1893 v. 1895 Mauser

[Dutchman]

This will be ongoing with more photos added.

These two rifles are both 7x57mm. One is an 1893 model, the other an 1895 model. Both carry the crest of Chile. But the 1893 was not made for Chile initially. It was made for Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (South African Republic) or ZAR. Due to a British navel blockade these rifles never made it to South Africa so they were sent back to Germany where the crest was rollmarked to Chile and off they went.

The ZAR Mauser has what is called, to collectors, a generic side rail address in that it has no country or model as the 1895 Chilean does. In addition the serial number prefix C, identifies it as one of 5,000 rifles in that series sold to the good and fine Dutch volk of the ZAR who taught the British army some hard lessons in marksmanship and how simple Dutch farmers could deliver a serious case of whoopass to the world's most powerful army. The Dutch farmers were known as 'boers'. (phonetically: boo'er. It is not pronounced 'boar'.) Boer is the Dutch word for farmer.

Not to further confuse --- there are a couple/few other 1893 Mauser series that did end up in South Africa and some that didn't. Rifles marked with the Chilean crest and OVS were intended for the Oranje Vrij Staat, Orange Free State. These are far more desireable and collectable and valuable than most other South African Mausers. In the late 60s I owned OVS 8776 that was stone mint, brand new-in-grease right out of the original German crate. These will have a bent bolt.

The ZAR also are supposed to have a bent bolt though the one I have does not as it was sold by SOG in Ohio as a 1895 and came with an 1895 bolt, though it will function and headspace with a 1895 bolt its not the correct bolt. So I purchased a complete bolt from Springfield Sporters for all of $20 to make the world right again, though its not a ZAR bolt it is a 1893 bolt.

Some of the other South African Mausers will have a siderail address indicating a "Model 1896" or "Model 1897" when they were, in fact, model 1893 rifles. The other South African state to purchase these Mausers was Transvaal.

To appreciate the history of the South African Dutch you have to start in the 1600s when it was colonized by the Dutch. The same time frame as for what was to become New York, having been New Netherlands first. The Dutch had an extreme landscape to cultivate and an extreme hostile native population, not to mention the imperialist British invasion, not to leave out the honorable Australian army, many of whom are still buried in SA having learned about the 7mm Mauser the hard way. While I like Aussies if push came to shove you'd be staring down the bore of my 6.5x55 m/96 Mauser much the same as your ancestors. (there were Swedish volunteers in South Africa fighting the British, btw, but they used arms supplied by the Dutch).

http://images52.fotki.com/v738/photos/2/28344/157842/DSCF0562q-vi.jpg

http://images18.fotki.com/v673/photos/2/28344/157842/DSCF0613q-vi.jpg

The 1895 Chilean Mauser was made from 1895 to 1902. But that's not exactly right. It is believed that there were 3 periods of production: 1895, 1898 and 1902. The reason for this belief is that stocks are found with only those 3 dates under the Chilean crest cartouche on the left-side of the buttstock. Some are stamped without a date and with ME instead, possibly 'Ministerio Ejercito'.

http://images54.fotki.com/v556/photos/2/28344/157842/DSCF0618q-vi.jpg

Though the DWM rifle s/n K4209 has a matching original (and cracked) stock dated 1898 it is considered by BATF as "modern". This is because BATF uses the Ludwig Loewe - DWM parting line to distinguish "antique" from "modern". There's no evidence the stocks were made at the same time and, indeed, there is some evidence the stocks were manufactured prior as the Ludwig Loewe trademark anchor stamp on the DWM rifle cause some doubt as to when it was manufactured. The Loewe/DWM merger occurred in November, 1896.

http://images52.fotki.com/v642/photos/2/28344/157842/DSCF0596q-vi.jpg

http://images17.fotki.com/v372/photos/2/28344/157842/DSCF0611q-vi.jpg

This one above is the 1895 Chilean. On the right of the receiver ring you can see a double anchor stamped in the wood. This is a Ludwig Loewe mirror anchor trademark. The Ludwig Loewe company merged with Mauser in 1896 to become Deutsche Waffen und Muntionsfabriken or DWM. (German weapons and munitions factory). ((As an aside- I believe the Ludwig Loewe Mausers are the finest built, best finished Mausers ever made in the world. The quality was never surpassed).

Ludwig Loewe is pronounced: Lude'vig Low'va.

http://images17.fotki.com/v372/photos/2/28344/157842/DSCF0587q-vi.jpg

The 1893 Mauser has a squared bolt face. It was thought that it would pick up cartridges better. It didn't, so the 1895 has a round bolt face. Other than that they are identical, though there can be markings that are different.

http://images54.fotki.com/v556/photos/2/28344/157842/DSCF0608q-vi.jpg

[/to be continued]

[Mike Venturino]

Fascinating. Would love to see some full length photos. I only managed to get over to South Africa one time but I certainly respect those Dutchmen that settled such a harsh land.

