trouble with 777

[Aegis]

This morning I had trouble with 777 fffg. Is it temp sensitive? This morning 2 of my loads lacked power. They sounded very weak. Temp this morning was 18. I sighted it in a couple of weeks ago when it was 50. It was fine. My ml is a 45 cal and I normally load 60grs of 777 fffg.

[Doc Highwall]

Do you use pellets or loose powder. I have been at the range when a person shooting pellets (Pyrodex) some of them were not burning in the gun but looked like tracers going down range. I don't think it makes much difference between 777 or Pyrodex as they are both made by Hodgon and I am making the assumption that the process of making the pellets is the same, causing burning outside the gun.

[mooman76]

Were they your first shot's that were weak. Sometimes a little oil is left in the barrel from cleaning and the first load will absorb it and fire weak. I always fire off a couple caps in an empty barrel before I load to dry the barrel out. I would be more inclinded to think possibly weak caps or weak cap with powder in combination to the cold weather if it wasn't your first shots. If it shot fine after you shoot a couple shots and warmed the barrel up I wouldn't worry about it too much. Also could it be a little condinsation you picked up between going from cold to warm and back to cold?

[big boar]

How old is the can of 777, I read an article about Pyrodex deteriorating over time. I use to have a lot of problems with Pyrodex (RS), expecially in the cooler weather. I now use BP and all the misfires/hangfires have gone. I have to say I miss the ease of cleanup using Pyrodex.

[405]

Sounds like some of the troubles I had with trying Pyrodex 30 years or so ago.... when it first came out. Quit using it then and never looked back. I quit so early never tried the Pellets- hee haw. Probably saved a lot of frustration there too. My other experience with Pyrodex was cleaning and hard deposits! Miserable. The other problem I had with Pyrodex was the claim that it was self lubricating as you shoot. Hog wash, gimmicky, false marketing from Hodgdon. Oh well all in the distant past. If 777 is in anyway similar to Pyrodex as a blackpowder substitute it will do such things in lower temps when the humidity is high. It takes on water vapor, chemically binds with it, then becomes more difficult to light and get a full, efficient burn. I know that yet another so-called miracle BP substitute (currently marketed by another brand name) is also hygroscopic, takes on atmospheric water and goes south. Hmmmm, then there's always real BP.... seems to work.

[Aegis]

I'm useing loose powder. I bought the powder back in sept. I have used about half of the bottle. I have shot it about 70 times. I put it in the truck last night and I ran a patch thru it this morning before loading. When I cleaned it, the first patch was a bear to get it down the bore. It had a tan residue on it. About 3 patches and it was clean.

[357maximum]

The government, hodgdon,gunrag writers, and miracle butters have done more injustice to the muzzleloading crowd than I could spell out properly without cursing.

As long as real BP, some form of fat/tallow, beeswax, water, and ballistol are available we can get by their BS and be happy.

I simply hated muzzleloading with pyrodox, and 777 is not much better. I will save the filters from editing my typing and shut up now.

[big boar]

Aegis, I forgot to ask, are you using an inline or a side caplock? Most guys I've know using inlines have had very good accuracy and no ignition problems. I really like the inlines for those reasons but I have to admit they don't compare to using a caplock (in MY opinion). Sam Fadala, a well known writer, said to avoid ignition problems he fires several (like 5 or more) primers before loading to make sure everything is dry and the flashhole is open. Last thing, just because a load sounds mild doesn't always mean it is. I've fired over a thick blanket of snow (8"+) and the sound was muffled a lot. Shot well though. Did it group well on the target?

[Lead Fred]

I was given a can of Pyrodex, so Im playing with it in 45/70.

When its gone, Ill go back to using Goex, Like Ive been for decades.

Stock up now, while you can. We did.

[Aegis]

It's an inline with a 209 primer. The first round hit the ground 50 yrds short. It broke the ice over a puddle of water. No ideal where the second one went.
It groups well with 60 grns of fffg. More than that and it blows the over powder cup apart on the sabot.
I'm think of trying real black powder.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

777 and pyrodex are not even similar as to their composition. I've never shot either, except to figure out how to make dead inlines fire , at least to unload, for their owners. BvT

[big boar]

Lead Fred, you said to stock up while you can, do you have info on Black getting hard to find?

[boommer]

Black is still easy to find and get. Lets not get any stories going and creating panic like we have seen with powder and primers and components that we have seen. I know that reloading has jumped 500% or so, but the *****-ders have really drove the prices up and dried up supply, just like when Slick Willy got into office. l watched on these gun sites when OBAMA -One-Big-Ass-Mistake- America got into office and these guys went into *****-ding components and taking pictures of there stock piles(DORKS) yes the wars has something to do with it ,but I had no problems getting components 2 years ago.

