Lee Enfield MK II "Target" .303 British

[bearmn56]

Just bought one of these rifles from a local gunshop. Condition is about 95% with a perfect bore. Five lands and grooves, left hand twist, and appears to be about a 1 in 10 twist. With some careful measurement of a slug driven into the bore, I was able to come up with a .313 groove diameter. (I rotate the slug between the the micrometer contact surfaces and loosen the thimble until resistance to rotation just disappears). Past experience with odd numbered lands and grooves suggests that , while not perfect, this method will give a useable reading for bore diameter. Also, pushing the slug completely thru the bore suggests that this particular bore is quite uniform. No tight or loose spots.

It has a fold up/down target type rear sight with a small wheel in the peep that changes the peep aperature's size. It has windage and elevation knobs. It does not have a peep "battle sight".

I have some Winchester brass and RCBS dies. Because of the "stretchiness" of these actions, I want to shoot cast bullets. (I have all of the hunting rifles that I need). Just want a fun gun to plink with.

Anyway, has anyone had experience with getting decent (1-2") accuracy at 100 yards with this type of rifle? What loads, boolits, powder are best in the .303 British? I did notice the Sticky on this cartridge.....however, just want to see what others have come up with.

Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[dromia]

"stretchiness" of these actions. ???

I am assuming that it is a No4 MK2 that you have. These were the best made No4s and .313" doesn't sound wrong for groove diameter on one of theese, I'd size boolits to .315".

These actions shoot full stoke .303" and 7.62 Nato no problem.

The Enfield action was designed as weapons system around the .303" cartridge, when it was concieved and created hand loading and other calibres were never considered. It was made for the .303" and as such it became the best B/A battle rifle in the world.

It has also shot 7.62 NATO rounds with great accuracy and safety after the rounds adoption as a military cartridge with many being coverted for Service "A" and "B" competitions.

Two inch cast boolit groups should be easliy obtainable with good boolit fit.

The Lyman 314299 is the reference of the shelf boolit but you will need to slug your bore and get a throat lead cast to know exactly will fit your rifle well.

NOE are also running 314299 variant at present, don't know if its too late to get in on this or not.

The reference article for this is Ed Harris's Cast Bullet Loads in Military Rifles stickied at the top on the page here:

Cast Bullet Loads in Military Rifles (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425)

[Stoats]

The 160 grain Lee 312 unsized pushed by 6.4 grains of bull's-eye-equivalent gets me to the 2 minutes of angle mark even though it is enormously undersized in my 318 barrel...

if I try to push it faster than that (1100 ft./s) though the accuracy drops off enormously.

In the New Year I will be trying some bullets at .320, and maybe paper-patched Lyman 314299's at the same diameter.

[higgins]

I've been reloading for more than one Enfield for a few years now. I'm convinced that the case life situation is caused more by variations in chamber dimensions - not headspace - than by any stretchiness of the action. Since you are loading for one rifle, you can neck size and solve the problem. For most loads, I prefer not to segregatre cases for each rifle. I size cases so that there is the slightest resistance on closing the bolt on the tightest chambered rifle. With moderate loads case life is pretty good, even better in the tighter chambered rifle. I can't offer any suggestions for cast loads, but 3031 and 4895 have worked well with my moderate jacketed loads. I believe you'll find that a good Enfield is a joy to shoot.

[KCSO]

First off the rifle... I think Dromia had it right as ther eis no Enfield #2 Target. The rear sights should either be a flip up peep or a ladder adjustable peep. If you disassemble the rifle and find galss or plasticine bedding you may have a rifle that was tunned for target shooting. You might want to go to 303 British.com and see what you have and soak up some tips there.

As to loads... Use as big a bullet as you can fit in the throat 315 minimum. Powders that have worked well for me have been 12.0 of Red dot and a 200 grian bullet of 10.0 of Unique. 16 grains of 2400 is a good one to try and for full power loads IMR 4895 will push a 200 grain bullet to 2000 fps with good accuracy.