MLV

[txpete]

The Ludwig Loewe company merged with Mauser in 1896 to become Deutsche Waffen und Muntionsfabriken or DWM. (German weapons and munitions factory).

the way I understand it he was phased out the hard way because he was a jew.also if you look at his rifles they have the star of david on them.I sold a mint one(1895) to a buddy last year in 7x57.it was a very accurare rifle.
pete

[dualsport]

Last July me and the wife took a 10 day cruise from SF to Alaska, first time ever and loved it. Our waiter in the fancy dining room everynight was a young guy from South Africa, he said yes, he was a Boer. His family has 30,000 acres of farming, ranching, riding , and hunting. I quizzed him about the hunting 'til it pissed everyone else off, but he liked talking about hunting, especially baboon hunting with old Mausers. Apparently the young guys go off for a camping trip, shoot hundreds of baboons, then sit around the campfire at night drinking. I'd sure like to see his dad's gun cabinet. They consider the baboons pests.

[Ricochet]

Ludwig Loewe is pronounced: Lude'vig Low'va.
I've speculated that some families in the U.S. named Love are descended from Loewes. Probably some Lewises are, too. Lots of German names got Anglicized around the WWI period.

[scrapcan]

The names also got anglicized when they came through Ellis Island much earlier in history. Our family has the passenger manifest for a previous generation and the name on the list is way different than on his new citizenship documents.

But that is a digression.

Dutch thanks for the hsitroy lesson once again.

[doubs43]

Dutch, my 1895's bolt face is round and the handle is straight. The roll mark on my receiver is exactly the same as on your ZAR rifle.

A difference between the 1893 and the 1895 not yet mentioned is the added 1895's "safety lug" behind the bolt handle root. A rifle in good shape should have a space between the handle and the lug. If the front locking lugs began to set back for whatever reason, that gap closes.

[Bret4207]

"Shooting baboons and drinking around a campfire". And on 30K acres. Dang. And they said SA was an evil place.....

[Uncle Grinch]

Dutchman.... thanks for the interesting info. You got my interest going so I dug mine out of the safe to check it out.

My 1916 Spanish Mauser (.308 or 7.62 NATO) appears to have no manufacture markings on the receiver ring or side. It does has have a s/n OT-1148xx stamped just behind the gas relief port on the left side. The bolt trigger guard and floorplate all match. Not sure about the barrel as I haven't broke it down in some time. The bolt is the older square bottom series, which I assume makes it a '93 model.

The stock has no markings outside whatsoever. I'll break it down when I have some time. Overall it is in very good condition with the exception of a few stock dings. Bluing is good and the bore is nice and shiney.



All I've shot in it is a few Lee 309-113FN in it.

[Dutchman]

And they said SA was an evil place.....


Only if you're not Dutch :razz:



Dutch - who is

[Dutchman]

My 1916 Spanish Mauser (.308 or 7.62 NATO) appears to have no manufacture markings on the receiver ring or side.


Yours is a Spanish-made 1893 Mauser. Different animal altogether. I should've made a distinction. Yours was mostly likely made at Oviedo, Spain. The markings were scrubbed for some reason during or before the Spanish Civil War circa 1936. Had to do with which side they were on. I forgot the details. In terms of quality of manufacture and materials the Spanish don't come up to German standards. My son-in-law has the same short rifle here in the house.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

Dutch, my 1895's bolt face is round and the handle is straight. The roll mark on my receiver is exactly the same as on your ZAR rifle.

A difference between the 1893 and the 1895 not yet mentioned is the added 1895's "safety lug" behind the bolt handle root. A rifle in good shape should have a space between the handle and the lug. If the front locking lugs began to set back for whatever reason, that gap closes.

I'm going to have to do some reading on yours. With a matching bolt and a round face 1895 bolt I don't know. It sounds like a generic siderail address that may be another of the South African contracts but I'll have to see some photos.

I meant to take a photo of the bolt safety notch. Must've missed it.

Dutch

[doubs43]

Dutch, I've spent 9 hours on the range today shooting in three matches and being Director for two of them. I'm beat and still want to watch the SEC & ACC championship games but I hope to take pictures of my '95 DWM tomorrow.

[dualsport]

I'll put this post over in the hunting thread. No Mausers involved. SMLEs and such.

[doubs43]

As promised, here are pics of my 1895 DWM Chilean Mauser serial number 519.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/1895ReceiverMarkings.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/1895Crest.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/1895Cartouche.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/1895BoltFace.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/1895Bolt.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/1895MagBox.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/1895RearSight.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i99/doubs43/1895%20Chilean%20Mauser/DWM1895MuzzleCrown.jpg

The muzzle crown is definitely different than later Loewe Mausers.

[Uncle Grinch]

Very nice Chilean Mauser! Great photos also.

