1909 Argentine Part 2

[EMC45]

Alright got an extractor from a very kind member here. It is the 98 extractor with the tolerance for a 8MM or 30-06 rim thickness. Put the bolt back together and snapped a round into place and it was a good fit. BUT............IT will not chamber in my rifle. Fed from the magazine.
I made up 2 dummy rounds. One with brass fired from a Garand and one with bolt action rifle fired brass. Even dialed my sizer die down a hair and resized one of them. Still no luck!!! Did the magic marker trick to look for rub marks or galling and NOTHING!! The bolt will chamber the round, but will not turn down to lock in place. Works perfectly when no round is present! What am I doing wrong here?! I am about to re-sell this thing along with my 7X57 Mauser that has sat propped in the corner for the past year because of a shot out barrel and headspace issues. I want to make this work, but will not lose my cool trying to figure out something that I can't figure out. If anyone can help I would appreciate it. Evan

[jonk]

Sounds like a brass sizing issue or if that's ruled out, the extractor isn't quite slipping over the cartridge head. You ARE feeding from the mag, yes?

[EMC45]

Watched the bolt pick up the dummy and feed into the chamber. Rim was surely under the extractor. Got one to finally seat and lock in last night. It took some doing. I had to persuade to bolt to open though. I am getting heavy engraving on the bullet of these dummy rounds. Could this thing have been rough reamed and not finish reamed? That would kind of explain some of the difficulties. And the no throat issue.

[JSH]

7.65x53 correct?
I made all of mine from 06 brass without a glitch. Annealed, sized, trimmed, reamed. I could have neck turned, but reaming was faster with that much brass to remove. Runout was no worse on this than most 06 brass i have fooled with, milsurp that is.

If you didn't ream or neck turn the 06 brass that may be your problem if using a .311+-.314 boolit. May be smushing the nose enough in that very tight neck to cause the heavyengraving of the nose?

Use what ever brass you want, but FULL LENGTH size it. I mean right down to the shell holder and cam over. I have found making brass for some of these milsurps to be easier than some have let on in other post. Treat it like working with a wildcat.
jeff

[Trifocals]

Since you didn't specify that you are having trouble with just the brass chambering but did mention engraving the bullet on a dummy round, let's address the brass first. Will the empty brass chamber? If not, try annealing the brass. This will slightly soften the shoulder of the cases. Then resize them again. If the cases then chamber, that problem is solved. You didn't specify if you were using a "J" bullet or a cast boolit in your dummy round. If you are planning to use "J" bullets, simply seat them a little deeper until they will chamber. If cast boolits, try a shorter boolit. Generally speaking, cast boolits should not be seated below the neck of the brass. If you suspect the rifle has a short throat, a chamber cast will reveal that. If you don't have the material or knowledge to make a chamber cast, any competent gunsmith should be able to do this for you. If the throat is too short, again a competent gunsmith should be able to use a throating reamer to lengthen the chamber throat. LOL :p

[Bret4207]

First off you have to full length size the brass. Set the die so the press "cams over" a bit at full stroke. That will size the brass as much as possible. Then try it with just the brass, no bullet. It's possible the 98 extractor is interfering with something too.

[EMC45]

This particular rifle has been rechambered to 30-06. It is not in the original caliber. The bolt will close without a case perfectly. I have turned the sizer die in even more, but to no avail.

[pietro]

[This particular rifle has been rechambered to 30-06. It is not in the original caliber.]

There's your problem, in a nutshell - that "rechambering" has issues.

It's just my $0.02, but "something" only rechambered to .30-06 doesn't make it a .30-06, and it shouldn't be treated like one.
It should be treated like a wildcat, as posted above.

.

[StarMetal]

Size a case down with camming over the ram. Then marker pen the entire case. Now remove your bolt from your rifle and slip the case up under the extractor. Now, while holding the bolt stop/ejector wide open, caring insert the bolt and case into the rife and guide the case into the chamber and try to chamber it shutting the bolt. Then extract it equally as careful. You'll find where it's binding. Sounds to me it's on the shoulder slant.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

I don't think you have anything serious enough to sell the rifle down river. To be honest I really don't understand your question.

