Why am I disappointed?

[vacek]

It is self-evident that David Scovill, Editor in Chief of Handloader, is knowlegeable and articulate on the science of rolling your own. In his position it is also part of his role to address the questions, issues and disgruntlement of the customer; i.e. those who pay for the magazine.

I was disappointed with his tone and approach to addressing emails that apparently got under his skin. No doubt one or some of the emails took a needless critical shot at the magazine and another, apparently to an expert, contained wild speculation and such. Regardless, was this the most professional way to address them?

I guess I always believed that the most wasted and/or dangerous question was the question never asked. We each have our strengths, experience and expertise within different subjects and disciplines and to that we owe a complete, modest, and non-pompous response to the questions coming our way.

In compare and contrast I looked at Brian Pearce's responses to questions and he was not only complete in his answers but addressed those questions in a civil manner. It also appears from this forum that Mike Venturino also allows criticism of his writing while keeping civil. To these two gentlemen, much appreciated.

Just an observation.

[DLCTEX]

That's why they are my two favorite writers. They're like the guys next door, non-Zumbo.

[Shiloh]

Zumbo sort of fell off the face of the earth after slamming the black rifles and their owners and shooters. He cut his own throat. So be it. Good Riddance Jim Zumbo!!

Shiloh

[Bret4207]

I have been assured that Ol' Chicken Neck Scovile is a wonderful man of fine character, but his writing sends me into the blind staggers nearly every issue. You're not alone.

[44man]

I ran afoul of Scovill once myself. When the .475 became legit I could find almost no loading info so I wrote him asking for an article on loading it.
I got a very nasty response from him and he referred me to an old article. I dug it out and there was nothing of value, sort of a passing look at a Freedom, like the caliber would never take off and wasn't worth the time.
His response to me was way out of line because I was nice and just asked. I almost dropped the magazine right then and there.
Mike, how about thorough load articles on the big boomers?
I get piles of PM's and E mails asking for help, which I am more then happy to do, I will help anyone, anytime but you can reach more people.
One gun at a time like the .475 can supply you with months of articles, then go to the .454 and the .50's. These calibers are becoming so popular yet nothing is printed.
One month alone can be devoted on how to hold and control the guns. Another month will take up twist rates and how to load for each. Another month on boolit hardness, gas checks and PB and how and when to use each.

[vacek]

1. Scovill probably is a decent man, I just felt he needed to be more civil. His information is useful and complete but he comes across like a lot of engineers I know.

2. Not to be dumb but who is Zumbo?

[HollandNut]

Zumbo was a writer for quite a few years until the above mentioned throat cutting ..

Scovill seems knowledgeable , but never had first hand experience , as 44man ..

Like Gary Sitton better .. RIP...

I let my sub to them expire about a year ago , was the only mag I subbed to anymore ..

[vacek]

OK. I went out and read a news article regarding Jim Zumbo's downfall. It appears that a person that had been a lifelong supporter of hunting, fishing, youth, basically was crucified for making a really stupid (don't we all once in awhile) remark on his blog, with his terrorist comment.

Again, this is what my original post was/is all about. I understand the need for those of us who believe in the right to arms to adamantly support our right and to fight back.

Have we become so "fundamental" in our dogma that we crucify our own when they screw up by the numbers? Sounds like our community was a little too fast on the hair trigger with that one.

[doghawg]

I personally appreciate Dave Scovill's writing style....I don't find myself wondering.."How does he really feel?". :-) I usually find myself agreeing with him on most issues that get him wound up. Don't know how he could be an 'OL Chicken Neck though....The young pup is about MY age! :groner:

[Mike Venturino]

.44 Man: I appreciate your confidence in me but for two reasons I can't tackle the big-boomers.

1 is that I'm really not interested in them as BPCR Silhouette competition and the military rifles are consuming all my passion right now.

2 and perhaps most important is that artritis in my hands, wrists, and elbows just won't allow it. I also have it in knees, shoulders, and spine too but the former joints affect the handgun shooting. I can fire a .45 ACP all day with no problems. More recoil than that nowadays and I suffer.

As for gun magazine editors, I've known most now for 30 years. Dave Scovill and Roy Huntington have been the all time best. I'm proud to call them both friends. Roy was a cop for 20 years before becoming an editor and his beautiful wife Suzi retired as a motorcycle cop a couple years back. Dave Scovill was a U.S. Navy officer and naval aviator and flew off of carriers. I've never known either to not speak the truth as they see it. I would trust either with anything I owned.

MLV

[sundog]

Vacek, it's a two way street. Besides, he should have done some homework before calling fellow gun owners terrorists. The "T" word belongs to someone who would do what happened on 9/11.

[StarMetal]

.44 Man: I appreciate your confidence in me but for two reasons I can't tackle the big-boomers.

1 is that I'm really not interested in them as BPCR Silhouette competition and the military rifles are consuming all my passion right now.

2 and perhaps most important is that artritis in my hands, wrists, and elbows just won't allow it. I also have it in knees, shoulders, and spine too but the former joints affect the handgun shooting. I can fire a .45 ACP all day with no problems. More recoil than that nowadays and I suffer.

As for gun magazine editors, I've known most now for 30 years. Dave Scovill and Roy Huntington have been the all time best. I'm proud to call them both friends. Roy was a cop for 20 years before becoming an editor and his beautiful wife Suzi retired as a motorcycle cop a couple years back. Dave Scovill was a U.S. Navy officer and naval aviator and flew off of carriers. I've never known either to not speak the truth as they see it. I would trust either with anything I owned.

MLV

Mike,

You still good friends with Hank Williams Jr. ?

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Yep. We stay in close touch, except I seldom hear from him during hunting season. He was out here a few weeks back and we had dinner.

[Jaybird62]

We all know that alcohol and guns do not mix. Maybe alcohol and compters don't mix either. It seems that the aforementioned gun writer who fell from grace shouldn't have had that after-coyote-hunt beverage before he remembered that he had a deadline to meet to post to his blog. Too bad that he didn't keep a lid on his opinion about black guns just before his sponsor (Remington) sealed the deal to buy a black gun company.

I like black guns, and I like Jim Zumbo, too. He's a good guy, just made a mistake.

[targetshootr]

One of my mags, probably Am Handgunner, seems to delight in being unpleasant on the letters page. Their attitude is apparently anyone who disagrees with their take on things is a librul/commie/pinko. What they don't seem to get is that the days of everyone-who-owns-a-gun-must-stick-to-the-same-script viewpoint are gone. More and more gun people have no problem calling a spade a spade regardless of party or political correctness.

[bobke]

" perhaps most important is that artritis in my hands, wrists, and elbows just won't allow it. I also have it in knees, shoulders, and spine too".

mike-
do some homework on a homeopathic product called "traumeel". i've just ordered some on the recommendation of a friend who cared for his mother with severe rheumetoid arthritis and it proved a revelation to both he, his mother and doctor in it's positive impact on joint flexibility and range of motion. anything's worth a try, eh?
bobke

[Potsy]

I was kind of a pup when the big boomers (.475, .500 Linebaugh, etc.) started coming out (mid to late 80's). Rifle and Handloader really hadn't appeared on the shelves at Kroger or Wal-Mart. The only one I remember writing about them was Ross Seyfried (whom I REALLY wish would come back to Rifle or Handloader, probably never happen).
Scovill has done some really good articles, and like a lot of writers, feels compelled to write the occasional opinion piece that sometimes doesn't go over very well. He wrote one called "I never read Jack O'Connor" a few years back that went over about like a pork chop at passover.

[mpmarty]

I don't believe Jim Zumbo was crucified needlessly. I do regret his apparent demise from the gun rags.

What is more important for us ALL to keep in mind is that there is no such thing as a "bad" firearm or one to look down on. For too many years the four shots a year hunters looked down on and denigrated the fast draw shooters. Trap shooters and skeet shooters seemed to disdain prairie dog shooters. Law enforcement types in their PPC shoots laughed at IPSC in its formative years.

Wake up folks, we're all in this leaky boat together and the anti gun crowd is sending one torpedo after another at us.

I am over seventy years old and when I think of my teen age years as a small bore competitor and all the great shooting that was available and more importantly acceptable to the general public back then I get depressed.

Each time we denigrate a shooting activity we weaken our own positions on gun ownership and enjoyment.

The only thing worse than the gun banners is apathy in our own ranks.

[StarMetal]

I'd like to know why Rick Jamison messed up his gun writing career so bad. I know the details, I mean why, how did he get that way and come to do what he did? Mike you know?

Joe

[44man]

.44 Man: I appreciate your confidence in me but for two reasons I can't tackle the big-boomers.

1 is that I'm really not interested in them as BPCR Silhouette competition and the military rifles are consuming all my passion right now.

2 and perhaps most important is that artritis in my hands, wrists, and elbows just won't allow it. I also have it in knees, shoulders, and spine too but the former joints affect the handgun shooting. I can fire a .45 ACP all day with no problems. More recoil than that nowadays and I suffer.

As for gun magazine editors, I've known most now for 30 years. Dave Scovill and Roy Huntington have been the all time best. I'm proud to call them both friends. Roy was a cop for 20 years before becoming an editor and his beautiful wife Suzi retired as a motorcycle cop a couple years back. Dave Scovill was a U.S. Navy officer and naval aviator and flew off of carriers. I've never known either to not speak the truth as they see it. I would trust either with anything I owned.

MLV
OK, I understand Mike. My wife has two ruptured disks and they are pressing on nerves. The damage started on Feb 2008 when a girl ran into her car and not long ago it has progressed to the side of the spine. The MRI shows the initial damage but it is going to be a long haul to get anything from the insurance company.
She started on disk decompression Monday, 4 times a week for a long time, then therapy to strengthen muscles. Most of my week will be spent on the road.
Thankfully at 72 I can still shoot 82# bows and shoot the big guns. My only problems are at the base of my thumbs.
Dave should be more civil to his readers. He might be a great guy but comes across in a poor way. But then, so do I, being an old fart! :smile:
But I will always say I am sorry and I also will say I am sorry for the problems you are having. The more you explain, the more I like you and I wish we lived close.
I will never suck up to anyone or kiss butt, but to just have ordinary friends is where it is at and I want to leave this earth with no enemies.

[mpmarty]

44Man "leave this earth with no enemies"?

I feel the same way but at over seventy years of age I'm not sure I've got enough time left to eliminate all of them.:groner:

[HollandNut]

Ya know theres an old saying about sticking together or hanging seperately ..

Me ??

Even tho' I was a Gunner in the Navy for twenty two years , military hardware , except for the the 45 and the big guns dont do nothing for me , never have , but I'm not gonna bash someone who enjoys them either ..

