Wrinkle issue

[burch]

I`m breaking in a new BRP mold. This is a .360-220GC for my 35 Rem. The recommended alloy was a 50/50 mix of w-w`s and pure lead. I`ve used casting temps from 750-850 and have yet to get rid of the deep wrinkles. The bullets are turning out with good bands and crimp groove and are very shinny. I used the new mold for the third time this morning so i`m aware of having to break in new molds but is the deep wrinkle thing common or what ?

Burch [smilie=b:

[docone31]

Mold needs more heat.

[burch]

Mold needs more heat.


I was thinking the same thing but after 10 - 15 bullets shouldn`t it be up to temp ?

[docone31]

No.
I have found, although large castings transmit lots of BTUs you can benifit from pre-heating.
Just rest the mold on the melt for a bit, then cast away.
I put a layer of Kitty Litter on top, and rest my molds on that when casting.

[burch]

No.
I have found, although large castings transmit lots of BTUs you can benifit from pre-heating.
Just rest the mold on the melt for a bit, then cast away.
I put a layer of Kitty Litter on top, and rest my molds on that when casting.

This is an aluminum mold like the Lee`s. Do these type molds require more heat ?

[462]

burch,

My Lee moulds require a lot of heat, in the beginning. After the mould gets up to its proper operating temperature, then I turn the thermostat down.

[docone31]

Aluminum molds take heat!
While you are casting to make heat, you will get wrinkles. Once you heat soak, then cast, it is a different situation.
Heat soak. When pouring, count six to sprue freeze, then cut sprue. It should take six seconds to freeze. 7 seconcs, go slower, 5 seconds, go faster with your pour.
You will get it.
Aluminum takes a lot of heat.

[burch]

What`s good melt temp for this 50/50 mix ? Is the 750 - 850 range good or what ?

[docone31]

I gotta Lee 20lb bottom pour pot.
I turn it up all the way. I add zinc to my melt.
Flows nice as could be.
A little zinc, not much. With paper patching, zinc is no issue. I find the hard castings desireable.

[burch]

I gotta Lee 20lb bottom pour pot.
I turn it up all the way. I add zinc to my melt.
Flows nice as could be.
A little zinc, not much. With paper patching, zinc is no issue. I find the hard castings desireable.


I just have a cast pot and propane furnace i`m using with a ladle.

[AZ-Stew]

Doc is trying to tell you to cast faster. Speed up your cadence so less heat can escape from the mould between castings. Pre-heating also helps, but you will soon slip back into making wrinkled boolits if you don't keep up the mould heat. I work in the electronics manufacturing industry. We use aluminum for heat sinks to remove heat from our product. It will quickly remove heat from the source (electronic devices in our case, boolits in your case) and dissipate it to the air. You have to put heat into the mould at an equal or faster rate than it is being lost to the air to keep up the mould heat.

Regards,

Stew

[runfiverun]

i start out with my aluminum molds so hot they will not let the lead solidify and i end up dumping the alloy back into the pot, i then wipe the whole mold down with a dry, clean rag to eliminate/clean any extra oil in the cavities then i cast as fast as i can to keep the heat in the mold.
you will develop a cadence and find the correct temp by watching your boolits color.
shiney is too cold and grainey or white is too hot.
i look for a grey/galvanized color,remember to use some bullplate on top of you mold to keep any lead from sticking to it and galling the mold [i use anti-sieze when i don't have bullplate] but don't get any into the cavities.
once you find the happy spot and the boolits are filling out well and have the look they should fall out of the mold pretty easily.

[BABore]

Burch,

I run that 50/50 mix at 700 to 750F. The guys above are correct, the mold is not hot enough. Most fillout and wrinkle problems are from lack of mold block heat, not pot temp. I dip the corner of the mold and sprue plate end in the pot for about 20-30 seconds. The first casts will come out severly frosted and almost look galvanized. It may take the sprue 10-15 seconds to solidify. I use a high speed fan to cool the sprue and blocks once I have the cadence down. Work the mold down from too hot to just right over the next several casts. When you get where you want, note the time it takes for the sprue to solidify and change color. Try to match that time throughout your casting session. I look for about a 3-4 second time here. I then cool the sprue in front of the fan for 3-4 seconds, dump the boolits, then hold the open mold in the fan for 3-4 seconds. If you start getting small sections of bands that seem slightly rounded and have a frosty appearance, cool the mold more as it's overheating.

