PDA

View Full Version : working gun



hoss-noogy
12-11-2009, 12:29 PM
Whats your favorite working gun? One you strap on to compliment your hunting rifle( if not primary hunting gun),go check the cows,ect.

Bucks Owin
12-11-2009, 12:39 PM
My Old Model Super Single Six, "Jim Taylor Special" with one hole of it's .22 LR cylinder reamed to .22 WMR. It'll group good ammo into an inch @ 25 with either fodder and that WMR hole usually holds a shotshell, excellent for snakes. My constant outdoor companion and a good one IMO.. Dennis http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/Snake002.jpg

kingstrider
12-11-2009, 12:58 PM
My Old Model Super Single Six, "Jim Taylor Special" with one hole of it's .22 LR cylinder reamed to .22 WMR. It'll group good ammo into an inch @ 25 with either fodder and that WMR hole usually holds a shotshell, excellent for snakes. My constant outdoor companion and a good one IMO.. Dennis

That's pretty cool, I've never heard of such a mod but am sure it works well.

Bucks Owin
12-11-2009, 01:39 PM
That's pretty cool, I've never heard of such a mod but am sure it works well. Well, you gotta carry with hammer down on an empty hole, so why not have it in WMR?...;-) Dennis

beagle
12-11-2009, 03:23 PM
Pretty useful mod there.

I have two favorites. One's my Blackhawk .357 if I'm walking around on the place and want to wear a holster. If I'm on the tractor or in the PU where unencumbered movement is desired, the 9mm High Power goes in a rigged up shoulder holster. If I'm draining the dog before going to bed, the HP goes in my hip pocket. /beagle

odis
12-11-2009, 06:18 PM
When I lived out in the country I had either a MK1 or a Blackhawk .45 on my hip when ever out of the house. My wife and I are hoping to move out in the next year and I think that I revert back to my old habits right away.

Lloyd Smale
12-11-2009, 07:08 PM
stainless 4 5/8s super 44 mag. Its got an aluminum grip frame and ejector rod fluted cylinder that was black powder champered. The frame and recoil shield were scalloped a bowen rear and clements post front are on it and the grips are white micra that have a picture of elmer kieth on one side and my dog elmer keith on the other and the action was slicked up. Sounds pretty fancy but its more just a working gun all the work was done by me or my neihbor other then the scrmshaw and it was done by another buddy. Picked it up used at a good price and most of the parts ive added i allready had in the parts box. Its a light easy to carry package and shoots real well to boot. Its the gun i grab probably more then all the rest combined.

Jim
12-11-2009, 07:17 PM
Taurus Judge, 4" blued barrel, Sierra 230 JHPs.

Rodfac
12-11-2009, 07:23 PM
I've got two that I use. One's a .44 Spl Ruger/Lipsey's Blackhawk and the other is a .45 LC "New" Vaquero. Either will do the job in the lower 48. Regards, Rodfac


http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Handguns/44Splwithrig.jpghttp://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Handguns/Vaquero.jpg

9.3X62AL
12-11-2009, 08:26 PM
S&W Model 686 x 4", an older 6-shot variant. Usual load is either factory 158 grain W-W JHPs, or #358156 atop 13.0 grains of 2400. I genuinely trust and enjoy the 357 Magnum caliber.

robertbank
12-11-2009, 08:33 PM
My Norinco 1911 using .45-08 cartridges. At 1300 FPS the 200 LSWC will do a number on anything on four legs up here when the shotgun or rifle is not at hand. Fast reloads as well.

Take Care

Bob

Char-Gar
12-11-2009, 10:23 PM
Buck... I have shot Jim Taylors single six with the one mag charge hole. It was put together by his father and has a turned down Winchester 52 barrel. I swear it has the lightest trigger of any hangun I have every fired. It must be less than one pound. Jim's father set it up that way and hasn't moved in years and years, and thousands and thousands of rounds.

Jim has moved to Africa and is doing missionary work.

bob208
12-11-2009, 11:00 PM
my first work gun was a ruger 4 5/8 .357 blackhawk old model. got that in 71 used. then i moved up to a ruger security-six 4" stainless. in 77. i used loads listed for the .38-44 in .38 cases and hand cast bullets. because i could not aford .357 loads.

