NYC Sues Out of State Gun Dealer

[StarMetal]

A while back, think it was Grumble was wanting to know about some NYC politicians getting together with some others and talk about gun control. Well just on Fox news now it was announced that NYC is sueing 15 out of state gun dealer. Apparently NYC sent out undercover agents to purchase guns from various dealers in states surrrounding New York. They names some...PA, OH, and NJ. Something about improper selling of firearms. Also said they would be asking compensation for damages, etc. Well if they sold them to all bona fide NYC undercover agents what kind of damage did these agents do?

Joe

[Scrounger]

If these dealers sold to non-residents in violation of the terms of the license which they have, they broke the law and deserve to be not only sued but also jailed. Simply put, they are lawbreakers. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. Play the game by the rules or get out.

[StarMetal]

Art,

I see you changed your signature. Cool...Pinky and the Brain...one was a genius, the other insane. Good ole cartoon.

Joe

[Maven]

Today's (5/16/06) N.Y. Times Metro. section had that article and no, it wasn't NYC politicians persecuting innocent gun dealers. Rather, it was dealers who sold gun to those not allowed to own them and "straw man" purchases that were targeted. And that's a good thing in my book!

[StarMetal]

Paul,

Thanks for clairifying that . Yes, bad gundealers are no good to anybody.

Joe

[porkchop bob]

Two local stores are in this. NYC sent in two undercovers. One asked the questions and handled the weapon and the second one filled out the forms and was approved for the purchase. NYC claims the store should have noticed the two individuals teaming up and not made the sale. Store is saying the individual submitted correct paperwork, valid ID, and were accepted by SLED for the purchase.

Bob

[Scrounger]

Two local stores are in this. NYC sent in two undercovers. One asked the questions and handled the weapon and the second one filled out the forms and was approved for the purchase. NYC claims the store should have noticed the two individuals teaming up and not made the sale. Store is saying the individual submitted correct paperwork, valid ID, and were accepted by SLED for the purchase.

Bob


Unless the dealer has an idiot for a lawyer, he should win this one without going to trial even.
1. Handling the gun and asking questions does NOT constitute a sale.
2. Filling out paperwork does constitute a sale but the buyer is under no obligation to handle the gun or ask questions about it.
The attempted sting, and that is what it was,entrapment, was clumsily and incorrectly done. There was no illegal act by the dealer. Now if they talked to him, saying something like,"Is it OK if my friend fills out the papers for me?", or something that plainly says the man filling out the papers ISN'T the actual buyer, then the dealer would be in trouble. And then there's Catch 22: If I remember correctly, one of the questions on the 4473 is "Are you the actual Buyer" or something like that. If the 'paper man' lies or incorrectly fills out the papers in any way, the sale is invalid from the gitgo.

[Hip's Ax]

Not sure what they could have pulled off in NJ, buying a rifle let alone a handgun is an amazing PIA here. Rifle or shotgun? Have to have the NJ FID card (takes months to get) AND at time of purchase go through NICS plus they also want your NJ DL. Handgun? All of the above PLUS a single use pistol permit good of one handgun with a 90 day expiration and the single use permit can take months to get.

[carpetman]

Scrounger---Unless the guy has an idiot for a lawyer----there are other types? Opppss sorry Wills couldnt resist it.

[wills]

Two local stores are in this. NYC sent in two undercovers. One asked the questions and handled the weapon and the second one filled out the forms and was approved for the purchase. NYC claims the store should have noticed the two individuals teaming up and not made the sale. Store is saying the individual submitted correct paperwork, valid ID, and were accepted by SLED for the purchase.

Bob

So, by that theory, if a novice takes a knowledgeable friend with him to help with his first purchase, they would be in violation of the law. That is why it is a civil suit, not criminal prosecution, lesser standard of proof.

[porkchop bob]

Article from today's paper at this link. http://www.charleston.net/stories/?newsID=87886&section=localnews

Details such as type or number, or ID of purchaser from the paperwork are absence.

As a SC citizen, I can purchase as many handguns and/or long guns as I can afford at one time. A year or so ago, there was a limit to one handgun a month. I mis-read the Law and thought I was required to purchase one a month. I think my wife had it changed as she was getting tired of grits three meals a day. We have instant electronic check to verify there is nothing to prevent the sale. Most of my purchases been approved within 15 minutes of the submission of the call to SLED. Some days are busy and the approval is delayed for a few hours.

I have read getting a set of false ID documentation is possible. Who knows what really happened.

Bob

[Scrounger]

There are dishonest dealers out there. A lot of dealers are in it because they love guns, like we do. But some of them are just merchants, which means they left their morals at home, anything for a profit. I have spent a large portion of my life in gunshops and on more than one occaison I have seen dealers make sales in circumstances I wouldn't have. One common one was for the 'buyer' to have his wife/girlfriend fillout the paperwork. I wouldn't have allowed it but I had no say in the matter. One reason I have refused to work in gunshops the last 25 years...

[floodgate]

Years ago, a dealer near where I lived had a BATF***er come in undercover and try to run a quantity "straw" purchase. Dealer hit the "silent alarm" and the deputies converged on the store from the SO a block away. Agent tried to pull out his ID; "Keep yer hands in sight, buddy!" and they toted him off to the pokey overnight; sadly(!) the 'phone was out of order so he couldn't call his boss to verify his identity. Next time he came around, he was much mellower, showed his ID first and asked - very politely - if he could check the dealer's books. Of course, all was in order.

floodgate

[redneckdan]

Dealer hit the "silent alarm" and the deputies converged on the store from the SO a block away. Agent tried to pull out his ID; "Keep yer hands in sight, buddy!" and they toted him off to the pokey overnight; sadly(!) the 'phone was out of order so he couldn't call his boss to verify his identity.
floodgate

Funny how being on the other end of gun can really change a BATF agents perspective on things.

[HTRN]

I would like to point out a coupla things as I am a interested party in this boondoggle.

1) "Mayor Mike" hates guns, and by Extension, gun dealers
2) I've bought guns at one of the stores being sued(Dunkelbergers - one of the nicest gunshops I've ever seen, but expensive!). I had to fill out a 4473, go through NICS. When asked to fill out the "greenform"(NYC individual longarm reg form). They complied willingly.
3) The NYC "law" violates the Constitution as it deals with interstate commerce, which is the domain of the Federal Government.
4) All of the socalled "law breakers" followed local regulations. The "law" that was broken involved transporting guns into NYC. How can a dealer be responsible for something a customer does or does not do(IE file the paperwork, which NYC makes a bitch to do) in another state?
5) "Mayor Mike" is a money grubbing douche who looks everywhere to raise "revenue". Taxes have gone up, and they've gotten creative with fines and fees. He's just looking for money.


HTRN

[porkchop bob]

Another article from today's paper. More details. Read and judge for yourself.
http://www.charleston.net/stories/?newsID=88174&section=localnews

Law suits are expensive and NYC can out spend any retailer. Even if the transactions were correct, the retailer may fold to reduce his cost.

This store is about 0.5 miles from US I-26 interchange. 20 miles from Charleston and 30 miles from I-95. There are 3 gun stores in the area. This one is the closest to the interchange.

Bob