I test cast new 1C molds most every weekend. These are usually new designs I'm proofing. The blocks are cleaned 3-4 times with lacuer thinner first, then with brake cleaner and a tooth brush twice. About 60% of the time they will cast good boolits on their first throw when preheated as described above. The other 40% have to be almost overheated to cast well. At this point I cheat and lightly smoke the cavities. That works most every time. On occasion I may get a really stubborn, PITA mold that has to be recleaned a couple times before it gives up the fight. That's rare, but I did have one of those on Saturday. Once they start throwing good, then they always seem to after that.

Try warming up the blocks well first, then lightly smoke them if they still give you trouble.

[Ricochet]

Oil of Olay's supposed to be good for preventing wrinkles.

[Tazman1602]

I was thinking the same thing but after 10 - 15 bullets shouldn`t it be up to temp ?

One way to find out Burch, just keep on throwing them until they get frosty, that way you know you're to hot and you can back off a bit but it sure sounds like the mold isn't hot enough. Also make sure the mold is clean and doesn't have anything in the cavities, wash it out in the sink (COLD...........) with hot water, soap and an old toothbrush then just cast until they frost and see how that works. Then you can back off a bit on your casting timing...

Art

[Tazman1602]

Oil of Olay's supposed to be good for preventing wrinkles.

Doesn't work, it's a marketing trick.......................

[dualsport]

I keep a plumber's torch handy to preheat ingots before they go in the pot. It speeds things up but mostly I want to make sure there's no moisture in my ingots. Would it be ok to preheat the mold with the torch? I have both iron and aluminum molds. My new cruise missile mold is being really stubborn.

[lwknight]

With 2.5% tin I get good casts at as low as 620 degrees while the pot recovers from my adding more ingots. No one needs 750 degrees to cast lead/tin with or without antomony.
If you cast 12 times as fast as you can and the spru plate is barely setting up the spru and the boolits are dropping out frosty and still wrinkled, its because of of an oil film of some sort in the mold.
You know if your mold is too cold when the boolits come out shiny bright like chrome. Which is great as long as it has good fill and no wrinkles.

[burch]

Definalty a too cold mold issue. Bullets are turning out much better now. Thank you all very much. :p

Burch

[Tazman1602]

Definalty a too cold mold issue. Bullets are turning out much better now. Thank you all very much. :p

Burch

WOO-HOO!..................but:

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/Tazman1602/worthless.gif

[burch]

Here ya go fellas. Not perfect yet but i`m thinking after a few castings this mold is gonna be a winner. I`m gonna load these up and see how they do. The camera makes `em look worst than they are. I`m also gonna do another cleaning on this mold with some Comet and the wifes toothbrush. LOL !!!!

:cbpour:

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t127/dpcburch/th_IMGA0774.jpg (http://s159.photobucket.com/albums/t127/dpcburch/?action=view&current=IMGA0774.jpg)

[BABore]

Burch

If you casted those from 50/50 WW-Pb alloy, did you water drop them? If you did, I would suggest waiting at least a week for them to cure and harden evenly. That's about the minimum time I've found. Longer is better for serious accuracy trials. 357Maximum and myself have found that with WD boolits, you can pretty much work up to any max jacketed data (plus) for an equivilent weight bullet. H335 is a real winner as well as BLC-2 and 3031. I've never tried them air cooled as I had a need for speed.

Let us know how they work out.

[burch]

Yes these are water dropped and thanks for the waiting tip, I didn`t know that. I`m planning on running these at 1800 fps max outta my Marlin 336 - 35 Rem. At this maximum speed will I have to GC `em ? My bore dia. is .354-.355 and I can size `em at .358

[Tazman1602]

Here ya go fellas. Not perfect yet but i`m thinking after a few castings this mold is gonna be a winner. I`m gonna load these up and see how they do. The camera makes `em look worst than they are. I`m also gonna do another cleaning on this mold with some Comet and the wifes toothbrush. LOL !!!!

:cbpour:



Hey man those look GREAT!!

Art

[jtaylor1960]

If the bullets aren't frosted I'd say you still need more heat.What is the BTU rating on your furnace? I recently went from one rated at 25,000 to one rated at 60,000 and boy what a difference.All my molds just seem to work better.