NHlever
12-12-2009, 10:14 AM
stainless 4 5/8s super 44 mag. Its got an aluminum grip frame and ejector rod fluted cylinder that was black powder champered. The frame and recoil shield were scalloped a bowen rear and clements post front are on it and the grips are white micra that have a picture of elmer kieth on one side and my dog elmer keith on the other and the action was slicked up. Sounds pretty fancy but its more just a working gun all the work was done by me or my neihbor other then the scrmshaw and it was done by another buddy. Picked it up used at a good price and most of the parts ive added i allready had in the parts box. Its a light easy to carry package and shoots real well to boot. Its the gun i grab probably more then all the rest combined.

Lloyd, I just switched the grip frames, and triggers on my Single Six, and 5 1/2" Super Blackhawk. It is a really nice conversion, and left both guns weighing within an ounce of each other around 37-38 oz. ( Both are 5 1/2") The front sight that came on this used SBH is a bit low, and needs to be fixed, and I'm debating cutting the barrel to 4 5/8" at the same time. Either way, I agree that a light, and handy .44 makes a darn good woods companion, and working gun. Surprisingly, both guns are similar in balance too.

Bucks Owin
12-12-2009, 12:28 PM
Buck... I have shot Jim Taylors single six with the one mag charge hole. It was put together by his father and has a turned down Winchester 52 barrel. I swear it has the lightest trigger of any hangun I have every fired. It must be less than one pound. Jim's father set it up that way and hasn't moved in years and years, and thousands and thousands of rounds.

Jim has moved to Africa and is doing missionary work.Hey that's cool amigo! I read of Jim's S6 at the LA silhouette website articles section and thought what a great idea! So when I bought my OM SS6 with a mag cyl only, I swapped the mag cyl for a 22LR cyl and had my own "Jim Taylor Special" built. (If I had a M-52 Winnie, I doubt I'd sacrifice it's barrel in this day and age though!) At any rate, it's a fine idea for a 3 screw S6. (Or any other for that matter, especially in snake country. A .22 WMR shotshell is a very effective snake round to have handy!) Thanks for the story and I hope all is fine with Mr Taylor down in Africa...Best, Dennis :drinks: (BTW, I had my trigger worked down to a "breaking glass" 2.5 lbs and wouldn't want it any lighter. Mine also wears the gripframe and stocks from my old .44 Flattop..) :wink:

Char-Gar
12-12-2009, 12:51 PM
Buck... IIRC it was a take off barrel that was hanging around the shop. I don't think they robbed a good Winchester 52. We all tend to accumulate a stock of barrels. Last week I made a handle for my new/old Pacific Super C press from 1917 Enfield barrel. Sorta cool to look through the press handle and see rifling.

Iim is 67 years old and mission work has been on his heart for some years now. Few folks know he is also a Pastor. I think he and Twila figured it was about time to do it, as you never know what is coming down the line. They are among the first of people.

Bucks Owin
12-12-2009, 01:26 PM
Buck... IIRC it was a take off barrel that was hanging around the shop. I don't think they robbed a good Winchester 52. We all tend to accumulate a stock of barrels. Last week I made a handle for my new/old Pacific Super C press from 1917 Enfield barrel. Sorta cool to look through the press handle and see rifling.

Iim is 67 years old and mission work has been on his heart for some years now. Few folks know he is also a Pastor. I think he and Twila figured it was about time to do it, as you never know what is coming down the line. They are among the first of people. Not to hijack the thread but I just wanted to give a plug to gunsmith Larry Mears of Redding CA who did the work on my OM SS6. I fired this group right out of the gate after he did his thing. I doubt many S6's will shoot WMR any better! Thanks Larry!....Dennis.................................. ................................ http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/22WM001.jpg

Dale53
12-12-2009, 06:01 PM
MY criteria for a field pistol is determined what I am hunting for. When shotgunning for Grouse in Eastern Ohio or the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, I always took a center fire handgun with me (in a crossdraw holster to avoid damaging the stock on my shotgun). The handgun was for snow shoe rabbits and wounded grouse. Occasionally, a grouse would get a broken wing, (Grouse can be VERY challenging in thick brush). They would hit the ground and easily keep ahead of you. They would let you get within easy head shooting distance but not close enough to catch. If you didn't stop them they would bury themselves in a briar patch so thick it would take a bulldozer to get them out. On the other hand, it was an easy handgun shot to shoot their heads off for an instant (and safe) shot.

