Good case filling powder for .38 Sp?

[JesterGrin_1]

I have TightGroup that works well but I would like a powder that would fill a bit more of the case? I am going to use the Hornady 158Gr XTP/HP and the Lyman 358665.

I looked at some powders and the most filling was the H-4227 with a starting load of 9.OGr up to 10.OGr And the next most filling was the HS-6 at a starting load of 5.7Gr.


And a WILD ? lol. Has anyone used H-110 or W-296 in a .38 Sp?

Thank you for your thoughts. :bigsmyl2:

[Jim]

I've never used it, but the cowboy shooters say that Trail Boss is very bulky and fills well.

[lwknight]

The H-110,296 loads in 38 spl may be somewhere between not worth a flip and dangerous.
If you are going to make 357 magnum powered 38s it will work. It will destroy a standard 38 spl gun. If shot in a 357 magnum, why make such a cartrige that could be loaded into a gun that would injure someone. Instead, just use 357 mag brass.

110,296 is a full case high pressure load powder only. It might can be safely loaded but I doubt that you will have good results.

[Houndog]

5.0gr of Unique fills a 38 Special case up enough that a double charge is imposible and will always cover the flash hole no matter what angle you are shooting at. That has been my go to load for this round under a 158gr boolet for many years. It's a little dirtier than some other powders, but it flat works and is a standard pressure load.

[jdgabbard]

4.0g in my Snubbies with Unique is about as hot as I like to load. I load that under the Lee 158 SWC and trust me, it is plenty hot. In my guns it hurts the palm. And I shoot magnum loads often with no issues in my 65 smith...

[armyrat1970]

The H-110,296 loads in 38 spl may be somewhere between not worth a flip and dangerous.
If you are going to make 357 magnum powered 38s it will work. It will destroy a standard 38 spl gun. If shot in a 357 magnum, why make such a cartrige that could be loaded into a gun that would injure someone. Instead, just use 357 mag brass.

110,296 is a full case high pressure load powder only. It might can be safely loaded but I doubt that you will have good results.

He is talking about a 38spl that you cannot use 357 cases in.

[lwknight]

Exactly and I'm saying that 296/110 has no place in a 38spl and then I for some reason I just had to add, That 296 could be loaded into a 38 spl case to make a 357 magnum short that would be a dangerous thing to have around, especially if it could get into a wrong gun.

[Tazman1602]

5.0gr of Unique fills a 38 Special case up enough that a double charge is imposible and will always cover the flash hole no matter what angle you are shooting at. ..................................

You sure about that Hound? I use 4.7grs for wifes .38spl and I just measured a full case downstairs -- held 13grs of Unique.

I think you *could* double charge a case. I usually put my bench light down near my loading block and visually inspect each just to make sure I haven't done anything stupid...........

Art

[lwknight]

At least if one got double charged , it will be noticeable. Always double check.

[kawalekm]

The H-110,296 loads in 38 spl may be somewhere between not worth a flip and dangerous.
If you are going to make 357 magnum powered 38s it will work. It will destroy a standard 38 spl gun. If shot in a 357 magnum, why make such a cartrige that could be loaded into a gun that would injure someone. Instead, just use 357 mag brass.

110,296 is a full case high pressure load powder only. It might can be safely loaded but I doubt that you will have good results.


Just because you are using H110 or 296 in a 38 special case does NOT automatically mean that it is "high pressure". The Speer #10 manual on my desk right now lists standard and +P 38 special loads shooting their 158 grain bullet with H110 and 296 (standard and +P pressures are 18900CUP and 22400CUP respectively). They also list loads for IMR4227 and 2400. So, it certainly is reasonable to develop a 38 Special load with those powders if you wanted to.

My 38 special load is Blue Dot with Lyman's 358477 bullet. That load more or less fills the case to where the base of the bullet is, without any powder compression.

[Shiloh]

Unique fits the bill. As stated the real slow powders are better suited for .357.
Blue Dot for heavier boolits in .38 Special..

I have used Blue Dot with the Keith 358429. I prefer that boolit in a .357 I also prefer the .357 in place of hot .38. Never really been a hot lot guy.

Shiloh

[runfiverun]

cliff see if you can find some load data for 800-x it's a bulky powder.
and i'd bet about 6-7 grs would bout fill the case. to base of bullet/boolit anyways.
it's a bit slower than unique near the hs-6 speed.