"It won't chamber a round. Fed from the magazine".

Do you mean the round won't come up from the magazine and go under the extractor and the bolt moves forward without a round? or do you mean the bolt does pick up the round, but it won't chamber the round when fed from the magazine? Those are two seperate issues.

I take it you can:

Work the bolt freely and it will open and close into battery without any issues.

Chamber a round, when it is hand placed on the bolt face under the extractor and chamber without any issues.

Are the rounds sitting correctly in the magazine for the bolt to pick them up? It just might be you don't have an extractor problem, but a problem with the magazine fit to the bottom of the receiver. Perhaps the magazine box is bent a hair or the follower not doing it's thing for one reason or another.

I hate to be picky, but I can't nail your problem down. Maybe I am just dense. If I had your rifle here in my shop, I could disgnose the problem in three minutes and fix it in fifteen. But trying to do these things over the internet requires some very specific information and good communication.

If you have not done so, pull the metal from the wood, so you can get a gander at the whole shebang. You need eyes on the action from 360 degrees. Don't assume it is the extractor unless you have eliminated 100% all other possible causes of a misfeed. There are several. Hell, I have seen folks that had the follower spring and follower bass awkards in the magazine box. I have seen the follower spring, just loose in the box and not engaged in the slot in the floor plate. I have seen magazine boxes set too low or too high in the receiver. All kinds of stuff.

[StarMetal]

I don't think you have anything serious enough to sell the rifle down river. To be honest I really don't understand your question.

"It won't chamber a round. Fed from the magazine".

Do you mean the round won't come up from the magazine and go under the extractor and the bolt moves forward without a round? or do you mean the bolt does pick up the round, but it won't chamber the round when fed from the magazine? Those are two seperate issues.

I take it you can:

Work the bolt freely and it will open and close into battery without any issues.

Chamber a round, when it is hand placed on the bolt face under the extractor and chamber without any issues.

Are the rounds sitting correctly in the magazine for the bolt to pick them up? It just might be you don't have an extractor problem, but a problem with the magazine fit to the bottom of the receiver or the follower not doing it's thing for one reason or another.

I hate to be picky, but I can't nail your problem down. Maybe I am just dense.

Chargar,

I think he said he sized down two different cases and they will chamber, but the bolt won't close all the way.

Joe

[EMC45]

Could the extractor be rubbing when I close the bolt? That is my next test.

[oldhickory]

Maybe a dumb/too obvious question, but...You did head space this thing with BOTH Go and NO-GO gauges...Right?

[StarMetal]

Could the extractor be rubbing when I close the bolt? That is my next test.

Not if the bolt closes on an empty chamber. There's also not enough differences in the different cartridge rims sizes either.

Me thinks you have a short chamber. That's why I suggested markering the whole case and pay particular attention to the slope on the shouder. Another thing, when the case is indeed too long, you can easily extract it. But when a case is fat in another area like the body, you will have some difficulty in extracting it.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

OK Joe.. Here is what the guy should do.

1. Remove the extractor and collar from the bolt.
2. Insert an empty case in the chamber by hand.
3. Close the bolt

Yes, I know he will have to take a rod and knock the case out from the muzzle.

A. If the bolt will close on the case without the extractor, the problem is the extractor.
B. If the bolt will not close on the case without the extractor, the problem is the chamber.

If the problem is failure to feed from the magazine, go back to my prior post.

If A. above is encountered, and the case will chamber sans extractor, then polish down the front of the extractor to thin it until it all works fine. May take several tries.

If B. above is encountered and the case will not chamber sans extractor, the chamber is too short. No sense jacking with die setting, a couple of twists with a finishing reamer, and a check with a case or headspace gage will fix the problem, pretty darn quick, you betchum.

This assumes the case was sized in a good FL sizing die, properly installed and adjusted in the press. I never assume anything on trying to solve a problem on the internet. "Oh, you mean I have to screw the light bulb in the lamp for it to work?" Never comit the sin of assumption!!!

This stuff ain't rocket science. Sorry to be such a PITA, but the poor guy is running in circles chasing his tail and it is an easy problem to diagnose and fix.

[StarMetal]

OK Joe.. Here is what the guy should do.