[405]

To me real BP is still the most reliable and easiest to deal with of all the suitable ML propellents. As to what the exact chemical composition of each substitute may be? no matter, they all seem to suffer a few of shortcomings. Can be hard to light, can be negatively affected by temp/humidity/atmospheric conditions, the companies seem to change them or go out of business on a regular basis.... and for me they create more cleaning problems than real BP.

Oh well, in view of the current trends may not have to worry about such things as which "magic" substitute powder. So-called muzzleloaders may simply become single shot, high powered rifles using something like Varget, 4350 or V V N560.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/black_powder_substitute_roundup.htm

[StarMetal]

To me real BP is still the most reliable and easiest to deal with of all the suitable ML propellents. As to what the exact chemical composition of each substitute may be? no matter, they all seem to suffer a few of shortcomings. Can be hard to light, can be negatively affected by temp/humidity/atmospheric conditions, the companies seem to change them or go out of business on a regular basis.... and for me they create more cleaning problems than real BP.

Oh well, in view of the current trends may not have to worry about such things as which "magic" substitute powder. So-called muzzleloaders may simply become single shot, high powered rifles using something like Varget, 4350 or V V N560.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/black_powder_substitute_roundup.htm

Read this: http://www.randywakeman.com/bh209.htm

Hawks hasn't even written about it yet.

And you are wrong about clean up, the Blackhorn you don't even have clean and 777 is easier to clean then BP.


Joe

[357maximum]

And you are wrong about clean up, the Blackhorn you don't even have clean and 777 is easier to clean then BP.


Joe

The blackhorn should load itself for the price. I do however know alot of guys that like it under plastic in their inlines. It is smokeless powder with smoke added..pure and simple.

777 is sugar based and cleanup is definately NOT easier than real black, and ignition problems in traditional wares are a real common event.....sorry Joe but I have to hit the BS button on the cleanup scenario.

Alot of guys feel that people totoing REAL BP are snobs....not always the case...some of them are simply trying to make your life easier...it is up to you whether or not you pay heed to their words.

[StarMetal]

The blackhorn should load itself for the price. I do however know alot of guys that like it under plastic in their inlines. It is smokeless powder with smoke added..pure and simple.

777 is sugar based and cleanup is definately NOT easier than real black, and ignition problems in traditional wares are a real common event.....sorry Joe but I have to hit the BS button on the cleanup scenario.

Alot of guys feel that people totoing REAL BP are snobs....not always the case...some of them are simply trying to make your life easier...it is up to you whether or not you pay heed to their words.

Mike,

All I can say is you haven't shot lots of 777. I even shoot it out of my Ruger Old Army, which is more messier then a rifle, and clean up is a snap and breeze. I clean it with hot water and soap. Nothing to it. In my line and Ruger it leaves no fouling and all I see is a coating that makes the bore look kind of ash grey. I can say about the same thing for Pyrodex too.

One more thing, with 777 I can keep shooting until I get tired of it. I'm waiting to try Blackhorn but it's not available here yet.

Only thing I agree with you on it's sugar based. It's not as hydroscopic as Pyrodex.

I don't know what to call on your post.

Joe

[357maximum]

Mike,

All I can say is you haven't shot lots of 777. I even shoot it out of my Ruger Old Army, which is more messier then a rifle, and clean up is a snap and breeze. I clean it with hot water and soap. Nothing to it. In my line and Ruger it leaves no fouling and all I see is a coating that makes the bore look kind of ash grey. I can say about the same thing for Pyrodex too.

One more thing, with 777 I can keep shooting until I get tired of it. I'm waiting to try Blackhorn but it's not available here yet.

Only thing I agree with you on it's sugar based. It's not as hydroscopic as Pyrodex.

I don't know what to call on your post.

Joe


You are absolutely correct Joe....I have not shot "lots" of it. I used 2 of the 4 pounds I bought and gave the 3rd pound away..I used the 4th pound for celebrating the 4th of July. [smilie=1:

Pyrodox.....I shot a small buck a few years back at dawn while using it...immediately reloaded the rifle and continued hunting. It had light rust forming in it when I got home after dark that night....pyrodox...not in my bores....no way no how. 777 I could proably live with if I was forced to. If pyrodox was the only thing available...I would quit muzzleloading...pure and simple.

I am glad you like it.....carry on as will I.

[StarMetal]

Here's some pictures after shooting lots of 777 from my Ruger Old Army. Now you all tell me it's that dirty.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/RugerOA2.jpghttp://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/RugerOA3.jpghttp://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/RugerOA4.jpghttp://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/RugerOA5.jpghttp://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/RugerOA6.jpg

Now I ask you, does that look like a lot of fouling? Does it look hard to clean? Shooting BP with this revolver starts to tie the hammer up in the frame with BP crud after 24 shots.