[looseprojectile]

I'll be seventy one on 12/20 . I plan on out living all my enemies. Would like to plan on getting all their gear. Actually don't have many enemies except for one religious group. I have already out lived several people that I didn't like.
But the older I get the less I care. You don't suppose I am getting more tolerant In my old age do you?
I see Zumbo as a person with his own opinion and and I have a few opinions of my own that wouldn't be popular if I published them in a magazine or on a blog.
I am sort of careful to try to not criticize others and use what they print that helps me and forget that which I don't agree with.
The only people that would turn around in my driveway are people that don't know me. When my security system goes off [dog] I have a gun in my hand.
Got testy in my old age.

Life is good

[mpmarty]

Happy birthday Loose. You're five weeks older than me.

[AZ-Stew]

I spent about 45 minutes talking to Dave Scovill at the NRA convention last spring. He's an interesting, intelligent and nice guy to talk to in person. Apparently, like me, he occasionally comes across in his writings as a little brusque. His shooting interests differ a bit from mine, but I enjoy reading his articles. I usually learn something from them, but am always entertained.

Regards,

Stew

[Bret4207]

OK. I went out and read a news article regarding Jim Zumbo's downfall. It appears that a person that had been a lifelong supporter of hunting, fishing, youth, basically was crucified for making a really stupid (don't we all once in awhile) remark on his blog, with his terrorist comment.

Again, this is what my original post was/is all about. I understand the need for those of us who believe in the right to arms to adamantly support our right and to fight back.

Have we become so "fundamental" in our dogma that we crucify our own when they screw up by the numbers? Sounds like our community was a little too fast on the hair trigger with that one.

Yup. These days you can;t go half way. Half way got us to the point our basic rights are in jeopardy.

[BeeMan]

Vacek,

One of the things that makes this board user friendly is we generally avoid personalty and gunwriter debates.

I encourage you to ask a question or contribute something first hand to the knowledge base here. That is what this board does best.

BeeMan (an engineer who prefers discussion of ideas over events or personalities)

[semtav]

. 1 is that I'm really not interested in them as BPCR Silhouette competition and the military rifles are consuming all my passion right now.

2 and perhaps most important is that artritis in my hands, wrists, and elbows just won't allow it. I also have it in knees, shoulders, and spine too but the former joints affect the handgun shooting. I can fire a .45 ACP all day with no problems. More recoil than that nowadays and I suffer.

MLV

Mike, you really need to get into the smallbore stuff, like 218 Bee, 219 Zipper, 25-20, 25-35 etc, oh and the 6.5 carcano.

I like going against the bigger guns (boom, boom, ping, boom--- boom, boom, ping, boom :brokenima

[felix]

Very seldom does a scientist, engineer, technician make a good author in the literary sense. The best example in the last century, in my opinion, was a MD named Michael Crichton (pronounced crayton). ... felix

[Shiloh]

OK. I went out and read a news article regarding Jim Zumbo's downfall. It appears that a person that had been a lifelong supporter of hunting, fishing, youth, basically was crucified for making a really stupid (don't we all once in awhile) remark on his blog, with his terrorist comment.

Again, this is what my original post was/is all about. I understand the need for those of us who believe in the right to arms to adamantly support our right and to fight back.

Have we become so "fundamental" in our dogma that we crucify our own when they screw up by the numbers? Sounds like our community was a little too fast on the hair trigger with that one.

Apparently, a supporter of these things on his terms, and that did not include semi-auto military rifles. Then to say there was no need for them as they had no place in the hunting arena. Tell that to anyone who has hunted prairie dogs, wood chuck or any other varmint type critter. To call them terrorist weapons!! He played into the hands of the gun-grabbing nazis.

The gun grabbers want them ALL. Black rifles and other semi autos are just the most obvious first step. Have you seen some of the provisions that the anti's call "reasonable" gun control laws??

What Zumbo did was an egregious back stabbing of anyone who shoots, hunts, or owns firearms for defense or security. By referring to them as terroistic weapons, he labels anyone who owns or shoots them terrorists. Folks who sponsored him dropped him in a heartbeat.

I respectfully disagree on the statement of shooters, manufacturers, and vendors being a little too hair triggered, He got what he deserved. What he did went way beyond a mere screw up.

Shiloh

[Paladin 56]

I posted on this on another forum not long after Zumbo's statement. I think it still applies.


The shortsighted attitude of "what good is that" or "who needs that" is the main reason we shooters as a group are still fighting separate battles. Lack of solidarity among Cowboy Action, Skeet, Trap, IPSC, Benchrest, Silhouette, Class III, Sporting Clays, Bullseye, HP Rifle, and all other shooters is the division required to keep gun control from going away forever. None of the disciplines listed, and all those not listed, care one iota what happens to the others, so long as they aren't affected. A cause Black Powder shooters feel is worth fighting for should not only be embraced by Benchrest, IPSC, 1000 Yard Match, Sporting Clays and all the rest, but pushed forward by all.

Anyone spending time and money burning powder should have the full support of all others who spend their time and money burning powder, regardless of the firearms and methods used.

Were it not for all of the arrogant, elitist, self-righteous, childish attitudes within the shooting fraternity, Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms would indeed be a convenience store, and gun control really would be about hitting your target. IMHO, of course.

[Shiloh]

Well Done Paladin.

I am not a skeet or trap shooter. I find an air of elitism and smarmyness is a not so subtle underlying trait shown by some, but not all of them. I'm happy that you have a $7000 Perazzi shotgun. I suppose the ego goes with having the means to own and shoot it. To each, there own. I would be the last one to ban this or any other type of safe, recognized, formal or informal shooting.

Same goes with IPSC. I think it was Jeff Cooper who said it stood for
Irrational People Squabbling Constantly. I quit going because it got so tedious and hairsplitting. It wasn't about folks having fun anymore. I heard later that a lot of the arrogant egotistical hard cases were later run out. Someone with a $2500 race gun gets outscored by a shooter proficient with a more or less stock service weapon, and it got personal.

The point is, that we shooters in all aspects of the hunting and shooting disciplines must stick together. We are in it together to see that the shooting sports and preserved.

As Ben Franklin said, We must all hang together or we will certainly all hand separately.
We need to quit the infighting from within the fraternity or it will be no more.

Shiloh

[Uncle R.]

Very seldom does a scientist, engineer, technician make a good author in the literary sense. The best example in the last century, in my opinion, was a MD named Michael Crichton (pronounced crayton). ... felix

Dang Felix - Are you sure?
I thought it was pronounced Crighton.
As in rhymes with "kite" - er - ton?
:smile:
Shows how much I know...
<
As for Mr. Zumbo -
What really P'ed me off about him was his half-hearted apology.
<
"I’m learning that many of my pals own AR-15’s and similar firearms and indeed use them for hunting. I was totally unaware that they were being used for legitimate hunting purposes. That is the absolute truth."
<
And what I wrote then still applies as well.
<
"Jim - in deference to your supposed "brotherhood" let me try to explain it to you one more time. It's NOT about hunting, Jim - it's about GUN CONTROL and that means PEOPLE control. It's about protecting freedom by keeping the means to resist tyranny (Foreign OR domestic!) in the hands of every man... If you can't imagine free men being well armed as a "legitimate" purpose then you truly ARE on the other side."
<
Zumbo had it coming. The idea that a man like that should be writing for and supported by gun owners or sponsored by the firearms industry is ludicrous.
<
Uncle R.

[Paladin 56]

Well Done Paladin.

I am not a skeet or trap shooter. I find an air of elitism and smarmyness is a not so subtle underlying trait shown by some, but not all of them. I'm happy that you have a $7000 Perazzi shotgun. I suppose the ego goes with having the means to own and shoot it. To each, there own. I would be the last one to ban this or any other type of safe, recognized, formal or informal shooting.

Same goes with IPSC. I think it was Jeff Cooper who said it stood for
Irrational People Squabbling Constantly. I quit going because it got so tedious and hairsplitting. It wasn't about folks having fun anymore. I heard later that a lot of the arrogant egotistical hard cases were later run out. Someone with a $2500 race gun gets outscored by a shooter proficient with a more or less stock service weapon, and it got personal.

The point is, that we shooters in all aspects of the hunting and shooting disciplines must stick together. We are in it together to see that the shooting sports and preserved.

As Ben Franklin said, We must all hang together or we will certainly all hang separately.
We need to quit the infighting from within the fraternity or it will be no more.

Shiloh

Thanks Shiloh. Looks like you've been there and done that as well.

Funny thing is, I've competed at one time or another with several different venues and they all pretty much see themselves in the same light.

When I was shooting trap, I thought the Perazzi folk were the elitist, but come to find out, it's trap shooters in general. When I was shooting Silhouettes I ran across those who weren't competing for the fun of it. They had to have the best of the best, and that is a good thing. Keeps innovation alive and strong. The problem was that they took offense when beaten by someone with "lesser" equipment, as in stock. Took it way too personal. Then there were the High Power shooters and their "if you don't shoot high power, you ain't a rilfeman" attitude.

Of course it isn't every single shooter in every single discipline, but its kind of like lawyers. 99% of 'em give the rest a bad name. OK, so shooters aren't that bad, but we can all tell the stories of those who stand out for all the wrong reasons. I've seen many help new comers to their sport by going way beyond what a lot of others would. Heck fire, the first high power match I ever shot (Reno, Nv) I only brought ammo and found someone willing to let me shoot their rifle while they were pulling targets. How many people would do that? Not many.

And its been the same with whatever discipline I've chosen to compete in, which is why, for the most part, I too, no longer compete since I just like to have fun and get out with those of like minds.

Point is, I'd rather hang together.

David

[vacek]

I am glad that Dave Scovill has been given a thumbs up by Mike V. who works with him and others who have met him. I do think his information is always good and that is why I read his editorials. I guess I am just getting oversensitive to the question of civility. My apologies for creating a thread that is not directly related to reloading information.

I just got a .22 Bator in the mail. I'm sure that will create a more relevant thread.

Interestingly enough in regards to the earlier post on bad backs, I just spent the day at the hospital and am returning for the night. My wife broke her back when she was 19 on her first and only mortorcycle ride. She is now 48. Anyway she had 5 vertebrae fused (1980) and the bottom one has worn out and crashed the other discs below. Today she got a fusion + 2 new discs. She has more metal in here that Bonnie and Clyde.

Again, my apologies for starting this thread.

[madcaster]

Brian Pearce,he seems to be in Elmer Keith's shadow a lot,but that is okay,he stands on his own as well with his rifle articles.
I miss the writing of Ross Seyfred something fierce,he was really good with his topics.The .22 rifle articles,bullet casting,and trigger pull articles were standouts in my mind.
I know some of these guys have hit a standstill on subjects,and I know some of the others are just nitpicking on speed and a very slight difference in caliber.
Me,I could never write,I am too satisfied with what works for me.