My favorite was any centerfire stainless steel revolver (we often hunted grouse in the rain). When raining, you can WATCH a blued revolver rust right before your eyes. If the law allowed you to wear the revolver under a coat rust woudn't be a problem - unfortunately, many jurisdictions will NOT:mad:.

I have shot , cotton tail rabbits, snow shoe rabbits and grouse with several different centerfires. .38 Wadcutters are probably as good a choice as any but .32's work well and contrary to conventional wisdom, a .44 or .45 works very well. Wadcutters or SWC's are the bullet of choice for obvious reasons. A snowshoe rabbit with a single hole through the "slats" or a grouse missing his head does NO damage to meat and is a SURE stopper...

Dale53

BOOM BOOM
12-12-2009, 06:20 PM
hi,
RUGER REDHAWK, 357 OR 44, DEPENDS ON WHAT I AM DOING/HUNTING.:Fire:

jmsj
12-12-2009, 07:15 PM
Hello
For a back up gun for hunting I use a Ruger Bisley Vaquero 4 5/8" in 45 Colt, loaded pretty hot w/ 255 SWC.
For years I was a working cowboy and ranch foreman. I found that large frame .44 and .45 caliber revolvers were pretty uncomfortable to carry 10 to 14 hours a day. Regardless of what type of rig I used the gun was either poking me, hitting the swells or cantle of the saddle or in the way when roping or doctoring cattle. I realized that all I was really using the gun for was shooting snakes or putting down sick or wounded animals. The black bears and mountain lions seem to take off anytime they see or scent humans. and the only time I saw them it wasn't hunting season.
The answer to my dilema was a Ruger Bearcat. It was light, small and accurate (5 of 6 cylinders into 1 1/2" @ 25yds, the 6th cylinder- who knows. Timing issue I guess). Carried in either a homemade crossdraaw holster or in a chap pocket, I didn't really notice it. I carried this pistol for many years in all kinds of wheather and it never failed me. The bluing is mostly gone and it shows its share of wear. of all the guns I own, this is not the most expensive or most useful but it is probably my favorite.
This my first post. I have been reloading for over 25 years and am now starting to try to cast my own bullets. This the most informative forum I have ever been on. Not only is the wealth of knowledge amazing but the willingness to share thhis knowledge.
Many Thanks, jmsj

Lloyd Smale
12-12-2009, 07:43 PM
in my opinion the alum. grip frame makes a 4 5/8s handle great. They have a front heavy feel like a longer barreled steel framed gun and are much easier to carry in a hip holster. Ruger should make a 44 model like that. Better yet make me a aluminum bisley frame now that would make a slick gun!!
Lloyd, I just switched the grip frames, and triggers on my Single Six, and 5 1/2" Super Blackhawk. It is a really nice conversion, and left both guns weighing within an ounce of each other around 37-38 oz. ( Both are 5 1/2") The front sight that came on this used SBH is a bit low, and needs to be fixed, and I'm debating cutting the barrel to 4 5/8" at the same time. Either way, I agree that a light, and handy .44 makes a darn good woods companion, and working gun. Surprisingly, both guns are similar in balance too.

hoss-noogy
12-12-2009, 10:10 PM
Hello
For a back up gun for hunting I use a Ruger Bisley Vaquero 4 5/8" in 45 Colt, loaded pretty hot w/ 255 SWC.
For years I was a working cowboy and ranch foreman. I found that large frame .44 and .45 caliber revolvers were pretty uncomfortable to carry 10 to 14 hours a day. Regardless of what type of rig I used the gun was either poking me, hitting the swells or cantle of the saddle or in the way when roping or doctoring cattle. I realized that all I was really using the gun for was shooting snakes or putting down sick or wounded animals. The black bears and mountain lions seem to take off anytime they see or scent humans. and the only time I saw them it wasn't hunting season.
The answer to my dilema was a Ruger Bearcat. It was light, small and accurate (5 of 6 cylinders into 1 1/2" @ 25yds, the 6th cylinder- who knows. Timing issue I guess). Carried in either a homemade crossdraaw holster or in a chap pocket, I didn't really notice it. I carried this pistol for many years in all kinds of wheather and it never failed me. The bluing is mostly gone and it shows its share of wear. of all the guns I own, this is not the most expensive or most useful but it is probably my favorite.
This my first post. I have been reloading for over 25 years and am now starting to try to cast my own bullets. This the most informative forum I have ever been on. Not only is the wealth of knowledge amazing but the willingness to share thhis knowledge.
Many Thanks, jmsj

Welcome to the madness

41 mag fan
12-13-2009, 08:54 AM
Kimber 1911 Pro Carry. Fits so nicely to my hip, if i didn't sleep in my skivvy's I'd wear it to bed.