[Dutchman]

As promised, here are pics of my 1895 DWM Chilean Mauser serial number 519.


What's interesting is there was no DWM in 1895. All the 1895 dated Chileans are Ludwig Loewe. This one will take some study.

Dutch

[doubs43]

What's interesting is there was no DWM in 1895. All the 1895 dated Chileans are Ludwig Loewe. This one will take some study.

Dutch

That is indeed interesting. One possibility - and about the only one I can imagine - is that being very early in the DWM production, stocks that were previously made for Loewe marked rifles and already stamped with the 1895 cartouche were used. The only need would then be to stamp the serial number on the stock.

Having already collected several Loewe 1895 Chilean Mausers, I recognized the small differences in this DWM right away but I've never made the connection between the stock date and the date that DWM came into existence. This DWM is the only 1895 I still have and I had a couple of real beauties in the Loewes.

I've been interested in Lugers for many years, so I know a little something about German military production and how serial numbers were assigned.

Normally, production in any given year began with serial numbers 1 - 10,000. The next block would run from A1 - A10,000 OR 1A - 10,000A. Then the letter B etc. German arms used a letter suffix and it's likely that contract arms used a letter prefix. The serial numbering started fresh for each year; i.e., they started at 1 - 10,000 each new year. However, foreign contract rifles may have continued in sequence as they were not date stamped like German arms were.

It is because there is no letter prefix that I believe my DWM was first run and the stock cartouche reinforces that theory in my mind. A stock intended for a Loewe marked rifle would most certainly have been used rather than dispose of it. Such waste would not have been thinkable.

As an aside, if you own a German rifle or pistol, make certain that you include the year of manufacture when recording the serial number as the previous and following years will likely have an identically numbered arm. Also, don't forget the letter as it's part of the serial number.

[Dutchman]

That is indeed interesting. One possibility - and about the only one I can imagine - is that being very early in the DWM production, stocks that were previously made for Loewe marked rifles and already stamped with the 1895 cartouche were used. The only need would then be to stamp the serial number on the stock.

That theory would be very easy to test simply by examining other 1895 dated Chileans. And you'd see that they are all Ludwig Loewe.



Normally, production in any given year began with serial numbers 1 - 10,000. The next block would run from A1 - A10,000 OR 1A - 10,000A. Then the letter B etc. German arms used a letter suffix and it's likely that contract arms used a letter prefix.

Correct, though its 1 to 9,999. And as you know with some contracts the serial number has a letter suffix, not prefix.



The serial numbering started fresh for each year; i.e., they started at 1 - 10,000 each new year.

No, serial numbers ran consecutively. With the 1908 Brazilian contract when they reached 9,999 Z they started a double letter like 9999 Aa with upper case and lower case letters. Using German script that can get real interesting try to figure out if its a 'C' or an 'e'.



It is because there is no letter prefix that I believe my DWM was first run and the stock cartouche reinforces that theory in my mind. A stock intended for a Loewe marked rifle would most certainly have been used rather than dispose of it. Such waste would not have been thinkable.

Except there's nothing so back up that theory. The 1895 Chileans are a well known series with many early rifles being seen. I believe I saw s/n 2 many decades ago in Los Angeles. It was $100 in about 1970. Wasn't new, either.



if you own a German rifle or pistol, make certain that you include the year of manufacture when recording the serial number as the previous and following years will likely have an identically numbered arm. Also, don't forget the letter as it's part of the serial number.

I own a Luger and I've read Fred Datig's book:). I'm aware of the fiasco that can happen with Luger serial numbers. S/42 1936. Mine is one of the Russian come-backs. $275 from SOG but had no grips and no magazine. I bought it to learn Lugers and had to really learn Lugers to get it up and running. Its a shooter and boy does it shoot. Only problem is the magazine is too small capacity. Runs out of ammo too quick.

If its ok with you I'd like to post your photos over on gunboards so a couple of the Mauser collectors can check it out. I looked at data last night for other South African Mausers and this one just doesn't fit in with them. I'm curious enough about that I want to find out where it fits in the great scheme of things. The one problem is there are known to be anomalies in the 1893 series that don't fit anywhere, or don't appear to fit anywhere. Your 1895 may be one of those that no matter what we can't place it where it belongs. Someone more focused on Chileans will probably be able to fairly fast. I've not run across a 1895 Chilean like yours before. I'm stumped.

Dutch

[doubs43]

By all means post the pictures. I'm as curious as you are. :)

With regards to serial numbers, commercial Lugers ran consecutively over the years. One contract Luger that used a suffix letter was the 1923 Finnish Luger that are serialed just as any German military pistol would be. I had one in the "L" block I purchased in Seattle in 1967 and another years later from a different letter block. Both were .30 caliber. The Finns converted many to 9mm in later years.