[HollandNut]

Very seldom does a scientist, engineer, technician make a good author in the literary sense.... felix

Probably true , as their training requires very detailed and specific data ..

Scovill being a former Naval Aviator would fall into the category ..

I remember when reading Jack O'Connor , Elmer Keith , Lucien Cary and Gene Hill ( he was one of the best ) , they had the majic that put you right there with them ..

Not many today that can do that ..

Jim Carmichael wrote in one of his books ( Book of the Rifle perhaps ?? ) , that there was a big shindig put on by one of the gun makers , all the NAMES were there .. They shot rifles and did some wingshooting .. He said most of them couldnt sight in their rifles and many couldnt hit a single bird ..

Makes ya wonder huh ??

[geargnasher]

I used to compete in IDPA, mostly fine, middle-class working, family-type folks. A few bad apples, but what ran me off was the "administration", it became all about the newest version of the rules, not about common sense. Those running the show at the local establishment were as aggravated as the competitors, but we had to play by the rules. So I quit. I used to shoot benchrest, gave it up because once I reached my competitive limit, I was bored. It was about the equipment, not about the comradery or fun. I still shoot (at) sporting clays, shoot D-class once every few months (about every 5th event at my local club). Constant bickering and fun-poking about which group are the bigger snobs: Trap, Skeet, or Clays shooters. Trying to get those groups to band together is like trying to get a dozen tomcats to sleep on the same couch. Everywhere I go for fun and competition there are elitist, holier-than-thou snobs that just love to show how pompous they are. Fortunately, there are a greater number of really fine folks, most I meet at the local range, just plinking and chewing the rag. Problem is, those fine folks usually aren't "activists", at most they are NRA members who rear their childeren to be responsible citizens and gun owners. The competition shooters are more likely to be seen and heard, and thus can do more to support our rights, but the same spirit that often drives one to competition also drives one to elitism. It's what makes fighter pilots, generals, and rock 'n' roll legends. It's called EGO, and can be good or bad depending upon one's ability to temper it with humility. So I shoot cans and homeade action targets with a few friends and family, just wish I had more like-minded people living nearby.

One of the best things about this board is, when I'm feeling discouraged by all the jerks I deal with during the day, that there ARE fine people still around, and can often be found here. It really does help.

Gear

[44man]

Geargnasher, you said a mouthful! I found the same thing in every type of shooting I did except one.
That one game is BPCR. I admit most have too much money for me but they seem to be the most friendly.
Archery and IHMSA showed the true colors of many. My friends and I went for fun and would be laughing and joking right up to the trigger pull or arrow release. Trying to joke with a shooter next to us was frowned on big time and we were shot a lot of mean looks. 99% of the shooters would not even talk to anyone. Now the strange thing was that the top shooters were very friendly, the rest hated us because there we were, new shooters, right off the street and we were beating the pants off everyone and shooting neck and neck with the best, many times beating them. They would come shake hands but the rest would sulk or leave.
Then one would sneak over to the range master and tell him I was doing something wrong like resting my barrel on a boot top. They would sneak behind me and watch but could never find me doing anything wrong because I didn't.
I advanced from beginner to International class in the shortest amount of shoots needed. All done with Rugers, SBH and Mark II. Then again with my XP 100, Wichita and MOA. I grew to dislike the game and it was getting expensive.
We never got angry with a miss or a loss, mostly we would laugh about it and threaten the shooter with a Billy club.
Then the time we broke up when my friend had shells in his pocket, then tried to load a Chapstick in his TC! [smilie=l:
The majority of shooters ruin events and is the reason many have turned to CAS. Not for me because that is also big bucks and silly rules.
There are just too many serious shooters, lots of cussing and anger.
I seen an archer wrap his bow around a tree because he missed. I can't shoot with people like that.
I poke a lot of fun and pull chains on the sites, some take offense at it. I have had to tone it down. Just don't expect me to quit all the way! :takinWiz:

[HollandNut]

Life's too short to be serious all the time ...

I never competed in shooting much , but the same menatlity is in other things we competed in as well ..

[Mike Venturino]

.44 Man is right. I only shoot BPCR Silhouette nowadays and a more fun loving crowd can't be found. Our crowd ranges from school janitors to doctors. Every month I drive 240 miles to Missoula (in warm weather) to shoot our 2 day match. There's a campground right at the range and we all sit around Friday and Saturday after the match having fun until dark. There are also other matches in the month here in Montana but Missoula gets the most attendance.

A new shooter shows up and one of the master class guys is apt to take him under his wing and get him going in the right direction. We have had new guys start winning matches in their first season or two that way.

If you can't stand joshing during a match you shouldn't show up at a BPCR Silhouette event. If you can't take cutting up you ought not to attend a BPCR Silhouette match, especially if Montanans are there.

And since ONLY lead alloy bullets without gas checks are allowed (swaged or cast - 99.9% are cast) you guys would find it interesting. The close targets are chickens at 200 meters. Sounds easy? They are offhand only. Rams at 500 meters are from cross sticks and require 2 MOA rifle and load accuracy at THE WORST.

As for buying a win? I've had my butt whipped soundly many times by somebody shooting one of the Pedersoli rifles.

My right shoulder is pounded to mush from a lifetime of shooting rifles - over 100,000 rounds through BPCRs in 28 years. I have to take pain pills to sleep after a match but I won't miss one if its at all possible.

MLV

[Char-Gar]

Gun Writers/Editors get lots of mail picking over what they wrote. They get tired of it and sometimes they become terse in their responses. I try not to write them, but I have on several occasions and I always regret doing it. Folks need encouragment in life as there are enough detractors and critics to go around. Those folks are never in short supply.

On the few time I have written, the response varied from polite to down right nasty. Only on one occasion did a writer fess up he had gotton it wrong. That was Jim Wilson.

One of Jim's first articles was about the early Texas Rangers and their use of Colt revolvers against the Comanche. He got the battle of Plum Creek and "Hays Big Fight" mixed up. It is easy to do if you don't go back and check your facts. He admitted he was working on memory and his memory failed him, and he would never put anything in print again that he did not check and double check. He never made any historical errors again. He is a good guy and an excellent writer. We stilll stay in touch from time to time.

I was in a profession where critical folks lined up to play gotcha with great regularity. I try not to do that to anyone else. I have on a few times, but it would have been better for me to just keep my big mouth shut.

I have also bashed some writers on the internet, and that I REALLY regret. Too soon old, too late smart! Living in a gold fish bowl is not fun, and I need to remember that and "Do unto others as I would want them to do unto me".

[Mike Venturino]

Chargar: You're so right. We all make mistakes at one time or the other. Here's a couple of instances. Once I wrote that the Civil War ended in April 1861. Of course I knew that it started in April 1861 and Lee surrendered to Grant on APRIL 9, 1965. It was a simple brain fart that my fingers typed one thing and my eyes and brain saw another. A reader sent me an e-mail about it and I said, "Yes, I made a mistake and am fully aware of it and being fairly up on Civil War history I know the proper dates." He wouldn't let go and actually debated the definition of "mistake." After several e-mails I finally got rude and he went away.

More recently I wrote about the Korean War and my memory reversed the numbers of two regiments. A reader who was there wrote a nice note pointing that out so I had the magazine print his letter, my very polite response and my thanks for his service in that awful conflict.

That's the difference in attitudes that some readers get from the very same writer.

[semtav]

Of course I knew that it started in April 1861 and Lee surrendered to Grant on APRIL 9, 1965.


And to think, I could have been there to watch that ;)

[Mike Venturino]

Great example of just what I mean!

MLV

[Char-Gar]

Mike... As you know the last battle of the War for Southern Independence (sorry, I am an unreconstructed Confederate) took place East of Brownsville, Texas near where the Rio Grande River flows into the Gulf of Mexico. It is known as the battle of Palmitto Ranch and was a running fight for several miles. The Confederates under J.S. "Rip" Ford kicked Yankee butt big time. They ran the Blue Bellies all way back to the water, where they got in their boats and rowed like crazy to Brazos Island where they were safe. Many, tried to swim the Rio Grande to Mexico to escape, and the Rebs had jolly good target practice killing them by the score in the water.

Anyway, the range where I shoot is located on that battleground. Still pretty rugged and filled with rattlesnakes, coyotes, wild hogs, deer, bobcats Nilgi and the like. Two weeks ago they had a three gun shoot and Jerry Miculek showed up. That poor guy, just knew he had fallen off the end of the world. Mexico is just fifty yards the other side of the fartherest berm.

Take care..BTW I don't often read American Handgunner but picked up a copy yesterday at the grocery store checkout counter. I didn't know you published in that mag. Being a fan of the Browning Hi-Power I really like your article. Good work. Adelante con animo!!

[Leftoverdj]

I solved the problem. I quit reading gun magazines and I quit shooting matches. These days I shoot in my back yard or I drive over to the range on a workday when it is near empty. Have more fun and avoid a lot of annoying people that way.

[HollandNut]

There's been some dipute over the last battle , one is Texas , one is near Columbus Ga and one is elsewhere , forget right off ..

Lee didnt surrender , Grant jus stole his sword and Lee was too much the gentleman to steal it back ..

So thats why the war is still going on ..

Actually it was/is The War Between the Americans and Yankees

[Char-Gar]

Lee did in fact surrender, but he lived to regret it. He later wrote he would have fought to the last drop of blood, had he know the South would have been subject to such a harsh and punitive military occupation the north called "reconstruction". It was not reconstruction, but the systematic destruction of the souther economy, culture and values.

The war did not end with Lee surrender. John Bell Hood needed some more time to surrender the Army of Tennessee and Jeff Davis played hide and seek with them for a while.

The Confederate troops stationed at Ft. Brown, knew of Lee's surrender, but as far as they were concerned the war was not over until General Walker of the Depatment of Texas said it was over. The Yanks felt no need to wait and many got a bloody grave for their impatience.

[TAWILDCATT]

I think if Lincoln had lived,the south would not have been subjected to the reconstruction.that was the democrates revenge on the south.each side has their own take on the war.as it is now I dont know of any one in the north that cares one way or another.I have a confederate battle flag.{new]and it to me, is a historic item.I married a atlantic/memphis girl.and one of my ancesters married a charleston girl in 1876.he and his brother were in the 54 mass at ft wagner,the brother was killed and he badly wounded.The war interests me as does the swamp fox.
by the way Mike I to have arty ritis.I have used DMSO.and you probably have damage to your wrist bones,from the recoil.I dont have big boomers,I am not into pain.I do have a ruger 45 colt I load for.I am going to cut back on the charge,as 9.5 of unique is more than I want.Its alright in the trapper.:coffee:

[Char-Gar]

TAWILDCATT --- YOu are 100% correct that had Lincoln lived there would have been no punative occupatioIn of the South. He wanted nothing of such a plan. Andrew Johnson who became President upon Lincoln's death was putty in the hands of the politicans who wanted their pound of flesh from the South and also wanted to pick over her bones. The South was laid bare and drained of every ounce of her blood and treasure by the Carpet Baggers. It was a hard and bitter time.

