We killed a 1911...

[Bullet Magnet]

I think we were noobed.

A buddy and I started casting recently for 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP.

We had great luck at first. We found light loads that would cycle our pistols. I was using 3.3 grains of bullseye for my Beretta 92 with 125 gr. RN cast bullets. I had a little leading but it was manageable.

My buddy was shooting 230 gr RN with 4.1 grains of Bullseye. He had virtually no leading.
We started target shooting and were having a great time when, bang! My buddies Taurus 1911 blew apart. (Ironically he still hit the target...) A case blew and was stuck in the chamber. It blew the handgrips and mag apart and cracked the receiver. He was lucky he was wearing gloves.

We tried to figure out what had happened. It was obviously a pressure issue. We were hand measuring every charge while in this experimental stage so we knew it was not a double charge or the like. The recoil of that round was not noticeably different than any of the others either. We found all of the unfired bullets from the magazine and noticed that the bullets were progressively deeper in the case.

I always crimp everything that I load. My buddy doesn’t. We are reasonably certain that this is the cause.

Has anyone else had a similar issue?

[StarMetal]

By receiver did you mean the frame? or the slide?

Joe

[Bullet Magnet]

Frame.

[StarMetal]

Frame.

Near the slide stop pin hole area?

Joe

[44man]

Shoot HARD boolits to maintain brass tension and CRIMP.
I can't imagine the pressure from those boolits that far down in the brass.

[Dframe]

Pressure can build from bullets being seated too deeply. Most likely caused by recoil and inadequate tension of the brass on the bullet. During fireing the magazine recoils back battering the nose of the bullet and driving it deeper into the case. This is the opposite of what happens with a revolver, where the case recoils away from the bullet. Very glad no one was hurt.

[scrapcan]

The question is did the bullet setback happen before the issue shown above or as a result of the issue above?

How old is the reloaded brass? What has been done to the barrel, has it been changed to feed SWC? It looks like that case blew out just ahead of the extractor groove, anyone recall what orientation the blown case was in the barrel? Was the primer still in the blown case? IF primer stil intact, what does it look like?

It is kind of hard ot know what came first the chicken or the egg. But one thing is for sure, I am glad no one got hurt.

[StarMetal]

To me it appears a normal web blowout. When they blow like that you usually don't feel more recoil, probably due to lots of gas pressure getting dumped quickly through the blowout.

What's that frame made of, looks like aluminum.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

Shoot HARD boolits to maintain brass tension and CRIMP.
I can't imagine the pressure from those boolits that far down in the brass. Scary ain't it?!? Lucky the dude kept all his fingers & eyeballs! [smilie=1:....Dennis

[scrapcan]

It looks like the PT1911ALR, that would be an alloy reciever.

[454PB]

I had a similar experience with a 9mm. I "believe" it was caused by a boolit being shoved further into the case.

In my case, the escaping gas actually cut the noses off of the cast boolit rounds still in the magazine. It blew off the grips, blew the magazine out and disassembled it, blew off the extractor, and planted two pieces of brass in my cheek just below the lenses of my shooting glasses.

Gave me a lot of respect for the pressures of a 9mm.

[Bullet Magnet]

Here is some more information:

Forgive my ignorance with verbiage; the crack is in the top of the mag well opposite the barrel.

The frame looks to be some sort of aluminum alloy.

The barrel is stock. It is supposed to be a match grade barrel. It hasn't been modified.

The primer was blown out and the pocket elongated.

If you were looking at the chamber side of the barrel the blown out area of the case would have been oriented around the 7-8 o'clock position.

The rounds were loaded on a new Hornady LNL. (We measured each charge with a Lyman scale to verify them. We had some initial issues with consistency with the Hornady powder measure.)

The cases are likely on their second or third loading.

I know that everyone says "I am experienced." and "I know what I am doing." But in this category, I think both of us can say it truthfully.
We have each loaded literally 10+ thousand rounds with jacketed rifle and pistol bullets. My buddies and I got into the hobby to make more accurate ammunition for rifles. It also helped control the costs associated with itchy trigger fingers with our hand guns :razz:. We have both been loading for years without issue. (Until now that is... [smilie=b:)
Having said that, we are absolute noobs to the world of cast boolits. We have only begun experimenting with making our own bullets and working up to a load that will actually cycle. I did quite a bit of reading here before buying my own casting set up. The bullets were made with Lee six chamber dies, sorted wheel weight lead, and hardened using water to cool them according to posts here. Our end product has been quite accurate thus far.

And I completely agree with what many of you said. Darn the broken gun, I am just glad that he wasn’t hurt bad. He was wearing gloves but not safety glasses. He got a few very minor cuts to his face but that was it.

[Tazman1602]

I hate to ask but you DID taper crimp those .45's and not roll crimp them, right???

Art

[Bullet Magnet]

He did not crimp them at all. He is used to jacketed bullets that experience showed had plenty of tension/friction between the copper jacket and brass case to prevent movement.

I taper crimp everthing I load be it for a bolt gun, lever, semi auto, whatever.

[wallenba]

Somebody makes a tool that knurls the case midbody to prevent the setback. Anybody know what it is?

[StarMetal]

Somebody makes a tool that knurls the case midbody to prevent the setback. Anybody know what it is?


Not sure but Corbin may have something like that.

Joe

[docone31]

The Lee FCD is also there.
It crimps from a taper to Factory crimp.
I use it on my paper patch loads. Crimps without pinching the paper.
It can be adjusted from none to heavy crimp.

[9.3X62AL]

Corbin Cannelure Tool--designed to put cannelures on bullets, but does well with loaded rounds too. Empty cases tend to not work so well.

[405]

the good news is.... it could have been much, much worse! I got reamed on a thread here not too long ago about being anal on such things as case length, headspace, crimp for these type cartridges/guns [smilie=b:. Oh well "hands on" education is what the new age talks a lot about, eh?

[1874Sharps]

Bullet Magnet,

Very sorry to hear of the mishap and glad that nobody was hurt seriously. If a double charge is ruled out (which can be done with aload of 4.1 grains of Bullseye), it seems to me that bullet setback is the most likely culprit. If the bullet gets pushed back and the volume of the case is significantly reduced, an overpressure condition can occur. You might want to mic your boolits to make sure they are not undersized. If they are properly sized, perhaps the expander ball in the sizing die is a bit oversized and therefore leaving the brass on the large size and not gripping the boolet enough.

Because the 45 ACP (and many other auto pistol cases as well) headspace on the case mouth, care must be taken not to roll crimp the round. Roll crimping can cause excessive headspace which can in turn cause damage to the gun upon firing. If a crimp is needed on such a case, it is by far better to use a Lee Factory Crimp die or a taper crimp die.

[454PB]

It should also be noted that a cast boolit isn't the culprit......the same thing could happen with a jacketed bullet.

[yondering]

The Lee FCD is also there.
It crimps from a taper to Factory crimp.
I use it on my paper patch loads. Crimps without pinching the paper.
It can be adjusted from none to heavy crimp.

FYI, the pistol FCD's are not the same as those for rifle cartridges. The pistol die sizes down the whole case, with the boolit inside! Bad idea for accuracy and neck tension. These are not recommended!
Just use a standard taper crimp die.

[35remington]

The tight fit of the case accounts for the bullet tension. The taper crimp really only turns in the mouth flare and does not do much to hold the bullet in place. If case tension is adequate, the taper crimp is a formality as it address feeding issues and nothing more.

If case tension is poor due to poor bullet fit, no amount of taper crimping will make it right. This gives an idea of the significance of taper crimping in maintaining bullet integrity and position in the case......it's very little help in that area.

[BD]

Gotta love the 1911's. Mostly they dump out the bottom when they come apart. This makes 3 that I know of with no serious injuries.

I've had pretty good luck with the Lee FCD on .45 acp's. I've used it on about the last 50,000 rounds. However, any of Lee's products can vary a bit in size so I'd suggest checking things out closely on a new die before loading a lot of them. Every time I set up the press, or change boolit design, I re-adjust the crimp die and press a few against the edge of the loading bench to see if I can push the boolit back into the case. It's definitely a different setup for cast than it is for jacketed, and you do need to insure that you're not locating the case mouth over a lube groove. Depending a bit on how your mags lips are configured, that boolit nose get's a good smack when it hit's the feed ramp on the way up.
BD

[Bullet Magnet]

454PB,

I don't blame the bullets, I blame a couple of noob cast loader operators. It stands to reason that lead which is a form of lubricant will be slicker against brass when compared to copper. It would therefore be more likely to move with recoil. I should have urged him to crimp as I do. I know that it can affect accuracy in match rifle rounds but that is not what we are dealing with here. Besides, my taper crimped .40 cast bullets performed as well or better than jacketed rounds so I just don't feel that it is a valid concern.

[Ricochet]

I disagree that the Lee Carbide FCD isn't recommended with cast boolits. It sizes down the outside of a case only if the case is bulged larger than the maximum dimensions for the cartridge. It's solved several problems I've had with rounds not chambering with boolits cast too big, but it won't undersize them.