Now I'll post a picture of how hot the flame cutting of Pyrodex is and why I won't use it for anything anymore in my BP guns.
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/TopStraJPG2.jpg
Notice too the erosion on the rear edge of the forcing cone.

Just because Mike shot two pounds doesn't mean he had extensive experience with it and how do we know what technique he uses to load it? It's different then BP and it has to be loaded correctly to burn correctly. At first I thought he may have used the pellets, but when he said he bought four pounds I assumed it's the loose powder, which I use. I don't use pellets at all.

BP is eventually going to be near impossible you buy and one, if he wants to continue shooting BP arms must make a decision on what he wants to shoot from them.

Yes I will continue to use 777 out of my bp arms until I test the Blackhorn and see what it offers. I will not shoot Pyrodex anymore. The 777 will let me drive 200 grain SWC 45 acp bullets just under 1200 fps from my Ruger. You can't do that with BP.

Joe

[357maximum]

Joe

I was shooting 777 out of 2-cva and 1- TC sidelock rifles...they all had trouble lighting it off reliably. My fouling was terrible and resembled a black/brown candy apple coating. It was a bear to get out.

My rifles look just like the bore pic of you pistol when I use 2f,3f swiss, wano, or 3F goex. The 2f goex gives me a bit more fouling but it is real soft fouling. I can quite literally shoot real BP in them all day in my rifles. I no longer own any BP revolvers. I had an old colt and a ruger....a feller wanted them a whole lot more than I did one day when I was lusting for a different high dollar toy.

Maybe I just had a bad lot of 777 :groner: as I am sure all 4 cans were of the same vintage as they were bought the same day when it was on substantial sale after season was over.


BP will get to be impossible to buy only if we let it be....insist on the real stuff and quit bending over and accepting replacements would be a great start eh. My somewhat local outlet carries it because people actually buy it, and prefer it over the fake powders. If people only wanted the fake powders ...she would not sell the real stuff.......DO YOU GET WHAT I AM SAYING. Capitalism still works if we can keep the miscriants (sp) fingers out of the jar. The shop owner makes money on real BP or she would not go through the trouble (BATFE) of carrying it now would she?

[StarMetal]

Joe

I was shooting 777 out of 2-cva and 1- TC sidelock rifles...they all had trouble lighting it off reliably. My fouling was terrible and resembled a black/brown candy apple coating. It was a bear to get out.

My rifles look just like the bore pic of you pistol when I use 2f,3f swiss, wano, or 3F goex. The 2f goex gives me a bit more fouling but it is real soft fouling. I can quite literally shoot real BP in them all day in my rifles. I no longer own any BP revolvers. I had an old colt and a ruger....a feller wanted them a whole lot more than I did one day when I was lusting for a different high dollar toy.

Maybe I just had a bad lot of 777 :groner: as I am sure all 4 cans were of the same vintage as they were bought the same day when it was on substantial sale after season was over.


BP will get to be impossible to buy only if we let it be....insist on the real stuff and quit bending over and accepting replacements would be a great start eh. My somewhat local outlet carries it because people actually buy it, and prefer it over the fake powders. If people only wanted the fake powders ...she would not sell the real stuff.......DO YOU GET WHAT I AM SAYING. Capitalism still works if we can keep the miscriants (sp) fingers out of the jar. The shop owner makes money on real BP or she would not go through the trouble (BATFE) of carrying it now would she?

Mike,

That is amazing. Amazing. I've never heard anything like what you got. In that one muzzle picture you can see the metal, it didn't even leave that ash coating. The bore pic really looks worse then it is. Normally with BP I'm lucky to get 24 shots from the ROA before she starts bulking.

What I've noticed with my 777 is it's much much more powerful then Pyrodex. When I shoot my 50 cal inline I get kind of a high powered rifle crack rather then the shotgun boom. The velocity is up, it's more accurate. The one thing it says to do and I do is make sure you pack the bullet/ball as tight and hard against the powder as possible.

Now I do wonder if you got bad powder. I tried some of that Black Canyon many years ago and it does what you say your 777 is. In fact it got hard in the bottle and I had to throw it out. Not that he's the holy grail of BP but Randy Wakeman swore by 777 until Blackhorn 209 came out.

Joe

[405]

Joe

BP will get to be impossible to buy only if we let it be....insist on the real stuff and quit bending over and accepting replacements would be a great start eh. My somewhat local outlet carries it because people actually buy it, and prefer it over the fake powders. If people only wanted the fake powders ...she would not sell the real stuff.......DO YOU GET WHAT I AM SAYING. Capitalism still works if we can keep the miscriants (sp) fingers out of the jar. The shop owner makes money on real BP or she would not go through the trouble (BATFE) of carrying it now would she?