I known the folks in the North don't give a good %^*&N% #&@* but many in the South do. The effect of this period lasted for generations and is responsible for the hard feeling the South held toward the north. In fact the last of the punishment laws was not repealed until the early 1950's. (tariff's on good from the South).

I am no fan of Lincoln because of his playing fast and loose with the Constitution, but as you correctly stated, his death was a blow for the South.

My GGrandfather served with the 21 st. Texas Cavalary. Another GGGrandfather served with the 11 th. Texas Cavalry and yet another with the 10th Texas Infantry. He died in Catoosa Springs Georga in 1863.

Quite a number of collateral ancestors served with Lee including one Confederate General (Winfield Scott Featerston). In all of my resarch I have yet to find one ancestor of any kind who served in the Northern army. My family when cut bleeds grey!

Like many old shooters my hearing is shot, my shooting shoulder is mush, my shooting hand is full of arthritis and the tendons in my elbow are torn. Gee.. ain't this shooting hard recoiling guns fun?

[Bret4207]

Well, this northerner takes and interest. My ancestors fought for the Union and at least one lost an arm because of it and faimly history talks of work with the Underground Railroad. While I have no great love for Lincolns brazen abuse of power, I also have no intentions of ever paying reparations for something my family fought against.

BTW- Judging by the way things are today the South retained her heritage just fine. It's the New England area that lost it heritage to the city people, and mores the shame.

[StarMetal]

Well I was born in Pa just a few miles above the Mason Dixon Line, so I reckon that makes me a Yankee. My grand parents came over to this country in the very early 1900's so I owe nobody any reparations especially the Negroes. Now with that said I live in the South and knowing what I know I'd fought for the South. I've never cared much for the North or it's people. Like they say down South here they are rude and disrespectful. According to the history books the South killed more of the Union soldiers so in my book they won, but got screwed in the end. Lee also said had he thought of the idea of freeing the slave to fight for the South he would have done it. The Union beat him to the idea.

Joe

[Wayne Smith]

[QUOTE=Chargar;736056]TAWILDCATT --- Andrew Johnson who became President upon Lincoln's death was putty in the hands of the politicans who wanted their pound of flesh from the South and also wanted to pick over her bones. QUOTE]

Just a note, Chargar. I wouldn't call being impeached "being putty in their hands". It wasn't quite that simple.

[mpmarty]

My family settled Kentucky in or around 1820. We actually had family on both sides in uniform.

[stephen perry]

I bought these for $50 from my buds dead brother collection for $50 American. I also have my second set of each about 150 total. Another bud is going to sell me Handloader No. 1 for $10 and a lunch.

The first of each sold for 75 cents Handloader start in May -June 1966 Rifle starting in 1967. As most I enjoyed the authors then I stopped buying a couple years ago when it became obvious Handloader/Rifle is no better than Shooting Times which I enjoy more. Todays shooting environment is filled with technocrats both Amateurs and Professional. Most with nothing new some distorting the Laws of Physics.

Wished it tweren't so but shore nuff is. MRD. SAR.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[DevilDog83]

Yep. We stay in close touch, except I seldom hear from him during hunting season. He was out here a few weeks back and we had dinner.

Hey Mike,
I know you appreciate the round guns as well as all your cool WW2 stuff. I just finished some work on cutting down some .41 Mag brass to what I call .41 "SS" (short special). Very mild and very accurate. If you get snowed in and want to try something new, get back to me and I'll share my results that I have so far, thanks for all you do for our sport and regards from North Carolina, John

[Char-Gar]

Wayne.. IIRC Andrew Johnson resisted reconstruction for a time which was being pushed by "The Radical Republicans" Edwin Stanton a member of his Cabinet was a mole for The Radical Republicans and Johnson removed him. There was a Civil War law called the Tenure of Office Act which said the President could not remove a Cabinet Secretary without permission of Congress. This act was unconstutional so Johnson canned Stanton. Congress put Stanton back and Johnson canned him again.

There were 11 articles of impeachment against Johnson with the principal one being he violated the Tenure of Office Act. Although he was not convicted, Johnson saw he could not ever win a term of office on his own, so he folded his tent, steped aside and the Radical Republicans began Reconstruction in 1867 and it lasted ten brutal years.

Bret... I don' want to start an acramonious thread on the subject, which is easy to do, but the so called Civil War was not about slavery. It was about the preservation of the Union and the economic fallout of that happening. There were two or three slave states that stayed in the Union and slavery was legal in the District of Columbia. I won't go into the indenture practice which was rampant in the North and was defacto slavery even thought it did not carry that name.

When Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation he only freed the slaves in the "fighting South". He did not free the slaves in the North or in those areas of the South that were controled by the Yankee Army. The principal notion was to creat havock in the South and give unify the North around the war, which had grown very unpopular.

The Civil War was triggered by the election of Lincoln. He was elected without a single Electoral vote from the South. The South realized it had no voice in it's own goverment and like freedom loving men everywhere decided it was better to break away and live under a goverment of their own choosing rather than stay in the Union and live as vassels to the Northern politicians.

Slavery was then and is now a moral evil and it had strong opposition in the South including Robert E. Lee. Lee was a Virginian and his loyalty of Virginia was stronger than his loyalty to the Union. My ancestors were Texans and their loyalty was to their friends, neighbors and family in Texas. They fought not to keep slaves for less than ten percent of Southerns owned slaves, rather they fought to be free and because an invading army was marching down the road in their direction.

Folks like your ancestors who fought for the North have nothing to be ashamed of for they were American patriots. The men who wore the grey and followed Lee also have nothing to be ashamed of for they were American patriots as well.

The great suffering on behalf of the North and South was the product of greedy politicans and their quest for power, wealth and influence. That was the way of it in 1861 and is still the way of it in 2009. There was no great moral carusade behind that war, just proganda that persuaded good men there was a reason for them to walk into a hail of musket balls, cannon shot and steel.

Nobody ever wanted to die to line the pockets of their political leaders. Men of all ages have played hide the ball from their people, and then sent them out to die under false pretenses. Those false pretenses often get written into history books and become accepted as fact over time.

I honor all good men, North and South, who loved their country and shed their blood in the cause of freedom. The whole thing is a crying damn shame!!!

[Bret4207]

No argument Chargar, just saying that some of us do take an interest.

As for the men on both sides- I freely admit to crying like a little girl when I watched Picketts Charge in "Gettysburg", and also when the old Rebel Soldier tells his grandson in "Rough Riders", "They ain't Yankees son, those are Americans..." God bless them all and lets pray our nation never sees anything like that again.

[44man]

Has anything changed? Obama was not voted in by the people either, just the heavily populated areas with the most on the dole from our tax dollars and the high crime areas.
With those in Congress and the POTUS, we are on the road to ruin and maybe another civil war.
I am a northener from Ohio but have held all of the great fighting men from both sides in high regard and will forever be ashamed of what the government and all involved did to the American Indians.
I HATE POLITICIANS and the fact that they do not listen to the people that put them in office. We have no government "For the people, by the people."
I wish the South would have won!
I pray the mid term elections toss all the creeps out of office.

[Char-Gar]

44man. Like you I wish the South had won. I tell myself we would have a goverment much closer to that intended by the Founding Fathers. That is what I tell myself.

However in my saner moments, I don't think things would be much different. We would just have Confederate skunks in office doing the same thing the Union skunks do.

The sinful, self centered and venal nature of the human animal transcends culture, geography, language, or form of goverment. A sick and perverted human nature lies at the bottom of all human problems. Now I am starting to preach.

[stephen perry]

Chargar knows it the best almost as much as me but only because I have a larger Civil War library than most.

44 man your view of Obama is your prejudice against him. With todays population density distribution no President wins without a majority of electors to the Electorial College not just a faction of population centers as you suggest. People on the dole as you suggest and high crime areas vote the least. Seems even Ohio has it's share of serial killers and political degenerates too.

Also Chargar and 44 man you don't understand that the South claimed themselves a seperate Country from the US. The South fought because they were attacked or invaded. Slavery as part of the Civil War was not an issue until 1863 some 2 years after the war started. The Confederacy sued for peace several times indicating they would respect United States sovereignty never to conquer the US. Lincoln never viewed the Confereacy as a legitimate Country and pledged to bring the South back into the Union by force. Some 80% of the Civil War was fought in Virginia.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Fixxah]

This thread was interesting until the last page.

What about slaves? Want them too? Get a grip on yourself, the war is over and nobody won.

Put the rebel flag up your [edit] for all I care, it ain't gonna make no boolits.

[Char-Gar]

"Also Chargar and 44 man you don't understand that the South claimed themselves a seperate Country from the US. The South fought because they were attacked or invaded. Slavery as part of the Civil War was not an issue until 1863 some 2 years after the war started. The Confederacy sued for peace several times indicating they would respect United States sovereignty never to conquer the US. Lincoln never viewed the Confereacy as a legitimate Country and pledged to bring the South back into the Union by force. Some 80% of the Civil War was fought in Virginia."

Oh yes Stephen I do understand all of that and agree with you fully. That is basic stuff. The South viewed membership in the Union from Jefferson's "Compact" theory. If the states had the freedom to join or not join, they also had the freedom to suceed. There were others states that threatned to suceed over earlier issues. The New England states as an example. But they never carried through with the threat.

The United States Constitution contains the process by which states join the union, the last being Arizona about 1912 or so. However the Constitution is silent on how a state "unjoins" or gets out. The South felt that was implicit under Jefferson's Compact Theory of the Union. Lincoln would not recognize the Souths right to leave and sought to keep them in the union by force of arms. That is why I wrote earlier, the war was not about slavery, but about the preservation of the Union.

I once heard it said, that you can tie two cats together by their tales and have union, but you won't have unity. The South was forced to remain a part of the Union and hence the lingering feelings of resentment in the South. It is pretty mild these days, but it is there none-the-less. Folks in the North just don't seem to get it. They were not forced to be part of a country against their will, and punished for the effort to break away.

Lest folks not understand where my loyalties are.. MY ancesors came to Virginia in 1617 and several of them fought in the American Revolution. Others of my ancestors were with Andy Jackson in the battle of New Orleans. Still others served in the Confederate Army, others yet in the Spanish American War. My Grandfather who raised me was a Vetern of WWI and II. My Father is a vetern of WWII and Korea. I was headed for a career in the military until a sports accident destroyed my knee at age 17. It was the greatest disappoint in my life. I spent my life serving my country and my fellow human beings in other ways. I am an American through and through of the conservative, State's Rights, Confederate stripe.

