LBT 44 250 grain LFN design diameter

[Mark]

I am looking to buy an LBT mold (44 250 grain LFN no GC). I have concerns about the diameter of the the mold and how it will effect accuarcy in each gun. To make it simple, the mold will be used to make bullets for two guns, a S&W 629 with .430 throats and a Redhawk with .432 throats. I will use Wheel Weight metal only. I contacted Veral Smith about my concerns. He had a lot to say. To sum it up and keep it short, he said order the mold to drop a .433 diameter bullet (I use a Star and therefore he recommends the extra .001"). Order a short cut nose of .060. Size all of the bullets to .432 for best accuracy. I will be happy with the outcome.
First of all, who am I argue with Veral Smith? If the man says I will be happy, I should be happy. After all, I did ask for his opinion. But...his answers did bother me some. What do you folks think? Will leading be an issue in the 629? Will the 629 shoot the .432 bullet accurately?He didn't tell me to size down to .430. Most of my commercial cast bullets are .432-.433 and they shoot fine but are HARD. Could you post your opinions and experience please?
Thanks in advance,
Mark

[Blammer]

only thing you can do is try it

sizing down from .433 to .430 still should work well even if you can't get them to shoot well at .432

[Lloyd Smale]

better to big then to small

[S.R.Custom]

...But...his answers did bother me some. What do you folks think? Will leading be an issue in the 629? Will the 629 shoot the .432 bullet accurately?...

Unless you have other issues with the 629, it should shoot very accurately, and should not lead at all.

I've not mentioned this before and I'll probably catch hell for it, but I'll say it anyway-- Your best accuracy in either gun will occur not when you size the bullet .001" over chamber throat diameter as is so commonly advocated here, but when you size your bullets so fat that the loaded round barely chambers. If that ends up being .436", so be it. (Veral knows this, which is why he didn't tell you to size down for the 629.)

Case in point: I'm currently doing work with a Ruger SBH whose groove diameter measures .430", throats .431", and the ammo I'm loading is utilizing a Mihec 300 grain unit, shot as-cast at .435". I'm not even going to tell you how accurate this round is, because you wouldn't believe me if I told you. But to give you an idea, I will tell you what the Oehler 35P read when I shot through it-- Across all six holes, the extreme spread was only 15 fps. That's a standard deviation of only 5 fps....

I could get pretty windy in explaining why, but the short version is the fatter the bullet you use, the more it seals and prevents blow-by at ignition. And the better it seals, the more consistent your ammo will be from shot to shot....

[Mark]

Unless you have other issues with the 629, it should shoot very accurately, and should not lead at all.

I've not mentioned this before and I'll probably catch hell for it, but I'll say it anyway-- Your best accuracy in either gun will occur not when you size the bullet .001" over chamber throat diameter as is so commonly advocated here, but when you size your bullets so fat that the loaded round barely chambers. If that ends up being .436", so be it. (Veral knows this, which is why he didn't tell you to size down for the 629.)

Case in point: I'm currently doing work with a Ruger SBH whose groove diameter measures .430", throats .431", and the ammo I'm loading is utilizing a Mihec 300 grain unit, shot as-cast at .435". I'm not even going to tell you how accurate this round is, because you wouldn't believe me if I told you. But to give you an idea, I will tell you what the Oehler 35P read when I shot through it-- Across all six holes, the extreme spread was only 15 fps. That's a standard deviation of only 5 fps....

I could get pretty windy in explaining why, but the short version is the fatter the bullet you use, the more it seals and prevents blow-by at ignition. And the better it seals, the more consistent your ammo will be from shot to shot....


Right now the 629 has no issues. I don't want to change that. I am really worried about leading. A 4 cavity LBT is an expensive experiement, but I think I will try it. I will order in the next week or two so anyone else has an opinion, please continue to post. Thank you all for your opinions.
Mark

[S.R.Custom]

In and of itself, a bullet .003" or so over throat diameter will not cause leading.

As for the cost of the mould, don't worry about it. If it doesn't work the way you want it to, you can always sell it. There is no shortage of guys willing to try the same --hell, I might even want it-- so the at most, you might be out 20 or 30 bucks. I wish all of life's lessons came that cheap...

[Changeling]

Unless you have other issues with the 629, it should shoot very accurately, and should not lead at all.

I've not mentioned this before and I'll probably catch hell for it, but I'll say it anyway-- Your best accuracy in either gun will occur not when you size the bullet .001" over chamber throat diameter as is so commonly advocated here, but when you size your bullets so fat that the loaded round barely chambers. If that ends up being .436", so be it. (Veral knows this, which is why he didn't tell you to size down for the 629.)

Case in point: I'm currently doing work with a Ruger SBH whose groove diameter measures .430", throats .431", and the ammo I'm loading is utilizing a Mihec 300 grain unit, shot as-cast at .435". I'm not even going to tell you how accurate this round is, because you wouldn't believe me if I told you. But to give you an idea, I will tell you what the Oehler 35P read when I shot through it-- Across all six holes, the extreme spread was only 15 fps. That's a standard deviation of only 5 fps....

I could get pretty windy in explaining why, but the short version is the fatter the bullet you use, the more it seals and prevents blow-by at ignition. And the better it seals, the more consistent your ammo will be from shot to shot....

If what you say is true (I know very little) why does anyone need a Lubrisizer, why can't one just go from the casting size to the loading (bullet lube of course) and eliminate a step?

