Looking for a BP cartridge revolver

[pittbull46]

Looking for a BP cartridge revolver replica any suggestions on model and where to find them would be appreciated Thanks

[McLintock]

Most any single action cartridge revolver will work, Colt or Remington clones are used the most, but even Rugers will work good if you follow a few simple rules dictated by black powder fouling requirements. Get a good BP lube and bullet that holds enough lube to keep everything soft. Then you need increased clearances in the barrel/cylinder gap area and a good BP champher on the front edge of the cylinder doesn't hurt; this is where fouling tends to build up the most. A revolver that shoots only jacketed bullets can use a barrel/cyliner gap of .002-4", and lead with smokeless powders maybe .004-8", but a BP only gun can use .008-12". Also, a little extra end shake in a BP only gun doesn't hurt at all, the fouling can really build up quick. I use 3 screw Rugers with all the above and can shoot a 2 day match without cleaning them, except for a squirt of ballistol the second morning. Go over to the SASSnet.com site and there's usually lots of suitable candidates for sell.
McLintock

[Bucks Owin]

A Ruger Vaquero in .45 LC would be my pick, finish of your choice....Dennis

[lathesmith]

I like Stainless for BP revolvers; I know it ain't very "traditional", but polished up it looks a lot like nickel, and takes some of the worry about corrosion out of the picture.

lathesmith

[Dale53]

My personal Black Powder Cartridge revolver is a Bisley Vaquero 5½". Mine will fire 75 rounds in most weather conditions before cylinder binding indicates cleaning. It shoots under 2" at 25 yards with black powder until it binds.

I use the Lyman 452664 bullet (it has a large grease groove) sized .452" and use Emmert's home mix lube. The alloy is 30/1 lead/tin. I prefer 2F powder. Elephant black powder has the least velocity and recoil but is no longer manufactured. Swiss is the velocity champ (and heavy recoil). Swiss 3F will give nearly 1000 fps in a long barreled revolver. Goex is between the power of Elephant and Swiss.

I fill the case to the point it is compressed 1/16" by seating the bullet.

My Bisley Vaquero, straight out of the box, shoots the the point of aim at 25 yard with the above loads. My best performance with this revolver was a 92/100 at fifty yards (had to hold high, of course) on the NRA Slow fire target at Friendship, IN matches. I had a particularly good day there as I won 7x8 matches.

YMMV
Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Not meaning to go "far afield" here, but it has always seemed to me that 45 Colt, 44-40, and 32-20 WCF revolvers and rifles worked a lot better ballistically with black powder than with black powder-level smokeless loads. My guess would be that the calibers were originally optimized for use with The Holy Black, and I definitely feel that something got lost in translation when smokeless duplicators came about.

What say the folks with LOTS more experience using The Original Fuel in wheelguns? My experience is about enough to be dangerous with.

[Mk42gunner]

...What say the folks with LOTS more experience using The Original Fuel in wheelguns? My experience is about enough to be dangerous with.

Me too Al.

I have shot a several replica Colts, and I like the looks of the 1872 Colt open top revolvers.

Robert.

[McLintock]

Yeah, the open tops are a good choice if you're only going to shoot BP in them, but if any smokeless is comptenplated, you have to treat them like Trapdoors, really light loads. Another possibility is a Cap and Ball with conversion cylinder, and the Ruger Old Army, even though they're not making it anymore is a good choice, there's lots of them around.
McLintock

[Dale53]

Al;
I would like to respectfully disagree with you. My .45 Colt Ruger Bisley Vaquero 5½" works well with smokeless "factory level" loads.

However, I will agree with you on one thing, the .45 Colt Black Powder load at full tilt is a SERIOUS handgun, indeed. The use of it over a period of time in many matches (not Cowboy, but Silhouette and NRA Score matches) really opened my eyes to the serious performance level of BP loads. I have shot it quite a bit with Elephant (no longer available), Goex, and Swiss in two different granulations (2f and 3F) as well as Pyrodex Pistol has given me great respect for this BP cartridge.

I have pretty much quit hunting deer as I am getting too old to drag a deer out of the woods. Otherwise, my next deer would be taken with the BP .45 Colt - THAT'S how much I think of this load.