BTW.. How do you know your libary is bigger? My wife is a college history professor and the Civil War is her strong focus. Together we have a sustantial historical library. She are her family goes back to Colonial times as well, and they are all fighters and American patriots of the Confederate stripe.

Thanks for your input, I enjoy this topic as you can tell. Others may not, but that is just the way of it. This topic has drifted from the original post about gun writers and I expect someone will be along shortly to close it down and tell us to take our selves to the Politics/Off Topic area. I guess that will be my fault and I started the drift.

[StarMetal]

Charger you said: The South was forced to remain a part of the Union and hence the lingering feelings of resentment in the South. It is pretty mild these days, but it is there none-the-less.

Well I can tell you in parts of TN and NC, which I live close to the NC border and have traveled through the back country of that state, that there are homes where one entire outside wall of the house is covered entirely by one giant Confederate flag, same on flag pole, and Confederate flag on front license of the truck, along with Confederate flag decals on the cab windows. I don't know how it is in TX, but the resentment is still here. One of the most resenting cities I've been in was Savanah, GA.

So I think the South is still bitter.

Joe

[mpmarty]

44 man your view of Obama is your prejudice against him. With todays population density distribution no President wins without a majority of electors to the Electorial College not just a faction of population centers as you suggest. People on the dole as you suggest and high crime areas vote the least. Seems even Ohio has it's share of serial killers and political degenerates too.

If only the above were true. Unfortunately it is hogwash! The large cities dictate the states' electoral votes and that is all there is to it.

I live in Oregon. Most of the state is rural and the folks who live in the rural areas voted overwhelmingly for ABO (Anyone But Obama) and constantly vote for conservative Republicans and or Independants.

In the entire state if 100% of the population other than two cities voted for a conservative the two cities, Portland and Eugene would carry the state and determine the outcome of the election and the 100% of other citizens votes would be meaningless.

The scum sucking welfare recipients of the large cities run this country.

Rant off, sorry.

[Char-Gar]

Joe.. Bitter is a destructive emotion and will accomplish nothing good. We remember not to be bitter, but to learn and move forward in a positive way. I understand the source of the bitterness, but do not share it.

[No_1]

Gentlemen,

I live in the south, was born and raised here. The display of the Confederate flag is not a show of bitterness but instead a show of heritage. Some call us "rednecks" some call us "Southerners". In general we are always polite and our laid back attitude makes visits to our little neck of the woods pleasant. We can get a little rambunctious if outsiders get a little "excited" but for the most part things stay pretty low key.

I am enjoying this brief foray into history!

Robert

[stephen perry]

Chargar
Arizona in 1912 was the 48th state we now have 50. I'll let you figure out who the last two States are.

I said my Civil War library is larger than most. You said your wife is a teacher you and she are probably not part of the most. But I have hundreds upon hundreds of History books it was one of my majors the other being Civil Engineering. Home libraries mean nothing I live 5 miles from Claremont Colleges one of the largest College libraries in the Country. Browsing is free a library card is extra.

What happened to Cast bullets I didn't come to this site to fight Wars all over again. Being born in Virginia doesn't give anybody prior rights as dead relatives are just that DEAD.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[HollandNut]

My ancestors came here prior to the Revolution , and have shed blood in every war and/or conflict since then ...

And as has been said , theer are parts of the South where we still remember to keep the memory alive ..

Unfortunately when I display a Confederate Flag , some prefer to call it a sign of hatred .. Is not hatred , is Heritage ..

Why is it , if I display my sign of heritage is is called a symbol of hatred , but another group can show a symbol of their heritage without repercussion , or if I say something to them , I am automatically labeled a racist ??

The electoral college is skewed in that , here as an example , I believe we have 7 electoral votes , if the popular vote says that candidate A gets 51% of the votes , then they win my state and get all 7 electoral votes ..

Is that the will of the people ??

Not hardly , if it is , then it's majority rules and to H%%% with the rest ..

Oh wait , I think thats where we are now ...

[Bret4207]

There's a lot of truth here. The Rebel Flag is considered "hate" speech by some, and now the Gadsen Flag (Don't tread on me) is coming to mean the same thing to the left. In fact anyone who speaks of the Founders, the Federalist Papers, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights these days is ranked with Klan members and New Nazis. While I don't mean to take this over into politics, it's clear we live in strange times.

I have a feeling this Northerner whose family fought for the Union shares a lot of concerns with many modern southerners.

[HollandNut]

Yeah Bret you are right ..

[Char-Gar]

Bret.... Respect and admiration for the founding principals of this country is not a North vs. South issue. The desire to persue the vision of our Founders is also not a North vs. South issue. There are lots of good patriotic men and women in every part of this great Republic.

American patriots wherever they live, have had to battle politicans, opportunists and folks with screw ball adgendas since the birth of this nation. The ememies of this great country are within more than they are without. They are the folks who try and undermine the American Experiment and hijack the energy and resources of the country for their own contrary plans.

Northerners, Southerners, Easterners and Westerners need to make common cause in defense of liberty, freedom and the American dream.

The South has always been a more rural society, althought that is changing. We have lived closer to the soil than the historic north. For that reason we tend to resist change longer than folks who lived piled up upon one another. We tend to be independ folks who resist group think and joining the herd. That doesn't mean we are smarter, it just means our heads are harder and more resistant to flights of fancy and wierd notions. Texans are the worst of the lot!

[44man]

Bret.... Respect and admiration for the founding principals of this country is not a North vs. South issue. The desire to persue the vision of our Founders is also not a North vs. South issue. There are lots of good patriotic men and women in every part of this great Republic.

American patriots wherever they live, have had to battle politicans, opportunists and folks with screw ball adgendas since the birth of this nation. The ememies of this great country are within more than they are without. They are the folks who try and undermine the American Experiment and hijack the energy and resources of the country for their own contrary plans.

Northerners, Southerners, Easterners and Westerners need to make common cause in defense of liberty, freedom and the American dream.

The South has always been a more rural society, althought that is changing. We have lived closer to the soil than the historic north. For that reason we tend to resist change longer than folks who lived piled up upon one another. We tend to be independ folks who resist group think and joining the herd. That doesn't mean we are smarter, it just means our heads are harder and more resistant to flights of fancy and wierd notions. Texans are the worst of the lot!
Amen, True patriots from all over should stand up for the rights under the constitution.
Listen to CNBC and see the danger we are in from the left.
Fly the confederate flag and be proud. It has nothing to do with hatred. It is a tribute to the poor souls that died for a cause and I believe they would have still gone by the constitution as written if the south would have won the war.
When they come to my door to take my guns, I will be shooting! Liberty or death!

[Recluse]

I used to compete in IDPA, mostly fine, middle-class working, family-type folks. A few bad apples, but what ran me off was the "administration", it became all about the newest version of the rules, not about common sense.

I got 100% disgusted with competition (especially IPSC) when I saw the rules being changed to favor those who "were on top" in order to keep them on top.

In IPSC, I enjoyed beating the high-dollar comped up wheel guns with my stock S&W 686--that only had one helluva trigger job, and Pach grips as its only modifications. I enjoyed taking that same wheelgun and competing all the way up into the B-class (autoloader raceguns) and beating them. Never could quite take a top three finish in the A-class or Open-class with my wheelgun, though. Too many courses of fire set up for seven/eight rounds before reloading. . .

Reason I enjoyed beating the comp guns so much was that there was a prevailing attitude that a competitor's worth and value to the club was directly related to the value of his gun (and supporting equipment)--rather than the value of his ability or character. I saw it clubs everywhere.



Everywhere I go for fun and competition there are elitist, holier-than-thou snobs that just love to show how pompous they are.

Gear

And hence my nickname and lifestyle, "Recluse" as I prefer to be alone as to hang around or be around the likes of the snobs or elitists. The older I get, the less I like being around most people.

:coffee:

[Recluse]

This thread was interesting until the last page.

What about slaves? Want them too? Get a grip on yourself, the war is over and nobody won.

Put the rebel flag up your [edit] for all I care, it ain't gonna make no boolits.

Pretty good example, and typical, of why I despise most Yankees.

Also a good example of why most Yankee states have the most draconian anti-gun laws and highest taxes anywhere in the nation.

I wish to hell Texas would secede and that we'd take some southern and western states with us.

:coffee:

[StarMetal]

Pretty good example, and typical, of why I despise most Yankees.

Also a good example of why most Yankee states have the most draconian anti-gun laws and highest taxes anywhere in the nation.

I wish to hell Texas would secede and that we'd take some southern and western states with us.

:coffee:

Your statement here pretty much sums up why the country won't heal from the Civil War.

About taxes and gun laws...what do you say about California? It's definitely not a Yankee state. Here in TN our sales tax is dang near 10 cents on the dollar.

Joe

[1874Sharps]

Gentlemen,

After reading this thread from the beginning I feel the need to voice my opinion. I appreciate the views expressed here and have benefited from the historical knowledge that many of you have. Just as there was a great civil polarization and feeling of disenfranchisement during the times leading to the US Civil War, so now is there also. There are those in this country that revere the principles embodied in the Constitution (many of us on this forum have sworn an oath to defend it, as I have) and there are those in this country who see the Constitution as an obsticle in achieving their desired ends. I will stand with Jefferson, Burke, Washington, etc. and follow the literal interpretation of our founding era documents.

Any government, if it is to be just and united, must draw its power from the consensus of the governed. That does not mean that everyone in it will agree with its current direction. Let me say this: I will support any politian that supports the Constitution as a constructionist. The sad fact is that there are darn few of them around! What happens, then, if the majority of people (or states) want to trample the Constitution (and not change it by the prescribed arduous method of ammendment)? Then I say they have broken the social contract making it null and void!!! I suppose you would say then I am in favor of succession in such circumstances, then. I am proud of my fellow Texans because a good many of them feel the same way and will stand for liberty! I think Texas and the Southerners are leading the way for the most part. I am not intending that statement to disparage any of you freedom-loving Northerners, but rather saying that it just seems like most of the strict constructionist Constitutional support is coming from the South.

If you were to look at the red and blue counties across the nation for the last three or so elections, you will see how red the map is. The major cities have become the major population centers and are typically blue and in many cases control the electoral college votes in their states. We see many in this country who vote in politians who will "eat out the substance" of those who work hard and produce wealth so that it may be given to those who do not earn it. This is the moral equivalent of robbery. When a political system goes down this path it becomes a vicious cycle that cannot be sustained. It will fail! I see this happening in our country right now. As Rush has said, "Liberalism is the greatest threat to liberty and America."