Datig was a good reference in his day but so much new and corrected information has surfaced that he's woefully outdated. Jan Still's books are considered the authority along with a few other authors who have done extensive research. Some of those books would cost you more than you paid for your Russian Capture Luger!! BTW, in one of Still's books is a Luger serial number 10000!!

My theory about a remaining Loewe stock being used on a DWM production rifle isn't as far fetched as you may think. Stocks could be made and finished in far greater numbers more quickly than the barreled actions etc. Only the serial number would remain to be stamped. I'm sure Loewe kept a large supply of stocks on hand so it's more than possible that hundreds or even several thousand stocks could have been on hand already stamped 1895 when the DWM 1895's went into production.

A good example of a factory using older parts is the Model 52 Winchester. The initial production used screws for the butt plate that were left over from 1878 muskets as I recall. Nothing went to waste.

Another possibility is the use of an 1895 cartouche stamp in 1896. If only 1895, 1898 and 1902 cartouche stamps are known, they had to use 1895 stamps into 1897 or 1898 when they were replaced. The stamps could also be dated to correspond to the contract dates if more than one contract was made.

If you examine the picture of the muzzle, you'll see that the rifling extends into the curve of the crown which is unusual. All four lands do that.

BTW, my first sporting rifle was a mismatched 1895 Loewe that I bought in 1968 from a hardware store in Tacoma, WA for $18.50 IIRC. They had at least 50 or 60 rifle in a long rack. I had the barrel cut to 24", the bolt bent and the receiver D&T'd for Weaver bases. I put a 4x Busnell Banner scope on it and cut the stock down and refinished it. My total investment was $56.25 and I shot thousands of rounds through it, mostly loaded with a Lee Loader... the kind that required a hammer to size and seat the primers and bullets. Surplus 4895 worked beautifully and cost about $2 a pound. It was quite accurate and I'm sorry I ever sold it.

I also have a Russian Capture Luger but I've never shot it. I have other Lugers to shoot. I have a so-called VoPo Luger too, a 1917 Erfurt that has all major parts matching except the side plate which is force matched. The VoPo Lugers were one of the last of the bargain Lugers because collectors turned their noses up at them. Bet many wish they hadn't now. :)

[Van]

Dutchman, please update us on your findings. I'm very interested in finding one of these Mausers. Can you tell me more info, and what to look for? Were there only Chilean Mausers used in the Boer War? Can you give me a serial number range & model numbers to look for?

Thanks.

[Dutchman]

Boer Mausers were mostly 1893, not 1895. There's really a lot more to answering your questions. If you spend some time on google and 'boer mauser' you'll learn a lot more. There's not one model Mauser to look for. And your bank account better be healthy. Boer Mausers bring a very high price depending on several factors, one of which is owner carvings on the stock. Lots of Boer Mausers have some very cool carvings. $$$$$. Robert Ball's book "Military Mausers of the World" is pretty good and so is Ludwig Olsen's Mauser Bolt Rifles.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=boer+mausers&btnG=Google+Search&fp=a9aaf6110ada7198

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=boer+mausers&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&sout=1&biw=1105&bih=509



Dutch

[Sedulous]

I'm a noob to firearms, especially to disassembling and reassembling old rifles. My dad gave me a 1893 Chilean Mauser and I've not a clue as to how to clean it. I've shot about 40 rounds of new and old ammo through it and love the gun, but need to clean it. I've got a bore snake, but further cleaning would be desirable. Can some one point me in the right direction?

The info above was very helpful in identifying the rifle. Thanks.

[thebigmac]

Sending you a PM. Re; your 1895 Chileon. big mac

[JIMinPHX]

The Mauser rifle has a fascinating history. Thanks for posting this info & these pictures.


I'm a noob to firearms, especially to disassembling and reassembling old rifles. My dad gave me a 1893 Chilean Mauser and I've not a clue as to how to clean it. I've shot about 40 rounds of new and old ammo through it and love the gun, but need to clean it. I've got a bore snake, but further cleaning would be desirable. Can some one point me in the right direction.

If you shot corrosive surplus ammo, then it is very important to clean the gun as soon as possible. For the corrosive stuff, I start by cleaning with hot soapy water, then I dry the barrel, then I clean as I normally would. Some people use Windex to get the corrosive salts out.

[leadman]

I have a well worn Mauser that has a mismatched square bolt. Receiver is marked Oviedo with a 1924 date. Just a serial number on the side of the reciever. Quess this would be a model 1893?

[Dutchman]

I have a well worn Mauser that has a mismatched square bolt. Receiver is marked Oviedo with a 1924 date. Just a serial number on the side of the reciever. Quess this would be a model 1893?

Yes.

Dutch

[leadman]

Thanks Dutch.

[JIMinPHX]

What's the best way to tell a 93 from a 95?

[Dutchman]

What's the best way to tell a 93 from a 95?