Accuracy willl be determined by your particular rifle and how it is or isn't bedded. A miliitary standard 303 will on average shoot into 2.5 " with irons at 100 yards and with proper bedding and a little tweaking you can almost cut those groups in half. My old match rifle with Parker hale peeps would shade an inch at 100 yards if I did my part. My faux sniper witha Lyman 330 scope would shoot 1 1/2" with good cast loads.

[doubs43]

When I was shooting a lot of Enfields, I used a 165 grain gas check bullet and 21.5 grains of AA-1680. It was a good and accurate load in the .303.

[bearmn56]

Seems I caused some confusion about what this rifle is. So, here is what is on the left side of the receiver:

No 4 MK 2 (F)
9/53 PF 364XXX

The trigger pull according to my RCBS trigger pull gage is 5 1/2lbs. It is the military two stage.

I found some 7.62 x 54R cast loads in my shop from a Type 44 Carbine project and pulled them down. The bullets were .314" and around 200gr. I put these bullets in .303 B new Win cases ahead of 12.0 gr Unique...large rifle primer. I shot these on my 25 yard range at my house. The smallest group was 9/16" and the largest a little under 1". I am out of bullets right now. However, I may have some more 7.62 x 54R cast bullet stuff buried in the shop. If I can find it, I will pull the bullets and do more loading..weather permitting.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[Bob S]

I'd be very, very surprised if the groove diameter is less than .314. I have the proper 108 degree vee anvil micrometer; if you send me a slug, I'd be happy to mike it for you.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[docone31]

Paper patch to .314, and watch the results.
Simple, effective, and great case life.

[BruceB]

"No 4 MK 2 (F)
9/53 PF 364XXX"

Yep, this is Rifle, Number 4 Mark 2 (Fazakerly)
Manufactured September 1953, serial number PF364XXX.

Fazakerly is one of the British armories. My own as-new Fazakerly #4 is marked almost the same, with date of manufacture being 1955 and the code for the Ulster (Irish) contract "UF" and serial number A22XXX.

The Mark 2 Rifle has the trigger attached to the action body. Mark 1 rifles had the trigger as part of the floorplate/trigger-guard assembly, and of course, a Mark1/2 is a Mark 1 which has been modified to the Mark 2 trigger configuration.

These post-war rifles clearly demonstrate the benefits of having ample time to build them RIGHT, as opposed to hurry-up wartime manufacturing.

Wonderful rifles.

[Nora]

I've also got one that was made real close to yours. Mine is a 9/53 PF 362XXX. They defiantly are nice shooters. Using the same method as you did to find the bore size, mine came in at .312. It seems to like the NEI 316-165 sized to .314 with a GC over 12 gn of Unique. In my hands it will consistanly hover 2" @ 100 yrds. One of my uncles, same load, same rifle is a able to do sub MOA with it.

Nora

[beemer]

I use the Lee-312-185-1R, it cast right at .314. I run through a .314 just to crimp the check. My favorite load is 20 grs. of IMR 4198 and a little tuft of dacron. Paper patch also does very well with close to full charges.

I treat the cases as if they are rimless, headspace off the shoulder or neck size. I still stay away from full charges when shooting J words, things last longer and the last deer I shot didn't seem to know the difference.

It sounds like your rifle had aftermarket rear sights.

The No4 Mk 2 was introduced in 3/31/1949, mine was made in 9/49.

Dave

[bearmn56]

Some of the posters had questions about the sights on this rifle. The front is a blade. The rear appears to be a modified military sight, with what appears to be a Hadley (sp) disc allowing one to turn it to get different sized aperatures.
In any case, I took some pictures as best I was able using a camera on my PC.
Maybe others can shed some light on this rear sight.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[45nut]

I found some 7.62 x 54R cast loads in my shop from a Type 44 Carbine project and pulled them down. The bullets were .314" and around 200gr. I put these bullets in .303 B new Win cases ahead of 12.0 gr Unique...large rifle primer. I shot these on my 25 yard range at my house. The smallest group was 9/16" and the largest a little under 1". I am out of bullets right now. However, I may have some more 7.62 x 54R cast bullet stuff buried in the shop. If I can find it, I will pull the bullets and do more loading..weather permitting.
Bearmn56

I'd say you have a fine rifle and are well on your way to Enfield bliss, continue and please,, post pics of the gun too!

