A question for SMLE cognisenti

[Char-Gar]

OK..Here is the deal! We all know that the .303 Brit in the SMLE is a booger bear for case seperations in front of the case web. We all know that these chambers are grossly oversized so the natives trooper and others can fill the chambers with debris and still fire the rifles.

We also know that necksizing the fired brass extends the life of the brass way out there. The notion being the shoulder is not set back each time the round is sized after firing.

I know a fellow that uses modified 30-40 Krag brass in his SMLEs because they are larger near the case head and he feels like the case seperations are coming from this area of the oversize chamber.

What say the wise ones of the board. From whence cometh the case seperations in the SMLE .303 Brit? Mike Venturino notwithing standing who says it is the "springy" lockup due to the rear lugs on the bolt.

[Bret4207]

Heard of doing that, never tried it. Personally my 303 Brit brass lasts at least 8-10 firings- with cast. With gilded lead boolits that might change. I think there's another round that makes better use of another rounds brass in its chamber. 38-55 maybe? Thats all I gots.

[BruceB]

From personal observation involving dozens of #4 s and one lonely No. 1 MkIII, there's no doubt that a major case expansion takes place ahead of the web when a factory load is fired. This is usually most-evident on one side of the case, and I suspect (never bothered to check) that it's probably on the side of the case which is uppermost as it lies in the loose chamber.

Using Krag brass, if it is in fact larger at that point, certainly won't harm anything except requiring a bit of work to shorten the case necks. Whether the RADIAL expansion shortens case life is another question. Observed incipient head separations (ain't broke yet, but she's close) usually involve almost the entire circumference of the case in my experience. Thus, I'd be suspicious of a claim that the radial expansion is the culprit.

I operate on the conviction that repeatedly setting-back the shoulder in full-length sizing dies is what eventually thins the case to the point where it comes apart. The same condition is easily created in a rimless round, too. I learned THAT lesson in a hurry, with a 110 Savage in .243, the first bottlenecked round I ever loaded (1967).

Particularly with most cast-bullet .303 ammunition, wherein the pressures are often quite a bit lower than factory levels, I don't see ANY radial expansion ahead of the web. The brass keeps its original dimensions at that point, until I crank up the charge to higher levels. As I think about it now, and only neck-sizing the brass on hand, my .303 cases are showing very nice lifespans.

With SOME cases, I've been able to expand the necks to a larger caliber, then gradually size them back down just barely to a point where a false shoulder is formed, to support the new case in its first firing. The W-W brass I now have won't tolerate such a process, so I've accepted the damage inflicted by the first firing, and make very sure not to set that fireformed shoulder back.

I like ol' MLV, but in this case, he's off-base. The Lee Enfield is not a particularly springy action...it's the loooong, loose chamber that gives the troubles to handloaders.

[45 2.1]

The British generally know what they are doing, and in this case they did. The round started as a blackpowder job used all over the world. They had good reason for what they did. Now, if you want to reload them, fireform the case to the chamber useing new brass AND A LUBRICATED CASE so it doesn't grab the chamber and start the head separation cycle, then don't push the body down or shoulder back. Fireform loads should be a STARTING LOAD sufficient to fireform the case and no more. Clean the lube out of the chamber and off the cases before procedeing with heavier loads.The cases will then last a very long time even at 40,000 psi.

[Bigjohn]

One other trick that some shooters have used but is a PITA to apply is as follows;

Using some 1/8" wide tape, wrap one or so turns around the case body just in front of the rim (just enough so the case centres in the chamber and only for the first firing). Then fireform the case after this is done only necksize the cases.

I can't speak personally for this method as my Mk1 No.3* has a 'H' barrel (or Target Barrel) in it. These chambers were not as large as some.

John.:castmine:

[Char-Gar]

When it comes to radial expansion near the case head and the possible damage it might cause, I reason by analogy from the 6.5 Swede. I have made many cases from 30.06 cases where are smaller at the head. The formed cases are big enough in the top half of the case to be held centered in the Swede chamber.

The fire formed cases do expand at the head to fit the chamber, but once done give excellent service life. I have never considered the possibility that this radial expansion might lead to case seperation.

I have seen lots of bright rings and case seperations ahead of the web due to brass having the shoulder set back a number of time, from improperly adjusted FL size dies.

[JeffinNZ]

I have some difficulty with the "springy bolt due to rear locking" idea. Is the Remington 788 prone to the same head seperations? I have not heard so.

BruceB is right about seperation just into front of the web. I have seen it lots at are monthly shoots with reloaders who are running quite full loads and not checking their brass properly.

Personally I only shoot mild cast loads in my No.4 Mk2 and some of my case must have had going on 50 loads through them. In fact some have done a tour as .303 cast cases and have since been blown out to .38/303 for my BPCR and still going strong.