The 1895 Chilean Mauser is a singular different model. It is not the same receiver or bolt as the 1893 model. The 1895 has a wider rear receiver than the 1893 plus the 1895 has a notch that the bolt handle sits in as a "safety" notch of sorts.

The 1895 bolt will fit and function in the 1893 and I purchased a 1893 South African/Chilean from SOG once advertised as a 1895 but it was a C-prefix 1893 that was for the ZAR, South African Republic and re-stamped for Chile when the delivery was thwarted by a British navel blockade.

The 1893 German-made Mauser long rifle was widely manufactured and can be challenging to determine what country it came from. Spanish-made 1893 not so much as they're marked pretty well, most being Oviedo manufactured with a date. But German-made 1893 will have a generic Ludwig Loewe crest or no crest and it can be interesting to research.

Only the 1895 Chilean Mauser has this notch in the receiver for the bolt handle. That's probably the easiest way differentiate a 1893 from a 1895 action. That's why the receiver tang is wider as it is due to this feature.
http://images58.fotki.com/v510/photos/4/28344/9895637/c11-vi.jpg
http://images59.fotki.com/v683/photos/4/28344/9895637/c12-vi.jpg

The 1896 Swedish Mauser is based on the 1893 Mauser. The Swede is actually an expedient design made for faster and easier production. The main difference is the elimination of the bolt guide rib that the 1893 and 1895 have. In rapid fire the 1893/95 is a bit steadier and smoother than the Swede. The Swede has a guide rib on top of the bolt that's easier to manufacture than the guide rib in the receiver.

Dutch

[Buckshot]

..............Another interesting early Mauser is the 1894 Brazilian. So far as I know the Brazilian contract was their only use. I have some made by both FN and Loewe. If I recall correctly I understand FN got into a bit of trouble over these, as they were manufacturing actions (complete rifles?) beyond the allowance Loewe gave to them as a contractor.

The 1894 Brazilians and the 1895 Chileans were also the only actions to not have the thumb cutout in the left action wall. The 1894 Brazilian actions also were broached for the 'Chinned' or square bolt face.

http://www.fototime.com/99C2EF10AF59F99/standard.jpg

This 1894 action was turned into a 7.62x39 sporter. You can see the full length left wall, the guide rail in the left lug raceway, and looking very closely a tiny bit of the flat floor immediately behind the white mag filler for the chinned boltface.

http://www.fototime.com/D2B647FE01654B8/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/65EC456D36B618B/standard.jpg

LEFT: This action has been sectioned to shorten it to make a 45 ACP carbine, but on the tang you can see the flat for the chinned bolt. RIGHT: Also, just ahead of the bullet, on the feed ramp you can see again a bit fo the flat to allow the chinned boltface to pass.

These actions were purchased from Century back in the 90's as stripped receivers. They were $4.95 ea or 6 for $25. A buddy and I bought 12 of'em. Of my 6 one had extensive pitting in all areas under wood and was tossed. So far I've used 2 of'em. One for the 7.62x39 sporter and another chambered 35 Remington. The 45ACP carbine has yet to be completed. My friend turned two into a 7x57 and 257 Roberts sporter. We completed them buying the parts from Springfield Sporters. Altogether this brought the total price for each completed action to $65.

..................Buckshot

[Dutchman]

The 1894 Brazilians and the 1895 Chileans were also the only actions to not have the thumb cutout in the left action wall.

The 1893 shown in the first post of this thread, C1516, does not have the thumb cutout. Generally none of the originally manufactured 1893 had the thumb cutout.

I got a few rifles out of Century as u-fix-ems very inexpensive. Wish it would've been more, many more. They were excellent "shop" rifles to play with. I did get two complete 98 Mausers, a 1909 Argentine and a 1908 Brazilian for $20 each. I still use them in the shop.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

This 1902 Oveido Spanish Mauser has the thumb cutout and the oval gas vent that was a later retro-fit. I bought this at an auction in Indiana. It had spent many years in a cold wet barn.

http://images39.fotki.com/v1350/photos/2/28344/981703/s1-vi.jpg
http://images6.fotki.com/v78/photos/2/28344/981703/s6-vi.jpg
http://images6.fotki.com/v79/photos/2/28344/981703/s7-vi.jpg
http://images6.fotki.com/v79/photos/2/28344/981703/s3-vi.jpg

[atr]

thanks for the info Dutchman,,,,especially on the meaning for the markings for the 1895

[JIMinPHX]

So then, a receiver marked "oviedo" with no thumb cut out would be an older 93? This one has most of the date worn off of it. I can only make out the 1.

[Dutchman]

To speak definitively and with absolute statements is not what I'd care to do :). I don't know the circumstances concerning why some rifles got a retro thumb cut and some didn't. I'll try and look through Olsen's book Mauser Bolt Rifles and see if there's any mention of it. Somewhere I'm sure there is information concerning this. Spanish Mausers aren't my strong point. The 1893 Mauser, both German and Spanish, is a huge area of study.