[StarMetal]

Bullet Magnet,

Very sorry to hear of the mishap and glad that nobody was hurt seriously. If a double charge is ruled out (which can be done with aload of 4.1 grains of Bullseye), it seems to me that bullet setback is the most likely culprit. If the bullet gets pushed back and the volume of the case is significantly reduced, an overpressure condition can occur. You might want to mic your boolits to make sure they are not undersized. If they are properly sized, perhaps the expander ball in the sizing die is a bit oversized and therefore leaving the brass on the large size and not gripping the boolet enough.

Because the 45 ACP (and many other auto pistol cases as well) headspace on the case mouth, care must be taken not to roll crimp the round. Roll crimping can cause excessive headspace which can in turn cause damage to the gun upon firing. If a crimp is needed on such a case, it is by far better to use a Lee Factory Crimp die or a taper crimp die.

Technically that is correct information, but in real life it's wrong. The length of the 45 acp case is suppose to be .898 inches. Just like Mike of co and myself have found, there are no cases that long I doubt you will find one either. With that said one of three things help fire the cartridge: the firing pin can protrude quite a distance from the breech face, the extractor will grab and hold the case to some degree, and most likely the bullet touches the leade in or rifling thus spacing it.

Joe

[garandsrus]

Bullet Magnet,

Since you were doing experimental rounds, are you sure that the brass was correctly sized before loading the boolits? I have pulled a number of cast rounds (various calibers) with a kinetic bullet puller and the case tension has always held the boolit more firmly than I expected it to.

I don't understand why the boolits in the magazine would be "pushed" to different lengths since they each went through the same number of cycles. My only guess is that the difference in the distance from the round to the barrel caused more momentum in the recoil cycle for the rounds closest to the barrel. For the bullets to have moved that much, it sure doesn't look like there is much case tension. My understanding is that almost all the tension comes from resizing, not crimping, especially with a taper crimp.

I vote for either too small a boolit or improperly sized cases.

John

[Dale53]

I have more than a little experience in loading the .45 ACP in the 1911 platform.

Over a five year period, when I shot IPSC, I shot 75,000 rounds of .45 ACP alone. Now, that in itself doesn't say a LOT (the pros were shooting 50,000 rounds per year) but I cast my own bullets and loaded my own ammo - they did not:mrgreen:

I also "hung around" with some of the best shooters and gunsmiths in the world.
Nearly ALL of my loads were my cast bullets (except where we were required by match regulations to shoot factory hard ball).

First of all, you need to use cases with proper neck thickness. My favorite loads were military cases (it was necessary to swage the primer pockets). I quit using Remington brass because it was too thin to get adequate neck tension.

Regardless of neck tension, you need a good crimp to help keep from deep seating bullets. Taper crimping to a "case mouth edge" of .470" is adequate and will not damage the bullet (which could lead to accuracy limitations). The proper amount of taper crimp presses the case mouth into the side of the cast bullet which helps a LOT to keep from deep seating the bullet (normally caused when the bullet nose strikes the feed ramp when feeding).

I use the barrel to determine seating depth of my cast bullets. I headspace on the bullet. Using the barrel chamber as a gauge, I seat the bullet until it'll drop in with the case head flush with the barrel hood. This gives the shooter consistent ignition. As has been stated, I have NEVER found a .45 ACP case that met minimum lengths. I have always believed that consistent headspace is a POSITIVE thing for good, consistent igition (which is an aid to accuracy). Headspacing on the bullet gives you this. Understand, this is with CAST bullets. Jacketed bullets require a bit more room as they are, in effect, non-compressible and a slightly long round MIGHT not allow the slide to completely close - with cast bullets, it'll just seat the bullet into the lead without problems.

Contrary to popular superstition, you CAN successfully roll crimp bullets in the .45 ACP (NRA Handloaders Guide, page 248 ".45 ACP Handload Accuracy" by the great pistolsmith, Alton Dinan).

I would like to make one final observation. The magazine shows a deep seated bullet BEFORE (presumably) the round attempted to feed. This tells me that the brass is entirely TOO thin and/or the bullet is too small in diameter.

FWIW, I size my bullets to .452", and as above prefer military brass for the case wall thickness for good bullet tension. Remington brass was scrupulously removed as with my particular die set (and most of my shooting buddies) it was not possible to get proper case neck tension to go along with a good taper crimp to avoid this particular issue (deep seating).

A really "good read" for these problems and avoidance of same can be had by taking a look at another NRA book, "Handloading". M.D. Waite, on page 108 "Handloading the .45 ACP" illustrates the proper amount of crimp and WHY it helps (and is necessary) to eliminate "deep seating". It is a shame this book is "out of print". If you get a chance to pick up a copy, I recommend it.

Dale53

[Rico1950]

Bullet Magnet,
First off, glad no one was seriously injured.
You didn't say whether your buddy expanded the case mouths before seating. If he did and did not size the case back to .470", that may have created less tension.
If he did not bell the case mouth before seating, he probably shaved the bullet during seating and reduced the diameter of the bullet, causing less tension.

[KYCaster]

Technically that is correct information, but in real life it's wrong. The length of the 45 acp case is suppose to be .898 inches. Just like Mike of co and myself have found, there are no cases that long I doubt you will find one either. With that said one of three things help fire the cartridge: the firing pin can protrude quite a distance from the breech face, the extractor will grab and hold the case to some degree, and most likely the bullet touches the leade in or rifling thus spacing it.

Joe


:groner: Aaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhh!!!! Twice in less than a week I agree with Joe.

I just measured 50 cases. Longest was .893, shortest was .879, book says trim to .898. Rifle shooters would cringe if you told them you have -.019 headspace. Forget what the book says about headspacing straight wall auto pistol rounds.

Bullet Magnet, if you had shown the pix without the text I would have said....over pressure due to bullet set back on the feed ramp. Second guess would be double powder charge. The pix look like the cartridges do have a taper crimp, but since you are adamant about the crimp and powder charge, I can only assume that the crimp is insufficient.

I load around 15,000 45ACP every year. Down from a peak of about 50,000 when my son and I were both shooting IPSC and practicing on a regular basis. I have NEVER trimmed a piece of 45ACP brass. Most of the 45 brass that I cull is at the priming stage. One of our local shooters seems to have a never-ending supply of pre war WCC ammo and I also find some mil-spec FC brass that gives me fits when trying to seat primers. Other than that I'll load the brass till it splits and I can't recall the last time I had a failure to feed.

In-my-not-so-humble-opinion, 45ACP is the easiest cartridge to load that you can find anywhere. If you have to depend on gimmicks like the Lee Factory Crimp Die to make good 45ACP ammo then there's something wrong with your basic reloading procedure.

Like every thing else.....YMMV. [smilie=s:

Jerry

[imashooter2]

Was he using a Lee Factory Crimp Die to seat? I've seen the carbide ring in the FCD size boolits so that they were loose in the case after using the die.

[EMC45]

Count your fingers, then your eyes, then your blessings Sir! As a side note I cut the carbide rings our of all 3 of my Lee FC dies. It WAS swaging my bullets down. It would take great force to run them through the die. I shoot .358 diameter bullets in my Browning Hi Power and the FC die from Lee is for .355 bullets for the 9MM. They now just crimp, and do a dandy job of that!

[imashooter2]

Regards Lee FCD swagging... I personally experienced the phenomenon in .45 ACP with the Lee 452-228-1R and a friend, who posts here occasionally as pstew, had it happen to him in .40 S&W. Not sure of the boolit he was using.

[deepwaterco]

Good morning all!! Happy no body was hurt. I had this happen one time as well, it was determined by my smith that the gun had not fully gone into battrie leaving the slide open just enough that the case was un supported. This is not supposed to happen due to an index linkage that tells the gun that the slide is home and can fire. Mine was a was a goldcup that was mis-machined at the factory,since I was shooting re-loads coalt would not touch it. I am not saying that this is what happened here but may be likely. Other than grips and magazine my gun was not damaged, my smith re-worked it and it went on to fire many more rounds! Note on reloading the mouth headspacing cases I allmost allways turn and polish down the expander so I get a nice snug fit with the boolit!

[35remington]

Given that the very closest the extractor can hold the front of the rim of the case to the breechface is about .040" in a 1911 (and that's very, very conservative on the low end), even with short cases the vast, vast majority of the time the 45 ACP will headspace on the case mouth or on the bullet, depending upon what bullet is loaded and how much full diameter bearing surface is outside of the case.

A great many people who argue that the extractor headspaces the round have never measured the extractor hook to breechface distance, and have no idea how far the front of the rim has to be from the breechface for the extractor to play a role in headspacing.

If the "book" says the 45 ACP is designed to headspace on the case mouth, and that it does so the majority of the time, believe it.

A great many people are mistaken on this particular point, and don't investigate things for themselves.

If you've a more open mind than some, get a set of feeler gauges and measure the breechface to inside of extractor hook distance, and rethink what you think you know about the extractor "headspacing" the round.

My pistols are greater than .040" by a very, very noticeable amount, FWIW. Even given some hood to breechface slack in lockup, a long chamber and a short case, most rounds aren't going to headspace on the extractor even if the bullet used will allow it.