[BruceB]

This sight looks to me to be a Parker or Parker-Hale Model 4, and it significantly increases the value of your rifle.

The Model 4 is intended to offer the target shooter a repeatable windage adjustment in the rear sight, without going to the considerably more-expensive Model 5C sight.

I'd think that a Model 4 all by itself (no rifle) would sell for well over $100 at auction. The 5C such as I have on "Miz Liz" costs a good bit more, but really doesn't offer much more utility except to pure match-shooters.

The Hadley-style eyepiece with graduated-size apertures sees wide use in target-shooting, as does the iris-style aperture that I have on my 5C sight.

To see the various models, and to compare your sight with the illustrations and instructions, just google "parker hale sights".

[bearmn56]

Ok....45NUT..I took some pictures of the rifle.....again with the relatively low resolution PC camera...PLUS....I am not a photographer...;) For what they are worth...

[45nut]

Looks like a winner. some rifles just have a built in cool. All the Enfields do for me.

[Nora]

This sight looks to me to be a Parker or Parker-Hale Model 4, and it significantly increases the value of your rifle.


I'm going to respectfully disagree. The P-H 4 had the adjustment for the windage mounted to the sight it's self to move only the aperture http://www.rifleman.org.uk/PH_Service_sights.htm His has the windage adjusting the hole sight. It appears to me to be a very well modified original sight . In all respects, less the windage knob and large aperture, is identical to mine which is bone stock. To include the "F CR403" stamp on the top of the sight in picture #3.

Nora

[dromia]

Nora is right it is not a standard AJ or AG Parker sight, its hard to see from the photos but the windage adjustment parts could be from a Parker Ross sight or bespoke.

How much travel is there on the windage adjustment and does it have "clicks"?

[Crash_Corrigan]

I am drooling for that rifle. I have a Longbranch No4 Mk I with the ladder peep sights. It is so cool. Having a adjustment for windage would really be outstanding.

I load a 311284 sized down to .308. Then I wrap it with computer paper in a cigarette roller and very wet. Dried overnight and lubed with a dab of JPW and sized .314 it is pretty neat to shoot and accurate to boot.

I neck size only and open the case mouth prior to seating the boolit with the pair of long nosed pliers and then a Lee FCD. Works for me.


Great rifles and we get to shoot a piece of history.

[curator]

SARCO sold these as Parker Hale sights for the Lee Enfield a few years ago. They required minor modifications to the rear sight pivot screw hole and drilling a small detent in the right side of the receiver for the windage screw "clicks." Except for the permanent modifications to an otherwise collectible firearm, they are an improvement over the basic ladder sight. These No4 Mk2 rilfes mostly saw little service and are great shooters. Enjoy!

[Bret4207]

My #4 is very similar to that one photographed, but without the sight disc and with much darker wood. Mine has mostly been used with jacketed and groups around 2" with surplus ammo. The little cast shooting I;ve done has been with a GB Fat 30 and a GB Buckshot .314 IIRC. Nothing great in the accuracy dept- around 2" at 50-60 yards- but I believe I have fouling remaining in the barrel. If yours is clean you have the advantage already.

Nice rifle!

[bearmn56]

I have gone through all of the posts in this thread looking at the load data. I like the idea of an oversized heavier bore riding bullet in the .303...especially since the actual groove diameter may be larger than my crude measurements indicate. I contacted my friend Vern Anderson at Glenhills Cast Bullets. He has the Lyman 314299 sized to .314. He also offers this bullet "as cast" which he thinks is around .315" as the sides are barely touched when sized and lubed to .314". He also has, on special order, the NEI 85A .316 200GC. So, I ordered 300 of the NEI .316 200 GC sized to .316 lubed and GCd. (these bullets will also work in my Russian Type 44 Carbine in 7.62x54R). I also ordered 100 314299 "as cast". I also have a Loverin/Lyman 316475 that drops a 164gr bullet GCd and lubed. The "as cast" diameter is around .318". I also have a .316 sizer for my lubrisizer. In addition, I have a Lyman 311414 that drops a spitzer bullet that is surprisingly oversized and can be sized to .314-315" at 155gr. This bullet looks like a .30 cal, 150gr ball M2 bullet in lead. A friend has my Lee 312 185 mould that I have not tried to cast with yet. In any case, I am going to try them all and let the results be my guide as to which mould I will buy. Lots of stuff to play with!!!!![smilie=l:
Oh...one other thing...I checked the inside diameter of the neck of a case fired in this rifle...it measures .320" so I have plenty of room to play with the larger bullet diameters.