[44man]

Left wing liberals and politicians, not the people in general no matter where they are from.
Remember that most large businesses like the auto companies pulled many southerners up to the north to work. Now they and most of the people in large cities are out of work and want everything free from the government and taxpayers.
Don't blame Yankees, they made the factories and lively hood for many southerners.
Seems as if most refineries and oil companies are in the south. Raise energy and gas prices, what do you have? Everyone is to blame for something. Do not sugar coat southerners either.
The north does not have a lock on murder, thieves or greed. What they have are larger cities where the rotten people reside. Many are southerners, illegals, off spring of slaves, etc. A cross section of all peoples that think the government will pay for everything. If not, they will steal what they want.
Vote for "change" and the new God of the world so you never have to work again.
Don't blame me because I am from the north!
But then, the New England states----stupid, inbred Kennedy lovers. I have no explanation! But they burned witches at the stake too.
You must think for yourselves and fight against those that only believe what they hear and want to believe.

[1874Sharps]

44Man,

You are certainly correct, and I meant no disrespect toward you or any of my Northern friends.

[mpmarty]

One final comment from a misplaced Kentuckian. I believe strongly that we have passed the "tip-over" point and that the masses in the major metro areas will control the electoral college and have a disproportionate influence on both houses of congress. I feel we are bound for a train wreck of gigantic proportions and actually welcome it as it seems the only road to bring back our original conservative, responsible country. Unfortunately I fear many in the major cities will lose everything and some even their lives during the upheaval. I don't speak in any biblical sense but just don't believe the government can continue down this road and keep feeding the non producers at the expense of those who produce. Sooner rather than later the working stiffs paying the taxes will just give up in disgust and that could trigger a whole new set of circumstances when the government finally realizes it's broke, broken and can't be fixed any longer with band aids.

[Fixxah]

Pretty good example, and typical, of why I despise most Yankees.

Also a good example of why most Yankee states have the most draconian anti-gun laws and highest taxes anywhere in the nation.

I wish to hell Texas would secede and that we'd take some southern and western states with us.

:coffee:
Perhaps you are right in your own mind. Many in my family have been military, all branches except Marines. They wouldn't take my sorry behind even though I tried for years to get in.

I have no love for my home state due to the plague that was anything with the name Kennedy. Money destroyed this state and is going to do the same to our country. Whether you are from the south or the north or are yellow or red or black, I don't care. We all should stand for one goal. There are too many sub-groups when you talk shooting sports and it why the antis thrive.

If you want to talk lineage, my ancestors were indians. This goes back to before Columbus invaded this land.

My relatives live in Florida and Texas and Minnesota and Phoenix. I am an AMERICAN!!!!! If we can't get beyond that then I can say I tried and failed.

I would trust somebody from the backwoods of Louisiana over most from Mass. in a heartbeat. Time to grow up a little I think. I put my pants on one leg at a time too and drive a pickup (well, a Dodge Ram) if you want to call it that.

The nasty gun laws are due to the fact that Joe Blow can go to some store and buy as many as possible and bring them up to the cities and sell them for big profit. Mass. has some of the worst gun laws next to Kalifornia but some of us are trying to change them. It is not easy by any stretch, pols are entrenched in our wallets and come out as easy as a tapeworm.

[1874Sharps]

Fixxah,

You are right about the need for those of us who believe in the liberties enshrined in our Constitution to stick together. It matters not where you live or what your ethnic background is. What matters is freedom.

[Fixxah]

Some common sense. Thanks.

BTW, nice buffalo.

[Recluse]

We all should stand for one goal. There are too many sub-groups when you talk shooting sports and it why the antis thrive.

I hear ya, partner. I hear you.

That's why I wish to hell we could secede, taking the majority of Southern states and some midwestern and most western states with us. We'd deport the liberals, socialists, communists and basically anyone that has such a brief with the Constitution and concept of rugged individuality and self determination, and deport their no-good butts right up to Kennedy, Kerry, Frank, Schumer, Rangel, Jeffers & Co's back yard.

Let THEM deal with their own products of failed views, policies and laws.

Conversely, I'd welcome with OPEN ARMS any and all who revere the Constitution and individuality and live and let live attitudes.

When it comes to guns, I believe the Second Amendment provides for optional ownership of firearms--not mandatory. Perversely, a liberal feels that since HE is afrard of guns, NOBODY should be allowed to own one.

That is where I got real sideways with Kumbo. REAL SIDEWAYS! He didn't like "black guns" and it wasn't enough that HE didn't like them--he publicly pontificated that NOBODY should have them when it came to hunting/varmint hunting.

Ted Nugent, blessedly, educated Mr. Zumbo, and today, Mr. Zumbo is a strong advocate for ALL guns.

It just goes to show that the Second Amendment, in its entirety, is more vital to our collective rights and freedoms than trying to fragment it into sub-groups such as hunters, target shooters, military/LE, competition, etc.

We're already hopelessly fragmented as a nation when it comes to the Constitution. That is why I'd love to kick all the bed-wetting liberals up to the liberal havens in the northeast and let real Americans have the rest of the country.

:coffee:


:coffee:

[armyrat1970]

Recluse, if you'll do secede I for one hope Louisiana will follow right along with you.

[HollandNut]

ahh jus draw a line some where , preferably within a few miles of the CB or MB , send all them idjits across them lines and let em do whatever they want , as long as they dont cross the line back over here ..

[stephen perry]

Actually California sends more men and women to all Wars since WW 1 but we don't make a big deal of it. Most of you are living off the glories of other people your dead ancestors. What about what you have done since them. To conclude this long winded atta boy session what about why we are here, to share Cast Bullet info.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[44man]

I have one question that I would somehow like answered by all of our LEO's and military, from the grunt to the Generals.
They are sworn to protect and uphold the Constitution with their lives.
If a socialist government sends them against the people to confiscate all guns, arrest those that do not sign up for Obamacare, or to pay their whole paychecks away to support those that don't work.
What will they do? Will they resist the Government or will they put on Nazi jack boots?
Can we depend on the LEO's and our brave soldiers to protect America and join us to maintain freedom or will we be at their mercy?
Is the commander in chief the law of the land? Does he supersede the Constitution?
What if Obama signs away our freedom to a one world government?

[StarMetal]

Recluse,

United we stand, Divided we fall. Why don't Texans get their heads out of the sand and try to help change the country instead of turn coat and secede? This country has no intentions of letting any state secede. If y'all try it will bury all y'all. Don't forget this is modern times and governments are giants today. Our government wasn't so big when the Civil War started.

Joe

[runfiverun]

joe thats as the constitution intended it to be.
the gov needs to be placed back where it belongs.

[HollandNut]

Actually California sends more men and women to all Wars since WW 1 but we don't make a big deal of it.

Only because theres more peeps living there

Most of you are living off the glories of other people your dead ancestors.

So we cant express pride in our heritage ( northern or southern ) or this country ??

What about what you have done since them.

22 years in the Navy .. Lifer in the NRA since 1981 , member since 1970 ..

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

What have you done ??

[Recluse]

Recluse,

United we stand, Divided we fall. Why don't Texans get their heads out of the sand and try to help change the country instead of turn coat and secede? This country has no intentions of letting any state secede. If y'all try it will bury all y'all. Don't forget this is modern times and governments are giants today. Our government wasn't so big when the Civil War started.

Joe

What the hell do you think we've been trying to do???

We execute our particularly nasty criminals, but the damned Yankee lawyers and bleedin' hearts send their goons down here to try and stop it.

We have our own border patrol (Minutemen), and the damned bleeding heart Yankee liberals send their lawyers and politicos down here to try and stop it.

We produce oil and gasoline right here in Texas and Louisiana, and then the damned Yankee politicians make sure WE pay additional taxes for providing the rest of you with refined gasoline.

We send some of the staunchest conservatives to the Senate and Congress. Massachusetts, California and New York send the staunchest liberals. Only way either happens is by a majority vote of the residents of those states.

I could go on and on.

This country has no intentions of letting any state secede. If y'all try it will bury all y'all.

Yeah? You think Texas, the Southern states and western states decide to leave (or better yet, kick the northeastern states out), and you and a bunch of damned liberal Yankee pacifists are gonna "bury us all?"

Come get some.

:coffee:

[HollandNut]

44man , my "understanding" is that federal troops are not to be used against the American Public ...

However ...

[HollandNut]

oathkeepers.org

There are many of use who took this oath , and as far as I know when I retired , and others were discharged , our oath was not rescinded ..

Well mine wasnt ...

[HollandNut]

One of the Founders ( forget which right off ) wrote that there should be a revolution every so often to weed the corruption out of the government ..

[Recluse]

What will they do? Will they resist the Government or will they put on Nazi jack boots?
Can we depend on the LEO's and our brave soldiers to protect America and join us to maintain freedom or will we be at their mercy?

Our soldiers, yes. Our law enforcement, no. I have no more faith left in me in our institution of law enforcement so far as it pertains to defending the Constitution and the rights, liberties and freedoms of the citizens of this country.

I saw its denigration pick up steam in the mid-to late 80's, and it hasn't slown down yet.

We now are in the position of having handfuls of GOOD cops rather than vice versa. The people they are attracting and recruiting today are drawn by TV shows like Cops and recruiting posters/videos showing ninja stormtroopes doing SWAT stuff and door-kicking and shooting--not keeping the peace or patrolling neighborhoods.

I have zero faith in LE anymore. And I've been there, done that and am speaking from firsthand experience.


Is the commander in chief the law of the land? Does he supersede the Constitution?
What if Obama signs away our freedom to a one world government?

The Constitution is the law of the land. Presidents swear an oath to defend it.

:coffee:

[StarMetal]

What the hell do you think we've been trying to do???

We execute our particularly nasty criminals, but the damned Yankee lawyers and bleedin' hearts send their goons down here to try and stop it.

We have our own border patrol (Minutemen), and the damned bleeding heart Yankee liberals send their lawyers and politicos down here to try and stop it.

We produce oil and gasoline right here in Texas and Louisiana, and then the damned Yankee politicians make sure WE pay additional taxes for providing the rest of you with refined gasoline.

We send some of the staunchest conservatives to the Senate and Congress. Massachusetts, California and New York send the staunchest liberals. Only way either happens is by a majority vote of the residents of those states.

I could go on and on.

This country has no intentions of letting any state secede. If y'all try it will bury all y'all.

Yeah? You think Texas, the Southern states and western states decide to leave (or better yet, kick the northeastern states out), and you and a bunch of damned liberal Yankee pacifists are gonna "bury us all?"

Come get some.

:coffee:

My my. For your information I'm no liberal Yankee.