Bret4207
12-13-2009, 09:59 AM
JMSJ- Welcome aboard! Good tale. Having been in a job that required carrying a gun 8-12 hours a day I know what you mean about it getting in the way.

For general field work, wood cutting, messing about on the farm nothing beats my Charter Bulldog. It's big enough to handle anything I'm likely to bump into (think Jersey and longhorn bulls- my neighbors "fences" are more a thought than a fact), accurate enough for small game varmints as far as I can realistically hit and light/inexpensive enough that I can carry it in good conscience. If it get's dinged or wet it's not going to cause me to cry like a little girl. OTOH, if my Smiff 24 gets dust on it I get twitchy and have to clean it up ASAP.

Another good one is the Smith Bodyguard. It rides in a front pocket and works fine for most stuff with any decent hand load. My range is cut about in half because if the sights and my eyes.

For trapline work nothing beats a Smith 22 lr Kit Gun in a GOOD holster. I spent a day and half looking in the fields and swamp for this gun once. If I ever rig up a lanyard ring I'll use a paracord lanyard on it too. With CB caps or HP shorts it dispatches 'coon, coyote, beaver, etc with no problems and even with a toe held 'yote I can hit from 25 yards or so and drop him.

Beleive it or not I have a little Astra Constable 380 that works pretty good in the field. I use a 90 gr FN boolt I got from a member here. I'm still fiddling with the AOL to get the feeding down, but it seems to kill well. I've only got a couple skunks and feral cats, but they dropped right there. Losing the brass is the big thing since I'm tighter than a new boot.

A Smith '17 45ACP works great, but as JMSJ says, it's heavy, just like my Blackhawk and all the other bigger guns.

Thumbcocker
12-13-2009, 12:51 PM
For woods tromping and just messing around I like my 4" stainless kit gun. It is accurate enough to squirrel hunt with if you can stalk at all and it and 100 rounds weigh almost nothing. For fun I throw a roll of necco wafers in my pocket with a set of ear muffs and have a ball. A necco at 15 yards is a pretty sporty target.

When I want ot make bigger holes in stuff it is teh 4 5/8" SuperBlackhawk that I deer hunted with this year. Usually a 429421 over red dot or 8.0 of Unique.

Bucks Owin
12-13-2009, 01:59 PM
For woods tromping and just messing around I like my 4" stainless kit gun. It is accurate enough to squirrel hunt with if you can stalk at all and it and 100 rounds weigh almost nothing. For fun I throw a roll of necco wafers in my pocket with a set of ear muffs and have a ball. A necco at 15 yards is a pretty sporty target.

When I want ot make bigger holes in stuff it is teh 4 5/8" SuperBlackhawk that I deer hunted with this year. Usually a 429421 over red dot or 8.0 of Unique.
Yep, another fun aside to packin' a rimfire. You can generally find a spot to do a little plinkin' along the way!....Dennis :Fire:

Bullshop
12-13-2009, 03:20 PM
First model Ruger single six 22ccm. Pretty sure I have the only one. Out performs 22wmr and cost about a buck to load a box of 50.
I once used it to dispatch a moose and when eating the toung found my nicely expanded boolit. I had shot down from the top of the head so know it penitrated pretty well. It wears 35 year old well aged and yellowed stag gripps. A potent little round that is a pleasure to shoot and a more perfect boolit gun I can not think of.
BIC/BS

357tex
12-13-2009, 04:39 PM
I carry a md 19 or 66 everday around my place as I work,and have for a long time.Some times a 4 in. or a 2.5 in.I trust the 357 to kill most things that need it around my place.I carry a long gun in the truck also.