1. Remove the extractor and collar from the bolt.
2. Insert an empty case in the chamber by hand.
3. Close the bolt

Yes, I know he will have to take a rod and knock the case out from the muzzle.

A. If the bolt will close on the case without the extractor, the problem is the extractor.
B. If the bolt will not close on the case without the extractor, the problem is the chamber.

If the problem is failure to feed from the magazine, go back to my prior post.

If A. above is encountered, and the case will chamber sans extractor, then polish down the front of the extractor to thin it until it all works fine. May take several tries.

If B. above is encountered and the case will not chamber sans extractor, the chamber is too short. No sense jacking with die setting, a couple of twists with a finishing reamer, and a check with a case or headspace gage will fix the problem, pretty darn quick, you betchum.

This assumes the case was sized in a good FL sizing die, properly installed and adjusted in the press. I never assume anything on trying to solve a problem on the internet. "Oh, you mean I have to screw the light bulb in the lamp for it to work?" Never comit the sin of assumption!!!

This stuff ain't rocket science. Sorry to be such a PITA, but the poor guy is running in circles chasing his tail and it is an easy problem to diagnose and fix.

Charger,

Pretty good information. Only thing I have a problem with is if the extractor face, claw, whatever you wish to call it, is too thick the bolt wouldn't close on an empty chamber...and it does. If you're referring to the the knife edge protruding too far towards the firing pin hole, in other words really bearing on the case extractor groove I don't believe it would pick up the case from the magazine then, but if it does the bolt camming has enough muscle to still close the bolt, that is unless the case is too long for the chamber.

I'd try a factory round even if I had to pull the bullet to be safe.

It depends how far short the chamber is if that is indeed the problem. I know factory 06's that won't chamber reloads. Me..if that's the case, I'd take some metal off the top of the shell holder and see how much the chamber is short before reaming it. Sometimes when you don't use the same reamer it was chambered with you will get a mark in the chamber, and although doesn't really affect much, it's cosmetically annoying to see the reverse of it on your fired cases.

Joe

[EMC45]

OK Joe.. Here is what the guy should do.

1. Remove the extractor and collar from the bolt.
2. Insert an empty case in the chamber by hand.
3. Close the bolt

Yes, I know he will have to take a rod and knock the case out from the muzzle.

A. If the bolt will close on the case without the extractor, the problem is the extractor.
B. If the bolt will not close on the case without the extractor, the problem is the chamber.

If the problem is failure to feed from the magazine, go back to my prior post.

If A. above is encountered, and the case will chamber sans extractor, then polish down the front of the extractor to thin it until it all works fine. May take several tries.

If B. above is encountered and the case will not chamber sans extractor, the chamber is too short. No sense jacking with die setting, a couple of twists with a finishing reamer, and a check with a case or headspace gage will fix the problem, pretty darn quick, you betchum.

This assumes the case was sized in a good FL sizing die, properly installed and adjusted in the press. I never assume anything on trying to solve a problem on the internet. "Oh, you mean I have to screw the light bulb in the lamp for it to work?" Never comit the sin of assumption!!!

This stuff ain't rocket science. Sorry to be such a PITA, but the poor guy is running in circles chasing his tail and it is an easy problem to diagnose and fix.



Good points. I should've known better about the trick without the extractor. Gonna try it tonight. Also thought the route of using a Finish Reamer too. I am using RCBS FL sizing die. Set to the shell holder then another 1/8 turn to cam over. Also tried a 1/4 turn as well. It is screwed in a Rockchucker Supreme. There is a Finish Reamer on Swap and sell on here may just get it.

[Char-Gar]

Joe... I am talking about the front of the extractor. The part that would govern the overall length of the extractor. These is some give/spring in the extractor and room for it to flex in the receiver. Without a case on the bolt face, the extractor might flex enough for the bolt to close fine. Put in the case, and there is no place to flex left and a problem pops up that was not there when running an empty bolt.

I have six rifles chambered for 30-06 now and have owned a score more. I have never seen a factory chamber than would not accept reloads..IF..the FL die is properly made, installed and adjusted in the press. A quick check with a Wilson guage will tell quickly of the FL sized case is withing maximum and mininum headspace. If not then the die is funkly.