Joe [smilie=s:

[Beekeeper]

I don't know why you are disappointed with gun rag writers!
If you consider the source you will see that they all are writing exactly what the manufacturers want them to.
Try getting one of them to answer an e-mail and tell you the real truth about something.
Tried several times and never got an answer but writer says he answers all questions.
Kind of strange.


Jim

[Char-Gar]

Gentleman.. This thread has started to deteriorate into personal invictive and challenges. Time to get back on topic or go on to something that has value. Pretty please

[StarMetal]

Gentleman.. This thread has started to deteriorate into personal invictive and challenges. Time to get back on topic or go on to something that has value. Pretty please

I agree with Charles. I'm finished with this thread. FYI I don't dislike anyone in this thread nor hold any kind of ill feelings or grudges toward them. My posts were merely to make one think more.

Joe

[44man]

I see us as on the same page, all Americans, one and all.

[Fixxah]

While some of us come from a different place, we are of the same mind. It is not a north versus south situation in my mind. This country cannot fragment any more than it is already and survive. The moonbats elected a puppet who isn't even a citizen of this great land and it is being eaten away from within by greedy politicians of all stripes, granted they are mostly from northern states. I will say I am sorry for having jumped off topic and used bad judgement in my choice of words. Back to casting.....

[madcaster]

Isn't it peculiar how a discussion of writers has turned into a geographical thing?:(

[Bret4207]

Actually California sends more men and women to all Wars since WW 1 but we don't make a big deal of it. Most of you are living off the glories of other people your dead ancestors. What about what you have done since them. To conclude this long winded atta boy session what about why we are here, to share Cast Bullet info.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

Thanks for the info on how we should all ( who have been here since the place started) think. Good thing you got here to straighten us out.

[Beekeeper]

+1 Brett,
And I even live in Ca

[armyrat1970]

Actually California sends more men and women to all Wars since WW 1 but we don't make a big deal of it. Most of you are living off the glories of other people your dead ancestors. What about what you have done since them. To conclude this long winded atta boy session what about why we are here, to share Cast Bullet info.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

Okay, I agree the thread has gotten a little out of hand. But to tell you what I have done since the glories of my long dead ancestors: I enlisted in the army in '69 at the age of 17. Went through basic in Ft. Polk Tiger Land and AIT in Ft. Polk. Went to Ft. Sill Artillery School for Track Mechanic AIT and had orders for Nam. Orders were changed and shipped to Ft. Hood, Texas. Served with the 1st Armored Division for 8 months. 1049'ed (requested transfer) for the Nam and deployed in March of 1970 at the age of 18. Made 19 in Nam in May of 1970 while serving with the 18th Engineer Brigade. And I was a hippie at the time. But I was a hippie that had a love of God and Country and was not a draft card burner or a dodger of the draft. I don't ride the coat tails of anyone and come from a family that has military service with my cousins and uncles serving also. Army, Air Force and Marines. Don't know where you come from in California but it seems you must have been bred off the grounds of Berkley University, and I have to ask what have you done? And when or where have you served? And I hope the moderators leave this post up until we have a response. I am sure some would like to hear a response. Of course it may not be forthcoming.

[462]

armyrat1970,

Not all Californians are liberal. No one can choose the place of their birth, and many of us live in places we'd rather not. My body may be stuck in California, but my soul resides elsewhere.

I enlisted in the Air Force just shy of my 19th birthday and volunteered to go to Viet Nam, not long after completing weapons mechanic tech school. I spent the early morning hours of my 21st birthday hunkered down during a VC rocket and mortar attack -- just one of 24 that occurred during my year in-country.

I am neither North nor South, but, had I been born in the correct century, would have sided and/or fought with the Confederates, as I believe in states' rights, and have no problem with Texas wanting to sedede.

Yes, this thread took a turn, but that is one of the positives of this site.

[Mike Venturino]

I liked it when this thread took its turn. It got us poor, maligned, hard-working, gun'riters out from under the magnifying glass!

MLV

[462]

Mike,

Poor...join the club.

Maligned...only when we disagree with you.

Hard-working...aren't we all?

Under the magnifying glass...every gunowner is under Obama's.

[armyrat1970]

armyrat1970,

Not all Californians are liberal. No one can choose the place of their birth, and many of us live in places we'd rather not. My body may be stuck in California, but my soul resides elsewhere.

I enlisted in the Air Force just shy of my 19th birthday and volunteered to go to Viet Nam, not long after completing weapons mechanic tech school. I spent the early morning hours of my 21st birthday hunkered down during a VC rocket and mortar attack -- just one of 24 that occurred during my year in-country.

I am neither North nor South, but, had I been born in the correct century, would have sided and/or fought with the Confederates, as I believe in states' rights, and have no problem with Texas wanting to sedede.

Yes, this thread took a turn, but that is one of the positives of this site.

No problems with Californians at all. After you serve with others from many different states and become a brotherhood it makes no difference of state lines, race or creed. His post was just a little to the extreme and rubbed me wrong.:redneck:

[462]

armyrat1970,

I understand and agree.

[44man]

Liberal, left wing socialists are in every state. It is only that Kalifornia seems so have have as many or more then the north east states.
The people that have worked hard and paid all of their lives and only want what is due them also live in every state. The balance is tipping towards the useless, non working masses that want everything free from the rest of us.
I don't think a single one of them should get a dime until they work for it. No free health care either, work for it. Their easy way is to steal and kill for what they need.
Mexicans come across and get everything free. Work harder then anyone I ever seen but get paid under the table, pay no taxes and send money home. They would make great American citizens but it is easier to take our money and jobs with the liberal's consent.
What do we do----Vote the creeps out of office! Term limits for Congress.

[armyrat1970]

I have a few other ideas about that. We don't need so many in congress. Cut back on them and since we have so many millions of us out of work, cut back on their pay. They love to waste our money. Let all of them take a cut in pay as they still have their jobs. The deficit is approching 12.1 trillion. The limit is???? supposed to be 12 trillion. Now they are trying to pass a bill that would increase the deficit limit to 14 trillion. More waste of our money and they get paid the same everyday. I don't find any in our government that really excites me.

[Edubya]

Actually California sends more men and women to all Wars since WW 1 but we don't make a big deal of it. Most of you are living off the glories of other people your dead ancestors. What about what you have done since them. To conclude this long winded atta boy session what about why we are here, to share Cast Bullet info.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep
When making absolute statements,i.e., "California sends more men and women to all Wars since WW 1", it would benefit you and all readers to support it with a study.


Region.Representation by census region and division for recent active-duty military enlistees is found in Map 1. Similar to previous Heritage Foundation reports on the regional representation of troops, we find that the strong Southern military tradi*tion continues with the 2006 and 2007 enlisted recruits. The South accounts for more than 40 percent of new enlistees—a proportional over*representation.
http://tinyurl.com/milregionrep
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda08-05.cfm

We may all be proud patriots, but some have different ways of showing that patriotism. Being proud of the group that we align with is not "living off the glories of other people your dead ancestors." I am one of six males in my family, we all served. I was the only one that made it a career.
EW

[armexman]

Whoa their Boolit buddies please refrain from "General Mexican Statements"
I am getting to the point were my blood boils at these posters whom claim that all Mexicans come across as illegal alien, undocumented and criminal.
My Father brought us to this country, with papers, in 1968.
I for one and 99.9% of my Mexican family are all American citizens, either born here or naturalized. Very proud and unfortunately of all political stripes.
We have over fifteen veterans, all joined from California. One person is in Iraq, combat Medic, another CPO on those floating beds, and my niece in Korea.
Of over 300 extended family only one has gone to jail.
No welfare babies here. I have only received $26.00 in food stamps (when I moved to reestablish MY family in Beautiful Colorado).
ARE NOT IN THE DRUG BUSINESS.
Some don't know a bullet from a BHN 18 Boolit. many hunt, all of them own guns.

As hard as it may seem DO NOT and HAVE NOT received anything for free from anybody, even my really rich aunt. So are not going to the emergency room for free.

Many, Many other positive things about "these" MEXICANS I know, must calm down as I am going to punch in at the time clock and go give my all to CU- Boulder.

If a may return to your good graces; have been a caster of the Silver steam for over twenty years and still come back here to learn and come close to having heart attacks form some of the comments and to have my heart go out to those whom loose family members,,,, because after all being here with you people is sometimes like being in my family!!!! you pieces of WORK.

I am very much an American so please don't disparage some of my comments please take them in the context of this thread. GRACIAS

[44man]

What a revelation about the northeast! I think the draft should come back but just for that part of the country. :drinks:
I like a draft for only democrats too! :Fire:

[StarMetal]

What a revelation about the northeast! I think the draft should come back but just for that part of the country. :drinks:
I like a draft for only democrats too! :Fire:

Now that's hilarious....and I agree.

Joe

[waksupi]

To add to that, I bet a lot of people don't realize that many of the Hispanic families in the southwest have been living there for a couple hundred years before anyone else but the Indians were there.


Whoa their Boolit buddies please refrain from "General Mexican Statements"
I am getting to the point were my blood boils at these posters whom claim that all Mexicans come across as illegal alien, undocumented and criminal.
My Father brought us to this country, with papers, in 1968.
I for one and 99.9% of my Mexican family are all American citizens, either born here or naturalized. Very proud and unfortunately of all political stripes.
We have over fifteen veterans, all joined from California. One person is in Iraq, combat Medic, another CPO on those floating beds, and my niece in Korea.
Of over 300 extended family only one has gone to jail.
No welfare babies here. I have only received $26.00 in food stamps (when I moved to reestablish MY family in Beautiful Colorado).
ARE NOT IN THE DRUG BUSINESS.
Some don't know a bullet from a BHN 18 Boolit. many hunt, all of them own guns.

As hard as it may seem DO NOT and HAVE NOT received anything for free from anybody, even my really rich aunt. So are not going to the emergency room for free.

Many, Many other positive things about "these" MEXICANS I know, must calm down as I am going to punch in at the time clock and go give my all to CU- Boulder.

If a may return to your good graces; have been a caster of the Silver steam for over twenty years and still come back here to learn and come close to having heart attacks form some of the comments and to have my heart go out to those whom loose family members,,,, because after all being here with you people is sometimes like being in my family!!!! you pieces of WORK.

I am very much an American so please don't disparage some of my comments please take them in the context of this thread. GRACIAS

[StarMetal]

I have no problem what so ever with Hispanics coming to our country legally. I also don't blame the ones trying to get in illegal. I can imagine how bad their life and government is in Mexico.

Joe

[vacek]

OK, now I am really disappointed.

I started this thread in regards to what I considered a simple matter of politeness and civility and unfortunately it has turned into a platform for everyone to air their issues even when they focus on generalities such as North/South ... White / Hispanic.

