CZ 75 B in 40 S&W

[9.3X62AL]

Most of you have politely endured my railings against the 9mm Parabellum and 40 S&W calibers as cast boolit chamberings for several years now. Among their cited shortcomings was an insanely fast twist rate in most of the platforms so chambered.

Perusing the CZ-USA website a short time ago, I came across this factoid that I found interesting--since I'm considering a CZ-75B in 40 S&W. THE TWIST RATE ON THE 40 S&W IS 1:16". Saints preserve us, sanity prevails at long last. The CZ 9mm is still pitched at 1:9.7", or 4 turns/meter--but the larger and more interesting caliber has things in good order, it looks like to me.

Further review of websites shows a local gun shop chain to have SIG-Sauer P-220's on sale, too. I think that outboard motor I was prepared to purchase might have to wait until the off-season.

[felix]

Should be around 22 or so, Al, but 16 is mucho mo betta than the likes of 10. ... felix

[robertbank]

Interesting points gentlemen. While I differ to your experience when it comes to twist rates I have to add that my CZ 85 Combat is one of the most accurate guns I own out to 25 yards which for me is the practical limit for defensive handguns. If I keep velocities to around 1,100 fps or less I experience no leading casting water quenched 125 gr boolits.

Deputy Al - given my propensity to wake up in the middle of the night thinking about things would you save me a couple of sleepless nights and expand on your concerns about twist rates in the 9MM. As a matter of interest I just bought a Tanfoglio in 9MM to compete in IPSC Production up here. The gun is as you know a take off of the CZ design made in Italy. It and the CZ SP-01 seem to becoming the guns of choice up here for IPSC Production.

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

Bob et al--

The most telling "flaw" in the 9mm and 40 S&W is the twist rates used in the barrels of those calibers--usually 1-10", about twice the pitch required to stabilize boolits/bullet of the length being used by both chamberings. This too-fast twist rate exaggerates any center-of-mass/center-of-form anomalies present in the boolit, and also subjects the castings to (my view) excessive torquing forces that at some point cause stripping or skipping the rifling. 9mm's stay pretty accurate with castings until some point of velocity is reached, then fall off markedly once their "sweet spot" gets exceeded. That's not a knock on the caliber--a lot of firearms do this same thing--my point is that if a slower twist rate was chosen, that velocity limit is often higher in a given caliber.

The 9mm has wider tolerances in cartridge component dimensions and throat/groove/chamber dimensions than is the norm for most handgun calibers. Grooves run from .354" to .358" in my experience. My 3 current 9mm's all have .356"-.3565" grooves and .356"-.357" throats, so I run .357" boolits in my guns. Chambers are often cut a little wide to address service reliability issues, too. This tolerance range allows the shooter to choose a range of case mouth thicknesses in concert with the required boolit diameter to get close to that "ideal" .002" boolit release case mouth expansion at time of firing. In the context of this dimensional hocus-pocus, the added vexation of the fast-for-application twist rate is really "piling on after the tailback is down".

Not all makers are in lockstep with this 1-10" twist rate, as CZ shows with their 40 S&W. Colt 1911A1's in 9mm are 1-16" twist, as are the few Springfield Armory 1911A1's in 9mm and 40 S&W. Bar-Sto Barrels uses the 1-16" twist rate in their aftermarket barrels, and also uses the proper .355" groove diameter in 9mm and a "minimum" chamber. This dimensional integrity pays off with both cast boolits and their jacketed counterparts--LAPD's Beretta 92's are TACKDRIVERS with their closely-toleranced/slower-twisted barrels fitted well to the pistols.

I haven't given an aftermarket barrel a try in my pistols yet, but have fired a couple 9mm's so equipped and a Springfield 1911A1 x 9mm that was box-stock. These pistols were on another level accuracy-wise from their service-grade brethren. The Springfield was in particular impressive--it was likely the most accurate 9mm I've ever fired, but the Berettas keeping it company that day were nearly as good.

So, the 9mm CAN provide target accuracy, if tuned to do so. Most 9mm and 40 S&W pistols are service sidearms--let's remember that. They don't require 1" @ 25 yard grouping in that venue, but MUST perform reliably WITHOUT FAIL. If that service requirement means that tolerances need opening and accuracy degrades a bit accordingly, it's a good trade-off. Bob's 25 yard self-defense engagement range limit is a very realistic one--most such shootings are within two yards--within two seconds--and resolved within two well-placed rounds. Incredibly close-fast-and violent.

[StarMetal]

Deputy Al,

You may be right on that 9mm. I have a 38/45 conversion made up on my Gold Cup frame and I welded the barrel up for match fit. One of the most accurate 9mm's I've ever shot. Dang near shot a ragged 3/4 in hole at 25 yards with the RCBS TC nose 124 gr bullet over some Unique...shooting off my knees for a rest.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Deputy Al,

...shooting off my knees for a rest.

Joe

Joe et al--

Untold numbers of jackrabbits have expired by use of this same technique--seated on the shady side of the pickup truck parked atop a desert dry wash bank, with my back against the tire and 2-hand hold over (pr just inside) my knees. When temps reach 100*, hiking just doesn't appeal to me.