[sargenv]

I still like trail boss. You can't put enough ina 38 spl case to cause any pressure issues. I think 3.5 gr fills the case to the base of the boolit. It is very fluffy, bulky stuff and meters well through my Dillon measure.

[AZ-Stew]

IMR 7625 (gray label) is also a bulky powder. See the Hodgdon Powders web site for load data. I use it in the .41 Magnum for midrange (900 fps) loads. A double load WILL overflow the case. It fills the .41 case to the base of the Lyman 410459 SWC. It's really a shotgun powder that produces high velocity shotshells that have very low pressures. My .41 cases get smoky since they aren't slapped against the chamber walls like a Bullseye load will do, but the empties just fall out of the cylinder. A run through the tumbler takes care of the smoky deposits.

Regards,

Stew

[405]

I still like trail boss. You can't put enough ina 38 spl case to cause any pressure issues. I think 3.5 gr fills the case to the base of the boolit. It is very fluffy, bulky stuff and meters well through my Dillon measure.

Trailboss works especially well in the 38 SPL. Same applies to 38-40, 44 SPL, 44-40 and 45 ACP. I don't use a Dillon but Trailboss is superior in metering accuracy and ease of use in my old turn drum measure.

[686]

why do you want to or need to fill the 38 spl. cast? i have shot 100,000 rds + snd none were full. any powder will fill up the case. LOL

[JesterGrin_1]

Ok Thank You for all of the info.

About W-296 and H-110 I was just asking since I do not have a load manual that will list it for the .38 Sp.

I do use it with great results in the .357 Mag and .44 Mag.

The only powders I have on hand are TightGroup / W-296 H-110 / H-322 / IMR-4350 / IMR-3031 .

So I will have to purchase a powder for these loads in the .38 Sp. As said the TightGroup works great and I feel it is much cleaner than Unique.

The problem is the fact that TightGroup takes up so very little room in the case and really do not wish to weight every charge. So I was looking for a more bulky powder that I can use in my Lee Disc Pro Powder measure on my Lee Classic Cast Turret Press that would meter well and not worry as much about a double or triple charge and that would be easy to view said charge.

With all of the people on this forum that use the Dillon and Hornady Progressive reloaders I would think many shoot the .38 Sp and have a powder they like the best as far as metering with consistant results.

So far Trailboss and HS-6 look like good powders to use? I did try 4227 in .44 Mag and the results were not good and have stuck with the H-110 and W-296 for the .357 Mag and .44 Mag.

I like to shoot .44 Mag and .45-70 out of my Marlin the most but it is expensive not only in Lead useage but also powder and time. So I was looking at the .38 Sp to keep my hand in shooting a bit more. :)

[GrizzLeeBear]

Another approach, instead of worrying about filling the case, use a powder that flows easily thru a measure. I have been having good luck with Win. 231 (or HP-38 if you prefer) in pistol cartridges including .38 special. I load 4.2 gr. with 150 gr. boolits using a Lee Pro Auto disk measure with the .40 cavity. Checking the powder weight every so often you will think your scale is broken because the powder measures so well it weighs right on every time.

[Ekalb2000]

+1 on the 231
I love this in the 9mm. Waiting on my dies to try it in the 38 case. I wounder how well it will do in the 357. Anyone?

[JesterGrin_1]

I will have to say I have not used many powders so pardon the dumb question lol.

So from what I understand here some powders even if the weight is the same in Gr take up more room for a given load?

Say 3.oGr of one powder will take up less room than another powder with the same 3.OGr charge weight?

[awaveritt]

So from what I understand here some powders even if the weight is the same in Gr take up more room for a given load?

This is correct. Different powders of the same weight vary by volume and tend to meter differently.

[partsman]

what about american select they fill it up pretty much.........

[Houndog]

You sure about that Hound? I use 4.7grs for wifes .38spl and I just measured a full case downstairs -- held 13grs of Unique.

I think you *could* double charge a case. I usually put my bench light down near my loading block and visually inspect each just to make sure I haven't done anything stupid...........

Art

I'll DEFINATELY go back and recheck it, but I really don't think you could put 10gr of Unique in the case and seat the boolet on top of it. I'll readily say I DO make mistakes and this just may be one! Thanks for the heads up!

Houndog

[GrizzLeeBear]

So from what I understand here some powders even if the weight is the same in Gr take up more room for a given load?

Say 3.oGr of one powder will take up less room than another powder with the same 3.OGr charge weight?