Dutch

http://images43.fotki.com/v1325/photos/2/28344/1178887/us000477671001Mauser-vi.jpg

[JIMinPHX]

Dutch,
please don't put yourself out on my account. The information that you have already posted has been wonderfully informative. If you had happened to know the answer to my question off the top of your head, I would have liked to know the answer, but it is certainly not an important enough question to warrant special research on your part.

Thanks for all the great info.

Jim

[flounderman]

You mentioned shooting old ammunition. some old military could be corrosive. hot soapy water is used for cleaning after shooting corrosive. followed by oiling. anything with a red primer sealant is corrosive. Daryl

[Larry Gibson]

My Oviedo M93 action is stamped 1928 and has no thumb cut.

That action has survived at least it's original 7.57 barrel, two .308W barrels and is now my .308 CBC (Cast Bullet Cartridge - .308W shortened to 2.00" with the shoulder set back to give it an '06 length neck. Case capacity = 30-40) with no lug set back. My testing of numerous milsurp 7x57 cartridges in my Chilian M95 using an Oehler M43 to measure velocity and psi shows that Spanish made 7x57 (PS) made in the early '50s runs 59,200 - 64,400 psi(M43). Some 1919 Spanish made ammunition I found down along the Mexican border with 172 cupro-nickel bullets ran 54,900 psi. The C.I.P. (European equivelent of SAAMI) lists 57,000 psi(piezo) as the MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for the 7x57.

Most US made M80 and Canadian IVI Ball I've tested (11 different lots) runs 52,100 to 64,200 psi (M43). That 64,200 psi was with 1 lot only, the rest were all under 59,200 psi with most in the 54 - 58,000 psi range. Most all commercail .308W runs within those same figures with neither being "higher pressure" than the other. All foriegn made M80 type 7.62 NATO runs 42,900 to 54,800 psi (most of which is made by countries that used the FN/FAL).

This is not a recommendation to load these actions "hotter" if in 7x57 or to shoot 7.62 NATO or .308W in actions so rebarreled. I'm just stating what I've found and the data I've measured for information only.

Larry Gibson

[Ed in North Texas]

You mentioned shooting old ammunition. some old military could be corrosive. hot soapy water is used for cleaning after shooting corrosive. followed by oiling. anything with a red primer sealant is corrosive. Daryl

If it is foreign military surplus, consider it corrosive primed and you won't go wrong as only the more recent ammo of some Western European countries is non-corrosive.

As for US military ammo, all Carbine ammo was non-corrosive from the beginning in WW II. There was at least one lot of .45 ammo from FA that was corrosive in 1954, other suppliers loaded .45 with corrosive primers as late as 1953. .30 caliber was non-corrosive for sure starting with 1953 headstamps - except for FA blanks, where one lot was loaded with corrosive primers in 1954. .50 caliber is relevant these days to more than those shooting a Ma Deuce, so there was one lot of API produced by FA in 55, and a lot of incendiary by TW in 54. All other .50 caliber are safe for sure with a 54 headstamp.

As Darryl says, soap and water works, though it can be a little messy (or is it me that's messy?). Since ammonia works very well to remove the corrosive salts, there is real reason some folks carry a bottle of Windex to the range. Personally, since I don't wait any length of time after getting home from the range to clean, using Sweet's 7.62 works just fine for both cleaning, copper and corrosive primers. I'm sure there are other ammonia bearing cleaners, I just happen to like Sweet's. Besides, I don't have to do anything special for any corrosive primer ammo if I clean with Sweet's for all my non-Black Powder shooting.

[JIMinPHX]

anything with a red primer sealant is corrosive.

I respectfully question that statement. I have gotten many boxes of rifle cartridges from Hanson that had red primer sealant. I had believed that they were non-corrosive Boxer ammo. I have also bought several lots of surplus ammo from places like Cheaper Thank Dirt & Sportsman's Guide that had primer sealant on them & were sold as non-corrosive.

Can anyone else chime in with more information on this subject?

[Ed in North Texas]

I respectfully question that statement. I have gotten many boxes of rifle cartridges from Hanson that had red primer sealant. I had believed were non-corrosive Boxer ammo. I have also bought several lots of surplus ammo from places like Cheaper Thank Dirt & Sportsman's Guide that had primer sealant on them & were sold as non-corrosive.

Can anyone else chime in with more information on this subject?


My list of US small arms ammo is the definitive list from US Govt sources. For foreign military, many countries relied on corrosive primers long after we quit them on the belief that the corrosive primers lasted longer than non-corrosive.

IIRC, the definitive test for the primers is to pull the bullet and powder from a case, then fire the case/primer against a clean steel plate. Leave the plate in a warm humid environment for 4 to 5 days and you'll quickly learn whether the primer is corrosive. Really definitive is to use a known corrosive round, a known non-corrosive and a clean steel plate as "standards" against which the unknown is tested.