[lwknight]

I think a slightly frosty flat finish makes the best casting

[BABore]

Yes these are water dropped and thanks for the waiting tip, I didn`t know that. I`m planning on running these at 1800 fps max outta my Marlin 336 - 35 Rem. At this maximum speed will I have to GC `em ? My bore dia. is .354-.355 and I can size `em at .358

Yes, you'll want to gas check them for that speed. We were driving the same boolit/ alloy well over 2,000 fps with outstanding accuracy. Your groove diameter seems aweful tight for a Marlin. Have you checked for bore constrictions? They are common in Marlins. I size to slip fit into a fired case. This fills the throat and helps control the boolit base prior to it getting fully in the bore.

As long as your boolits are fully filled out and to size, don't worry about them being frosty. Mine never are using 50/50 alloy and seldom were with straight WW's. I try to run my ladle pot at the lowest temperature that will consistently cast good boolits. Lower heat means less or slower dross buildup and possible inclusions. It will also produce the biggest boolit with less out-of-roundness. These long, 6.5mm Loverin boolits were ladle poured with 50/50 at a little over 700F.

[357maximum]

I have never seen a marlin 35 that tight in all areas of the bore. When you slugged it did you feel any tight spots byt the stampings/barrel bands? Sounds like a constriction to me..wow.

I would start with measuring a fired case as Babs has pointed out already. I shoot the 360-220 basically unsized and just lubed/checked in an oversize die in my pre micro marlin 35's.

[burch]

Explain, bore constriction and i`ll recheck everything. I used a .375 lead round ball. I honestly didn`t feel anything out of the ordinary but i`ll do it agin to be sure. I used some case lube on the ball.

[vulture47]

You have to remember that the steal handles are sucking a lot of that heat out of the aluminum mold to begin with so like everyone says, more heat on the mold, if you get too much you will know it. Good luck.

[docone31]

Use dish soap. It doesn't take up that much room in the bore.
The obstruction will be felt by the ball, suddenly slowing down after it enters the bore.
No bore is perfect, you will feel it -----go----then drag, then -----go--- drag --go.
With my Enfield, I had to guess at the size, then on my patched loads, I smeared valve compound. I fire lapped the barrel.
Much better.

[357maximum]

Explain, bore constriction and i`ll recheck everything. I used a .375 lead round ball. I honestly didn`t feel anything out of the ordinary but i`ll do it agin to be sure. I used some case lube on the ball.

Pound your slug all the way through

Relube it with vaseline or similar

reinsert it into the muzzle by aligning the land/grooves to your slug

Push it through again and mark your rod with a sharpie when you feel a tight spot.

Lay the rod on the barrel and see where the tight spots are


Normally the constictions in a lever gun are at dovetails/mag hangers/ and the writing on the barrel. If you have constricitons...do a search on beartooth bullets site on "firelapping"............it works when it is needed.

[BABore]

Explain, bore constriction and i`ll recheck everything. I used a .375 lead round ball. I honestly didn`t feel anything out of the ordinary but i`ll do it agin to be sure. I used some case lube on the ball.

I like using a hollow egg fishing sinker, the soft lead ones as there are some harder ones on the market now. Being egg shaped they start easily. The hollow through hole allows someplace for the lead to upset into rather than giving you any springback. With a cleaned, lightly oiled bore, pound a lightly oiled sinker all the way through, from muzzle to breech. I use a plastic or wood mallet to start it til it's flush with the muzzle where it usually cuts a nice ring of lead. Then I use a plastic punch to get it down the bore an inch or so. From there it's a close fitting steel rod that has been ringed or fully covered with electrical tape. I pound them through with a 3-4 lb hammer using the inertia to push it through. Little taps, with a light hammer, can upset the slug more than necessary and give a false reading. Use a good micrometer and measure the slug in several places. This full pass slug will have been sized down to the smallest portion of the bore. In Marlins, it's common to have constrictions at the dovetail cuts, roll markings, and barrel thread areas. Where they are is not absolutely necessary to know right know.

To determine if you do have any constrictions, use a second egg sinker. Do this one the same way, except when you have it just below the muzzle end, drive it right back out from the breech. Measure it and compare the dimensions to your first slug. If this second slug is bigger than the first one, then you have some constrictions. If you doubt your technique during any step in the slugging operations, do a second set for comparision by all means. It does take some experience to get the "feel". down

I usually consider any constriction of 0.0005" or less to be inconsiquential. It won't take long to shoot out with jacketed or some hearty cleaning with JB Bore Cleaner. If your getting more than that, then I look to firelapping. Assuming you've never done this, I would highly recommend a call to Marshall Stanton, at Beartooth Bullets. Give him your information and measurements and order one his lapping kits with the manual. Once you have the kit, you'll never have to buy anything else for other guns, if needed. There's plenty of lapping compound for 10-15 guns and you can cast your own boolits later on. It's well worth the $35-$40 for the first time. I would avoid any of the Tubb's lapping kits or any with bullets harder than 10-12 bhn. Hard bullets/boolits have a certain amount of springback which defeats the purpose of progressively lapping from breech to muzzle and achieving a slightly tapered bore.