YES! Look at the directions that came with your autodisk measure. In the powder charts the first column after the powder name shows the VMD (Volume Measuring Density). This is a relative density of the powder. Tightgroup has a VMD of .0847 and Trail Boss has a VMD of .2172. That means that Trail Boss is a MUCH bulkier powder. 3 grains of Trail Boss takes up 2 1/2 times as much space as 3 grains Tightgroup.
Also, many large "flake" powders do not measure well, especially in small charges. Red Dot, 700x, etc. are notorious for "bridging" in small measure cavities because they are large flakes with course edges. However, Trail Boss even though it is large flakes (look like flattened cheerios) seems to measure well in "small" charges. I say "small" charges, because it is so fluffy that it takes quite a bit larger cavity to throw a given charge of TB vs. other powders.
On the other hand, a "ball" powder like Win. 231 (actually a flattened ball) tends to measure very repeatably due to its small size and spherical shape. So, even though it doesn't take up a lot of room in the case, it reduces the chance of a squib on one round (powder bridges and doesn't drop out of the measure) and a double charge on the next round (previous "stuck" charge drops along with the new one) when using a progressive or turret press.
I've used more case filling powders like Clays and Trail Boss with good results, and if the case filling makes you more comfortable, go ahead and use them for a while. As you gain more experience with reloading you can work out your reloading routine to reduce the chances of double charging and then try out finer powders like 231, etc.

[Mk42gunner]

Another vote for Winchester 231, it flows very well through a powder measure.


Of course if you really want to fill the case, you could use the original powder; if I remember correctly it was 21 1/2 grains of FFFg.:kidding:



Robert

[lwknight]

Winchester developed the 296 and with extensive testing learned that 80 percent case capacity is minimal to be safe. Taking that factor into consideration (true or not) you would have a high pressure load.
Of course it can be downloaded but the op wanted to fill the case and in this case it will be a magnum load ina 38.

[35remington]

I gotta point out that Clays is no different than Red Dot, Unique, Herco, 700X or similar when it comes to bridging in the Pro Auto Disk in light charges.

Don't go below 3.5 grains of these powders in the Pro. That eliminates some usage for light loads in the 38.

I might suggest, since I have the Lee Classic Turret as well, that proper technique makes choice of powder less relevant. If you always complete the stroke fully, up or down, the press will index every time and a double charge is not possible.

Titetgroup is one of the densest pistol powders out there, which is a reason it has to be position insensitive.......it takes up so little room in the case with standard charges. It's a fine 38 powder and I've used a fair amount of it.

I can appreciate your concerns, though. If you're truly concerned about double charges and don't intend to look down into the case while it's on the press, and you know you're prone to error (or suspect you might be) then Trail Boss is about the only powder I can think of where a double charge will visibly fill or overflow a case.

[MtGun44]

You really need to LOOK into each case as it comes out of the charging station. I have a
small high intensity desk light which is on an adjustable arm and set it up, and locate my
seat so I can look down into EACH case.

I double charged a case back in about 1982 and do not want to do it again. I was not then
so committed to absolutely looking into each and every single case that runs thru my
Dillons. When running on my single stage press for smaller quantities of ammo than
from the 550Bs, I drop powder in all the cases, then hold them under a strong light and
look at each case in turn to see that the powder levels look the same.

This is a critical item and you can take control of it so as to be safe with the small charge
powders, (I use 3.2 or so (IIRC) of Clays in .38 Spl, and 4.7 TG in .45 ACP - either can
be double charged, and maybe triple in the .38 Spl !) if you work carefully.

You would be very safe with Trail Boss, it is light and fluffy and looks like little Cheerios.
I have not used it, but it is designed to be bulky for this exact reason.

Bill

[happy7]

+1 for trail boss. To me it is the obvious stand out solution for what jester is looking for. Trail Boss works very well in the 38 special and I don't think there is a bulkier powder out there. It was specially designed to be as bulky as possible for filling up cowboy action type cases like 45 colt and 38 special. I have had great accuracy with it in everything I have tried it in from 38 to various 44 to 500 s&w. The 38 special is a difficult case to see the bottom of in a progressive press and trail boss makes it a lot easier to see the powder. My only complaint with Trail Boss is the cost. Because it is so bulky, only 9 ounces fits in a 1 lb can. They charge less for the can, but still more per ounce than many other popular powders, certainly more than titegroup, which is so economical. And as others mentioned, Trail Boss meters VERY well.

