pp another way

[Bullshop]

I had an order for some PP boolits so thought someone might find my method interesting.
These are 650gn 50 cal pure lead
Paper is 100% cotton fiber resume from office max.

They are run through a .512" sizer. You can see the base petals are pressed tightly and injected with lube and the patches are ironed on tightly. Maybe you cant see but there is a very thin film of lube on the patch. I have been doing it this way for 20 years and get excellent accuracy. Have taken moose, caribou, mule deer and grizzly, are ya ready for this carpetdude, all with one shot each.
I have done this with many of my 45 cal grease groove molds sized down to .452" and patched up to .460".
Have also dont it with a variety of other cals like 270/284 25/26 338/348 348/358 and so on.
I offer patching as a service for .05 ea..
BIC/BS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/cf33f16c.jpg

[libbyman]

Out of a Ruger#1, in 45-70 calliber, a 355gr. PURE LEAD plane base bullet,
at 1900 FPS. This load gives about 2.5 in. 5 shot group at 100 yds. 55grs. of
IMR 3031.
Of course this bullet is paper patched.

Who needs those copper based bullets?

Ken

[buck1]

I always wanted to try that, but I never would be able to get the paper the right size/shape in bulk. Any tips?......Thanks Buck

[Dale53]

Paul Mathews' inexpensive little book from Wolfe Publishing, "The Paper Jacket" tells of his experiences with the paper patched bullet.

Bullshop;
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us. I just might have to try paper patched with my recently acquired Ruger #3 in 45/70. I'll be waiting to hear of any tips from you, also.

Dale53

[carpetman]

Bullshop--You took a mule deer,moose,caribou,grizz,all with one shot. Where did you find that assortment bunched up to do that? Maybe a zoo? One shot--now it takes several they just don't build em like they use to. How old are you anyways?

[Bullshop]

Carpetman
Common now it says one shot each dont it. Hey I knew that would get ya, and it wernt no OH!-6 neather! Well friend I'm affraid your gonna figure out a way to hit me with it but guess I'll bite anyways. I just hit 51 two weeks ago, 4/26/55 Please be gentle!

Buck1
First you need to cut a templet. It can be metal or about anything. If ya dont have tools cut it out of thick plastic like a coffie can lid. You can do that with scisers. I have even flattened out a soup can and made them from that. No matter what ever ya got that ya can work.
Take a small peace of paper thats about twice as tall as the bullet you want to patch and with a felt pen put a line down one side. Now start wrapping that arround the bullet. When it has two wraps without overlaping a third mark it at the line. Now you have a gauge for how long your patch has to be. I use a steel straight edg to make parilel lines and a carpenters tool to set the angle for the ends. Now you have a templet.
Next step if your going to make lots of patches is while you are at office max getting your patching paper invest in a paper cutter. This makes cutting patches real fast. I do about 6 sheets at a time, first cutting them into 1" stripps. That 1" will vary with the length of the bullet but most of my 45 and 50 cals work good with 1". The paper cutter makes it real easy cause the whole top of the table on the cutter has measuring lines.
Once you have the stripps you use the templet to measure the length of the patch. Mark a few stripps then take about six at a time with a marked one on top and snip snip snip piles of perfect patches pile up before your eyes.
Thats the Bull Shop method and its no BS!
BIC/BS

[powderburnerr]

If you have a paper cutter allready just put a line on it at 35 degrees and then put another at the length you want ,line up the stack and kachunk a stack of patches... and it really goes fast that way you dont need a template. ...Dean

[carpetman]