If you have any doubts, do some posting on MarlinOwners forum. There are a bunch of people there you have had to lap there Marlins when needed. I've never had a firelapped barrel shoot worst than before. In fact they have all shot way better.

[armyrat1970]

I gotta Lee 20lb bottom pour pot.
I turn it up all the way. I add zinc to my melt.
Flows nice as could be.
A little zinc, not much. With paper patching, zinc is no issue. I find the hard castings desireable.

Well I have to say I have had problems with zinc contamination in my alloy and this is the first time I ever read about adding zinc to your alloy. Not something I would do.

[wheezengeezer]

Well I have to say I have had problems with zinc contamination in my alloy and this is the first time I ever read about adding zinc to your alloy. Not something I would do.

I assume the PP bullet has smooth sides and therefore will not have any filling issues?

[armyrat1970]

I assume the PP bullet has smooth sides and therefore will not have any filling issues?

Actually they looked like chewed up bubble gum and clogged my spout on my Lee 10lb bottom pour. And I was casting with high temps. Took a lot of work to get the pot clean. Hope I never get any zinc in my alloy again. None.

[HammerMTB]

docone31
I gotta Lee 20lb bottom pour pot.
I turn it up all the way. I add zinc to my melt.
Flows nice as could be.
A little zinc, not much. With paper patching, zinc is no issue. I find the hard castings desireable.



Well I have to say I have had problems with zinc contamination in my alloy and this is the first time I ever read about adding zinc to your alloy. Not something I would do.

I noticed that when I read it too, but figured docone meant tin, not zinc.

[chemist308]

I have this issue as well. Do wrinkles affect accuracy? Do they shoot just as well?

[docone31]

Nope, zinc.
When I first started casting, I had a lot of wrinkles. I thought the pictures I saw were photos and not actual castings.
As time went by, and my heat got more under control, my technique got more consistant, my castings got smoother and smoother.
I am not sure how they affect accuracy. By the time I got any kind of pattern at all, my casting had improved to where I had no wrinkles.
I do incorporate zinc in a lot of blends I use. The trick is to blend lead into the zinc, rather than blend zinc into the lead.
I got miserable oatmeal crud, plugged spouts, I got it all. I found my mix, and it works with my paper patching. I only have 200yds available, so I have no clue what it will do past that range.
I have not fired zinc blend in non-patched loads.

[lwknight]

I'm glad someone is working with zinc in boolits. By the time my grandchildren take up shooting and casting , lead may be a thing of the past like asbestos.

[runfiverun]

zinc is soluble in lead and lead alloys.
up to 1.6% easily and can go slightly higher.
nothing wrong with actually using zinc as a hardner,cheap too.

[jlchucker]

A while ago there was a thread about using Kroil on molds, both old and new. I tried it on a brand-new group-buy 311041 6-cavity aluminum mold and found that it took several tries before the wrinkles went away. Like others have said, usually those wrinkles are the sign of not enough heat--either because you've just started pouring into the mold or because your melted alloy isn't hot enough. Aluminum molds heat up fast--so I was kind of mystified why I got so many wrinkes after using Kroil. It didn't happen with my Lyman or RCBS molds. I finally reasoned that it was because the aluminum mold was brand new-- and the other (iron) molds are ones that I'd been using for years.

[burch]

I have never seen a marlin 35 that tight in all areas of the bore. When you slugged it did you feel any tight spots byt the stampings/barrel bands? Sounds like a constriction to me..wow.

I would start with measuring a fired case as Babs has pointed out already. I shoot the 360-220 basically unsized and just lubed/checked in an oversize die in my pre micro marlin 35's.

