Cast bullets in .223

[WyrTwister]

Starting to experiment .

For an AR , hopefully , if not , then in a bolt gun .

50 grain FP GC .

I know this is probably not going to be as straight forward as .30 caliber and bigger .

Constructive suggestions solicited .

God bless
Wyr

[Wally]

I use a RCBS 55 grain with 8.0 grains of Unique--2,100 FPS in my Rem 700---I have not used any cast bullets in a a semi-auto rifle...this caliber is very sensitive to the wind, but on a good day, very accurate.

[sheepdog]

The 223 does not lend itself well to the cast boolit. Hence the 22 LR swaged 224. You might find the swagers willing to trade you swagged 224 for cast boolits.

[Wally]

Sheepdog makes a good point as I also use a .22-250 with cast bullets..using the same bullet (55 grain RCBS-GC) the .22-250 is far more accurate, however the .22-250 sports a varmint bull barrel... I do happen to think that the .223 with cast bullets is accurate enough for me out to medium ranges...to me it is just a souped up .22 Magnum RF...

[WyrTwister]

I use a RCBS 55 grain with 8.0 grains of Unique--2,100 FPS in my Rem 700---I have not used any cast bullets in a a semi-auto rifle...this caliber is very sensitive to the wind, but on a good day, very accurate.


Do you know the barrel twist ?

What lube are you using ?

I also have a Ruger .223 bolt gun .

God bless
Wyr

[Wally]

I am sorry, I don't know....for lube I use a homemade lube of 50% church candles & 50% lithium grease. I used to use the NRA 50/50 Alox/beeswax--mine works just as well.

[Calamity Jake]

I purchased a RRA AR15 with heavy varmit barrel in 1:12 twist just for cast boolits and it shoots pretty good with RCBS 22-055 fp @ .225, felix lube and AA2015 @17.5 gr. Don't
know the speed but it cycles the action good throwing cases about 3 feet.

Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done. There many shooters on this board that shoot cast in there AR, It's easer than you think.

[sheepdog]

Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done.

We never said can't. Maybe shouldn't but not can't. You can shot cast out of Glocks just fine but is it worth the effort of cleaning after every box? Honestly buying a special firearm that just geared towards cast doesn't sound practical to me.

If you don't see a caliber under Lee's available moulds its probably because there isn't a market, need, or practicality for it.

[StarMetal]

We never said can't. Maybe shouldn't but not can't. You can shot cast out of Glocks just fine but is it worth the effort of cleaning after every box? Honestly buying a special firearm that just geared towards cast doesn't sound practical to me.

If you don't see a caliber under Lee's available moulds its probably because there isn't a market, need, or practicality for it.

Gosh, where do you get all this misinformation? Lee probably doesn't make 22 caliber molds because it's harder to cut the cherries accuracy and cut the cavities in the mould. It's not because there's no demand for them.

Whoever told you that you have to clean your Glock after every box told you wrong.

Because of all this misinformation you have gotten you're missing out on lots of fun. :groner:

Joe

[JIMinPHX]

I've been having good luck with these little honeys lately.

[yondering]

If you don't see a caliber under Lee's available moulds its probably because there isn't a market, need, or practicality for it.

Yeah... so that's why they don't make any .359" rifle molds...

[dualsport]

No way you can post a picture like that(they look awesome!) and not give the goods. Old Lyman 224450 hp'd?

[Bullshop Junior]

18gr of H-4895 and a 55gr cast (With GC and bullshop SG) shot REALLY good in my Remington 788.

[joel0407]

I'll be watching this one with eagle eyes.

I'm thinking of replacing my 22LR and find casting fun. I was thinking of a 22/250AI or 22BR with trail boss for cast and then loading them up with jacketed bullets for varminting at longer ranges.

[jack19512]

Whoever told you that you have to clean your Glock after every box told you wrong.







I shoot cast out of my G26 with the original barrel and have never had any problems. I do clean after shooting but do this with all of my guns that shoot cast. I clean because I want to not because I have to so I would have to agree with you. Although I know there is going to be somebody that 's going to tell me how my Glock is gonna blow up on me someday. :)

[richbug]

Gosh, where do you get all this misinformation? Lee probably doesn't make 22 caliber molds because it's harder to cut the cherries accuracy and cut the cavities in the mould. It's not because there's no demand for them.

Whoever told you that you have to clean your Glock after every box told you wrong.

Because of all this misinformation you have gotten you're missing out on lots of fun. :groner:

Joe


Talk about misinformation... Who told you Lee uses cherries?

[bruce drake]

I use the 55gr LEE Bator Mold in my 223 Rem chambered AR15. This weekend, I found I had to seat the boolit deeper than my standard 55gr spitzer due to that nice rounded meplat on the boolit was engaging the rifling and not letting the bolt seat properly. Nice accuracy out to 100 yards so far. no recoil to speak of at 9gr of Unique and ejects the case cleanly. More information when I can get to the range again.