If you don't have a set of feeler gauges, take a 1/16 hex head wrench (about 0.061" as mine measure) and try to pass it between extractor hook and breechface. Mine'll pass this wrench, and then of course the gun is headspacing the cases on the case mouth almost no matter what else is going on. It'll pass a 0.048" diameter hex head wrench with a very noticeable clearance on one side.

My gun headspaces on the case mouth or bullet. Likely yours does too.

[Bullet Magnet]

We are usinging Hornady dies and we are flaring the cases. This is the same set that we used to load a great many rounds prior to this. I will check and see what type of brass those boolits were loaded in. We are also going to play with the rest of the unfired rounds and see what the tension is.

I sure would like to get to the bottom of this before I proceed loading more. I would be sick to lose my Sig 226 or Beretta.

[Springfield]

Maybe it's just the pic but the cases looked roll crimped to me. Could we get a better close up of the cases?

[35remington]

Good luck. The bullet tension should be easy to diagnose; the double charge possibility is harder to find, but very likely.

If a case can have a double powder charge, according to Mr. Murphy sometimes it will if the utmost caution is not being used.

[Bullet Magnet]

I can try to get another pic next time I see him, but he loaded them at my house without a crimp die. I was sitting there as well because I was weighing the charges.

[imashooter2]

If he didn't flare them, could he have shaved a lot of lead and killed neck tension that way?

[yondering]

I disagree that the Lee Carbide FCD isn't recommended with cast boolits. It sizes down the outside of a case only if the case is bulged larger than the maximum dimensions for the cartridge. It's solved several problems I've had with rounds not chambering with boolits cast too big, but it won't undersize them.

Ricochet, the carbide sizing ring on the Lee FCD is only a bandaid fix. If your boolits were sized correctly, they wouldn't need to be sized down by the crimp die, would they? Have you tried running a few oversized rounds through the FCD without applying a crimp, and compared neck tension before and after?

Removing the carbide sizing ring, as EMC45 stated, will make it a good crimp die.

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

I really appreciate your posts and have learned much from them. I readily and humbly admit that although I have reloaded and shot for decades I have much to learn and always want to be teachable. For those of you who roll crimp the 45 ACP, do you use a heavy roll crimp and rely on the boolit touching the leade to limit the forward motion of the round (headspace)? If not, how do you assure proper headspace? I have loaded many 45 ACPs with a very slight roll crimp (enough to get rid of the flare), but never a heavy roll crimp. I have never had a problem with bullet pull (tension between the case and boolit) or setback during cycling, etc., though.

Bullet Magnet,

Are you absolutely sure that the mishap was not due to a double charge, or at least an overcharge? That would seem to me to be the most likely cause (this is not a criticism of your competency) and this would not be first time such a thing has happened.

[mike in co]

Bullet Magnet,

Very sorry to hear of the mishap and glad that nobody was hurt seriously. If a double charge is ruled out (which can be done with aload of 4.1 grains of Bullseye), it seems to me that bullet setback is the most likely culprit. If the bullet gets pushed back and the volume of the case is significantly reduced, an overpressure condition can occur. You might want to mic your boolits to make sure they are not undersized. If they are properly sized, perhaps the expander ball in the sizing die is a bit oversized and therefore leaving the brass on the large size and not gripping the boolet enough.

Because the 45 ACP (and many other auto pistol cases as well) headspace on the case mouth, care must be taken not to roll crimp the round. Roll crimping can cause excessive headspace which can in turn cause damage to the gun upon firing. If a crimp is needed on such a case, it is by far better to use a Lee Factory Crimp die or a taper crimp die.



thats a new one on me....roll crimp causing excessive head space....hmmmmmmmm
headspace IS A CHARACTERISTIC OF A GUNS CHAMBER, not its ammo.
claim as much as they might most semis fire from the extractor,,,not the chamber mouth. we have seen one example here of that...other than my own custom 9mm.
ho hummmm
a 45acp should not be roll crimped, revolver ammo is roll crimped, and semiauto taper crimped.

mike in co

[1874Sharps]

Mike,

I am not quite sure what you are getting at.

[StarMetal]

Mike,

I am not quite sure what you are getting at.

I believe what he is getting at is that in most semi auto 45acp pistols that their are not cases that even meet the trim length of .898 so the pistol really fires off either the bullet seating in the leade in or rifling or the extractors holding the case, or the cartridge seating so deep it's head space albeit wrongly and the overly long firing pin of the 1911 will still reach and set the primer off.

NRA said they found a good roll crimp on the ACP was the most accurate over taper crimped ones and further more said that don't roll crimp them more then .020 inch....and that the 45 acp round cannot be rolled crimped for the semi auto pistols, mainly the 1911, is a fallacy.

Joe

[1874Sharps]

Joe,

I can only tell you what my reloading manuals say on this subject and that is not to roll crimp the 45 ACP, as it is a rimless, taperless case designed to headspace on the mouth. That advice and instruction is found in many different reloading manuals. Are you suggesting they are wrong?

[35remington]

What Joe's saying is despite the fact that the gun usually headspaces on the case mouth, you can bypass that and headspace on the bullet.....and then headspacing on the case mouth doesn't matter, and a roll crimp will do no harm.

Which is exactly right.

See my comments on extractor versus case mouth headspacing on page two. It's pretty easy to insert a case into the slide and let the front of the case rim "hang" on the extractor and look at it from below. Measure the clearance between the base of the case and the breechface. Since the primer is usually several thousandths below flush, that's the difference in distance the firing pin has to travel to strike the primer.

I can insert a 0.048" hex key between the base of the cartridge and the breechface with a little resistance. Given that the cartridge will be driven forward and canted a bit when struck by the firing pin, the headspace dimension will approximate that.

To determine whether your particular case is headspacing on the case mouth or not, insert it into the chamber while the barrel's in the slide and lock it up. Measure or judge the clearance between front of case rim and extractor after so doing. If there's a gap, the round's headspacing on the case mouth.

[StarMetal]

What Joe's saying is despite the fact that the gun usually headspaces on the case mouth, you can bypass that and headspace on the bullet.....and then headspacing on the case mouth doesn't matter, and a roll crimp will do no harm.

Which is exactly right.

35, from what some members have told me here it that the extractor, with it's clearance, added to how much the extractor will move forward in it's hole, that in actuality the round does bottom out in the chamber and only the 1911's long protruding firing pin saves the day. In other words some say the extractor doesn't grab the case. So that leaves us to bullet spacing, long firing pin.

Joe

[1874Sharps]

35remington,

I can understand and visualize what you describe in your posts and do agree with you. With boolits such as a 230 grain round nose, I can see where headspace could be accomplished by adjusting the overall cartridge length so that the boolit contacts the leade. This assumes that the leade of the gun in question has been cut to allow this before overall length becomes too long for the magazine and feeding.

I would like to address the assertion that because most, if not all, 45 ACP cases are below the maximum overall case length, the case must not therefore headspace on the rim of the mouth. This would seem to assume that all chambers are cut to maximum length, or near maximum length. What is the specification and tolerance for 45 ACP chambers? How tight is the headspace tolerance for the 45 ACP? Perhaps a gunsmith could comment on this.

[StarMetal]

35remington,

I can understand and visualize what you describe in your posts and do agree with you. With boolits such as a 230 grain round nose, I can see where headspace could be accomplished by adjusting the overall cartridge length so that the boolit contacts the leade. This assumes that the leade of the gun in question has been cut to allow this before overall length becomes too long for the magazine and feeding.

I would like to address the assertion that because most, if not all, 45 ACP cases are below the maximum overall case length, the case must not therefore headspace on the rim. This would seem to assume that all chambers are cut to maximum length, or near maximum length. What is the specification and tolerance for 45 ACP chambers? How tight is the headspace tolerance for the 45 ACP? Perhaps a gunsmith could comment on this.

Yes and they are wrong....just like the early history books said the world was flat. Maybe some of the pro 1911 shooters here will chime in. I can show you some holes shot with my two 1911's that I roll crimp. Read the NRA book.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

The primer was blown out and the pocket elongated.


I know that everyone says "I am experienced." and "I know what I am doing." But in this category, I think both of us can say it truthfully.
We have each loaded literally 10+ thousand rounds with jacketed rifle and pistol bullets. My buddies and I got into the hobby to make more accurate ammunition for rifles. It also helped control the costs associated with itchy trigger fingers with our hand guns :razz:. We have both been loading for years without issue. (Until now that is... [smilie=b:)
Having said that, we are absolute noobs to the world of cast boolits. We have only begun experimenting with making our own bullets and working up to a load that will actually cycle. I did quite a bit of reading here before buying my own casting set up. The bullets were made with Lee six chamber dies, sorted wheel weight lead, and hardened using water to cool them according to posts here. Our end product has been quite accurate thus far.