375M,
There is more wisdom in that than many realize. Thanks for posting what a lot are afraid to post and some may not even be aware of.

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

I am with 357Maximum and 405 on this issue. I jumped on the BP substitute bandwagon decades ago when Pyrodex first came out. After all, if a product is new, it has to be better, right?!!! Of course, this is not always the case. I came full circle a few years back and now shoot only the real McCoy. I have had similar corrosion issues with Pyrodex and 777 as have been described. The subs certainly create less shot-to-shot fouling than real BP, but must say that I find real BP better for my purposes and shooting. Real BP never goes bad on the shelf. Most, if not all, the BP subs will go bad over several years. I find clean-up no easier (of course I am not including Blackhorn in this discussion) with the BP subs than with with real BP. The BP generally costs less, too. What is not to love? Now if one of y'all out there likes to shoot the subs, that is great. I just do not think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

[StarMetal]

Bunch of horse hockey in this thread. First let me say there wouldn't be any substitutes if many folks weren't fed up with BP. I often wonder how many of you really like BP only because it's the original propellant and for no other reasons. Any of you that say you love cleaning your BP firearms are lairs.

Now as for getting BP back on the shelves....ha ha ha ha. Fat chance. The largest reason I see that more and more dealers won't stock it is because of the regulations on it. Why go through all the hassle and hoops that you have none of with subs? I believe BP took on another regulation with the 9-11 event too. You can list this rant about getting it back on the shelf along with busting the Hazard shipping fee and UPS ridiculous high shipping charges on handguns.

I've tried most all the subs except for Blackhorn because it's not in my area yet. Jim Shockeys powder is the biggest joke out there. That stuff is junk along with the old Black Canyon. I hear nothing but good about Blackhorn except that it's hard to ignite, thus the 209 on the end of it's moniker. I explained what I don't like about Pyrodex....it's hot, very hot, and more corrosive then BP in my mind. Funny how many of you found the same thing as 357M with 777 and I know of no one that has. Now I have lots of friends that won't shoot Pyrodex.

While were on people loving BP why did Savage come out with a smokeless muzzleloader.

Sometimes I wonder why you fellows don't buy an island or some big parcel of land and go back to no electricity, BP, and kerosene lanterns.

Now before you all think I have gone zonkers I do see a place for BP, like the single shot cartridge rifles, flintlocks, just to name two.

Hey guys:arrow::kidding::kidding::kidding: I'm just pulling your chains.

Joe

[357maximum]

Bunch of horse hockey in this thread. First let me say there wouldn't be any substitutes if many folks weren't fed up with BP. I often wonder how many of you really like BP only because it's the original propellant and for no other reasons. Any of you that say you love cleaning your BP firearms are lairs. I do not love cleaning my BP guns...I however do love to shoot them. Shoot them I do, so clean them I must. I cleaned 3 rifles shot with real BP in the same amount of time it took to clean one of them bic disposable inlines fired with 666 + 111. The reason BP subs came into being is that someone thought they could make some money and the feds wanted to save you and the children and get you to eat their free cheese.....no other reasons.

Now as for getting BP back on the shelves....ha ha ha ha. Fat chance. The largest reason I see that more and more dealers won't stock it is because of the regulations on it. Why go through all the hassle and hoops that you have none of with subs? I believe BP took on another regulation with the 9-11 event too. You can list this rant about getting it back on the shelf along with busting the Hazard shipping fee and UPS ridiculous high shipping charges on handguns.
True,it will never be "EASY" again but it will remain available as long as people know how to think for themselves and have the ability to compare how the fakes ignite and cleanup in their traditional equipment. Do not think I am some traditionalist stuck in the past...I shoot a compound bow with aluminum arrows and expandable broadheads right along with my recurves and my longbows with stone heads in the latter two stick slingers.

I've tried most all the subs except for Blackhorn because it's not in my area yet. Jim Shockeys powder is the biggest joke out there. That stuff is junk along with the old Black Canyon. I hear nothing but good about Blackhorn except that it's hard to ignite, thus the 209 on the end of it's moniker. I explained what I don't like about Pyrodex....it's hot, very hot, and more corrosive then BP in my mind. Funny how many of you found the same thing as 357M with 777 and I know of no one that has. Now I have lots of friends that won't shoot Pyrodex.

While were on people loving BP why did Savage come out with a smokeless muzzleloader. Because in general people are lazy and do not want to clean their tools. They also want to keep on shooting a gun similar to their other superdooperearsplitten loudenboomers.

Sometimes I wonder why you fellows don't buy an island or some big parcel of land and go back to no electricity, BP, and kerosene lanterns.Sign me up anytime, I would already likely be there if I had the money and could convince the missus.