A set of 30-06 headspace gages have lived in my tool box for 30 years and I have yet to find a actory f30-06 rifle that was not somewhere withing the normal range. I guess you have just drawn the short straw with some of your rifles.

If the problem is indeed a short chamber, you might take some stock off the top of the shell holder and shove the shoulder of the case back a tad more. But, in my way of thinking, this is not fixing the problem, just kicking the can down the road with a "make do/jury rig" solution.

Any rifle that lives in my place will chamber factory ammo or handloads made to proper specs. If not they will be fixed so they do, or sold down river, if I don't want to mess with them. But, honesty demanded I tell the new owner about the problem. I am just funny that way.

[Char-Gar]

EMC45... Unless your die or shell holder is out of spec, you should be fine with your cases.

There always exists the chance on or both might be funky unless you have a way to check. That is where the Wilson gage comes in handy. It will tell you if your die is adjusted within specs, tell you if your chamber is near max or minium, and if your cases are too long or too short. They are cheap enough and I keep one for every bottleneck cartridge I use.

Problem solving is the process of eliminated each possible cause until you nail it down to the culprit. With a Wilson gage you can exclude the ammo or die setting from the equation OR determine that is the problem.

Random guesswork is a formula for great frustration in problem solving. A linear path until you stumble over the problem makes life and fixing stuff much easier. All gun related problems WILL YIELD and give up their cause.

[StarMetal]

Joe... I am talking about the front of the extractor. The part that would govern the overall length of the extractor. These is some give/spring in the extractor and room for it to flex in the receiver. Without a case on the bolt face, the extractor might flex enough for the bolt to close fine. Put in the case, and there is no place to flex left and a problem pops up that was not there when running an empty bolt.

I have six rifles chambered for 30-06 now and have owned a score more. I have never seen a factory chamber than would not accept reloads..IF..the FL die is properly made, installed and adjusted in the press. A quick check with a Wilson guage will tell quickly of the FL sized case is withing maximum and mininum headspace. If not then the die is funkly.

A set of 30-06 headspace gages have lived in my tool box for 30 years and I have yet to find a actory f30-06 rifle that was not somewhere withing the normal range. I guess you have just drawn the short straw with some of your rifles.

If the problem is indeed a short chamber, you might take some stock off the top of the shell holder and shove the shoulder of the case back a tad more. But, in my way of thinking, this is not fixing the problem, just kicking the can down the road with a "make do/jury rig" solution.

Any rifle that lives in my place will chamber factory ammo or handloads made to proper specs. If not they will be fixed so they do, or sold down river, if I don't want to mess with them. But, honesty demanded I tell the new owner about the problem. I am just funny that way.

I see what you're saying. I'd like to see him try a factory round (he could remove the firing pin to be safe).

Years ago I was reloading for two brothers that were friends of mine. We all had 30-06's. The one had a Model 70 Win, and the other had a Model 700 Rem. I have Sakos , CZ's, and 03 Springfields. The reloads wouldn't chamber in the Model 700 at all. It wasn't case length of bullet seating depth. I plum had a really tight chamber. I would work with factory ammo though.

Let's see if the poster marker pens that case fully or tries a factory round.

I understand your making things correct. If one is in a pinch money wise he can grind the shellholder if the headspace is a tad short. Some do the reverse on headspace that is a tad long and don't size fully. Other things to be tried too are different sizer dies. Never know he may have one that's not bring it down fully.

This brings up an interesting scenario. Say he borrows a small base sizer and then the cases fit? Should he use the chamber reamer then?

Joe

[Char-Gar]

EMC45... Unless your die or shell holder is out of spec, you should be fine with your cases.

There always exists the chance on or both might be funky unless you have a way to check. That is where the Wilson gage comes in handy. It will tell you if your die is adjusted within specs, tell you if your chamber is near max or minium, and if your cases are too long or too short. They are cheap enough and I keep one for every bottleneck cartridge I use.

Problem solving is the process of eliminated each possible cause until you nail it down to the culprit. With a Wilson gage you can exclude the ammo or die setting from the equation OR determine that is the problem.