I believe that with full loads the brass flows forward and radially in those BIG chambers. I am really not sure about the springy bolt thing.

cheers

J

[felix]

ALL rear locking bolts will have enough spring to cause trouble. That's why back in the 50s folks bought the remington 760 pump in preference to the lever gun. Do levers, pumps, or whatevers using a rotary "bolt" lockup still exist? .... felix

[NVcurmudgeon]

Chargar, for more on this subject, go to .303British.com Check out the loading section, there are two articles about full vs partial vs neck sizing.

Y'all, I respect Mike Venturino as one of the few unbought by the industry. But he is way off on the "springy" action. The British anticipated that these rifles would be used all over the world, with wartime ammuntion of uneven quality. They deliberately made the chambers somewhat more commodius than those of contemporary rifles. (Another advantage of the rimmed cartridge.) One only has to remember the tragedy of the precision Ross rifle in WWI. The No.1 Mk III kept on ticking. Also, the British converted some No. 4 rifles to 7.62 NATO.

[Char-Gar]

I don't buy into the notion that ALL actions with rear lugs cause problems. I do realize that most of them do. However it all has to do with the design, the specs, and the tolerances rather than where the lugs are located. I don't think the Remington 788 caused any problems in the regard of being springy. Those multiple rear lugs locked that puppy up like a Dibold safe.

I would not question the assertion that the SMLE might not be as strong as a good mauser. However Venturino's assestion that the case seperations in the SMLE are due to the rear lugs and springy action is something I cannot buy.

The whole issue is related to that whooping big chamber.

I gather from the general run of this thread that most folks think the radial expansion at or near the case head is not the real culprit, but the shoulder is the guilty party.

In either case, I should think that a neck sized case fireformed in the individual rifle chamber should give good service life.

[Bullshop]

Felix
Would that include the Styer SSG and the 788 Rem? I dont notice any difference between them and a front locker for strech at equal pressure.
BIC/BS

[oksmle]

Charger .... Several years ago I purchased ten, new surplus, still in the cosmoline, #1 Mk III barrels for $15.00 apiece. First thing I did was to clean them out & save the best two (smallest diameter & smoothest bores) for my personal rifles. The first one I simply screwed it into the action, finished the rifle & proceeded to shoot cast bullets. The cases were fireformed with a gentle load & were always indexed when loaded. Those cases were probably loaded 50 or more times each with mild loads of 1400 to 1600 fps. The first time I attempted to fire a 200 grain FMJ at 2000 fps the cases showed signs of the typical separation we have come to expect. I pulled the barrel, chucked it up in my lathe & took one full turn off. Then I reseated the barrel & cleaned it up with a finish reamer for as close to a minimum SAMI (not military) headspace as I could get. Since the removal of about 1/10" off the back end of a barrel that is tapered from breech to muzzle caused the rifle barrel to become "free-floated", other problems (bedding) resulted. I won't address them for this discussion. Anyway, after everything was back in order the rifle shot just like any other close tolerance rifle.... I no longer had to be picky as to the loads or velocities shot. Since then I have used all but one of the barrels in building other rifles for folks & I always take a turn off the barrel before installing it into the action. Takes a lot longer to build the rifle this way, but it's worth the effort. I have also used the same method while building #4 Mk 1s & Mk IIs. I still have dedicated brass for each rifle & only neck size (if I size at all) the cases.
I guess what I'm getting at is that I think I agree with your theory as to the problem lying with the overly large chamber & not with the springiness of the bolt. The work I have done on these different rifles didn't affect that springiness at all. (At least not that I could tell). If it was ever there then it still is. There are probably 10 or 12 SMLEs floating around our gun club that I have built from scrap parts in this manner & so far I have had no complaints. And some of these guys don't know to load anything but to military specs.
Sorry. Don't usually talk this much...

oksmle

[Four Fingers of Death]

I tried to post this in a quick reply, but it went haywire, I apoligise in advance if it turns up twice.

Does anybody use the 303 Epps? It is (or was) big in Canada apparently and it cleans up the sloppy chambers.

Another conversion that I saw on that page, which looks good is the 7.62x54 Russian. There are also a lot of guys down here with 30s (303s are called three oh's in Australia) converted to 7.62x39.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shooters/303Page.htm

[KCSO]

I'm a Krag Brass user. I got started on this by an old fellow who showed me the trick in the early 70's. I trim and fire form new Krag brass and then load and neck size only. I didn't worry about wether the problem was radial expansion or bolt spring or what ever. I just saw that this worked good and I could go from 4-5 loads with full leangth resizing to 15 loads with the Krag brass and I stuck to it. As to centering the brass in the chamber, I have had so many 303's with out of round chambers that I have never bothered with centering. The 303's are an affliction to me, they are ugly, cheaply made loose fitedd battle rifles and I love them.