You are seldom allowed any mistakes when reloading and not crimping is a mistake! It's not the gun's fault and it's not the cast boolit's fault, it's your buddy's fault for not crimping. Period. Perhaps the finished diameter of the cast bullet was slightly smaller than whatever jacketed bullet you've used or perhaps he simply reached the point via powder increases where recoil overcame neck tension but whatever, it's certainly his fault for not crimping and now he knows first hand what a decrease in case volume because of a bullet seated too deep can do. The primer being blown out of an elongated pocket tells the tale of extreme pressure.....Live and learn...(the hard way in this case!) Dennis ;)

[35remington]

"35, from what some members have told me here it that the extractor, with it's clearance, added to how much the extractor will move forward in it's hole, that in actuality the round does bottom out in the chamber and only the 1911's long protruding firing pin saves the day. In other words some say the extractor doesn't grab the case. So that leaves us to bullet spacing, long firing pin."

Boy, JMB was no dummy when coming up with the 1911 design features, wasn't he?

Joe, agreed, the movement of the extractor forward when the case is struck by the firing pin has to be accounted for as well in any claim that the extractor is headspacing. That's a good point. There's a little bit of "spring" in the headspace equation in any instance the extractor acts as the headspacing surface, which lengthens the headspacing dimension. The extractor is a spring itself, or at least has a spring temper and some slack in its channel in the slide which allows it to move forward a bit.

And yeah, I agree it's often the bullet striking the leade that can and does headspace the round especially when handloaded. In jacketed factory ammo the bullet bearing surface is often far enough back that the case mouth more often comes into play.

Sharps, don't quote me, but the chamber dimensions as I recall must be at a minimum equivalent to the maximum case dimension of .898" and at a maximum of about ten thou greater than that. So that would be in the range of .898" to .908" for allowable chamber depth. Barrel fitting can alter the effective headspace as it's the breech to chamber shoulder dimension that determines headspace length.

So, we've got ten thousandths slack in a long chamber, and let's say 0.020" slack in a short case (most of my cases aren't 0.020" short BTW....most are in the range of six to fourteen thou short). Add some give in the extractor and we've got even more margin. Lengthening the headspace by adding another few thousandths for hood fitting gap and we're still within the range where the case will be headspacing on its mouth.

If some zeeb cut the chamber way too deep on a particular barrel, I can't help that. I'm speaking of the most common situation in most guns.

On topic before I hijack this thread:

Have you given any consideration of using a high bulk powder like Red Dot or some such in 4.5-5.0 grain charges to approximate standard loads? I guarantee you won't miss seeing nine to ten grains of double charged Red Dot in a 45 ACP case, even if you're looking into the case at an angle while it's below the bullet seating station in a progressive.

Not saying a double charge happened here as I certainly don't know for sure and it could be an overly deep seated bullet, but at least you could rest assurred that a double charge isn't possible.

[scrapcan]

Bucks Owin,

Your post is the exact reason I asked about the primer/primer pocket/case orientation. It definitely appears that the resultant pictures were caused by a high pressure condition to me, but I can only surmise what the cause might have been.

This is a good discussion once again on the inner workings of the 1911.

[StarMetal]

"35, from what some members have told me here it that the extractor, with it's clearance, added to how much the extractor will move forward in it's hole, that in actuality the round does bottom out in the chamber and only the 1911's long protruding firing pin saves the day. In other words some say the extractor doesn't grab the case. So that leaves us to bullet spacing, long firing pin."

Boy, JMB was no dummy when coming up with the 1911 design features, wasn't he?

Joe, agreed, the movement of the extractor forward when the case is struck by the firing pin has to be accounted for as well in any claim that the extractor is headspacing. That's a good point. There's a little bit of "spring" in the headspace equation in any instance the extractor acts as the headspacing surface, which lengthens the headspacing dimension. The extractor is a spring itself, or at least has a spring temper and some slack in its channel in the slide which allows it to move forward a bit.

And yeah, I agree it's often the bullet striking the leade that can and does headspace the round especially when handloaded. In jacketed factory ammo the bullet bearing surface is often far enough back that the case mouth more often comes into play.

Sharps, don't quote me, but the chamber dimensions as I recall must be at a minimum equivalent to the maximum case dimension of .898" and at a maximum of about ten thou greater than that. So that would be in the range of .898" to .908" for allowable chamber depth. Barrel fitting can alter the effective headspace as it's the breech to chamber shoulder dimension that determines headspace length.

So, we've got ten thousandths slack in a long chamber, and let's say 0.020" slack in a short case (most of my cases aren't 0.020" short BTW....most are in the range of six to fourteen thou short). Add some give in the extractor and we've got even more margin. Lengthening the headspace by adding another few thousandths for hood fitting gap and we're still within the range where the case will be headspacing on its mouth.

If some zeeb cut the chamber way too deep on a particular barrel, I can't help that. I'm speaking of the most common situation in most guns.

On topic before I hijack this thread:

Have you given any consideration of using a high bulk powder like Red Dot or some such in 4.5-5.0 grain charges to approximate standard loads? I guarantee you won't miss seeing nine to ten grains of double charged Red Dot in a 45 ACP case, even if you're looking into the case at an angle while it's below the bullet seating station in a progressive.

Not saying a double charge happened here as I certainly don't know for sure and it could be an overly deep seated bullet, but at least you could rest assurred that a double charge isn't possible.

35...good stuff. We're on the same page.

Joe

[runfiverun]

the excess headspace is where i keep hearing the "seat the boolit shoulder out about a thumbnail"
it's so the round headspaces on the boolit shoulder and not the case mouth.
if you even think about doing that in my 11's they won't go into battery,in fact my boy's gun won't shoot well at all without the little roll crimp over the front shoulder.
all it needs is a bump in the die.
and no all my brass isn't too long,and they aren't being held back by the extractor either.

[StarMetal]

the excess headspace is where i keep hearing the "seat the boolit shoulder out about a thumbnail"
it's so the round headspaces on the boolit shoulder and not the case mouth.
if you even think about doing that in my 11's they won't go into battery,in fact my boy's gun won't shoot well at all without the little roll crimp over the front shoulder.
all it needs is a bump in the die.
and no all my brass isn't too long,and they aren't being held back by the extractor either.


You only seat the bullet out to just touch and you must not have a very strong recoil spring.

Joe

[stiles]

Somebody makes a tool that knurls the case midbody to prevent the setback. Anybody know what it is?

DL sports (http://www.dlsports.com/pistol-ammo-more-durable.html)

[35remington]

Yep.

We're not trying to engrave the bullet hard into the rifling; just to get it to bear against the rifling such that the round is headspaced.

Still, there is enough leeway in so doing that the rounds can vary slightly in seating depth, a few thousandths each way, and the gun will function normally and still headspace on the bullet.

Now, it's possible that your gun has such an abrupt throat that seating the bullet out will wedge the bullet into the rifling. My Ruger P97 is like this. It doesn't have a longer leade, as the chamber stops and the rifling is full depth and height almost right away. The taper of the rifling from origin to full height is almost nonexistent, in other words.

It won't accept the amount of full diameter bearing surface out of the case that my 1911's will without jamming the bullet into the rifling so hard that it will pull the bullet when the round's ejected.

Solution for this gun is to seat the bullet a little deeper. In so doing it is still possible to headspace against the bullet and still have positive functioning. This Ruger will still allow some shoulder out of the case, though. Just not as much.

If your gun won't tolerate ANY amount of bullet shoulder out of the case, in my opinion it is not proper. I would have that barrel throated immediately if it were mine, as in my opinion it is not toleranced properly in its leade dimensions and shape.

Again, I apologize for any hijacking.

[runfiverun]

actually his has a very tight chamber, short too.
dang accurate though,it just needs the crimp and seating done this way to get the most out of it.
funny that his does best with remington brass also, never gave it much thought just worked up his loads.

[yondering]

As an extreme example of headspacing on the bullet; I've done this in a 10mm chamber, using 40 S&W brass. Exactly the same concept as with the .45, except the case is so short that it has no chance of headspacing on the case mouth. This does work pretty well. Like others pointed out , it is important not to seat so long that the bullet/boolit jams in the rifling.
(10mm brass was hard to come by and I have ~ 10K pieces of .40 S&W. Sectioning the brass showed the same dimensions as 10mm, except for length, so keeping in mind the decreased neck tension, 10mm data can be used.)

For just plinkin' ammo, none of this headspacing discussion matters. Even a short or roll crimped case that headspaces on the extractor somehow will still work just fine in the .45. Not best for accuracy, but it will work. It's not a problem until you get into a situation where the case is short enough to be in front of the extractor when the gun fires; as in .40 S&W ammo in a 10mm chamber.

[C.F.Plinker]

I just came up from the basement where I measured one of my spare barrels. It was .902 from the end of the hood to the ledge that the case headspaces on. An unsized but once fired round of brass measured .880. It dropped into the chamber with a nice plop and was noticeably below the end of the hood. I then smoked the mouth and dropped it into the chamber. When I took it out the mouth was shiney where it hit the ledge, so it was headspacing on the mouth.

Then I took a 185 grain Saeco SWC boolit and started it into the case and kept seating it deeper and deeper until the case head was even with the hood. When I pulled the case and boolit out the mouth was below the front driving band and more than a little of the front lube groove was showing.