Bearmn56
Montana Territory

[Multigunner]

The No.1 Enfield receiver stretches and springs back to shape with every shot fired, theres no doubt about this and the front sight is offset to the left specifically to compensate for the bullet drill or throw resulting from this action body flex.
Heavier barrels tame this throw down a bit and the No.4 doesn't spring quiet as much, but its a feature of the action the designers and manufacturers were well aware of.

The recent NRA warnings about using 7.62 NATO ammo with bullets of over 144 grains is based on scientific testing by the Brimingham Proof House and Radway Green among others. I'd take heed of such warnings.

Use ammo a gun was expected to digest on a regular basis and the rifle will last longer.


I haven't tried cast bullets with the .303 yet but intend to do so this spring.

I have plenty of H4895 and IMR 4320 for my jacketed bullet full power loads, is either of these useable for a cast 185 gr gas check bullet load?
I've used 4198 for light loads with the 8mm years ago, and saw some at the shop recently. Local stores don't stock much handloading supplies so I have to use whats available.

With the Enfield pattern narrow deep grooves what velocity levels should I stay below to avoid stripping the bullet?


PS
I have a PH5A for my No.1 but haven't mounted it yet. It has the six position sunshade with various size apetures.

[Bret4207]

Multigunner- every action stretches and springs a bit when fired. The LE is not alone in that regard. Any rear locking action will exhibit a bit more stretch than a front locking action. That's not good or bad, just different. This popular notion that the LE rifles are somehow inferior because of this baffles me. Any reloader worthy of his primers can easily work around any particulars his platform presents him.

Perhaps I'm misreading your post but I'm left with the impression you consider the LE to be sub par. My apologies if I am mistaken.

[Multigunner]

Multigunner- every action stretches and springs a bit when fired. The LE is not alone in that regard. Any rear locking action will exhibit a bit more stretch than a front locking action. That's not good or bad, just different. This popular notion that the LE rifles are somehow inferior because of this baffles me. Any reloader worthy of his primers can easily work around any particulars his platform presents him.

Perhaps I'm misreading your post but I'm left with the impression you consider the LE to be sub par. My apologies if I am mistaken.

You're mistaken, otherwise I wouldn't own Enfields, and certainly wouldn't have ordered a PH5A all the way from South Africa to explore the ultimate accuracy of the SMLE. The facts are that despite often superior metalurgy the Enfield is not as strong as a front locking action, so care should be taken to not over stress the receiver or bolt by repeatedly subjecting it to pressures higher than those recommended for it.

The SMLE and earlier LE rifles have the notably offset front sight for good reasons. The open right side of the action and the sturdy lefthand sidewall allow the action to stretch more on the right side than on the left. Counterintuitively the left sidewall is more likely to fracture than the right rail.
If the rifle has not been subjected to excessive pressures it can soldier on for another century, but in the 60's I looked through stacks and barrels full of wrecked SMLE actions and saw what must have been the effects of third world users substituting the Mk8z long range MG cartridge for the MkVII infantry ball.
In recent years surplus .303 ammo has included long range MG and LMG ammo not meant for the rifle, and indistinguishable from Infantry ball due to these seldom if ever bearing a headstamp that indictated its intended use.

The Winchester Lever Actions have had much the same problem due to a rear lock up. Attempts to develop higher velocity cartridges and strenghten the receivers have had mixed results.