Jack Stanley
12-13-2009, 06:22 PM
Generally that one to go into the woods and fields is a four inch model twenty-nine . I have been known to switch up with a model eighteen from time to time , usually when I have a long gun of some sort with me .

Jack

Changeling
12-13-2009, 08:07 PM
Hello
For a back up gun for hunting I use a Ruger Bisley Vaquero 4 5/8" in 45 Colt, loaded pretty hot w/ 255 SWC.
For years I was a working cowboy and ranch foreman. I found that large frame .44 and .45 caliber revolvers were pretty uncomfortable to carry 10 to 14 hours a day. Regardless of what type of rig I used the gun was either poking me, hitting the swells or cantle of the saddle or in the way when roping or doctoring cattle. I realized that all I was really using the gun for was shooting snakes or putting down sick or wounded animals. The black bears and mountain lions seem to take off anytime they see or scent humans. and the only time I saw them it wasn't hunting season.
The answer to my dilema was a Ruger Bearcat. It was light, small and accurate (5 of 6 cylinders into 1 1/2" @ 25yds, the 6th cylinder- who knows. Timing issue I guess). Carried in either a homemade crossdraaw holster or in a chap pocket, I didn't really notice it. I carried this pistol for many years in all kinds of wheather and it never failed me. The bluing is mostly gone and it shows its share of wear. of all the guns I own, this is not the most expensive or most useful but it is probably my favorite.
This my first post. I have been reloading for over 25 years and am now starting to try to cast my own bullets. This the most informative forum I have ever been on. Not only is the wealth of knowledge amazing but the willingness to share thhis knowledge.
Many Thanks, jmsj

Good grief I thought I was the only one in the world that really loved the BearCat. In the spring through the early fall it stays in the kitchen loaded with CCI shot shells for snakes and chipmunks that seem to think the deck/yard is there property and I am the intruder, maybe they are right but while I am still hear the BC takes care of things just fine thank you. In the winter it stays in the bedroom along with a Belgian made 9mm HP and a Ruger Mark I . I have had occasion to use the guns at night for a break in but grabbed the 9mm for that!!!

I just don't think I could function correctly without my BearCat and I own a lot of guns. However if I had to say what is used the most I would have to say it definitely has a very close place with me.
If you had to shoot a snake on the kitchen floor, witch one do you think you would grab? The BearCat with CCI shot, are a 13 round 9mm, LOL.

Tazman1602
12-13-2009, 09:01 PM
Ruger P-90 .45acp

I KNOW I KNOW...............mine happens to be "special" and is actually accurate and reliable..............dead nuts accurate.......

I'd much prefer a Kimber 1911, fits my hand better but can't afford that unless somebodys got one they want to trade for a mini-14..............

Art

Leadforbrains
12-13-2009, 10:48 PM
Ruger P-90 .45acp

I KNOW I KNOW...............mine happens to be "special" and is actually accurate and reliable..............dead nuts accurate.......

I'd much prefer a Kimber 1911, fits my hand better but can't afford that unless somebodys got one they want to trade for a mini-14..............

Art

I do not own one, but I have shot a couple different P90s and they have all been accurate and reliable. They seem to be of good value for the dollar to me.

oldhickory
12-14-2009, 01:23 PM
The S&W 629-3, 4" in my avatar stoked with Elmer's load, 20gr. of 2400 and a Lyman 4330421 cast from plain old wws. Actual boolit weight is right around 265gr.

August
12-14-2009, 01:52 PM
Good thread. I never knew there were choices other than a 629.

dualsport
12-14-2009, 02:53 PM
It's got a 3" barrel, five shots, stainless steel, and adjustable sights, I think 24 oz. You can't beat it for versatility, from gallery to dragon loads. I don't shoot many dragons, but you get the point. With a little practice reloads are quick with a speed loader, just in case you end up in combat with a handgun. The trigger is just getting better with age and it points natural for instinctive shooting.

Bass Ackward
12-14-2009, 03:45 PM
Folks have some pretty varied interests and reasons for those interests. And as usual, the list is always impressive. I wish that I could just dazzle you with my choice but I don't really have one.

After much thought, and looking back in time as far as I can remember, I find that my only requirement these days to qualify as my favorite working gun is the one (caliber) that I happen to have ammo loaded for.