Bullshop---You are 100% correct---it does say one shot EACH. 30-06 or nothing else guarantees a one shot kill. You don't know until you pull the trigger. Will say that results I've seen on moose with 30-06 and a jacketed bullet have been much better than the results you have posted. 30-06 is probably still too much recoil for an 11 year old but certainly a heck of a lot less than the one that the scope cut Jr's eye. That moose was like 190 yards or thereabouts if I recall correctly---really out of range for that gun and would require a heck of a hold over,lucky lob shot at best. 30-06 would have been well within range and a dead on hold.
1955 huh. That does solve one mystery. I'd never heard of draft exemption because a person worked in a junk yard. Both the draft and Viet Nam ended as you turned 18 in 1973. So the draft exemption for working in a junk yard would make sense with the caveat that you have to be 17 years old or younger to be eligible.
Now for a Biblical question. Instead of gathering up two of each animal,why didnt Noah just get a pregnant female? That way he could of built the ark 1/2 the size and it would of given him more time to go hunting and casting bullets and maybe he could have posted here. Hunting should have been good as there would be an extra male out there for him to hunt.

[Scrounger]

CarpetMan, a pregnant female would not have guaranteed the continuation of the species, which was his intent. Pregnancy carries no guarantee of a live birth nor of a male of each species. It still takes two. Or so I hear...

[carpetman]

Scrounger---You are correct a pregnant female doesnt guarantee a live birth. But how do you know you did not disturb the males reproduction system when you were chasing him down and loading him on the boat? Mules are hybrid---wonder if they took two of those on board?

[Bullshop]

Carpetman
Why is it you seem to ignor the posts I have made of one shot kills, and there have been many even on this thread. You seem to only dwell on the others that were not. I for some reason get the idea that you are intent on belittling me for some reason I dont realy understand. If you just dont like me come rught out and say so and we dont have to bother each other any more. I realy dont understand your motive. Sometimes I think its just for fun and sometimes I get the idea its from hate, I realy dont know. If you would prefer I wont respond to your posts again. I ment no offence with the OH!- 6 thing, just funnin.
As far as taking game I have a rule I go by. If an animal is hit and still on its feet I continue to shoot until it goes down. I guess you think that a bad pollicy but not me. You can never tell what kind of damage is done until after the fact and you inspect the carcas. Of all the hunting stories you have ever read tell me you have never read one where the animal dropped at the shot and was thought to be dead then after a bit jumped up and escaped, or attacted. I posted one here just for you a month ago about a customer shooting a buffalo with a 375 Styer, guess you missed it.
Let me tell you another one. This was a moose with an 06. He is a church member and friend. He asked what I thought of his moose load using a Nosler 165gn balistic tip. I told him it was a poor choice and would sooner or later fail him. The next moose he shot with it got away. He shot it in the head and it dropped. He and his companion waited as there were other moose in the area. Within a few minutes the moose was trying to get up but kept falling. His partner watching with bino's said no need to shoot again he's dead just nerves. With that the moose got to his feet and took off running and didnt stop for the mile or so that they could see him. So there ya go if they had used my pollicy it wouldnt have gotten away. They may have to take a little ribbing about taking more than one shot but he wouldnt have got away.
I know you think everything I say is just hot air. I know because you are always trying to proove it wrong. If thats what you enjoy have fun. You have an idea in your mind of who I am but you realy dont have a clue. You have no way of knowing the things I have done in my life that have made me who I am. I have killed more big game than many reading this will ever see. From what I have seen I will continue to shoot until I am certain they are down for good.
As for what I said about the junk yard it was true. I did leave out some though. My father signed me up as soon as I was legal age. I was in jail at the time on drug charges. See theres lots to me you dont know. Anyways I was rated undesirable so they didnt want me anyway.
Lets get this thing between us on even ground so we know exactly where we stand with each other, OK?
If you realy feel the need to proove I am less than perfect I will fess up right now. I aint no better than anyone and a lot worse than some. I do however have the promise from God and the blood of Jesus to help me through. Praise God I wouldnt make it otherwise!
BIC/BS

[Scrounger]

CarpetMan, a pregnant female would not have guaranteed the continuation of the species, which was his intent. Pregnancy carries no guarantee of a live birth nor of a male of each species. It still takes two. Or so I hear...