So for this barrel and boolit anyway, you can't reasonably seat the boolit out far enough for the round to headspace on the boolit. My paractice is to seat the boolit out so that about 1/32 inch of the front driving band sticks out of the case mouth. This aids feeding because that part of the boolit can slide up the feed ramp. I also taper crimp so that the OD of the mouth is at .463. This leaves enough of the case exposed for headspacing while ensuring that there is a good grip on the boolit.

All of my dummy rounds are much used so if someone wants to smoke the mouth of one of theirs to see if it headspaces on the mouth or is held back by the extractor, I for one, will be interested in the results.

[StarMetal]

As an extreme example of headspacing on the bullet; I've done this in a 10mm chamber, using 40 S&W brass. Exactly the same concept as with the .45, except the case is so short that it has no chance of headspacing on the case mouth. This does work pretty well. Like others pointed out , it is important not to seat so long that the bullet/boolit jams in the rifling.
(10mm brass was hard to come by and I have ~ 10K pieces of .40 S&W. Sectioning the brass showed the same dimensions as 10mm, except for length, so keeping in mind the decreased neck tension, 10mm data can be used.)

For just plinkin' ammo, none of this headspacing discussion matters. Even a short or roll crimped case that headspaces on the extractor somehow will still work just fine in the .45. Not best for accuracy, but it will work. It's not a problem until you get into a situation where the case is short enough to be in front of the extractor when the gun fires; as in .40 S&W ammo in a 10mm chamber.

The 1911 is kind of like the Mauser in it has a controlled feed. Just as the rifle cartridges in the Mauser is being stripped from the magazine the rim feeds up behind the extractor and is controled by it, so is the 1911. You are not suppose to drop a round in a 1911 chamber and let the slide ram home having the extractor ride over the rim. So, in a 1911, tell me how the cartridge can get ahead of the extractor???? Also as previously pointed out unless the cartridge is extremely short the extractor on the 1911 doesn't headspace the round.

Joe

[35remington]

"So for this barrel and boolit anyway, you can't reasonably seat the boolit out far enough for the round to headspace on the boolit."

Your leade is long, and the resulting OAL from the leade origin to breechface is what determines if bullet headspacing occurs. I agree, with this particular bullet you can't, but then bullet headspacing doesn't have to happen all the time.

Your taper crimp is simply vicious at .463." That's more than anyone I ever heard of does in terms of case mouth reduction. I go to around .471."

A comment not necessarily pertaining to C.F.'s post.......

You can't determine whether the case is headspacing on the case mouth or extractor until you compare the chambered round's clearance when headspacing on the case mouth to the front of the rim's relationship to the extractor. Any case of any length will headspace on the case mouth when simply dropped in the barrel alone, but you've got to look at more than that to determine the headspacing relationship.

Another general comment not pertaining to C.F.'s post.......don't measure actual headspace with a fired case, as that case is short. It lengthens when sized, so if you want to see what any particular case will do for headspace, size it first.

If you're just making a point about case length, an unsized case is fine. I presume and know that's what C.F. was doing, so I'm not critiquing his method, just pointing out your fired cases are not what your loaded cases measure in length....they're several thousandths longer when sized.

Anyway, I regret the hijack. I started a new thread if you want to discuss the headspace issue further so the OP may stick to determining what went wrong when his casehead blew out.

My apologies to the OP.

[KYCaster]

Boy, JMB was no dummy when coming up with the 1911 design features, wasn't he?


Man, you said a mouthful there!!!

I've been trying to resist the urge to jump in here, but since we're well into hijack mode already.....

The more I learn about the 1911, the more respect I gain for John Browning.

I suppose the question of how the 1911 maintains headspace dimensions will never truely be put to rest, but as far as I'm concerned, it matters not a bit HOW it works, just knowing that it DOES work is enough.

How the system is DESIGNED to work, how it ACTUALLY DOES work, and how it CAN POSSIBLY work don't necessarily always agree.

Concensus seems to be that the best situation is for the case mouth to contact the front of the chamber (headspace on the case mouth), like it is DESIGNED to do, but considering the reality of variable case length, that obviously doesn't happen very often.

So we generally build our loads so the bullet comes very close to contacting the front of the chamber or actually contacts the rifling leade. A very effective method that ACTUALLY DOES work well.

BUT....that doesn't explain how 45GAP with an OAL length .100 shorter than 45ACP will actually function in a gun chambered for the longer cartridge. OR how a 40S&W cartridge can be fired in a 45ACP chamber....OR how a 9mm can be fired in a 40S&W chamber. It seems that the only answer is that the cartridge CAN POSSIBLY headspace on the extractor.

Kinda hard to pick sides when everybody's right. :wink:

Jerry

P.S......Wandering even further off topic....while typing this I recalled an incedent that has had me baffled for a while and I may now have an explanation for it.

At an IPSC match about a year and a half ago, I witnessed the catastrophic failure of a 1911 chambered in 40S&W. Unlike the typical brass failure at the feed ramp that blows out through the mag well, this one blew out the top of the chamber and a piece of the slide from the ejection port to about half way down the left side of the slide.

Consensus at the time was a double powder charge, but it has always bothered me because it was so inconsistant with other over charge failures I've seen. Now I wonder if a 9mm round could have been pushed into the barrel and then a 40 chambered behind it....I'll see the guy next Sunday, I'll ask him about it.

Anyway, thanks for listening. [smilie=s:

[35remington]

No argument that a case can headspace on the extractor.

I'm just saying, most of the time, that it does not. Even with variable case length.....because the cases ain't usually short enough to get it done most of the time. It's usually either the bullet or the case mouth that accomplishes headspacing. If the bullet is not headspacing the round, the case mouth and chamber shoulder is far, far more likely to do so than the extractor. Due in large part to the fact that most of the time tolerances don't allow it.

So bullet or case mouth headspacing is the norm.

See my other thread.

[dbldblu]

I have never experienced any problem with cast bullets (or swaged) in 45ACP even without crimp. I suppose that I am just lucky that the diameter of my expander ball is just right. On the other hand 230 FMJ loaded with the same die set will not stay put. I started using a taper crimp die due to difficulties with FMJ!

One really should make up dummy rounds and cycle them from magazine to chamber several times to be sure the bullets do not get pushed farther in. This is a necessary part of load development with any semiauto IMO.

[yondering]

So, in a 1911, tell me how the cartridge can get ahead of the extractor????
I'm not sure what causes it to happen, but using .40 S&W in a 10mm chamber, it is possible. I'm not sure why, except that the controlled round feed relies in part on the cartridge length. I really doubt it would happen in a .45.



Also as previously pointed out unless the cartridge is extremely short the extractor on the 1911 doesn't headspace the round.


That's pretty much what I said. Not sure if you misread, or just want to argue?

[Char-Gar]

While it is true that a bullet shoved back into the case will increase the pressure, it will not do it enough to cause the damage you described.

You had a double charge of powder in that case. Yes, I know how careful your were, and you will swear on a stack of bibles, there was no double charge, but that is what happened. Now shove the bullet back on a double charge and Kaboom.

The rest of you boys are having a very interesting and informative discussion, but the answer is as plain as rat **** in the sugar bowl.

YOU do need to put a good taper crimp on those loads, but that is not the culprit.

[StarMetal]

While it is true that a bullet shoved back into the case will increase the pressure, it will not do it enough to cause the damage you described.

You had a double charge of powder in that case. Yes, I know how careful your were, and you will swear on a stack of bibles, there was no double charge, but that is what happened. Now shove the bullet back on a double charge and Kaboom.

YOU do need to put a good taper crimp on those loads, but that is not the culprit.


I agree with Charles, I just didn't want to say anything about it.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Joe old pal...you don't help folks by keeping quiet. I have loaded some funky ammo that I would have sworn could not have happened. When the answer is laying out there in frot of us, we just have to take a deep breath and consider the possibility we were distracted for a moment and screwed the pooch.

It is not a character law to make a mistake. Saying we can't make a mistake is getting close to a character flaw. We learn from our mistakes. If we don't own up to our mistakes we never learn anything.

Powder charge errors can happen to anybody no matter how experienced they are. I am well over a million rounds loaded and I am not except from even the most basic errors. It is said, that familiararity breeds contempt, well it also breeds carelessness. We we have done it so often, we load on auto-pilot watch out.

I am not a big fan of loading with a buddy and the chit-chat makes it easier to take your eye off the ball for a nano-second.

The good thing is folks are seldom seriously hurt when a gun kabooms.

[Bass Ackward]

I will add one more theory. The problem was clearly from pressure. Could be that we had a few things cooperate here to form the right set of conditions.

No one ever mentioned that brass is the weakest link in the pressure chain and that it's age and numbers of firings will have an effect on it's ability to perform adequately. Brass doesn't come with a guarantee that it will split at the mouth to indicate it's time to discard. But we bet our injury on it.

Pistol primers have to be made most consistent of all, but you do get primers that are extremes above and below the norm.

With the amount of high volume loading in fairly low volume case capacities that occurs for semis with varying chamber dimensions, considering how much difference there is in brass and the lack of respect and focus that goes into the weakest link in the chain from preparation to mixed brands that we picked up, it is remarkable the low incidences that occur. And this is the highest reloading rate in the sport with the most margin for error.