Dale53

[August]

I shoot a brace of USFA Single Action models that I purchased from Longhunter Shooting Supply. They are the best handguns of any type I've ever owned. They are in caliber 38-40. Jim has set them up so perfectly that I do not get any (zero) lead splash on the cylinder faces when shooting them. I've fired them thousands of times now and they are like brand new mechanically -- lots of holster wear, but no mechanical wear.

These are absolutely the best replica pistols available. And, the 38-40 is a wonderful black powder cartridge. Anybody who disagrees with those two statements is wrong. Period.

[lathesmith]

These are absolutely the best replica pistols available. And, the 38-40 is a wonderful black powder cartridge. Anybody who disagrees with those two statements is wrong. Period.

Now there's a man who feels strongly about his six-guns! The 38-40 has gotten some bad press over the years, most of it undeserved. Many of the supposed inaccuracy problems could be quickly and easily traced to improper cylinder throat dimensions. When set up properly, it will shoot with the best of them, with either BP or smokeless.

Al, I have to agree with Dale on this one--in a properly dimensioned revolver, any of those cartridges you mentioned are capable of fine performance with either BP or smokeless. Now, it's true, in the 45 Colt especially, when a gun has oversize cylinder throats, like so many older guns seem to have, BP and soft lead have certain characteristics that tend to make it outperform smokeless and hard lead. And remember too, the old ballon head cases would hold more BP than modern 45 Colt brass--making its performance potential even better.

lathesmith

[McLintock]

The USFA's are excellent guns and the high grade ones are better then Colts according to many people who shoot them in CAS. One thing about black powder and rounds like the 44-40, 38-40 and 32-20, is that the necks are much thinner and they have less blowback than straight walled cases like .45 Colt or .44 Special. I noticed this when shooting my set of 3 screw Rugers with both .44 Special and 44-40 cylinders. the Special cases come out very dirty on the outside and the 44-40's are still bright and shiny clean. The Special will hold about 23 grs of KIK 2F and the 44-40's are right at 33 grs, so there's a significant difference in boom when you touch them off. Last match, shooting the 44-40's, I definitely wasn't hearing shouts of "more powder" like I do when I'm shooting the Specials, just lots of coughin' and gaggin', and "come on wind". The down side to the thin walled cases is they're much harder to reload in a progressive press as they're very prone to neck crunching, as Mike Venturino once said, "you can't be ham handed when loading these rounds".
McLintock

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I treat my open top 45 Colt caliber like a 45 Colt. That is what it was designed for. That is what Uberti built it for, That is what the Italian gubmint proofed it for. Do not be fooled by naysayers. Smokeless at recommended full house load levels for the original 45 Colt work just fine in it, and the cases neatly eject without pressure signs. BvT

[pittbull46]

I just found a 44 cal. cap&ball by f.lli pietta 10 1/4 bl. can I get conversion cylinder for them? thanks

[lathesmith]

pittbull, conversion cylinders are available for several piettas, including the 1858 Remingtons, and 1860 Colts. Make sure you get a STEEL framed revolver for a conversion cylinder; don't get a brass framed gun to use with a conversion.

lathesmith

[Mike Venturino]

August: I'm with you on the USFA single actions. They are the absolute best single actions I've ever experienced. I am down to four right now - three .44-40s and one .45 Colt. (And they didn't give them to me so I would write good things about them. I paid for all four.)

MLV

[pittbull46]

Thanks lathesmith the 6 1/4bl is a steel frame the 10 1/4 is brass where do you get the conversions? I may buy both just to shoot the cap&ball

[WARD O]

Serious about a Black Powder revolver? My money went to the Open Top from Uberti.

I now have two, a 5.5" chambered for 44 Colt and a more recent purchase of a 7.5" which is chambered for the 44 Special. One of the best features for the Open Top is that it has a shoulder on the front of the cylinder around the base pin. This shoulder keeps the BP residue off of the base pin and assures longer free movement for the cylinder rotation.

I frequently use 44 Russian brass in my guns and with a 200 grain bullet they seem to shoot just fine. I have also tried some factory equivilent 44 Special loads in the newer gun with good results.

They add a touch of nostalgia to the experience - handsome looking guns too, I might add!