Apparently he took only one---and you're still with us! :drinks: :drinks:

[buck1]

Thanks Bullshop and powderburnerr!! That doesnt sound bad at all!
Another project coming on!!!....Buck

[carpetman]

Bullshop--You bring up several issues--I'll try to answer. One night I made a post that was a little off color--I've seen a lot worse. Someone complained and it got censored. I didnt know who complained,but about where my post would have been was Jr's first post. Yes,you were a prime suspect. Had the complainer contacted me,I'd have eliminated it. Was my hunch correct?
You said I didnt comment about the one shot kills. Well you could drive every mile of Alaskan highways and never speed one time for example,except twice through school zones at 100 MPH and guess what you would hear about? My ire is not with it taking more than one shot. I agree if still on it's feet another shot needed. This should be a finishing shot. But when you shoot them in the rear quarter and who knows where all else,this indicates to me that something is wrong,bullet performance or something--not finishing shots--spray and pray. If I recall correctly the moose Jr first posted about was shot 5 times(rear quarter shot included). The second moose if I recall correctly you were only able to get about 175 yards from it. This was with a rifle with a severe rainbow trajectory and perhaps in the hands of a skilled shooter that was use to the rifle maybe 150 yards??? Not to mention way too much recoil for a youngster Jr's age--this seems correct in that the results were a cut eye and he wouldnt shoot it a second time---dont blame him. If that is correct,then maybe the plan should be if he comes our way we shoot when in range and if he goes away from us--pass on the shot. Obviously Jr wasnt use to the gun. Forgot to cock it and it was even further out of range when the shot was attempted. Moose hit in the foot would seem to confirm this---thats about 4-5 feet low. You told me your then killing this second moose was legal as Jr was injured. Maybe so if the moose was down and on it's last breath--but I suspect had you told the nice game warden about that moose he would have had a differing opinion.
Another story. This was a moose with an 06. He was a church member and friend. I hope if I ever run across a moose armed with an 06 he is friendly. What kind of church do moose attend?
I have never suggested that I thought you were perfect. You have posted that you have been addicted to heroin since a young age and been in jail. Yes,these things will keep you out of the military. But draft exempt because you worked in a junk yard? You were in jail when you turned 18 and the draft and Viet Nam were over--still had to register for the draft,so I dont see how the junk yard job entered in.
Long post---let me know if my hunch was right.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Guys, who cares one way or the other, let talk cast boolits. Live and let live aint that in your book somewhere. My folks always told me if you can't say anything nice, keep your mouth shut.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I had an order for some PP boolits so thought someone might find my method interesting.
These are 650gn 50 cal pure lead
Paper is 100% cotton fiber resume from office max.

They are run through a .512" sizer. You can see the base petals are pressed tightly and injected with lube and the patches are ironed on tightly. Maybe you cant see but there is a very thin film of lube on the patch. I have been doing it this way for 20 years and get excellent accuracy. Have taken moose, caribou, mule deer and grizzly, are ya ready for this carpetdude, all with one shot each.
I have done this with many of my 45 cal grease groove molds sized down to .452" and patched up to .460".
Have also dont it with a variety of other cals like 270/284 25/26 338/348 348/358 and so on.
I offer patching as a service for .05 ea..
BIC/BS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/cf33f16c.jpg

I have always been fascinated with paper patched boolits. Use jacketed bulets, but love to be self sufficient, silly, but it is what I like.

They look they have a crimp like a shotgun on the base and a wad of lube under it. How did you do this?

[9.3X62AL]

Mick, good thoughts on derailed topicality.

Regarding the Ruger #1 and #3 with PP boolits.......my example of this critter has the "Government ballseat", which features ABRUPT rifling origin. Many lever action rifles have a similar throat/leade with what I call "city street curb angle" rifling origins. A few years ago, I tried some PP boolits in my #1 and the experiment was an unmitigated disaster, accuracy-wise. By Round #5-#6, the boolits could be heard whirring downrange--accuracy was about "minute-of-Spruce Goose-hangar"-class......and the bore was well, truly, and comprehensively leaded down to about 37 caliber.

