the grooves.
The owner wanted the barrel shortened due to muzzle damage and the cross section revealed that pitting went halfway through the barrel wall in tightly packed tiny but deep pits. The steel at the bottom resembled the fibers of a toothbrush. The lands were not bad, and suprizingly the shortened rifle shot very accurately with mild loads. I would not trust it with full power loads though.

[Pirate69]

Great post Multigunner!!!!! The reaction does require oxygen to proceed and the use of the rubber tube to prevent exposure to oxygen is a great idea to prevent it. I had not thought that through. I think I just learned a way of using a cheap ammonia solution to remove copper safely.

[no34570]

Brother, before you go spending a ton of money.

I found a can of this at a gun show for $1.50.

You have to wear gloves and a respirator.

It was designed to clean primer corrosion.

I had a pair of black fuzzy 8mm mausers.

They are brite and shinny now, with two treatments of this nasty ****

http://www.omahas.com/product_info.php?cPath=16_113&products_id=439&osCsid=6d5sr81bhejarkjmmfkosgf817

Thanks for that,but I don't thin I could get this sent over here to Australia:-( Hazardous Material.

[no34570]

Hey Fellas
Thanks for the replies and I will shoot the gun before I do anything,but I have a lot of information there from you all and I appreciate it.
Thanks

[Tazman1602]

Brother, before you go spending a ton of money.

I found a can of this at a gun show for $1.50.

You have to wear gloves and a respirator.

It was designed to clean primer corrosion.

I had a pair of black fuzzy 8mm mausers.

They are brite and shinny now, with two treatments of this nasty ****

http://www.omahas.com/product_info.php?cPath=16_113&products_id=439&osCsid=6d5sr81bhejarkjmmfkosgf817

Geez I've got a CASE of the stuff I bought off of ebay before all the hazmat charges got rediculous...........................think I paid like twenty bucks for it.

[no34570]

Geez I've got a CASE of the stuff I bought off of ebay before all the hazmat charges got rediculous...........................think I paid like twenty bucks for it.
Tazman1602
Hey mate,what is the ingredients in it?
Could it be duplicated,like make a copy of it?

[smilie=s:

[Tazman1602]

Tazman1602
Hey mate,what is the ingredients in it?
Could it be duplicated,like make a copy of it?

[smilie=s:

No, no ingredient list at all but it does have:

Specification RIXS 205 Rev 1
Purchase order 43-18171

On the can. States it can be left in the bore or wiped out and bore oiled if wished on the can but not much more. Case is out in the barn put away, I had one can in the house -- the best one, for my collection of antique "stuff" and it is sealed so I couldn't even get a whiff..........actually I was afraid to use it.........................

Art

[Multigunner]

Not sure but the solvent in question may have Mercury in it.

Many years ago I opened a near empty tin of this stuff , I think the seal had been broken and volatiles had evaporated, and the cap looked like it had a puddle of liquid mercury clinging to it.

Awhile back I ran across mentions of a commercial solvent of that time period that had mercury in some form added to the formula. How this was accomplished I have no idea.

[no34570]

Not sure but the solvent in question may have Mercury in it.

Many years ago I opened a near empty tin of this stuff , I think the seal had been broken and volatiles had evaporated, and the cap looked like it had a puddle of liquid mercury clinging to it.

Awhile back I ran across mentions of a commercial solvent of that time period that had mercury in some form added to the formula. How this was accomplished I have no idea.

Holy Cow,Mecury:-o
That could be hazardous to ya health!
thanks for that.

[no34570]

Hi Fellas
Update to my problem
Took the Martini out today for a few shots,got a grouping of around 2-2.5 inch at not quite 100 meters(96.7 to be exact),thats not too bad,ya reckon?.

Fired around 10 rounds first off,the first shot looked like it was black powder coming out the barrel(a fair bit of smoke and debris)the one's after that started to come clean,took it home and was ready to clean the bore,looked down it and to my surprise,a hell of a lot of the dark bore was gone:-o could see really good amount of rifling in the bore compared to when I got it(I did soak the barrel for a day in Ed's Red with more MEK added to the recipe):-o
Almost see the bottom of the lands.
So I cleaned it and then grabbed some more ammo and went to try shooting the old girl and got around the 2 to 2.5 inch group,first was around 3 in+,got it home again and looked down the bore and it's about the same,maybe a bit cleaner.

So maybe I just have to shoot the gunk out of her. So I'm happy:bigsmyl2: will have to see if I can get it a bit more cleaner,but not to worried now.

Wow,I love the good Ol .303.