[Buckshot]

.............You can also pull the slug, dump the powder then invert the case over a common nail driven through a board. Set off the primer and check the nail the next day. One of the 2-fer 1895 Steyrs I got from Century back in the 90's had a well used barrel (later I re-barreled and chambered it 30-40 Krag). I had a sizeable quantity of original Austrian 8x56R ammo (it was very cheap) then. I'd fired them both at the range and cleaned the decent shooter. The other was simply leaned against the bench. The next day when I went out to the shop there was dark orange rust practically GROWING out of the muzzle :holysheep Long before digital cameras were cheap and common (meaning I didn't have one!) or I'd have taken a picture of it!

...............Buckshot

[jkrieck]

I know i am coming to this topic a little late but I am curious as to where my rifle fits into the ones you were talking about a few years ago. I think it is an 1893 but I'm not sure. It is sporterized so i realize that can make it a little more difficult.59857598585985959860

Thank you for any help
Justin

[Dutchman]

It's a Chilean crest. But without seeing the bolt face, squared bottom versus round, I can't say. I've showed photos of each in this thread so you can make that determination yourself.

The side rail address is the generic and not Chilean. Why this is I can't say.

Dutch

[oscarflytyer]

I've speculated that some families in the U.S. named Love are descended from Loewes. Probably some Lewises are, too. Lots of German names got Anglicized around the WWI period.

Uh... Myers (my last name) and my mother's maiden name - Foltz - maybe originally Voltz... If you look at a German phone book, Myers and Foltz (and derivatives) are like Smith and Jones here!

[jkrieck]

It's a Chilean crest. But without seeing the bolt face, squared bottom versus round, I can't say. I've showed photos of each in this thread so you can make that determination yourself.

The side rail address is the generic and not Chilean. Why this is I can't say.

Dutch

The bolt face is rounded, but has no markings. I do not think it is original. I thought it was odd that there were only 2 digits to the serial number and no letters... since all others I have seen are not like this.

Thanks

[Gert Odendaal]

Dutchman
I will be uploading a few photos of a Mauser with markings I have not seen before. It will be interesting to see where this Mauser fits in..here is a question in this regard I asked on other forums.

Good day members.

I need some assistance in identifying a unique Boere Mauser.

Scenario: Correct me if I am wrong, the 7x57 Mauser my fore -fathers , the Boer fighters used in the Anglo Boer war used was the split-bridge Mauser? The Model 1893/1895 Mauser chambered for the 7×57 cartridge.

A very old person , 84 years of age handed a 7x57 Mauser in yesterday at the gunsmith shop. Attached to the 7x57 Mauser is a story. During the Anglo Boer war his grandfather used this Mauser in war. His horse was shot dead under him , the bullet traveled through his leg and through the horse.

He fell and was taken as prisoner by the English( British soldiers) Fortunately the Mauser rifle, the saddle with the hole in was recovered by his fellow Boer fighters. His grand child, the old person unfortunately do not have sons and can not hand the 7 x 57 Mauser to a son of his...so now he gave it to the gunsmith shop.

Coming back to the scenario: Split bridge Mausers, the Model 1893/1895....but what now if the 7x 57 Mauser has a M89 action, build by the Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionfabriken Berlin, the serial number being no 31. Another strange making is the three circles staggered as a triangle on every part of this 7x 57 Mauser.

Left hand side of back sights is a C7mm marking.
Left side of receiver 3 x crowns, 2,4 gG.B.P under this marking is ST.m.G

Is this a custom made Mauser in the 1889 era for someone to used in the Ango-Boer war, three year war in South Africa?

I really would like to hear from any one who can tell me more about this rifle.


My take on this rifle: It can be a O.V.S Mauser...

Regards

Gert

[EDG]

German made Spanish 1893 Mauser. I have never seen one of these in really nice condition.

157799


Orange Free State Marked


157800


Check this one out. I cannot get it to link.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/joseyclosey/rifles/7mm%20OVS/brora2012152.jpg


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/joseyclosey/rifles/7mm%20OVS/brora2012151.jpg)

[EDG]

Another Photo of the DWM dated 1897 and marked OVS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/joseyclosey/rifles/7mm%20OVS/brora2012152.jpg

[jugulater]

ive heard theories that spain scrubbed the German markings off their german made mausers when they refurbished them, while this could be possible, i think the Span-Am war had more to do with the lack of German made spanish 93s in good condition.

on a side note Bannerman bought up all the captured spanish arms he could and resold them, which probably explains all the battered Spanish rolling blocks found in the U.S.

[Dutchman]

Dutchman
I will be uploading a few photos of a Mauser with markings I have not seen before. It will be interesting to see where this Mauser fits in..here is a question in this regard I asked on other forums.

Good day members.