Geez. If you are intelligent and diligent enough to cast bullets (not easy), then you should have the manners not to use the forum for social issues.

As earlier, I apologize for even starting up this thread.

[Tazman1602]

I'd like to know why Rick Jamison messed up his gun writing career so bad. I know the details, I mean why, how did he get that way and come to do what he did? Mike you know?

Joe

Joe -

Rick Jamison, Mike Venturino, Ross Seyfreid and others have always been my favorite gun writers. I kinda like Venturino because he's shaped like me <grin>.

Always wondered what happened to Jamison, seemed like he just dropped off the face of the earth -- and I was outta touch with gun mags for a couple of years. Never thought much about it until I read your comment. I found this whilest doing a search, thought you might like to take a look. IF it's true it's UFB <un*******believable> I know Jamison was instrumental in a lot of the Shooting Times cartridges most of which are now dead of course but it's an interesting read nontheless if there's any truth to it.

Art
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.guns/2007-12/msg00230.html

[StarMetal]

Joe -

Rick Jamison, Mike Venturino, Ross Seyfreid and others have always been my favorite gun writers. I kinda like Venturino because he's shaped like me <grin>.

Always wondered what happened to Jamison, seemed like he just dropped off the face of the earth -- and I was outta touch with gun mags for a couple of years. Never thought much about it until I read your comment. I found this whilest doing a search, thought you might like to take a look. IF it's true it's UFB <un*******believable> I know Jamison was instrumental in a lot of the Shooting Times cartridges most of which are now dead of course but it's an interesting read nontheless if there's any truth to it.

Art
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.guns/2007-12/msg00230.html

Yup, that's the way I heard it. I think the gun magazine industry has shunned Rick now.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Vacek... I see you are new to this forum. Having a thread drift or digress from the original intent is very very common. I have had that happen to many of the threads I started, so it is to be expected.

I don't have a problem with thread drift as long as folks are sharing opinions and perspective respectfully and in good humor. But when folks start to square off and it become confrontation or conflict, then I do have a problem.

Wecome to the board and don't be disappointed, it is just the way of it around here.

[Mike Venturino]

Rick didn't mess up his career too bad. He's spending winters in Argentina now. He was in the right in that deal in my opinion. He's a good man and I've known him since 1974.

MLV

[Tazman1602]

Rick didn't mess up his career too bad. He's spending winters in Argentina now. He was in the right in that deal in my opinion. He's a good man and I've known him since 1974.

MLV

Mike -

So glad to hear that one. I've found and read the court documents that are available and he was totally in the right. I hate corporate lawyers. I like your articles and your writing style so please do not respond to this and if you talk to Rick tell him we all miss his columns.........
:mrgreen:

Art

[Bret4207]

OK, now I am really disappointed.

I started this thread in regards to what I considered a simple matter of politeness and civility and unfortunately it has turned into a platform for everyone to air their issues even when they focus on generalities such as North/South ... White / Hispanic.

Geez. If you are intelligent and diligent enough to cast bullets (not easy), then you should have the manners not to use the forum for social issues.

As earlier, I apologize for even starting up this thread.

Don't get upset. We have a rather liberal rule as far as thread drift goes here. That's what keeps us thinking.

And don;t accuse us of being intelligent. I don't know exactly what it means but my folks wuz married.:kidding:

[Bret4207]

Whoa their Boolit buddies please refrain from "General Mexican Statements"
I am getting to the point were my blood boils at these posters whom claim that all Mexicans come across as illegal alien, undocumented and criminal.
My Father brought us to this country, with papers, in 1968.
I for one and 99.9% of my Mexican family are all American citizens, either born here or naturalized. Very proud and unfortunately of all political stripes.
We have over fifteen veterans, all joined from California. One person is in Iraq, combat Medic, another CPO on those floating beds, and my niece in Korea.
Of over 300 extended family only one has gone to jail.
No welfare babies here. I have only received $26.00 in food stamps (when I moved to reestablish MY family in Beautiful Colorado).
ARE NOT IN THE DRUG BUSINESS.
Some don't know a bullet from a BHN 18 Boolit. many hunt, all of them own guns.

As hard as it may seem DO NOT and HAVE NOT received anything for free from anybody, even my really rich aunt. So are not going to the emergency room for free.

Many, Many other positive things about "these" MEXICANS I know, must calm down as I am going to punch in at the time clock and go give my all to CU- Boulder.

If a may return to your good graces; have been a caster of the Silver steam for over twenty years and still come back here to learn and come close to having heart attacks form some of the comments and to have my heart go out to those whom loose family members,,,, because after all being here with you people is sometimes like being in my family!!!! you pieces of WORK.

I am very much an American so please don't disparage some of my comments please take them in the context of this thread. GRACIAS

Your family is a prime example of the way things should be done. Good for you! I imagine hearing your countrymen grouped together like that is just as maddening as when I hear people make general statements about "New Yorkers", not realizing theirs more to the story than NYC. Gets a bit hard to take at times.

Glad you're here, glad you spoke up. You serve as an example of what could be if things were changed a bit.

[44man]

I think that is what I said. I have never seen a harder working people then Mexicans. I have worked around them for years.
But being a citizen puts them in the same boat as all American citizens.
It is only those that sneak in that is the problem and it does not matter what country they are from.
I blame the government for making it so hard to do things legally yet make it so easy to sneak in and if Mexicans can come across and spread all over the country, who else is doing it? Obama can't keep track of a dollar, how can he keep track of terrorists?
There is a process to enter the USA and I welcome all that do it right.
I admit that I can't really blame a lot of them for all the hoops they have to jump through but that can be fixed.
Even a good law abiding Mexican American has to admit that criminals, gangs and drug dealers are also getting in.
Our country does not have a lock on bad people.
I still remember when we had to move to WV because of my job. I worked at Dulles. One of my co-workers got lost in DC while showing his family around and wound up in a black neighborhood. He was stopped by the police and was asked what he was doing there. The police told him to turn around and get out as fast as he could and do NOT stop for red lights or stop signs. DC is the seat of our government and you are not safe from American citizens living there.
I don't think anyone here has anything bad to say about Mexicans, blacks, red or green people, only those individuals that break the law and exploit our system. I have friends, GREAT friends of every race on earth and they are as sick of what is going on as the rest of us are.
Please do not take things personal!
Sorry I said Mexican American, there is no such thing. There is just AMERICAN, the same as there is no such thing as African American. I am not a German, Dutch, Slovak American either.

[shdwlkr]

Mike
I have the same issue now with arthritis in all my major joints. Some days are better then others.
As to Mr Scvoill his writing style sometimes comes across to me as to much to do and to little time to do in. Nothing more and I do like his ideas on things.
As to black guns I don't like them either but that is because of a period of time 7 years when I spent a lot of time around them. I am slowing looking at one in a caliber that interests me which is the 6.8spc. I like it because it isn't .223 nothing more or less. If you like it in .223 which a close friend of mine does that is fine with me as we all have calibers we like and don't like.
Mr Zumbo just said the wrong thing at the wrong place and it bit him in the wallet.
Some think I am strange when I go shoot some of muzzle loaders or my 32-20 or my 357 mag or that I would like to build a 256 win mag lever action rifle. As I get older the smaller calibers just because they kick less.

[armexman]

shdwwlkr, try the Bator 22 or the LBT 22-55, once you do you will only like the 41 Mag after that;) I suffer from arthritis in my upper spine and have been shooting small boolits in the 223, and am loving it. yesterday I tried 11.8 grains in the Handi-rifle and talk about accurate!

Whoaa what a thread digression. I must stop before I wander, too far;)

[felix]

Well, I am Native American because I was born here. This kind of labeling has nothing to do with genes. Check the gene pool, and I would bet all those with red/brown skin have a lot in common with Mongolians. Ideally, nobody should care except for the MD types and only when tracing vectors for medical purposes. ... felix

[Big Dave]

44 Man,
never shot competition much, was to busy raising a family and summer pasture lot trap shoots with friends and extended family. Even their found some hurt feelings when wifely was picking up misses with her mossburg 410 after more affluent relatives missed with their browningg 12s.
Got into local Blackpowder matches for a while, 2 summers I think. Hard feelings and hard looks when you use a homebuilt CVA kit gun to beat sombody shooting an English Whitworth that cost more than I made in a month.
Guess people arethe same all over.
Dave

[Tazman1602]

44 Man,
never shot competition much, was to busy raising a family and summer pasture lot trap shoots with friends and extended family. Even their found some hurt feelings when wifely was picking up misses with her mossburg 410 after more affluent relatives missed with their browningg 12s.
Got into local Blackpowder matches for a while, 2 summers I think. Hard feelings and hard looks when you use a homebuilt CVA kit gun to beat sombody shooting an English Whitworth that cost more than I made in a month.
Guess people arethe same all over.
Dave

LMAO!
...........but ain't it the truth? I can't shoot with most guy except a select few because they bring out $2K rifles and here I go with a hacksawed off, hand turned barrel crown Swede Mauser (OK so I cheat with the original ammo........) and outshoot them. Only thing worse is when I let wife have the gun and all I can do is LAUGH at their expensive rifles because they have NO idea what to put down the barrel.

I don't care what color the skin is. a butt hole is still a butt hole even if they are lily white and they come in all sizes and colors....

.......and yes, I'm probably a Mongolian.............or a Hun.........or.......well, you get my drift!

Art

PS -- but boy would I have loved to have been Arthur the Roman in that one movie where Clive Owen gets to bang heck out of Kiera Knightly................

[armyrat1970]

Your family is a prime example of the way things should be done. Good for you! I imagine hearing your countrymen grouped together like that is just as maddening as when I hear people make general statements about "New Yorkers", not realizing theirs more to the story than NYC. Gets a bit hard to take at times.

Glad you're here, glad you spoke up. You serve as an example of what could be if things were changed a bit.

There is a term that applies but I won't post it here. Anyway the term has meaning towards attitude more than color or race and I have met many in my life that fit that term in every color and race. I have served in the military and have resided in many states (and other) from one time or another. Made many friends of many different nationalities, race and creed, and many that have served with honor. Some with a history of family service. White, black, yellow and red. All good people and do not fit in that term. You have the good with the bad in everything. Thanks for speaking your mind and standing up.

[shdwlkr]

armexman
I have calibers up to 45-70 that I like to shoot also. I figure that planning a head is a good thing and in 10-15 years most all of my big calibers might be to large for me but as time goes on I am learning that shooting lead bullets let me load to my need for the bullet and just increases the fun.
I do have a 55 grain 224 caliber bullet that I use in my 222. told you I was an old fart most have to have the latest souped up caliber to feel like a hunter me I will still with the old stuff that was very hot when I was a kid growing up and get just as much done and still have a shoulder to shoot with until I am in my late what ever year that is.