Now before you all think I have gone zonkers I do see a place for BP, like the single shot cartridge rifles, flintlocks, just to name two.

Hey guys:arrow::kidding::kidding::kidding: I'm just pulling your chains.Somehow that sounds like an afterthought on your part.

Joe


I did not mean to ruffle your tailfeathers Joe...I never said I wanted you to shoot real BP. You can keep doing what you are doing and are free to shoot any substitute you want to.

I personally have never seen to many "substitutes" that were as good as what they replaced. When you truly improve on any given product you do not generally call it a "substitute" . Imagine Paul Mauser calling the model 98 "a good substitute for a model 93". When they invented a good substitute for BlackPowder they called it smokeless powder. All this other stuff is just the governement and companies "letting" you choose the path of least resistance while you enhance their greedy little palms. There one sure thing you can count on as long as humans walk the Earth and that is pure evil greed. Not a one of us is above it 100% of the time.

[1874Sharps]

Well said, 357Max. I believe Starmetal has also said that reloading manuals are wrong about the 45 ACP headspacing on the mouth and therefore should not be roll crimped except to remove the case mouth bell, but that is another story.

[StarMetal]

I did not mean to ruffle your tailfeathers Joe...I never said I wanted you to shoot real BP. You can keep doing what you are doing and are free to shoot any substitute you want to.

I personally have never seen to many "substitutes" that were as good as what they replaced. When you truly improve on any given product you do not generally call it a "substitute" . Imagine Paul Mauser calling the model 98 "a good substitute for a model 93". When they invented a good substitute for BlackPowder they called it smokeless powder. All this other stuff is just the governement and companies "letting" you choose the path of least resistance while you enhance their greedy little palms. There one sure thing you can count on as long as humans walk the Earth and that is pure evil greed. Not a one of us is above it 100% of the time.

Mike...no ruffled feathers here my friend. Although I don't like to clean BP I would prefer it and am seriously thinking of just buying it by volume/case. I do want to try that Blackhorn though as it's gotten very good review and a major powder company makes it..Ramshot. I've noticed the subs that aren't form major companies are the ones that perform the worse. I feel Jim Shocky has to be lying to sell that powder of his because it flat out sucks!!! No velocity consistently what so ever. I'd have to be nuts to use that powder on a big dangerous game animal as he claims he does. I wonder. This new Blackhorn is suppose to be consistent, powerful, non fouling, and 100 percent you don't have to clean it....just like smokeless. Too bad they don't make a sub for flintlocks.

Joe

[bob208]

now i guess i have been called a lair. i have shot for many years real b-p in flint,precuession and black powder cartrage. never had any problems shooting it or cleaning up after took home many prizes. the ones i did not get i did not lose to someone shooting a subistute powder.

why did savage bring out that inline in smokless. well it is because some people are too stuped to shoot a real muzzleloader.

[357maximum]

Bob

You may have mistaken some of the bantering between Joe and myself the wrong way. Friends tend to slap each other a round a bit for effect. I do not believe he was aiming at you. Joe knows that BP is better...he just cannot openly admit it.:lol:

Sharps
As far as the 45 thing...Joe may have been merely suffering from a trmporary rectal cranial inversion when he was typing. ;-)

[StarMetal]

now i guess i have been called a lair. i have shot for many years real b-p in flint,precuession and black powder cartrage. never had any problems shooting it or cleaning up after took home many prizes. the ones i did not get i did not lose to someone shooting a subistute powder.

why did savage bring out that inline in smokless. well it is because some people are too stuped to shoot a real muzzleloader.

You guessed wrong Bob, nobody called you a liar. Just like 357max stated we're just funning with one another, but I'll have to admit he's a little delusional from too much BP fumes and the fumes from making all his lubes. :Fire:

Joe

[357maximum]

You guessed wrong Bob, nobody called you a liar. Just like 357max stated we're just funning with one another, but I'll have to admit he's a little delusional from too much BP fumes and the fumes from making all his lubes. :Fire:

Joe

wrong again Joe...a great big ol snort of ballistol cleans all the fumes out of the ol noggin and then you are good to go again.

Define "too MUCH"

[Willbird]

Read this: http://www.randywakeman.com/bh209.htm

Hawks hasn't even written about it yet.

And you are wrong about clean up, the Blackhorn you don't even have clean and 777 is easier to clean then BP.


Joe

I think 777 makes more fouling than BP, however it is a mostly harmelss fouling, so that is why I agree with Joe that it is easier to clean up. 2-3 patches wet with water, 1 dry one and 1 wet with 92% rubbing alky is how I clean my inline to reload for hunting with 777 after firing a few shots.

I have some BH209 to try, looks very promising...

The thing that BH209 and 777 offer over BP is more velocity and energy........pyrocrap IMHO offers LESS energy than BP, and the fouling is not a harmless fouling.