[sargenv]

Personally, my powder of choice for 38 spl is Solo 1000, but the question was "which powder fills the case best" and for that, trail boss does it.. I prefer to load Solo 1000. I load it likely to +p since I need to at least make 120 power factor with a 158 gr bullet. That translates to about 750 fps and to make sure I make minor, I usually load it to about 825 fps.

[crabo]

I also really like 231 for 38 Special. It can be used in a lot of different pistol and revolver applications.

[JesterGrin_1]

Thank You one and all.

And do not worry gang I look in every case no matter what powder I use lol. Heck for most I even make a wood dowel that will fit in the case with a mark on it for the powder charge at hand just to make sure.

I guess I will stick with the TightGroup and just look close all of the time lol. I know powders like TightGroup and 231 go a loooooooooong way but it is nice with my other rounds that there is no way to double charge without it spilling over the case.

[armyrat1970]

Thank You one and all.

And do not worry gang I look in every case no matter what powder I use lol. Heck for most I even make a wood dowel that will fit in the case with a mark on it for the powder charge at hand just to make sure.

I guess I will stick with the TightGroup and just look close all of the time lol. I know powders like TightGroup and 231 go a loooooooooong way but it is nice with my other rounds that there is no way to double charge without it spilling over the case.

Why use a dowel? I wouldn't. You drop a dowel into your charged case and it compresses the charge. Sure it may not after handling a little but?

[Cherokee]

Staying with TG is fine and you DO look at every case so that is good. The dowel thing is like the Dillon powder check tool so it works. If you are going for more than target level loads, I suggest HS6 or Unique or Herco.

[JesterGrin_1]

Cherokee OH Yes I know about TightGroup lol. When I started to reload I started with the .44 Mag and TightGroup. I am glad I started at the starting load listed. As I found TightGroup to gain pressure FAST. But I like it for low and med range loads.

My Fav .44 Mag Plinking load and do dispatch game is a 240Gr SWC with 5.5 Gr of TightGroup.

[Mike'em]

Got here a little late but i use 2g of Unique under 180 cast just for fun. I realy dont care that it dosn't fill the case. Just that i can load 3500 with one pound. I have also read a WARNING strait from Hogdon stating that only full power loads be used with 110 powder. I use 110 with all 44 and 357 full power loads and love it. With the 38 i also cut some of my cases down so the powder doesn't have to take up that much room. The FPS is more consistant with the shorter cases. Might help might not???

[sniper]

5.0gr of Unique fills a 38 Special case up enough that a double charge is imposible and will always cover the flash hole no matter what angle you are shooting at. That has been my go to load for this round under a 158gr boolet for many years. It's a little dirtier than some other powders, but it flat works and is a standard pressure load.

I used 5.5gr. Unique in 357 brass, standard primers with 125-162 jacketed, swaged, and cast boolits for years. 860 fps chronoed from a 4" barrel, pleasant to shoot, bulky enough so a double charge is immediately noticeable!
Now,in an attempt to match the famed "FBI, Dade County, RCMP" loads, I use ~ 5.9 gr. I have 2400 and Universal, either one of which works fine, but I keep returning to Unique.

[detox]

I like Bullseye, but does not fill case well. Tin Star fills case well and gives more velocity than Trail Boss.

[Outpost75]

If you want a bulky powder which fills the case, but which also measures well in the Dillon machines for production, use Winchester Super Target, aka WST, using the same charge WEIGHT that you would with Bullseye, but the powder slide setting is different, because it is more "fluffy".

Similarly, Winchester Special Field, aka WSF can be used weight for weight with Unique data, but is bulkier.

These substitutions work OK with NON+P data in. 38 Special and .45 ACP using standard weight soft swaged or cast lubricated lead bullets in the respective calibers.

If your Dillon machine is already set up to throw a safe standard pressure charge of 231 in these calibers, refilling the measure with WST in. 38 Special or. 45 ACP results in a safe wadcutter target load about 10% slower than the same volume of 231.

[jonp]

Another vote for Winchester 231, it flows very well through a powder measure.


Of course if you really want to fill the case, you could use the original powder; if I remember correctly it was 21 1/2 grains of FFFg.:kidding:


:shock:
Robert

I believe it was Swiss not fffg

[jonp]

I use a numberof powders when I load 38sp to use in my 357mag bh. Unique works well for me. Ive talked to some sass guys and they say trailboss is very fluffy so should be what you are looking for if you can find it although I have not used it myself

[Cherokee]

231 is very good in 38 Special with light to heavey bullets. WST is also good, faster burning but more bulk.