Random guesswork is a formula for great frustration in problem solving. A linear path until you stumble over the problem makes life and fixing stuff much easier. All gun related problems WILL YIELD and give up their cause.

[EMC45]

Chargar,
I did the bolt trick without striker and extractor. I have heard of that in the past, but it slipped my mind. It closed with less difficulty then with the extractor, but still difficult. Soooooo I took a marker and marked the ENTIRE case to see what I was up against. The only rub was midway down the case all the way around it. No other marks on the case AT ALL! There is also a corresponding "darkness" in the chamber area in that section as well. Maybe a dull reamer? Who knows. Maybe some chatter or galling? I will try to JB lap it smoother very carefully with a wrapped bore brush. Now I put all the bolt back together and got some serious resistance! I took the marker and colored the front of the extractor and got some rubbing. Very difficult to close the bolt with extractor in place. Will gently remove some metal from the front slowly. I thought of the spring back you spoke of. When a case is under the hook it can't flex, but when it is empty it can flex back slightly.

[JSH]

rechambered, hmmmm
I am not sure an 06 will feed properly from the mag, length issues?
a rechamber from the 7.65x53 to the 06 , may have been some chatter going on if done wrong or a chip caused some galling
jeff

[Char-Gar]

Sounds like you have a little ridge of metal in that chamber. Maybe it can be polished out and maybe not. Anway, you are on the right track and moving in a linear direction.

[scrapcan]

see if the spot in the chamber corresponds to the shoulder of the original chambering. sometimes gettign the reamer started in the the process can be interesting and give intersting results. I am not familar with nor looked at the dimensions fo the original compared to the 30-06 so that is up to someone else.

Also Chargar is correct in thatt the face and side angle of the extractor may need to be fit. You may have to change the angled face that goes into the extractor groove ( thickness, width, and shape) or the sloped shoulder at the front outside edge of the extractor where it goes into the receiver. If the lip that goes in extractor groove is too long it will flex the extractor out and can bind with a case in place but no issue when empty. Can also be the lip that runs in the guide slot in the bolt ( the little lip behind the actual extractor lip that goes in extractor groove).

So using the layout fluid or marker ont eh extractor also to see where it may be rubbing.

[EMC45]

I was also thinking if the steel wool and JB lab doesn't work to take some dowel and split it and slip in some fine grit wet/dry with some Kroil on it. Run it in a drill a little and check, run a little and check etc. Then finalize it with some steel wool or really fine wet/dry.

[StarMetal]

I was also thinking if the steel wool and JB lab doesn't work to take some dowel and split it and slip in some fine grit wet/dry with some Kroil on it. Run it in a drill a little and check, run a little and check etc. Then finalize it with some steel wool or really fine wet/dry.


If it's enough to stop a resized case from fitting I'd either rent a chamber reamer and clean it up or take it to a gunsmith and have him do rather then end up messing it up further. Believe me. I believe Chargar will even tell you that. Better safe then sorry.

Joe

[Uncle Grinch]

EMC45,

Like Starmetal says, if it doesn't work out, have a gunsmith set the barrel back and rechamber it. You have some good ones there in Dublin, GA.

Let me know if you give up on it. I'll take it off your hands. I was actually watching it on the GON forum.

Good luck!

Mike

[StarMetal]

Actually I said see if it will clean up with a reamer done by the poster or a gunsmith. Pulling the barrel and setting it back is the last resort. With some of the high prices some smiths charge doing that may cost more then a cheap new barrel replacement.

Joe

[Uncle Grinch]

Actually I said see if it will clean up with a reamer done by the poster or a gunsmith. Pulling the barrel and setting it back is the last resort. With some of the high prices some smiths charge doing that may cost more then a cheap new barrel replacement.

Joe

I stand corrected Joe.
Depending on how much reaming is needed, EMC45 may be faced with making that choice.

[StarMetal]

I stand corrected Joe.
Depending on how much reaming is needed, EMC45 may be faced with making that choice.

No problems Mike, I just didn't want him to get scared away from going to a gunsmith. Yes you are correct that one can get into trouble fast using a reamer. His rifle sounds good except for the noted problem and hopefully it can be corrected cheaply.