The front locking actions don't really stretch, there is a bit of compression of lugs and locking recesses with resulting spring back, the better the lug is mated to its seat the less the effect. The effect is also equal on each side due to opposed lugs and short massive receiver ring.
Theres a certain amount of "bullet drill" with any rifled firearm, a gyroscopic effect related to spin of the projectile. The Enfield has the added effect of the horizontal whip of the barrel due to the action stretching more on one side than the other.
The gyroscopic drill is to the left due to the lefthand twist, and the bullet throw is also to the left, so the front sight base is offset to the left to compensate. No other rifle I've seen has this much offset.
Action body stretch is an undeniable fact, one recognized from the very begining by the designers of both rifle and the .303 cartridge.
Also the amount of offset was found insufficent when the rifle was first used in tropical climes. Heat affected the pressure and velocity of ammunition so sights were modified to give more offset. An alternate rear sight with the notch offset to the right was used as a stop gap.
I've noted that lighter loads usually printed far to the right, but this may not always be the case, it depends on at what point during the barrel whip or recovery that the bullet leaves the muzzle.
First thing I did when restoring my most recent No.1 was to obtain a replacement MkIII windage adjustable rear sight to replace the disabled adjustable sight that came with it. It will be a lot easier to work up lighter loads that stay on paper with a windage adjustment, and no need to drift the front sight.

[bearmn56]

Just thought I would post a little follow up on this fine Christmas Eve. Had an unusual thing happen. Was at a local gunsmiths shop and got to talk to the previous owner of my Lee Enfield No 4 Mk2!!! This man had apparently bought about one dozen of these rifles years ago. Some of which were unissued!! At the same time, he bought some Parker Hale sights of various kinds from another source. My particular rifle had the Parker Hale target sight installed by a local well known gunsmith. The previous owner of my rifle is now in his 70s and sold several of these rifles to a local sporting goods store.....and I bought this rifle from them.
Shooting the rifle.... Had some bullets on hand from a 7.62 x 54R project. I also have a cute little German single shot that shoots a .314-.315" bullets. I tried some of these with mixed results and some leading. Following Lymans suggestion to remove all copper fouling, I used some Montana Extreme 50 BMG copper remover. Wow, what a bunch of fouling!!! After several application of the BMG, the bore showed no more copper fouling. Shot the rifle again.......groups much, much better and no leading. I have a 25 yard range here at my house that I use for initial load testing. The 314299 bullet ahead of 24gr H4198 gave me under 3/8" at 25 yds. Also, I have a Lyman 311414 mould that throws an oversized bullet. Sized to .314" this bullet ahead of 25gr of H4198 also gave under 1/2" groups at 25 yds. This bullet looks like a GCd .30 cal 150gr bullet from Garand ammo. Am still waiting for the NEI 85As that I ordered from Vern Anderson at Glenn Hills Cast Bullets. I am low on .30cal cast bullets right now and with temps here in Montana often hovering near zero degrees (or below) farenheight, I just haven't got up the gumption to go out and try to cast in my little unheated casting shed.
Will post more later on shooting this rifle as the Montana weather permits.
Bearmn56
Montana Territory
Winter of 2009-2010[smilie=l:

[leadman]

I was reading P.O. Ackleys handbook about him testing different military actions to destruction.
The bolt in the Lee Enfield actually bent enough to come out of the front of the action! The bolt stayed in the action, so I suppose if someone were to fire load equal to his grossly overcharged ones, the shooter would probably survive.

[DanM]

Mine is a 1950 dated Fazarkley, and yes it is a great shooter. A lot of good info given already. Let me just warn you about the Lyman 314299 molds. They seem now to run small. I had to "double beagle" mine that I bought last summer just to get it to .314". Sent it back to Lyman twice with no improvment. I shoot a lot more of the Lee 180 boolit than the Lyman. You might try R7 with cast. Mine holds good accuracy with 26grs R7 under the Lee180 cast very hard. That gives me about 1900fps. Considering the undersize mold problems Lyman seems to be having, you might be better off with the NOE group buy mold....

[Multigunner]

I was reading P.O. Ackleys handbook about him testing different military actions to destruction.
The bolt in the Lee Enfield actually bent enough to come out of the front of the action! The bolt stayed in the action, so I suppose if someone were to fire load equal to his grossly overcharged ones, the shooter would probably survive.
Disasterous blow outs of Lee Enfield type actions usually result in the bolthead either snaping off or shattering with chunks of bolthead and the extractor flying out at lethal velocities.
Injury or death as often as not was to spectators or others on the firing line rather than the shooter himself.