Ward

[lathesmith]

pittbull, I like the Kirst converters, especially for the 58 Remingtons, as I prefer mine with a loading gate. When you also have an ejector rod housing, they function very similar to a standard single-action design. This gives you a true convertable firearm, to be used equally well with either BP or cartridges. You can find more info for these here:

http://www.kirstkonverter.com/

There is a "links" page that takes you to some places that sell these, this should give you all the info you need.

lathesmith

[2ndAmendmentNut]

The easy part is the caliber, 45Colt. As far as the gun I would go with a Ruger or USFA.

[cajun shooter]

I shoot nothing but BP in my shooting. Both fun and CAS matches. August, I too love the USFA revolvers and have two sets to shoot, one in 45 Colt and the other in 44-40.Both sets have been set up to shoot BP by Long Hunter (Jim Finch) I don't have any problems loading the 44-40 and think that if you pay close attention to what you are doing ; the same results will be had. Later David

[Multigunner]

I treat my open top 45 Colt caliber like a 45 Colt. That is what it was designed for. That is what Uberti built it for, That is what the Italian gubmint proofed it for. Do not be fooled by naysayers. Smokeless at recommended full house load levels for the original 45 Colt work just fine in it, and the cases neatly eject without pressure signs. BvT

Speaking of original load levels, weren't the original BP loads for the longer .45 Colt as used in the Peacemaker a higher velocity round than the later standard smokeless powder loads for that cartridge?

BP cartridge arms often shoot better with BP loaded cartridges than with smokeless equivalent due to the BP filling the powder space , and BP's consistency.
Improvements in powders have pretty much negated that earlier advantage.

I remember an article on the late 19th century bottle neck BP rifles cartridges, and that the .40-80 long held the lead over early smokeless powder cartridges at one thousand yards, printing tighter groups.

For many years the only real advantages of Smokeless cartridges were greater penetration of smallbore FMJ bullets and flattened trajectory, the last requiring less precise estimation of range in the field.
The BP rifleman could hit as well or better out to one thousand yards, but he did have to have the range down pat, otherwise it was very easy to overshoot.

Of course at pistol range theres really not that much difference.

I like shooting my .36 Navy replica a lot more than my 9mm, and its a good deal more accurate. I'd considered converting it to cartridge long ago only because a cap blowing off could be trouble.
I had been planing to use a cut down 25-20 case with rim turned down and a .375 bullet rather than the .38 Long Colt used by the modern conversions
Were it not for that I'd as soon carry my Navy .36 as any other handgun, since I know I won't miss with it at any reasonable distance.
For point shooting the long barreled Colts can't be beat.

That plow handle fits every hand with little need for precisely seating it in the hand.

Till I learned the methods used by US Army pistol teams my accuracy with autoloaders was only so-so. Rolling the had into the backstrap, using the middle finger to pull it into the V of thumb and trigger finger, lesser pressure on ring finger and no pressure on the little finger, etc, greatly enhances accuracy with the Browning designed autoloaders.
The Plow handle is far less tricky, the hand does what it needs to without thinking.

A friend left a little Remington 1870 .31 Cartridge conversion here awhile back, asking that I look up the value. It was in pretty good condition considering.
I've been considering buying one of the remington pocket revolvers and doing my own conversion on it.
I already have a Iver johnson .32 S&W safety hammerless, I make my own BP loads for it, so it would be no problem as far as ammo.
Those are tiny but handy little pistols. When a pistol is that small single action makes more sense than double action, shot placement is more important than speed, and achieving a consistent DA pull with such a small grip isn't easy or natural.
The DA only is a bellygun, but the single action Remington can be a decent camp pistol for snakes and such, even for small game with practice.

I'd like to find a source of .32 rimfire in BP loadings. Besides the Remington, another friend has a Rimfire .32 in great condition. Its been awhile so I'm not sure of the maker, probably Forehand & Wadsworth.

Most people don't realize it but a Remington C&B revolver can be reloaded much faster than a peacemaker or most other revolvers if a loaded spare cylinder is carried, nearly as quickly as a swing out cylinder with speed loaders.

I have a spare cylinder for my .36, and its not too difficult to switch out cylinders, but not as easy as with the solid frame Remingtons.

[pittbull46]

Just bought a ASM 1858 with a 12" barrel looks real good.I need to get a good set of screwdrivers before I take it apart. I think I may use it as a C&P it sounds like more fun.