I did find some constriction from the breech to the barrel band. I cleaned it again and my bore dia. came out to be .358 so that`s a good thing. Should I size my bullet to .358 or should I shoot the .360 dia. that my molds is dropping ? I have some bullets Muffinman sent me ( thanks again Muffinman [smilie=s:) to try out while I was waiting on my mold to arrive. I was checking the fit on his gas checks and they seem come off pretty easy. ( no offense meant just curious ) Is this normal ? and the reason i`m asking is what happens when you fire it ? Will the GC come off in flight ?

burch :redneck:

[armyrat1970]

I did find some constriction from the breech to the barrel band. I cleaned it again and my bore dia. came out to be .358 so that`s a good thing. Should I size my bullet to .358 or should I shoot the .360 dia. that my molds is dropping ? I have some bullets Muffinman sent me ( thanks again Muffinman [smilie=s:) to try out while I was waiting on my mold to arrive. I was checking the fit on his gas checks and they seem come off pretty easy. ( no offense meant just curious ) Is this normal ? and the reason i`m asking is what happens when you fire it ? Will the GC come off in flight ?

burch :redneck:

If your bore is sizing to .358 you should shoot the as dropped boolits of .360. If the GC's come off in flight should be no big deal as they have done their job after the boolit leaves the bore anyway.

[Bret4207]

You don;t want the GC dropping off if you can help it. If they are loose, as in easy taken off with your fingers, after sizing you try annealing them. Just float then in your melt till they get nice and hot and blackish and then let them cool is a safe place. That takes the work hardening out of the check material and offers less "spring back" when you size giving you a tighter fit.

If you get o shooting heavier loads it usually isn't an issue because the compression of the boolit sort of irons the GC on to the base. As long as it's square to the length and stays on you're good.

Good thread guys! Well done.

[burch]

I`m using the 45% LLA, 45% JPW, 10% Mineral Spirits mix I found on the LUBE section. Can I lube these first and add the GC by hand without sizing since i`m wanting to shoot `em at the .360 my mold is dropping `em at ?

[runfiverun]

measure the outer diameter of your gas checks.
if they are larger than your boolit they could open the case and you will have poor retention of the boolit.
no worries though it makes it much easier to hold your 360 size when you size them on.
you could also just use a check seater on your lyman or rcbs, or a lee push through at 360.
if they are closer to 360 or 359 a drop of super glue etc, will keep them on.
a slip fit in the bbl [cut rifling] is not a worry either, i size several of my cast the same size as my bbl slugs, 358 bbl in my 358 win and 358 sized boolits,323 in my 8 mauser.

[muffinman]

I use a .360 lyman sizing die and the infamous purple voodoo lube. Burch's question about loose checks got me to thinking. I have been using old lyman and newer hornaday checks. The hornadays do seem some what loose. Have not had any accuracy problems with either and I run them from 1900 to 2250 fps. Is this anything to worry about? Does not seem to be.

[Bret4207]

The pressure to move that boolit at 1900 fps is pushing the GC firmly against the base. As long as nothing lets or causes it to fall off in flight you're good. If the base swells at all that makes it even more secure and the barrel works to "crimp" the check a bit.

[armyrat1970]

I`m using the 45% LLA, 45% JPW, 10% Mineral Spirits mix I found on the LUBE section. Can I lube these first and add the GC by hand without sizing since i`m wanting to shoot `em at the .360 my mold is dropping `em at ?

If you have a sizer what? I can seat GC with my Lee sizers without running them through. Just insert the boolit with the GC in place and push through till seated then use a wooden dowel to tap the boolit back out. No need to run them fully through the sizer just to seat the GC. That's with a Lee and don't know about others.

[burch]

If you have a sizer what? I can seat GC with my Lee sizers without running them through. Just insert the boolit with the GC in place and push through till seated then use a wooden dowel to tap the boolit back out. No need to run them fully through the sizer just to seat the GC. That's with a Lee and don't know about others.


I was wondering if this would work or not. I also have the Lee push thru dies.

[armyrat1970]

The pressure to move that boolit at 1900 fps is pushing the GC firmly against the base. As long as nothing lets or causes it to fall off in flight you're good. If the base swells at all that makes it even more secure and the barrel works to "crimp" the check a bit.

Bret, if the GC falls off in flight does it really have an effect on the accuracy of the boolit? I have read pros and cons about this but it would seem that once the boolit leaves the muzzle and is in flight it would not matter if the GC fell off. But than again with the GC falling off it could disrupt the air flow around the base and hence the arodynamics of the boolit in flight. Does it make that much of a difference? Now talking strickly about GCs and nothing else.