[Blammer]

because most boolits thrown from a mould won't fit into the chamber 'as cast' and need to be sized.

[Changeling]

because most boolits thrown from a mould won't fit into the chamber 'as cast' and need to be sized.

Thanks, but if LBT for instance guarantees the diameter in his molds to drop at .001, wouldn't this be OK? What I mean is there are people shooting cast at 2 to more thousands over cylinder throat size with awesome accuracy. Now I'm really confused.

[felix]

Yes, OK! Get the mold at 433 and don't look back. ... felix

[S.R.Custom]

If what you say is true (I know very little) why does anyone need a Lubrisizer, why can't one just go from the casting size to the loading (bullet lube of course) and eliminate a step?

Strictly speaking, you can... if, to paraphrase Blammer, they fit.

The down side of sizing to "fill the chamber" is that now you have to start paying attention to variances in brass thickness, concentricity of your reloads, etc. Not to mention variances in the chambers themselves from gun to gun. Some guys find all that tedious and prefer to size to one-fits-all.

I personally don't mind the added labor involved, as I find the increased accuracy worth it. I cast/lube/size all my .44 bullets to .435", and I keep a handful of Lee Push-through sizers on hand in various smaller sizes to do any additional sizing for any particular gun that needs it. Which is quite rare, really, as most mass produced .44s have generous, sloppy chambers. Particularly Rugers.

I mention all this not to say that this what one should do, but rather, to point out to the original poster that a bullet a few thousandths over throat isn't something to be concerned about. Indeed, it can be a very good thing. Better to get a mould too big and have bullets that fit all your guns, as opposed to a mould too small that only fits one gun.

[anachronism]

Have the S&W cylinder bored out to match the Ruger.

[S.R.Custom]

Have the S&W cylinder bored out to match the Ruger.

Ehh.... At .430", the throats on the Smith are almost perfect for .430" Hornady XTPs. If you've got a gun that's dimensioned correctly for jacketed bullets, you're better off to keep it that way.

[Mark]

In this post you say:


Unless you have other issues with the 629, it should shoot very accurately, and should not lead at all.

I've not mentioned this before and I'll probably catch hell for it, but I'll say it anyway-- Your best accuracy in either gun will occur not when you size the bullet .001" over chamber throat diameter as is so commonly advocated here, but when you size your bullets so fat that the loaded round barely chambers. If that ends up being .436", so be it. (Veral knows this, which is why he didn't tell you to size down for the 629.)

..

In this post, you say
"...I personally don't mind the added labor involved, as I find the increased accuracy worth it. I cast/lube/size all my .44 bullets to .435", and I keep a handful of Lee Push-through sizers on hand in various smaller sizes to do any additional sizing for any particular gun that needs it. Which is quite rare, really, as most mass produced .44s have generous, sloppy chambers. Particularly Rugers.

I mention all this not to say that this what one should do, but rather, to point out to the original poster that a bullet a few thousandths over throat isn't something to be concerned about. Indeed, it can be a very good thing..."

Then, why do you need the Lee sizer? Does the .435 not fit the chamber of all of your guns? No, you are not catching hell from me. I thank you for your responses. I asked the question and I don't completely understand your answer. Do you size all of your bullets to .435 for you Rugers? Which guns don't get the .435 bullet? Do you get any leading in the chambers using the .435 bullets? Like I said in my first post, most of my commercial cast bullets are .432-.433 and they shoot fine but they are HARD. My cast bullets are soft by comparison.

Thanks again,
Mark

[S.R.Custom]

...No, you are not catching hell from me. I thank you for your responses. I asked the question and I don't completely understand your answer...

No problem. Let me clarify...

When I cast bullets for the .44, I'll cast thousands at a time, and lube/size them all to as-cast .435", sort them all into little trays of 50, and stack those trays on my cast bullet shelves for use later as needed...


...why do you need the Lee sizer? Does the .435 not fit the chamber of all of your guns?

Most times, they'll work as-is. Which is to say they'll work as-cast when loaded in the Rugers, which are the loosest chambered guns currently in the stable. On the other hand, S&W and Japanese Winchester chambers generally run a bit smaller, and that combined with the fact that I sometimes use Winchester brass (it's thicker at the mouth than Federal or Remington), means I might have to size some bullets to as small as .433" to run in the tight guns.

Point being, whatever gun I'm shooting, I make the effort to accomodate its chamber size with the appropriate brass thickness and bullet diameter such that the loaded round barely slips into the chamber without any slop. In the case of the single actions, I'll even load the rounds so fat as to require a bit of finger pressure to coax them into the chambers.

[edit] And no, the fat loaded stuff doesn't lead the throats. Throat leading is a function of the metal finish in the throats. A well-polished throat will not lead regardless of how oversized the bullet, provided you're using a decent lube. (Translation: Ruger throats invariably need polishing, S&W throats are generally good-to-go out of the box.)

[Mark]

No problem. Let me clarify...


[edit] And no, the fat loaded stuff doesn't lead the throats. Throat leading is a function of the metal finish in the throats. A well-polished throat will not lead regardless of how oversized the bullet, provided you're using a decent lube. (Translation: Ruger throats invariably need polishing, S&W throats are generally good-to-go out of the box.)

Thank you for clearing that up. As for the edit, I noticed my Ruger Flattop 44 Special does lead the chamber. My Blackhawk does lead the chamber after many rounds. My Redhawk and the 629 do not lead the chamber. Lube is LBT but I only have 2 sticks left until the switch to Lars Carnuba Red.
Mark