If you think BH209 COSTS.....look at what pellet users are paying (both 777 and pyrocrap pellets), about 2x what bh209 costs per shot.

Pyrodex did offer ONE thing to shooters however, a muzzle loader propellant that is not treated, shipped, or sold as an EXPLOSIVE.......so we can give Hogdon a round of applause for paving the way for a market for the stuff we have today...like 777 and now bh209.

One thing I have learned myself at least twice with my inline....is to NOT pop a 209 cap before loading like we always did with musket cap and #11 cap guns.....the primer residue makes a plastic sabot VERY hard to load. So I just CLEAN everything good, and make sure the flash hole is open, and load the gun...........I have never had a misfire or hangfire with my TC Omega and 777 powder..


Also I can fire the gun once during deer season, and reload it (without cleaning) with 777....leave it sit ONE YEAR....and fire that shot and have it hit within 1" of point of aim at 100 yards, with no rust or corrosion in the gun barrel.....to me that is a HUGE improvement over BP :-).

I did notice using 777 in the 58 caliber rifled musket Joe has now that if the gun was loaded a couple days with 777 even with a top hat cap it would hangfire...but that is a sidelock....when I hunted with that gun I used a duplex charge of black followed by 777 like Hogdon says to do in flint locks.

I do LIKE BP....but not for deer hunting in my inline ML :-).


Bill

[StarMetal]

I think 777 makes more fouling than BP, however it is a mostly harmelss fouling, so that is why I agree with Joe that it is easier to clean up. 2-3 patches wet with water, 1 dry one and 1 wet with 92% rubbing alky is how I clean my inline to reload for hunting with 777 after firing a few shots.

I have some BH209 to try, looks very promising...

The thing that BH209 and 777 offer over BP is more velocity and energy........pyrocrap IMHO offers LESS energy than BP, and the fouling is not a harmless fouling.

If you think BH209 COSTS.....look at what pellet users are paying (both 777 and pyrocrap pellets), about 2x what bh209 costs per shot.

Pyrodex did offer ONE thing to shooters however, a muzzle loader propellant that is not treated, shipped, or sold as an EXPLOSIVE.......so we can give Hogdon a round of applause for paving the way for a market for the stuff we have today...like 777 and now bh209.

One thing I have learned myself at least twice with my inline....is to NOT pop a 209 cap before loading like we always did with musket cap and #11 cap guns.....the primer residue makes a plastic sabot VERY hard to load. So I just CLEAN everything good, and make sure the flash hole is open, and load the gun...........I have never had a misfire or hangfire with my TC Omega and 777 powder..


Also I can fire the gun once during deer season, and reload it (without cleaning) with 777....leave it sit ONE YEAR....and fire that shot and have it hit within 1" of point of aim at 100 yards, with no rust or corrosion in the gun barrel.....to me that is a HUGE improvement over BP :-).

I did notice using 777 in the 58 caliber rifled musket Joe has now that if the gun was loaded a couple days with 777 even with a top hat cap it would hangfire...but that is a sidelock....when I hunted with that gun I used a duplex charge of black followed by 777 like Hogdon says to do in flint locks.

I do LIKE BP....but not for deer hunting in my inline ML :-).


Bill

I agree with Bill mostly except I'm just not getting the gummy fouling/residue with 777. You saw the pics of the ROA. I take the ROA, take the wood grips off, and truthfully can hold it under the hot water in the kitchen sink and that alone just about washes all of what is there off. Then I'll chuck it in the dishwasher, comes out shiney, clean, and dry...then I oil it up, put it away.

I too have left 777 loaded in my inline. I don't get a hang fire and it fires like I had just loaded it. Now I may use a modern inline, but I do not use sabots with any kind of bullet, that is jacketed or lead handgun bullets. I still use the original Maxi Ball.

9-11 put BP on more lists and I feel that helped edge more dealers out of selling because of more restrictions.

I like BP. I grew up with the stuff. I've been fooling with BP since I was about 14 yrs old. Had I been able to easily bought BP I probably would have never been introduced with Hodgdon's subs. I don't believe cleaning a firearm that uses BP is any harder to clean then one that uses smokeless (in fact if you have jacketed fouling in a smokeless firearm it often takes more time to clean it out then cleaning a BP firearm), but I absolutely hate having to introduce water into my firearm and making sure I dry it getting it all out. That includes the lockwork and include having to take the stock off, etc., you guys know what I am talking about. With a smokeless firearm, clean the bore, wipe the gun down with some good preservative oil, put it away.....unless you hunted in the rain/snow or dropped it in a stream.