My point is that you can have a confluence of events that do not have to point to a single factor, just a result. I have had it happen in handguns and rifles with reloads to new factory ammo. We are dealing with the deliberate ignition of a potentially explosive round. And a rate of fire that can be too high to catch problems or mistakes. And I can't afford to shoot factory ammo.

Thank goodness no one was hurt.

I wish I could say that eventually you will get passed it. The speed of the steps were simply to great and the numbers too high for developing my trust in myself and the process. So I stay with revolvers these days. That is the only thing that allowed me to move on.

[Bullet Magnet]

While it is true that a bullet shoved back into the case will increase the pressure, it will not do it enough to cause the damage you described.

You had a double charge of powder in that case. Yes, I know how careful your were, and you will swear on a stack of bibles, there was no double charge, but that is what happened. Now shove the bullet back on a double charge and Kaboom.

The rest of you boys are having a very interesting and informative discussion, but the answer is as plain as rat **** in the sugar bowl.

YOU do need to put a good taper crimp on those loads, but that is not the culprit.

I have zero doubt that this is a pressure issue. I don't think it was just a bad case as the primer was blown with visible elongation in the pocket not just a blown case wall. I can rule out leading with some certainty as both pistols were disassembled and checked with frequency. We each made it through a couple hundred rounds when the incident occurred.

I wouldn't really swear on a whole stack of bibles that it wasn't a double load. It was just that in this instance there were two of us and we were going slow so that we could be extra careful and consistent with charge. We had the attitude that we were conducting a science experiment. Our goal was to have carefully controlled test batches of 9mm and .45 rather than bulk plinking stuff. Being human and regardless of experience, I know that I am fallible even if I am being extra careful. In this case, we were using the lightest load that would cycle in the gun. It was around 1.3 gr less than max charge depending on your information source. I am not sure what 8.2 gr of Bullseye would look like in the case (and I will check) but I would guess that even if it were missed at the charging station we would have caught it visually when we set the bullet in. The 9mm had zero function issues. Every round cycled and was most accurate. The rounds from the .45 prior to to the boom one were also functional and gave no evidence that any were charged more than others. In my experience when there is a goof on a powder charge there is sound and/or recoil difference. In this case, I was next to him when he was shooting and when the gun went kaboom. The sound seemed directed more to our direction (obviously) but didn't sound especially powerful. At first he thought he popped a primer. He didn't really notice a recoil difference.

I am not saying that an overcharge can be ruled out absolutely. That or barrel obstruction is the cause behind every "gun goes kabloom" issue that I personally know if. My inquiry was more centered on if there were special considerations when casting or loading cast bullets that I may have overlooked. We have never had an issue even close to this before and I know that cast bullets in general are not the culprit. I readily admit that it was an operator failure. Be it in the casting process or loading is what I am unsure.

[Edubya]

Bullet Mgnet, yo are taking all of this in in a very mature methodical way and I commend you for that.
I'm going to share a thought with you and others that read this.
I will only load when I'm alone and in the mood to dedicate my full attention to each and every step. I am anal about this. If the telephone rings, I will stop everything I'm doing and when it stops ringing, I'll recheck everything that I was doing prior. The same thing if my wife comes into my reloading area. If there is any question about any of it, I will take the boolits down and either stop or just ask myself if I can dismiss whatever caused the initial stoppage.
I load on a progressive (Dillon 550) I find that my mind strays sometimes and especially if I lose rhythm. I will start saying: Powder;Primer; Boolit as I'm progressing through each stage checking that the primer was picked up by the case, the amount is visually right and the boolit has been set.
Loading is not a time for socials as far as I'm concerned.
EW

[StarMetal]

I have zero doubt that this is a pressure issue. I don't think it was just a bad case as the primer was blown with visible elongation in the pocket not just a blown case wall. I can rule out leading with some certainty as both pistols were disassembled and checked with frequency. We each made it through a couple hundred rounds when the incident occurred.

I wouldn't really swear on a whole stack of bibles that it wasn't a double load. It was just that in this instance there were two of us and we were going slow so that we could be extra careful and consistent with charge. We had the attitude that we were conducting a science experiment. Our goal was to have carefully controlled test batches of 9mm and .45 rather than bulk plinking stuff. Being human and regardless of experience, I know that I am fallible even if I am being extra careful. In this case, we were using the lightest load that would cycle in the gun. It was around 1.3 gr less than max charge depending on your information source. I am not sure what 8.2 gr of Bullseye would look like in the case (and I will check) but I would guess that even if it were missed at the charging station we would have caught it visually when we set the bullet in. The 9mm had zero function issues. Every round cycled and was most accurate. The rounds from the .45 prior to to the boom one were also functional and gave no evidence that any were charged more than others. In my experience when there is a goof on a powder charge there is sound and/or recoil difference. In this case, I was next to him when he was shooting and when the gun went kaboom. The sound seemed directed more to our direction (obviously) but didn't sound especially powerful. At first he thought he popped a primer. He didn't really notice a recoil difference.

I am not saying that an overcharge can be ruled out absolutely. That or barrel obstruction is the cause behind every "gun goes kabloom" issue that I personally know if. My inquiry was more centered on if there were special considerations when casting or loading cast bullets that I may have overlooked. We have never had an issue even close to this before and I know that cast bullets in general are not the culprit. I readily admit that it was an operator failure. Be it in the casting process or loading is what I am unsure.

I've said but apparently it went over heads. When the web blows out on the case in a 1911 it dumps the pressure FAST and down the magazine well...thus not much recoil. Number too, because the powder. Next, when a cartridge works as it's suppose the powder is mostly totally consumed, the energy contained until the bullet leaves the muzzle, and a good loud boom. In a ruptured case the pressure wasn't nearly as high as total normal combustion, more then likely all the powder wasn't burnt...thus not as loud. We're talking the 1911 here and not a rifle. I have not seen many catastrophic 1911 accident. Most do as you have just found out. Blow the magazine out and the grips off.

Joe

[robertbank]

I've said but apparently it went over heads. When the web blows out on the case in a 1911 it dumps the pressure FAST and down the magazine well...thus not much recoil. Number too, because the powder. Next, when a cartridge works as it's suppose the powder is mostly totally consumed, the energy contained until the bullet leaves the muzzle, and a good loud boom. In a ruptured case the pressure wasn't nearly as high as total normal combustion, more then likely all the powder wasn't burnt...thus not as loud. We're talking the 1911 here and not a rifle. I have not seen many catastrophic 1911 accident. Most do as you have just found out. Blow the magazine out and the grips off.

Joe

You nailed it Joe. Having had TWO double charges (yes I am a slow learner but learn I finally did). I can't say I noticed much difference in recoil but that might be due to the fact I was so shocked to see my mag on the ground and my shooting hand black as the ace of spades with two distinct lines of red/black skin caused by the grips leaving the pistol rather abruptly. I have the blown out case prominently displayed above my reloading bench as a reminder of the event. The Norincos are great pistols and built like tanks, thankfully. No damge done other than to my ego and a set of maple grips.

Take Care

Bob

[StarMetal]

You nailed it Joe. Having had TWO double charges (yes I am a slow learner but learn I finally did). I can't say I noticed much difference in recoil but that might be due to the fact I was so shocked to see my mag on the ground and my shooting hand black as the ace of spades with two distinct lines of red/black skin caused by the grips leaving the pistol rather abruptly. I have the blown out case prominently displayed above my reloading bench as a reminder of the event. The Norincos are great pistols and built like tanks, thankfully. No damge done other than to my ego and a set of maple grips.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

I had a 9mm rupture the web in my Browining Hi Power one day. It didn't sound right, like a squib load. First thing I did was remove the magazine and check the barrel for a stuck bullet. Holding the magazine the floor plate didn't look right...duh, it was bent. Then my grip hand started to tingle...cracked grip and shock transmitted to my hand. Next I searched the ground for the case. Yup, ruptured at the web. Think was they were brand new primed WW cases. The load was 4.0 grains of Unique 124 grain RCBS TC bullet. I looked at the rest of my fired cases and all were bulged bad. So I fired some in a pistol that supports the web entirely and that is the P 38 Walther. Yup, they were defective. I presented this to Larry Gibson with some pictures and he confirmed it too and said throw them away Joe. I did too. The Browning handled that ruptured better then this fellows 1911 and there was no loud noise or more recoil.

Joe

[Philngruvy]

This has been a great discussion but it leaves me a little confused. I am a noobie to reloading 9mm Luger and my confusion relates to crimping. I have the 45th edition Lyman Reloading Handbook and on page 165 it says "This particular cartridge headspaces on the case mouth and, therefore, the case should not be crimped." I am using a Lee Pro 1000 press and Lee dies (90509) and I set the bullet seating die per instructions.screwing the die in until it touches the shell holder and then backing out 3 full turns. At this point , the instructions say "if a crimp is desired, screw the die in slightly and test until the proper crimp is formed." I did not do this since the Lyman book said the case should not be crimped. Is this wrong info or am I OK with what I am doing. BTW, the rounds are to be shot in a Glock 19 and a Sig. I have shot about 50 rounds with good results. Should I go back and crimp the 1000 rounds I have stocked up?
Thanks and sorry if I derailed this thread but it seemed the appropriate place to ask.
Ron

[Char-Gar]

Bullet Magnet... I guess I can sound a little pompus at time, but with over half century and hundreds of thousands of rounds reloaded in various 1911 pistols, I think I have learned a thing or two. I have fired loads with the bullet shoved back in to the case as per your photo. Yes, there was some increased pressure, but nothing to tear up a pistol. Not anything near what it took to do that kind of damage.