Joe

[EMC45]

I am wanting to go the cheap route. I think it will turn out to be a good shooter.

[StarMetal]

I am wanting to go the cheap route. I think it will turn out to be a good shooter.

Then rent a reamer from Elk Reamers. Look them up on the internet. Will cost you about 30 some dollars round trip. Best way to go first before that lapping method.

Joe

[EMC45]

There's one for sale here on the Swap and sell. I may get it.

[Tazman1602]

There's one for sale here on the Swap and sell. I may get it.

Oh Lord no man don't do that. That rifle won't work and you should just sell it to me........<GRIN>

Having followed this thread I can offer some advice from a guy who's built dozens of these and has a Montana Rifle Co. barrelled 1909 Argentine he kept for his own rifle......

That action will feed '06 no problem if it's correct...BUT, you can't seat them out real far or use extremely long bullets because of the limitations of the magazine/feedramp.

That extractor you got doesn't sound like the issue, I've swapped and changed those a BUNCH with zero problems. What you DO need is a set of "go", "no-go" gauges to check for headspace. That bolt should fall like butter on a "go" gauge but not close on a "no-go" gauge.

That will tell you whether it's been chambered properly. For goodness sake if you get the finish reamer you ARE going to need these gauges and whatever you do don't get upset because the "go" gauge isn't allowing the bolt to close and start putting weight on the reamer..............and don't ask me how I know that one.....

Hope you get it going, that's a NICE action and VERY strong. The one I kept for myself after I got out of the business and had MRC barrel shoots half MOA all day long................when I can hold it that steady and when my eyes focus...

Art

[EMC45]

Both this and my 7X57 are going to be outfitted with an Adams and Bennett. Period. The are both matching numbers rifles. The barrel on the 7X57 is done, and the barrel on the 1909 is shiny and nice, but the above mentioned problems and the fact the groove is .312 are the reasons I am doing this. I can get both shooting hopefully by next year! Elk Ridge Reamer Rental is where I will get the reamers as well. The A&B barrels are short chambered and require a finish reamer to complete it.

[StarMetal]

If you're putting a new barrel on the 1909 then why are we messing with answering your problems with the existing barrel?

Joe

[EMC45]

If you're putting a new barrel on the 1909 then why are we messing with answering your problems with the existing barrel?

Joe

Came to this conclusion this morning. I do appreciate all the help though.

[MtGun44]

How about chambering a factory round or breaking down a factory round an
seeing if the unfired factory case will chamber with or without the extractor?

After that, I'd be casting the chamber to see what you actually have. Cerrosafe
will tell the tale directly, all this other fiddling is indirect "hearsay" evidence.

Bill

[EMC45]

There is for sure a ring in the chamber. The groove diameter is .312 Which would be a whole other batch of fiddling. If I rebarrel I know it is .308 and after finish reaming it will be to spec. So I will have 2 rifles that will shoot instead of propping up wall space. I do appreciate the head scratching and hand wringing though. Didn't mean to lead anyone down a rabbit trail with this project. Sorry if I did.

[StarMetal]

There is for sure a ring in the chamber. The groove diameter is .312 Which would be a whole other batch of fiddling. If I rebarrel I know it is .308 and after finish reaming it will be to spec. So I will have 2 rifles that will shoot instead of propping up wall space. I do appreciate the head scratching and hand wringing though. Didn't mean to lead anyone down a rabbit trail with this project. Sorry if I did.

After you fix that chamber it will still shoot cast well. There are many molds that will drop that fat. In addition many bullet companies sell jacketed bullets in the .312 range.

Joe

[EMC45]

I know it will Joe and I have a .312 mold as well, but going with the new barrel will give me a known groove diameter, clean proper chamber, and no spots or dark areas in the rifling either. I plan to keep the 30-06 a cast gun with occasional J loads. The 7X57 not sure yet. I am thinking barrel band front sight and either folding leaves for the rear or a quality peep. That's for both.

[Char-Gar]

Coming up with a Fat 30 mold that will shoot well in a .312 barrel is not a great trick. We have done a bunch of group buys for molds that will work just fine. If that is the only issue, it is simple to solve.

Whether you go with a new barrel or fix this one, good luck.