I'd seen it claimed that there were no recorded instances of a LE action failing with issue ammunition, this turned out to be untrue.
I found numerous recorded failures of Lee Enfield actions in the records of the Canadian House of Commons and the British Parlement, and in literature of the pre WW1 era.
Occasionally the records say the bolt blew out, but give little detail. If the bolt body remained intact it should remain in the action body, but some records of injury to the shooters right hand indicate this may not have always been the case.

According to recognized authorities shooting the No.1 MkIII rifle in wet weather could result in a fracture of the left side of the action body.
According to Reynolds experiments on firing wet or oily cartridges suggested that incompressible fluids would be pushed into the throat on ignition raising the chamber pressure, while oiled cases can't grip the wall of the chamber to soften the rearward thrust on the bolt face.
Since military ammunition used a staked in primer there was no cushioning effect from residual pressure in the primer pocket, as we'd find with commercial or handloaded ammo where the primer is not staked in place.

A mythology has been built up around the Enfield. One dangerous claim was that it could safely fire muddy ammunition, and operate safely with mud in the action.
The Regulations for Musketry of WW1 mentions early on in the text that thousands of rifles had been rendered unserviceable by mud getting into the action or muddy ammunition being used. Instructions are given on cleaning ammunition and wiping it down with an oiled rag to prevent mud from clinging to it. The amount of oil used was small and allowed to dry to the touch before use.

So long as one keeps his Enfield clean and uses only quality ammunition he should have no concerns. The action is not intended for high pressure cartridges, and theres no reason to push its limitations.
I would not use the highest pressure .30/06 loads in a Winchester 1895 rifle, and would not use the highest pressure 7.62 or .308 loads in a Converted No.4 rifle any more than in a converted 1895 Chilean Mauser.

From the Winter edition of the UK NRA Journal


7.62/.308 Enfield Conversion Safety Alert
Further consideration is being given to any potential
safety issues concerning the use of .308 Win (7.62mm
x 51) factory ammunition in 7.62mm conversions of
Enfield No 4 rifles. Discussions are ongoing with the
UK Proof Authorities over a joint statement which
will be published as soon as it is available on the NRA
website and in the Journal. Pending that statement, the
Association must apply the precautionary principle,
thus the following advice remains extant:
A basic principle of Firearm Safety is that the
individual is wholly responsible for the safety
of the firearm/ammunition combination he
proposes to use. However, in competitions
where ammunition is “as issued” the NRA has
a duty to ensure that the ammunition it issues
does not create a hazard.
The Enfield No 4 action and its derivatives
were originally designed for use with the .303”
cartridge which has a lower maximum cartridge
pressure than the .308 cartridge. The actions
were produced in huge numbers by several
factories to varying standards.
These conversions are not all “factory”
conversions as barrels of many different makes
with varying internal dimensions have also been
fitted to a number of such actions over the years.
Additionally the history of the usage of most
of these actions is not traceable. There is some
evidence of failures of these converted actions
after prolonged use which is exacerbated by the
use of cartridges contaminated by wet weather
or oil.
As the NRA is now supplying ammunition
manufactured especially to its requirement, they
are no longer prepared to allow the use of these
conversions in events where the ammunition
is provided. Nor do they condone the use of
this particular ammunition in these rifles at
any time.
What the shooter chooses to fire through their
rifle upon other occasions is of course entirely
at their own risk and liability.

Previous safety warnings indicate that the converted No.4 rifles, if re proofed to 20 long tons , are safe enough with NATO standard infantry ball with bullets in the 144 to 150 gr class.

Looking into the British Police Envoy rifle I found that the Police had originally been given surplus L42 sniper rifles but on testing these they found them to be dangerously degraded and unsafe to fire. The British Army apparently dumped their worn out L42 rifles onto the Civilian Police.

Since the Radway Green 144 gr ball the L42 was originally intended to use has begun to dry up and some owners of converted No.4 rifles have been experimenting with more powerful modern long range match loads the NRA has had to reissue this warning repeatedly.