The only other cause worth investigating would be the pistol firing before everything was locked in full battery. Expose enough brass and maybe...

I think Joe is correct in his theory of how the gas was dumped and why the recoil didn't seem excessive.

You can nit pick this dead 1911 all day long, but at the end of the day it is and will be too much gun powder.

The chap with the Norinco is dead right about these pistols. Folks are turned off by the "Made in China" stamp on the pistol, but they are super good basic pistols with some of the finest steel and heat treated around. I have two and would buy another in a flash. The frames are milled from forgings and the slides from one piece of high quality tool steel. They are heat treated very hard for wear resistance, but not hard enough to be brittle. They are rough around the edges, but the basic good stuff is there.

Phil... Use a taper crimp die for auto pistol reloads. You don't wantd to put a roll crimp on the round, but a taper crimp. A roll crimp with shorten the case and mess up the headspace. A taper crimp won't shorten the case and still allow proper headspacing. Here is how you adjust a taper crimp die.

1. Place a factory loaded round in the shell holder and raise the press ram to it's maximum height.
2. Screw the taper crimp die down onto the loaded rounds as hard as you can with your hand. Don't use any tools.
3. Run the lock ring down to lock the die in place

That is all their is too it. I have some good USGI 45 ACP and 9mm rounds to set my taper crimp dies.

[Tazman1602]

This has been a great discussion but it leaves me a little confused. I am a noobie to reloading 9mm Luger and my confusion relates to crimping. I have the 45th edition Lyman Reloading Handbook and on page 165 it says "This particular cartridge headspaces on the case mouth and, therefore, the case should not be crimped." I am using a Lee Pro 1000 press and Lee dies (90509) and I set the bullet seating die per instructions.screwing the die in until it touches the shell holder and then backing out 3 full turns. At this point , the instructions say "if a crimp is desired, screw the die in slightly and test until the proper crimp is formed." I did not do this since the Lyman book said the case should not be crimped. Is this wrong info or am I OK with what I am doing. BTW, the rounds are to be shot in a Glock 19 and a Sig. I have shot about 50 rounds with good results. Should I go back and crimp the 1000 rounds I have stocked up?
Thanks and sorry if I derailed this thread but it seemed the appropriate place to ask.
Ron

Hey Ron,

That Lee die will taper crimp IF you use the procedure that Chargar told you about. If you want a taper crimp die -- I do this in a separate station for all my .45acp stuff buy one of these and you will NOT be sorry:

Dillon Taper Crimp die (http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24483/catid/4/Dillon_Crimp_Dies)

Really makes things easy on you. Just my opinion.

Regards,

Art

[Philngruvy]

Thanks Art and Chagar for the help. Wow, going back and crimping all the rounds I have made is going to be a pita but AI guess it is better than having an accident. I think I will put the crimp die in my Challenger press for this task.
Ron

[1874Sharps]

Ron,

The manuals are correct concerning cases such as the 45 ACP and 9 mm being designed to headspace on the mouth. They do not headspace on the extractor. If cases headspaced on the extractor I do not know why we would have any concerns about headspace, because after all, do not all modern firearms have extractors? No, the manuals are correct. Now, there are roll crimps and there are taper crimps. With a straight wall rimless case such as your 9 mm the idea is to remove the bell of the case mouth created in the previous step. You can use your bullet seating die to turn the bell back in, or even make a very slight roll crimp, but you certainly do not want a heavy roll crimp such as you would make on a 44 magnum or you will likely get excessive headspace. A taper crimp die will turn the bell back in also and many shooters prefer using that method. A snug fit of the bullet in the case neck will ensure it stays put.

I would like to address the idea of headspacing straight walled, rimless cartridges such as the 45 ACP by the bullet contacting the leade. I have no doubt that in certain situations this is possible. For example, loading 40 S&W brass with the bullet extended to headspace on the leade of a 10 mm is possible with certain bullets. Would I want to do this? No. What happens if the bullet is set back during the feeding process? Excessive headspace occurs and the 40 S&W/10 mm round operates at pretty high pressures. I will use 10 mm brass in my 10 mm gun just as it was designed to shoot. John M. Browning, as it has been stated here, was no dummy. The headspace method he created and designed for the 45 ACP cartridge works quite well and is best left alone.

[Char-Gar]

Phil.. Yep, it will be a PITA! But that is part of the learning curve. Good luck.

[Dale53]

1874Sharps;
My experience has been with the .45 ACP. Cases vary in length and ALL of them are BELOW the minimum length. The system of headspacing on the case mouth was developed for loose, rattly, military .45's. Many of them were lucky to stay within 5"-6" at 25 yards.

However, a finely tuned 1911 .45 ACP is a completely different animal. Modern made 1911's such as the Kimber also ,now, pretty much fall into the "finely tuned" category. These pistols DO benefit from headspacing on the bullet (I am speaking particularly of cast lead bullets, here). This gives repeatable, consistent ignition and measurably can increase accuracy. If, for some reason, the bullet is "deep seated" the pistol's "fall back" is case mouth headspacing. However, if the bullet is "deep seated" you will have other things to worry about other than headspace. Excess pressure is the result of deep seating of bullets. It is NECESSARY to avoid "deep seating". Good case neck tension AND a good taper crimp is the best way to avoid this. That's what I do and it has been more than satisfactory for many, many years.

PROPER roll crimping ala Alton S. Dinan can work, also. I use taper crimping but Dinan "did the work" and supplied the evidence that roll crimping can be a very satisfactory method (see the references I supplied above).

FWIW
Dale53

[StarMetal]

Ron,

The manuals are correct concerning cases such as the 45 ACP and 9 mm being designed to headspace on the mouth. They do not headspace on the extractor. If cases headspaced on the extractor I do not know why we would have any concerns about headspace, because after all, do not all modern firearms have extractors? No, the manuals are correct. Now, there are roll crimps and there are taper crimps. With a straight wall rimless case such as your 9 mm the idea is to remove the bell of the case mouth created in the previous step. You can use your bullet seating die to turn the bell back in, or even make a very slight roll crimp, but you certainly do not want a heavy roll crimp such as you would make on a 44 magnum or you will likely get excessive headspace. A taper crimp die will turn the bell back in also and many shooters prefer using that method. A snug fit of the bullet in the case neck will ensure it stays put.

I would like to address the idea of headspacing straight walled, rimless cartridges such as the 45 ACP by the bullet contacting the leade. I have no doubt that in certain situations this is possible. For example, loading 40 S&W brass with the bullet extended to headspace on the leade of a 10 mm is possible with certain bullets. Would I want to do this? No. What happens if the bullet is set back during the feeding process? Excessive headspace occurs and the 40 S&W/10 mm round operates at pretty high pressures. I will use 10 mm brass in my 10 mm gun just as it was designed to shoot. John M. Browning, as it has been stated here, was no dummy. The headspace method he created and designed for the 45 ACP cartridge works quite well and is best left alone.

Straight walled cartridges huh?
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd9parabellum.jpghttp://stevespages.com/jpg/cd45acp.jpg

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Dale.. I am familiar with Dinan"s good work published a generation ago in the American Rifleman. You can indeed get by with a mild roll crimp.

However, on this public forum we tend to get involved in in-house discussions of minutia and forget that are lots of folks out there who get lost in all of our wanderings down rabbit trails. They are the new folks who need basic information before the post graduate courses begin.

I would not want to squelch the postgrad part of our discussions, but new folks need to understand they need to walk before they run. An information overload is not what they need.

I am not aiming this at you as a criticism, but just a general notion that is on my mind.

[1874Sharps]

Joe,

The above recent post would seem to imply that because the 9 mm LugEr (it is spelled with an E after the German maker, Georg Luger) and 45 ACP have taper, they are not considered straight walled cases. Yes they have taper and yes they are considered straight walled.

[StarMetal]

Dale.. I am familiar with Dinan"s good work published a generation ago in the American Rifleman. You can indeed get by with a mild roll crimp.

However, on this public forum we tend to get involved in in-house discussions of minutia and forget that are lots of folks out there who get lost in all of our wanderings down rabbit trails. They are the new folks who need basic information before the post graduate courses begin.

I would not want to squelch the postgrad part of our discussions, but new folks need to understand they need to walk before they run. An information overload is not what they need.

I am not aiming this at you as a criticism, but just a general notion that is on my mind.

.....yup, more more then .020 inch of roll crimp.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Joe,

The above recent post would seem to imply that because the 9 mm LugEr (it is spelled with an E after the German maker, Georg Luger) and 45 ACP have taper, they are not considered straight walled cases. Yes they have taper and yes they are considered straight walled.

Of the two the 9mm is furthest away from a straight wall. I believe the incorrect nomenclature comes from that they aren't bottlenecked cases. Wrong nomenclature in science can be dangerous.