[JRR]

Hello everyone,
I have a CZ75B SA. Single action only model, 40 cal. and box stock except for steel trigger and crisp and lightened trigger pull.

Everything that feeds, fires and ejects has better than average accuracy.

I shoot cast bullets only. The selection includes 155 RN, 155 SWC, 170 SWC, 175 SWC and 180 TC. I load every bullet to 1.135", the industry spec for max OAL. The TC and RN seem to have less pressure than the SWCs with the same powder charge due to having less length inside the case.

I have used 231, AA5, AA7, Unique, Herco, 540, Bluedot and WC820. I have loaded and shot 40 rounds with a selection of every bullet and powder. At 25 yards, no shot went out of a 6 inch group, and I'm not a great shot. Herco was the best for consistant accuracy and velocity in my gun. I was really surprised at how well WC820 did in this caliber (I used AA9 data).

I love this gun!

[Buckshot]

..............JRR, I see you have 3 posts so a belated welcome to the board! Another Californio! We're getting to be right populus on the board. Now if we can just get these idjits we're surrounded with here in the state to vote like they had half a brain, it'd be a nice place to live.

There's a couple guys aboard who don't live too far off from ya.

................Buckshot

[JRR]

I used to post regularly on shooters.com and on the castboolits board when it was first initiated. Life got in the way and it has been a couple of years. I went to cast bullits and discovered that my name and password didn't work anymore, so I re-uped and here I am.

I used to be a member and on the board of the Sonoma County Shooters Assoc. and am now considering re-joining and getting involved again. We used to have three position lever action matches. I really enjoyed it. It was fun spreading cut- apart bicycle boxes on the ground to keep the old embedded cases from digging into your knees.
Jeff

[mike in co]

deputy al.....you know i love cz's.
i just got an cz85 and a barsto 9x21 bbl to go with it.
it ,like my nra action cz-75, is loaded with montana gold 125's.
i have shot lead in my previous 9x21 with no problems up to 1200 fps with a 134 gr boolit.
i have shot lead in my 75 40 smith and wesson....180, 175 and 165. no problems.

the cz 97 (45acp) i let you shoot was commercial 230 lrn right at 800 fps.

i nearly gave up on lead when i foolishly tried hornady swedged bullets in a sw59(9x19). it shaved lead the entire length of the bbl at any speed!

i buy plated lead so cheap that for my auto loaders casting is just not a good use of my time.

i'm looking forward to getting an 85 in 40s&w.....85 is ambi controls . think 135 in 40 would make a nice shooter....but then i also shoot 200 in 40....lol.
i do own some 9mm and 45 molds....but no 40's.....how about a 6 pack lee in a 135/140 tl rn or tc ?

[9.3X62AL]

I'm kinda jazzed about the CZ-75 x 40 Short & Weak. All those fine attributes--including steel receiver--and $300 less than a SIG-Sauer P-226. Yeah, that outboard motor got sent way down the toy list.

[robertbank]

For the price you pay for a CZ vs A Sig you boys ought to have a barnyard full of the guns. I have a CZ 85 made in 1988 and love it. Had to dremel out the mag well so the new mags would drop freely but they are great shooters. Have a Tanfoglio "L" model (Italian CZ clone) ordered for IPSC/IDPA. Darn thing cost me an arm and a leg but they are the cat's meow to shoot.

Occassionaly 75B's used come up for sale on canadiangunutz forum and go from $400 - $600 Cdn which is pretty good price up here.

One day I am going to make a trip down to the states and get myself a CZ compact model. They are great shooters and well made and all steel.

In this design I prefer the 9MM but that is why they make women with different waistlines. LOL

Take Care

[9.3X62AL]

Mike--

As long as the 6-banger was a straight-wall design and NOT a bevel-base, I would be all over a Lee 175-180 grainer for the 40. I like the 200 grain RCBS in the 10mm, never ran it in the Beretta 40.

Robert--

The CZ-75 in 9mm can be had new on sale for ~$475 US locally--I haven't seen the 40's in any number, and never at discounted prices--all around 500-525 US. So, your CDN used prices are pretty good.

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=Deputy Al
Robert--

The CZ-75 in 9mm can be had new on sale for ~$475 US locally--I haven't seen the 40's in any number, and never at discounted prices--all around 500-525 US. So, your CDN used prices are pretty good.[/QUOTE]


ohhh your gonna hate me.......

i paid...$300 at the SHOT Show this year for the cz85.......ooohhh it is nice having access to an ffl.

[9.3X62AL]

Nah, it wouldn't be "hate"--I'm always happy when a gun fancier gets a good price on good stuff. Sometimes, it's me.

[robertbank]

Trust you went to chruch the next Sunday! Love to get a CZ 97. Some guys talk about it being large, Haven't seen one so I can't comment. For those of you who have is it much bigger than a Para P 14 widebody?

Take Care

[mike in co]

Trust you went to chruch the next Sunday! Love to get a CZ 97. Some guys talk about it being large, Haven't seen one so I can't comment. For those of you who have is it much bigger than a Para P 14 widebody?

Take Care
it is smaller than a double stack 45acp...it is a staggered stack design, so not as wide as the wide bodies. it is a 10 rd only, but a lovely gun. mine went bye bye just before my finances went down hill. i'm llooking forward to getting another when funds are available.