One of the guys that Buckshot and I shoot with whose knowledge and skill I greatly respect surmised that the steep leade angle shredded the paper jackets and set up the scenario I described above. Makes sense to me, too.

A few questions not directly addressed in Matthews' book occur to me.......

#1--Is there some seating regimen that allows good performance in these steep-leade throats with the PP boolits? I used the INFAMOUS Lee 500 grain boolit that falls from the mold at .452" on the drive bands, which seems like a great "core" design for PP boolits. I seated the boolit to just touch the rifling origin, with wrapping direction that "tightened" the patch downbore as per Matthews' recommendation.

#2--Again referring to the Lee 500, should its GC shank get checked and sized in place at .452" prior to wrapping, or (as I did) leave the slug unchecked and just wrap the boolit "nekkid"?

Based on results that onset VERY soon after the shooting started, I did something(s) very wrong. I should add that the nose portion of the boolit is a little undersized, about .447" going through a .449" bore. I expect that to affect accuracy, but would it cause the fast and drastic outcome described above?

Lastly--I have wrapped pure lead #358430's to .367" and fired them in the CZ-550 x 9.3mm, and these shot very well--so I'm not a total lost cause when it comes to PP boolits. I would really like to make the PP's work in the Ruger without resorting to reaming, since the rifle does quite well with conventional cast boolits--and I'd rather not risk degraded performance with the less labor intensive boolits.

All thoughts and comments welcome.

[Bullshop]

Carpetman
We have wasted enough space here on you picking apart everything I say and me trying to defend it so no more. I am shure its too late now as you have already let your anger grow and fester and the trueth will not change anything, but for the record I have never and will never go to an administrater for anything. If I have a problem with you I will go to you and I expect the same from everyone. As I have said you dont realy know me if you did you would know I dont sneak arround and back shoot anyone from the bushes. Go ahead and make me look stupid if you want I must deserve it.

4fingermick
Thanks for the words of wisdom, we needed that!
The crimp you see is from the way I fold the patch at the base. I start at the seem where the paper ends and pinch it between thumb and finger then press it down, then move over and do the same 4 times so that each fold will overlap the one before it. Then holding the last fold place it in the sizer die and size to what suites you keeping normal lube pressure on the res.
This irons on the patch, lubes it, presses the base flat, and injects lube between the base folds.
I have tried this with Lee sizers to see if customers could use this method at home if they didnt have a lubrisizer . It works OK but of cource you dont get the lube that way. Also you have to be a bit more gentil getting the patch started into the die as now it is going in nose first.

Deputy Al
You bring up a point that everyone that tries to patch will have to deel with in some way. Most PP boolit designs are designed for a PP throat. The only rifle company I know that offers such a throat is Shiloh. All others must addapt in some way.
The one exception to the design problem that I know of is designed by Walt Melander and is a PP but designed for conventional throats like you Ruger. The pic on this thread is of that design. In 45 cal it starts as a RN then at the point at which the olgive reaches groove diameter it ends and drops to apx 451" for the remander of the shank length.
With this design there is actualy a ring of metal ahead of the leading edg of the patch that seems to prevent the problem you and I have had using conventional style designs or even sizing down groove designs.
Not all non PP throats will cause so much trouble with PP but like your Ruger with very abrupt and sharp new rifling can be a real pain. Good news is even your Ruger with some wear on those leading edges will become more forgiving in time.
If you would like to try a sample of the NEI design I think I have a few left over from the last order that havent gone back to the pot yet. I think they would be in pure lead. One more tip I have found that with PP I like to have the patch started well into the lands whan chambered. In my opinion the more the better or all that will chamber easily.
Cant always be done though as I also load these for the Marlin and with the length restrictions the entire patch is in the case except for just a small white line. For the Marlin I bump them flat first to be compatible with the tube mag. OH yea and never never crimp a PP! Best thing to do is use a load that has the boolit sitting on the powder.
BIC/BS