Joe

[Dale53]

Chargar;
Here is my recipe for excellent results with the .45 ACP in the 1911 platform with CAST BULLETS:

1 - Use the chamber in YOUR pistol to determine bullet seating depth (remove
remove the barrel, hold it vertically, and seat the bullet until the case head
is flush with the barrel hood.

2 - Taper crimp to a dimension of .470" at the outside diameter of the mouth of the case.

3 - I size my bullets to .452".

This method is as fool proof as it can get. It is specific and it works with a variety of pistols. The only caveat is to use brass of sufficient neck thickness to maintain sufficient case neck tension (I prefer military brass but will use standard American brass other than Remington - Winchester and Federal is fine, etc). Of course, the overall length can not exceed magazine max length for obvious reasons (that will not happen unless you have a GROSSLY deepened chamber).

The test for "sufficient case neck tension" is to seat a bullet WITHOUT crimping and see if you can, by pushing the nose of the bullet against a solid bench top, as hard as you can with thumb pressure. If the bullet stays put, you can assume that you have sufficient case neck tension. Then, when properly taper crimped as described, you should have NO deep seating problems.

Chargar, no offense taken.

FWIW
Dale53

[StarMetal]

Chargar;
Here is my recipe for excellent results with the .45 ACP in the 1911 platform with CAST BULLETS:

1 - Use the chamber in YOUR pistol to determine bullet seating depth (remove
remove the barrel, hold it vertically, and seat the bullet until the case head
is flush with the barrel hood.

2 - Taper crimp to a dimension of .470" at the outside diameter of the mouth of the case.

3 - I size my bullets to .452".

This method is as fool proof as it can get. It is specific and it works with a variety of pistols. The only caveat is to use brass of sufficient neck thickness to maintain sufficient case neck tension (I prefer military brass but will use standard American brass other than Remington - Winchester and Federal is fine, etc). Of course, the overall length can not exceed magazine max length for obvious reasons (that will not happen unless you have a GROSSLY deepened chamber).

The test for "sufficient case neck tension" is to seat a bullet WITHOUT crimping and see if you can, by pushing the nose of the bullet against a solid bench top, as hard as you can with thumb pressure. If the bullet stays put, you can assume that you have sufficient case neck tension. Then, when properly taper crimped as described, you should have NO deep seating problems.

Chargar, no offense taken.

FWIW
Dale53

Dale,

Mine's the same as yours except I don't taper crimp, I roll crimp, I don't believe in taper crimping.

Joe

[robertbank]

Joe I believe the best description for the 9MM is tapered. ie it is wider at the base then it is at the mouth. A bottle neck describes a case more like a .30-06 or .303 Brit with a shoulder.

We all have our own ideas as to what works. For the new shooter all you have to do with the 9MM is remove the belling you applied. Treat the 9MM as a straight walled case and you will be fine. Like the .45acp the bullet is held in with friction not by a crimp. With lead bullets you can, if you want to, roll a slight crimp into the lead bullet; with jacketed I not sure it is such a good idea given their is no crimp groove on 9MM jacketed bullets and the case does headspace of the case mouth. In any case I have never applied a roll crimp to either .45acp or 9MM cases. A roll crimp truly isn't necessary IMHO.

Unlike the .45acp I have not seen examples of bullet push back using jacketed bullets in the 9MM. Not sure if that is due to the smaller case or not.

Take Care

Bob

[Tazman1602]

Thanks Art and Chagar for the help. Wow, going back and crimping all the rounds I have made is going to be a pita but AI guess it is better than having an accident. I think I will put the crimp die in my Challenger press for this task.
Ron

Hey Phil,

Don't get caught up in all the complicated krap we get into here at times. Just put a slight crimp on the bullets, make sure your load is WELL within SAAMI limits and go have some fun. If you want to get extremely technical, a lot of us here can do that, but in your situation just make sure you have a nice tight bullet like Chargar told you to and worry about perfection later. The object here is to have FUN without blowing oneself UP.

Art

[Philngruvy]

OK, now Joe's picture in post #85 shows a head dimension of .380. I measured several of my loads and I am getting readings in the range of .370 - .373. Maybe I unknowingly taper crimped these after all?
Ron

[StarMetal]

Joe I believe the best description for the 9MM is tapered. ie it is wider at the base then it is at the mouth. A bottle neck describes a case more like a .30-06 or .303 Brit with a shoulder.

We all have our own ideas as to what works. For the new shooter all you have to do with the 9MM is remove the belling you applied. Treat the 9MM as a straight walled case and you will be fine. Like the .45acp the bullet is held in with friction not by a crimp. With lead bullets you can, if you want to, roll a slight crimp into the lead bullet; with jacketed I not sure it is such a good idea given their is no crimp groove on 9MM jacketed bullets and the case does headspace of the case mouth. In any case I have never applied a roll crimp to either .45acp or 9MM cases. A roll crimp truly isn't necessary IMHO.

Unlike the .45acp I have not seen examples of bullet push back using jacketed bullets in the 9MM. Not sure if that is due to the smaller case or not.

Take Care

Bob

Bob,

I've had bullets pushed back in the 9mm due to not so good feeding magazines and the bullet nose hitting the feed ramp. Mainly in my 9mm 1911 more so then a different brand handgun.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Dale... that is exactly the way I do it except I no longer measure the case mouth after the crimp. I just set the taper crimp on a round of GI ball and I am good to go.

IIRC Dinan felt the roll crimp producted a tad better accuracy. IIRC he was not using a real pistol, but a barrel set up in a rifle bolt action bolted in a fixture to the bench. That is way to hair splitting for me.

Whatever slight extra accuracy (if any) there might be in a real world pistol, it is not worth the hastle of messing with a roll crimp when a taper is so easy to set up and use. With the right pistol and load, a good man can cut out the X-Ring of a standard target. That is good enough for me.

I like to do things the way God and John Browning intended!

[jimbojr]

Shoot HARD boolits to maintain brass tension and CRIMP.
I can't imagine the pressure from those boolits that far down in the brass.

Can't roll crimp a 45acp it needs to be taper crimped. Because the round spaces on the head or opening of the case.

[MtGun44]

Jimbojr,

While I am strongly in support of taper crimping, I must say that you can easily use mild
roll crimping. OR you can easily use a heavy roll crimp if you use a boolit which will hit the
rifling and locate the round properly - basically headspacing on the boolit.

I taper crimp and have had excellent success in the last 200,000 + rounds of .45 ACP that
I have loaded and so have the dozens of other .45 ACP newbies that I have coached into
getting relialble reloads for their 1911s.

As to the original topic. The failure mode is surprising. I have personally done one
double charge with Bullseye (9.4 gr of BE is DEFINITELY too much !!) with no damage
to anything except the case, the grips and the magazine - and of course my ego.
I have seen several other double charges, too, maybe 6 in total. All blew out the case
in the unsupported ramp area. Blowing out the primer pocket seems quite surprising.

Rem35 is absolutely correct on .45 ACP headspacing, by the way.

As to the 'don't taper crimp a 9mm" commentary -- A moderate taper crimp is always
a good idea on any of the ACPs and similar semi-auto rounds. It would take a truly
massive TC to interfere with headspacing. I recommend pushing about half of the
brass thickness into the boolit, judged by eyeball using magnification if necessary and
viewing the round from the front - with an uncrimped round beside it as a reference.
It would be an interesting experiment to see if it is possible to TC so much as to cause
the case mouth to miss the fwd edge of the chamber. The dimensions of the die may
proclude the possibility, but I haven't tried it - yet.

Bill

[exile]

I guess it is my lack of reloading experience, but how do you load a semi-auto pistol cartridge without taper crimp? It seems like you would have to work hard to accomplish that. Again, forgive me for my lack of experience.

exile

[robertbank]

I load both the 9MM and ,45acp by the thousands every year using lead cast bullets. In both cases the bullet is held in place by case friction. I size my bullets .356 and .452 respectively. In both instances the cases have a slight bulge from the bullet if you view the case from the side. All I have found necessary is to remove the belling on the case using a taper crimp. I use Dillon dies for both cartrdges.

If you attempt to apply a roll crimp to this cartridges you run the risk of actually reducing the amount of friction applied by the case as the brass will bow out. Both cartridges headspace on the mouth of the cartridge.

To add to all of this both cases will shorten over time. This is particularly evident in .45acp cases that seem to last forever. I have yet to find a .45acp case that exceed .894 length or com close to that length and that applies to new brass as well.

While I have loaded jacketed bullets in both cartridges they do represent challenges. Most are sized .355 and .451 respectively and case friction is much less effective using the dies I have. Bullet set back from repr=eated chambering has occurred on more than one occassion or when incountering nose down jams. The latter can be caused by weak mag springs or cartridges either to long or to short for the pistol.

Thats my take on the subject. Others no doubt may have different experiences.

Take Care

Bob

[johnlaw484]

I use the .45 acp Lee factory crimp die in my Loadmaster and have shot thousands of rounds through my Kimber with never a setback. The darn thing just works.
I have seen several Federal +P factory rounds that have set back.