So that's it, that's all I have. I like 777 so far the best out of the subs, it's consistent, it more powerful, it's clean, and it's listed as non corrosive, but we know it's sugar bases so it does attract moisture, and it doesn't have that hot flame cutting that Pyrodex does. Frankly to tell you the truth I don't understand how Pyrodex got to be such a big hit besides the fact it doesn't has the restrictions that BP does.

Joe

[Willbird]

The only fouling that I get with 777 in my inline (the only gun I have used it in) is in the TC ball start on the muzzle end, and in the "chamber" area where the powder charge sits...never tried it yet in my ruger old army....

With switching to bh209 for hunting I will have some 777 to burn up, so it will see some other uses.

But in trying to sleep something keep turning over in my head, the OP's assertion that he was using a 60 grain charge, and that any more "shredded the sabots". Well 60 grains by VOLUME (with a bp measure) is not much 777..and surely not enough to see the loss in accuracy I see with 777 somewhere between 100 grains (by volume) and the maximum load suggested for the gun. I use 110 grains as a hunting load.

The "science" issue with 777 vs black as I see it is with BP DILUTION of the residue is not enough.....it is still an aggressively hygroscopic residue...where the 777 residue is NOT....it may be SLIGHTLY more hygroscopic than smokeless powder residue, but not enough so to cause rust in a gun barrel inside my house over 1 years time.....and if a quick cleaning removes 95% of it I do not lose any sleep with a modern replica firearm. I would not treat BP fouling that way.

Bill

[StarMetal]

The only fouling that I get with 777 in my inline (the only gun I have used it in) is in the TC ball start on the muzzle end, and in the "chamber" area where the powder charge sits...never tried it yet in my ruger old army....

With switching to bh209 for hunting I will have some 777 to burn up, so it will see some other uses.

But in trying to sleep something keep turning over in my head, the OP's assertion that he was using a 60 grain charge, and that any more "shredded the sabots". Well 60 grains by VOLUME (with a bp measure) is not much 777..and surely not enough to see the loss in accuracy I see with 777 somewhere between 100 grains (by volume) and the maximum load suggested for the gun. I use 110 grains as a hunting load.

The "science" issue with 777 vs black as I see it is with BP DILUTION of the residue is not enough.....it is still an aggressively hygroscopic residue...where the 777 residue is NOT....it may be SLIGHTLY more hygroscopic than smokeless powder residue, but not enough so to cause rust in a gun barrel inside my house over 1 years time.....and if a quick cleaning removes 95% of it I do not lose any sleep with a modern replica firearm. I would not treat BP fouling that way.

Bill

Bill,

Don't quote me to I check if I saved the notes, but in a conversation with Hodgdon they gave me the weight in grains what 100 grains by volume would be....it's I believe 70 something. I'll check see if I have the notes.

Again I only shoot Maxi-Balls so can't comment on sabots. I also set the bullet hard as I can against the powder.

Joe

[Underclocked]

BH209 100 grains by volume =~ 70 grains weight

T7 FFg 100 grains by volume =~ 77.7 grains weight (thus the name)

Pyrodex - ah dun fergittud.

[10 ga]

Ditto, double ditto, on everything 357 maximum has said on this thread!!! HOLY BLACK is very properly named! 10 ga

[Willbird]

Bill,

Don't quote me to I check if I saved the notes, but in a conversation with Hodgdon they gave me the weight in grains what 100 grains by volume would be....it's I believe 70 something. I'll check see if I have the notes.

Again I only shoot Maxi-Balls so can't comment on sabots. I also set the bullet hard as I can against the powder.

Joe

Yea I did have it in the back of my mind that the OP might be using grains of weight....not volume measure equal to grains of BP.

I do know I have weighed and measured 777 and it IS lighter than BP volume for volume.

I have a mold for the REAL 50 caliber bullet I aim to try out one of these days, does felix and alox work ok with 777 ?? I have also wondered if one does just not "feel" the crud ring with a lead bullet ?? Although I did feel it in the 58 rifled musket for sure.

I have only really done extended firing with 777 to the point of accuracy loss with normal 209 primers, before I ever got my hands on any of the WW primers made just for 777

I have pondered more than once just removing the TC ball start altogether..the guy who makes dead center bullets claims it makes the gun more accurate....but he claims a lot of "other" things too :-).

Bill

[StarMetal]

Yea I did have it in the back of my mind that the OP might be using grains of weight....not volume measure equal to grains of BP.

I do know I have weighed and measured 777 and it IS lighter than BP volume for volume.

I have a mold for the REAL 50 caliber bullet I aim to try out one of these days, does felix and alox work ok with 777 ?? I have also wondered if one does just not "feel" the crud ring with a lead bullet ?? Although I did feel it in the 58 rifled musket for sure.