I need some assistance in identifying a unique Boere Mauser.

Scenario: Correct me if I am wrong, the 7x57 Mauser my fore -fathers , the Boer fighters used in the Anglo Boer war used was the split-bridge Mauser? The Model 1893/1895 Mauser chambered for the 7×57 cartridge.

A very old person , 84 years of age handed a 7x57 Mauser in yesterday at the gunsmith shop. Attached to the 7x57 Mauser is a story. During the Anglo Boer war his grandfather used this Mauser in war. His horse was shot dead under him , the bullet traveled through his leg and through the horse.

He fell and was taken as prisoner by the English( British soldiers) Fortunately the Mauser rifle, the saddle with the hole in was recovered by his fellow Boer fighters. His grand child, the old person unfortunately do not have sons and can not hand the 7 x 57 Mauser to a son of his...so now he gave it to the gunsmith shop.

Coming back to the scenario: Split bridge Mausers, the Model 1893/1895....but what now if the 7x 57 Mauser has a M89 action, build by the Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionfabriken Berlin, the serial number being no 31. Another strange making is the three circles staggered as a triangle on every part of this 7x 57 Mauser.

Left hand side of back sights is a C7mm marking.
Left side of receiver 3 x crowns, 2,4 gG.B.P under this marking is ST.m.G

Is this a custom made Mauser in the 1889 era for someone to used in the Ango-Boer war, three year war in South Africa?

I really would like to hear from any one who can tell me more about this rifle.


My take on this rifle: It can be a O.V.S Mauser...

Regards

Gert

hello Gert

The 1893 and 1895 Mausers are not "split bridge". The 1871 and 71/84 are split bridge. I'm also a little confused as to what you're referring to as a "M89 action".

Photos would go along ways:-).

Dutch

[UBER7MM]

Gewehr 1888s Commission rifles are "split bridge", but NOT Mausers....

[rjathon]

There is an excellent book, "The Boer War" by Thomas Packenham that goes into depth about how the Dutch used their 7x57's to deadly effect against the British. It is an amazing story. The Brits entered the war expecting it to last two weeks. It lasted almost three. It is a great read.

[atr]

here is another 7x57 model 95....all matching serial numbers including the cleaning rod.
cartouche on the stock reads 1902....there is no cartouche stamped on narrow edge of the right side of the stock
158140158141158142158143158144

[fouronesix]

[QUOTE=Dutchman;735700](As an aside- I believe the Ludwig Loewe Mausers are the finest built, best finished Mausers ever made in the world. The quality was never surpassed).

Interesting that this thread has been revived. After reading the first post, I have come to the conclusion this excerpt to be true. Although there have been so many iterations of a "Mauser", the Chilean M1895 by Loewe has to be one of the finest if not the finest.

I am no Mauser expert, but did come up with a very nice Chilean M1895 a few years ago. All matching and possibly never fired. The stock still has "whiskers". It is as described by the real experts for an original and complete 1895 Loewe gun but instead of a "double anchor" mark on the stock at the right port opening, it has what appears to be an "arrow" mark?

[Frank46]

Ah Hansen Cartridge Company, there is a name I haven't seen in print in some years. Back when they were importing ammo before the Yugoslavian wars of genocide if the primer sealant was red and had a domed or round top of the primer it is corrosive primed. I have a bunch of yugo 7.62x54r heavy ball with the red sealant and domed or round top primer and it is corrosive despite what some people say (usually at gun shows). If it has a green sealant and a flat topped primer it is non corrosive boxer primed. I have a bunch of Hansen Cartridge Company 303 British and 7.62x54r that fit the above description. They also imported 6.5x55 Swedish mauser,7mm mauser, and 7.62x39 as boxer primed. While the first two a are of yugo manufacture the 7.62x39 was actually made by IMI or Israel Military Industries. The first two had the NNY or PPU headstamp and the third was stamped IMI along with the caliber. There was a bunch of corrosive primed yugo ammo imported years ago and I believe it was stated to have come from Yugoslavia during one of the periods when sanctions were imposed there and the red sealant was a dead give away as to where it came from. Frank

[EDG]

Hansen also sold 8X57 ammo with the IK headstamp for Igman. It does not seem to be the same quality as the PPU ammo.

[Brithunter]

The Ludwig Loewe company merged with Mauser in 1896 to become Deutsche Waffen und Muntionsfabriken or DWM. (German weapons and munitions factory).

the way I understand it he was phased out the hard way because he was a jew.also if you look at his rifles they have the star of david on them.I sold a mint one(1895) to a buddy last year in 7x57.it was a very accurare rifle.
pete


I suggest you read the Mauser story and history in Jon Speeds book "Original Mauser Sporting rifles" Loewe made plenty of money out of Mauser as they were supposed to manufacture Rifles for Turkey but never did many so Mauser had to pick up the slack yet Loewe got the payment.