Yep, sorry, I know that that sounds like a cop out, but I'll wear anything that'll go boom and I don't have to bend over to pick up the brass. :grin:

jbc
12-14-2009, 06:13 PM
First model Ruger single six 22ccm. Pretty sure I have the only one. Out performs 22wmr and cost about a buck to load a box of 50.
I once used it to dispatch a moose and when eating the toung found my nicely expanded boolit. I had shot down from the top of the head so know it penitrated pretty well. It wears 35 year old well aged and yellowed stag gripps. A potent little round that is a pleasure to shoot and a more perfect boolit gun I can not think of.
BIC/BS

wow bullshop I had to google ccm to see what it was - I like it - can you still get brass anywhere?

Bullshop
12-14-2009, 09:36 PM
jdc
Yes Sir you sure can get brass. The 22 ccm is now what it should have been from the beginning.
I use Shroader brass. When I first started using it I kept count of how many loadings I got with it and at 50 I quit counting. That was about 6 years ago and they have been loaded at least that many time again by now.
There is another source of brass or ammo. You see the 22 ccm has had three separate lives. The first was the 22 Maynard extra long, the next was and is the European 5.57 Velo dog, and the third and highest pressure loading is the 22 Cooper Center fire Magnum.
I am fortunate enough to have one of a very few of the original Cooper Mpd 38 rifles for the 22 ccm. I also reamed a contender barrel in 22 mag for the ccm. It worked very well and can still fire the rim fire cartridge.
If anyone is interested in having a 22 ccm I have a reamer.
I will see if Jr. will post a pic of my single six.
BIC/BS

legend
12-15-2009, 05:19 AM
I carry my ruger 4 5/8 41 mag blackhawk,i have since 1976.

NickSS
12-15-2009, 06:40 AM
This is an interesting thread and I have given my response considerable thought What I carry depends a lot on what I am doing but I have to say that over the years the pistol I mostly use around the home is my Remington 1858 cap and ball revolver. I am, among other things, a Civil War buff and I like the old guns. I have had this particular revolver for over 40 years and use it a lot. It is always loaded and I carry it in a flap holster that protects it from the weather pretty well. I have shot all sorts of critters with it over the years and probably have put well over 50,000 rounds through it. I also carry it when hunting big game during black powder season. With that said, My next most used pistol is a Ruger Security 6 stainless with a Six inch barrel. That is my most carried gun when I travel or hunt with modern weapons. I have to admit that more recently I have become partial to a Uberti colt SSA clone with a 5.5 inch barrel in 45 colt so it has largely superseded my Ruger lately. These are my outdoor guns for work and play but for CCW carry I stick with an SP101 in 357 mag or a Bersa 380 depending on my mood.

Down South
12-15-2009, 08:05 AM
Ruger P-90 .45acp

I KNOW I KNOW...............mine happens to be "special" and is actually accurate and reliable..............dead nuts accurate.......

I have a P-90 that's fairly new to me but the accuracy is there. I bought it used at a great price. I actually planned for it to be a bedside and truck gun.


Good thread. I never knew there were choices other than a 629.

My 629 is rigged for hunting. I have a Ultra Dot mounted on it. I only use it while hunting. I wear it in a bandoleer holster and it's sort of bulky for just beating around.

I always have my S&W 642 in my pocket but my fun gun is my stainless Ruger GP-100 W/6” Barrel. I wear it cross draw on my left side.

Three44s
12-15-2009, 10:19 AM
My top choice is a 629 MG.

If the bears are in bed ...... my 4" Security Six in .357

If I'm feeling lucky: My Kel Tec PF9

Three 44s

Steve Collins
12-20-2009, 01:22 AM
18067

This is my current working gun, a gift from my wife. It was NIB, unfired when I got it. 29-3 .44 Magnum, 4" nickel finish. Leather is Simply Rugged Loaded Pancake with thumb break. Rounds are 250-K and 19.5grs of 2400.

They go about 1" above the center of the bullseye at 25 yards; dead center with my CCW load, .44 Special 200gr Speer Gold Dot. I got no complaints.:grin:

dukenukum
12-20-2009, 09:30 AM
HI-POINT .45 auto loaded with 200 grain semi wad cutters or 200 grain jacketed hollow points (prefer semi wad cutters)