[KCSO]

Bruce
For the rifles with an abrupt ball seat i have went to a soft lead bullet cast at about 440 and patched up to 450. This bullet rides into the bore and expands up on firing. This way I can take a 45-2 1/10 case and load 65 grs of ffg and a grease wad and long seat the bullet so only about 1/4" is in the case mouth. When she goes bang the bullet slugs up and I can go maybe 5 shots without cleaning and good accuracy. This is still nowhere near my naked bullet loads that will go at least 15 before wiping.

I am working with an original business rifle that has a long tapered ball seat and for this one I use the 450 slugs patched out to 458. Usually you can make any rifle shoot PP, but it will take work and experimentation.

For an old guy with stiff fingers PP can be a PITA, I can patch about 50 bullets in an hour at most. I wish I had old Hugo's machine that did 20,000 an hour.

The only thing I like about PP is pulling a 45-90 PP out and seeing folks stare as I slide that big case with all that PP slug sticking out.

[StarMetal]

Just for the heck of it I tried some PP bullets out of a 7x57 Mauser. The rifle was an Interarms Mark X Mauser Mannclicher carbine. The rifle was shooting the 150 gr Lyman Loverin to the tune of about 3/4 inch groups at 100 yards with the help of a 3x9 scope. One day I decided to patch some of those Lyman Loverins. After the paper was dry I sized them in my luber/sizer with Javelina. They shot the same as the unpatched Lyman Loverins. The rifling leade in that barrel was very gentle. I had some jacketed through the barrel with a lot of the Lyman Loverins too, before I tried those PP bullet. I tried NRA's recommendations of spraying the finished patched bullets with Teflon spray, but went back to the sizing and lubing with Javelina, as I saw no better results. One thing about shooting patched, the bore sure stays clean.

Joe

[Hip's Ax]

Bullshop, what lube are you using?

[Bullshop]

Bullshop, what lube are you using?
Most often I use BS#2 a black powder lube if I am not shure what powder they will be used with. If I know it will be smokless powder I use Speed Green.
BIC/BS

[powderburnerr]

The freebore throats are not being made any more they would shoot but were very time consuming to do so with . there is a fellow up in the dakotas that shoots origional loads and has checked numerous origional rifles .. if they have a 15 degree throat and a tight chamber theyshoot very accurately . my load in the 110 is 90 gns of Kik 2F and a 3/8 grease wad between 2.30 veg wads .. it shoots very clean .I use a blow tube with 2 breaths just so as not to tear the patch and my bullets are 447 before wrapping and will fall into the barrel from the breach end wrapped .. I have a taper in the bore so they will not fall thru the muzzle .I also use a 550 with 100 gns Kik 2F and it works well also these are shot out of a 15 # sharps .


i have a 26 in barreled rifle I made up for hunting and am trying to get it to work with these loads as they are clean .. I just have to work through the torque of the rifle and it will be fine........Dean

[Four Fingers of Death]

Thanks bullshop, I'll have to give them a try. Now a 230Gn 452 Boolit, Paper wrapped and travelling at warp speed in my 45/70? I'd like to see that! :-)

[Bullshop]

Thanks bullshop, I'll have to give them a try. Now a 230Gn 452 Boolit, Paper wrapped and travelling at warp speed in my 45/70? I'd like to see that! :-)
I used to load a 200gn swc .451 patched for small game in an origonal trap door carbine. It shot good enough to pick the head off a grouce at 30 yards or so. I shot them real light cant remember the load but was like a 22. Never did think of trying to engauge warp drive. That would be a job for a siamese not a trap door.
BIC/BS