I have only really done extended firing with 777 to the point of accuracy loss with normal 209 primers, before I ever got my hands on any of the WW primers made just for 777

I have pondered more than once just removing the TC ball start altogether..the guy who makes dead center bullets claims it makes the gun more accurate....but he claims a lot of "other" things too :-).

Bill

Bill,

I use the TC Wonderlube on my Maxi's. So far I haven't felt the crud ring. I thought it happened more with the sabots.

Joe

[Willbird]

Here is a picture of some fired sabots...the one on the left is 110 grains of 777 from a clean bbl, the middle one is 110 grains of 777 from a field reloaded rifle, Both of those were using a barnes 240 grain spitfire tmz.

The right hand one is from a gun fouled with 777 firing 120 grains of bh209 behind a 290 grain barnes spitfire tmz, note how much more flare the base of the sabot has from muzzle pressure.

I should get to clean the gun and shoot a few rounds for accuracy this weekend.....next weekend is another 2 day ohio deer gun season.

If I can get equal velocity from a 290 that I get from a 250 I would rather have that extra 40 grains of bullet :-). The test shot with bh209 did not make it through an MSC catalog. Impact velocity should have been roughly 1760 fps.

[Willbird]

The crud ring was sure there with 58 minie balls....it could readily be felt when cleaning the gun after a few shots.

[Willbird]

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.0.cgi

There is a cool ballistics calculation page, it looks as though it will back calculate actual MV from a crono velocity a stated distance away from the muzzle, some seem to use 20' to avoid sabots killing the crono screens.

Bill

[dnorris]

I just want to say Hi to everybody and ask a couple questions. I am new to muzzle loading and just bought a CVA Optima 50 Cal. break down type and it came with Pyrodex Pellets. He had 50/50s and some 50/30s. I went to a gun dealer to buy some more and the dealer told me he used two 50s on a 270 grain sabbot as a regular powder charge. I ordered a 250 Grain REAL mold to cast my own bullets. Would two 50s be to much for a cast bullet. And the other thing I would like to ask is I have a Bottle of 777. Will 777 work in the Optima break down without any trouble and would it be to hot to use 100 grain of 777 on a 250 grain cast lead bullet? Which of the powder types would be less likely to cause rust?
Thanks Guys for any Info. I learned a long time ago it pays to ask instead of learning the hard way and take a chance. Thanks again
Don

[Willbird]

Well CVA would be the best source for maximum loads for their rifle...but you can get the hogdon data here

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

it is quite comprehensive...

FWIW most folks find granulated powder(either 777 or pyrocrap) both more accurate an a LOT cheaper than pellets......plus it is easier to change charge weights. Walmart often close it out after deer season CHEAP too :-).

Bill

[StarMetal]

Well CVA would be the best source for maximum loads for their rifle...but you can get the hogdon data here

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

it is quite comprehensive...

FWIW most folks find granulated powder(either 777 or pyrocrap) both more accurate an a LOT cheaper than pellets......plus it is easier to change charge weights. Walmart often close it out after deer season CHEAP too :-).

Bill

I've never used pellets in my life. Well, just in my pellet guns. Yes the pellets are a rip off compared to the loose powder.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Well CVA would be the best source for maximum loads for their rifle...but you can get the hogdon data here

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

it is quite comprehensive...

FWIW most folks find granulated powder(either 777 or pyrocrap) both more accurate an a LOT cheaper than pellets......plus it is easier to change charge weights. Walmart often close it out after deer season CHEAP too :-).

Bill

Bill,

As it's been noted here 77 grains of 777 equal 100 volume grains. You need to find out from CVA, or your manual, what the max loads are for your rifle. The pellets are 50 grains each, so two would be 100. Again that's volume.

The new Blackhorn 209 would be the less corrosive and cause rust, followed by 777, then it goes down hill fast from there. Pyrodex is not just super corrosive, but burns with a much hotter flame. On a rifle the only concern for that would be burning out nipples. I use to use it in my Ruger Old Army revolver and it burned a cut under the top strap and also a hole in the hammer nose.

Joe

[Willbird]

Joe, I was replying to DON :-).

Bill <-------

[mooman76]

Dnorris
If you go to the CVA web site you can download or read a owners manual. It will answer allot of your questions rather than us make allot of assumptions based on our own ML's we use. They all are different and are capable of different loads.
According to the manual you can shoot up to 100gr using a conical bullet. If you use 777, 77 grains is = to 100 grains of regular powder. It also says you can use up to 150grains using the magnum pellets and power belt bullets. If you are not familiar with the power belt bullets it is a bullet they make with a plastic end sort of like a gas check but a little different.
A Lee REAL may not work good with the tight twist of your gun and that much powder behind it but you will only knowif you try. It does sound like the power belt bullets is what you are looking for if you are wanting to make a shot up to 200y.