[Bret4207]

I think if we change the word "springy" to th phrase "barreled action harmonics different from a front lugged action" (ain't that a mouthfull!) we'd be more accurate as to the whys of the L/E issues. Apparently this "harmonics" issue added to the accuracy of the British 1000 yard teams, or so went an article I read a few years back. IMHO the whole brasss seperation/weak actioned L/E is a bit overblown. Nothing we reloaders can't handle with judicious loading techniques.

[KCSO]

A few years ago I was invited to build a rifle for the 2300 yard
matches in England. The only requirement was that it would be able to
beat a Lee Enfield. What a joke! Since my rifles held all the 1000 yard
records at the time I felt confident when I told them if I didn't beat
every Enfield on the line they wouldn't have to pay for the rifle. I
should have checked the record book before shooting off my mouth .It
would have saved me a rifle. There is something very unique to the
Enfield that has been explained to me and I still don't understand
exactly what it is. It has to do with the two piece stock and the
harmonics plus the flex of the joint makes every thing come together at
2300 yards. You Lee Enfield lovers check the records of the 2300yard
matches at Bisley. It will lift your spirits so high you will be able
to laugh at us Magnum shooters. Don't ask me how a rifle with a 300 foot
mid range trajectory can consistantly beat out our high scoring Mags.

Gale McMillan

Ya see!!! They do shoot good.

[Bob S]

There is something very unique to the
Enfield that has been explained to me and I still don't understand
exactly what it is. It has to do with the two piece stock and the
harmonics plus the flex of the joint makes every thing come together at
2300 yards. Gale McMillan

Ya see!!! They do shoot good.

It has "favorable compensation". No amount of planning and engineering will ever replace Dumb Luck. They didn't have Finite Element Analysis when the Lee Enfield was developed.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[JeffinNZ]

Negative compensation in Lee Enfiends was explained to me somewhat like the following:

The barrel vibrates in a wave - up, down, up down. The variation in the velocity of the ammunition dicates that the faster rounds exit the barrel earlier and mid range in the wave whereas the slower rounds exit at the top of the wave as the barrel peaks at the top of the vibration. In real terms the faster rounds are shooting a 'flatter' trajectory than the slower rounds though the two are 'parallel' in flight.

Basically this means that at shorter ranges you will end up with some verticle stringing. This is because the slower rounds that got out of the barrel late as the barrel was rising or peaking hit high on the target and the faster rounds which exited early go flatter and lower. HOWEVER as the range increases the trajectories of the individual bullets cross again and the grouping tightens up.

Sounds **** about face but that's apparently how it works.

I have noticed the same effect in shooting HV rimfire and subsonic at 50 meters. Frequently they can be vertually the same POI even though the sub sonic are much slower. Of course this comes down to the harmonics of your barrel.

cheers

J

[Bret4207]

It's stuff like this gentlemen that keeps things interesting!

[Char-Gar]

I hold the opinion that such "favorable compensation" is the product of dumb luck. The Brits are not that smart. If they were they would have invented Cotton Gin and not have the drink the foul stuff they currently drink.

[JeffinNZ]

Oh Chargar is absolutely correct about the dumb luck thing. No one in their right mind would design a target rifle the way a LE is built with a skinny, whippy barrel and bendy action. They are sort of the Bumble Bee of rifles.......[smilie=1:

I would also speculate that any LE that has been worked will not do as I have mentioned. My No. 4 Mk 2 is epoxy bedded and the barrel is pressure pointed at the mid section top and bottom and again at the top at the muzzle and shoots like a house on fire. It shows not signs of the compensation effect though I have yet to shoot it at super long range.

Who'd know with a LE bumble bee ah?

J

[Cliff]

I have seen some interesting comments on the various bolt head used on the military 303's. On the 303.com site one person, would tighten the head space by changing to a longer bolt head, from .01 to .03 or something similar. This extended his case life and did aid the accuracy quite a bit. Of course he did fit the bullet to the rifle and all the other tricks he could work with to do so. It seems the British were very liberal on their issue rifles in regards to head spacing on the rimmed cartridge. If this is tightened up with a different length bolt head it might aid in case life and accuracy. Just a thought.

[Four Fingers of Death]

or not, the Lee Enfields have been used successfully at extreme ranges, long after they hit their use by date. My mate has two old No4s that were used for target work when they were the rifle that was being used in Australia. I have been trying hard to resist the temptation, but you guys are driving me over the edge here.

[Char-Gar]

An Aussie without a SMLE...oh, said it ain't so!

[JeffinNZ]

AAAAHHHH come on 4fingermick.

Let's face it. LE's are ugly, rear locking, have skinny barrels, flexible actions, use a rimmed cartridge, have 'generous' barrel and chamber dimensions that vary greatly, are rated for lower than modern pressures, have 2 piece stocks................shall I go on?

Hell, if you go by what all the 'traditional' literature says about what makes a good rifle they are good for just about nothing. :roll: [smilie=1:

HAHAHAHAHA. Laughing with you, not at you.

cheers

J