Bruce

[Dutchman]

Wyr


Good to see you're still alive & kicking..


Dutch

[corvette8n]

I use the 55gr LEE Bator Mold in my 223 Rem chambered AR15. This weekend, I found I had to seat the boolit deeper than my standard 55gr spitzer due to that nice rounded meplat on the boolit was engaging the rifling and not letting the bolt seat properly. Nice accuracy out to 100 yards so far. no recoil to speak of at 9gr of Unique and ejects the case cleanly. More information when I can get to the range again.

Bruce

Bruce that is just the info I was looking for, I have an AR15 w/ a 1 in 9 twist and just purchased the Lee Bator mold, I cast about 75 boolits but have yet to load any up.
I'll be watching for your range report.

[bruce drake]

My AR15 has a 1/9 twist also. I probably won't be able to get out there for another few weeks. I'll follow up when I've got a chance to shoot it again.

Bruce

[JIMinPHX]

Gosh, where do you get all this misinformation? Lee probably doesn't make 22 caliber molds because it's harder to cut the cherries accuracy and cut the cavities in the mould. It's not because there's no demand for them...

Actually, Lee does make .22 caliber molds. They make the Bator mold. It is not a stock catalog item, but you can special order it through Midsouth. Several board members, myself included, use them with great success. Since they are a special order item, be prepared to wait if you do order one.

[JIMinPHX]

No way you can post a picture like that(they look awesome!) and not give the goods. Old Lyman 224450 hp'd?

Close...It's a 225415. I hollow point them after casting by using a drill rig on my lathe. More on that here - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=29432

I'm getting better accuracy out of that 225415 now that I'm seating the boolit out further than I was before. More on that here - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=62082

Now that I've switched to Rooster Red lube, my accuracy has improved a little more over using Orange Magic with the 225415 that has both lube grooves filled & exposed.

I was able to load the Bator to a shorter c.o.a.l. & still touch the lands in my rifle. That boolit let me keep one lube groove covered by the neck of the brass. I found that with the Bator, I could just fill the lower groove with Lyman Super Moly lube & get good results. Leaving the exposed top lube groove empty seemed to cause no problems what so ever.

If you really want to learn something about casting for the .223, then you should probably start by reading the 3-part series that Beagle posted over on castpics. Be prepared to sit down & read for a while. That man left very few stones unturned & was kind enough to document his efforts for our benefit.

http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/Cast%20in%20the%20.223.htm

http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20II.htm

http://www.castpics.net/memberarticles/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20III.htm


You can cast a whole lot of those little things out of a single pound of lead. It's hard to even run a 10 pound pot dry when you're making them.

[dualsport]

Thanks Jim. Those are mighty fine looking boolits. I do read everything here I can find on the .223. I'm working with a Vanguard and a couple H&Rs in .223, just got the Bator mold. Going through the learning curve, but accuracy is getting better. I also use an old Ideal 225438 and a 224450. I'm still waiting to hear Doc say he PPs those too!

[Jaybird62]

Check out "The Complete AR Rifleman" at your local newstand. I started playing around with the RCBS 22-055 and the Lyman 225468. I used straight linotype and a 50:50 mix of clip-on WW and lino in my testing. 14.0 grains of IMR 4198 with both alloys printed a hair over 2 inches at 100 yards and averaged 2,200+ fps. 14.0 grains of IMR 4198 also did well with the 225468 (62 grains) with the WW:L alloy. I'm pretty sure that group size can be improved, but I have not had a chance to tune it up with other powders. I was shooting a Bushmaster XM-15 Varminter, which is capable of 3/4 MOA groups with jacketed all day long.

Best of luck,
Jay

[Wally]

Try 8.0 grains of Unique---you'll get 2,100 FPS MV or so...it is a very accurate load in my Rem 700 using the 55 grain RCBS cast bullet.

[jimb16]

Looks like I'm going to have to start loading cast for my Contender carbine. Looks like I should be able to come up with a real good squirrel and woodchuck load.

[Fat-beeman]

I have been playing around with my cast 223 from lyman its 55 grfp right now useing blue dot 10gr good 100yd groups tried red dot and unique I have savage bolt 1 in 7 I believe going to buy the 22 cal bator from lee to try next.I use gas checks on most loads
Don

[Stoats]

I had a rather productive evening yesterday and for the 1st time got fairly good results straight off the bat attempting something new.

I decided, for the challenge, to try some cast bullets in 223 Remington, which is not a terribly cast-friendly cartridge.

Since I really did not know how this was going to go, I only did the test at 50 m (and once I started at that distance I really had to finish at that distance), and as I ramped up the loads from 10.5-12.0 grains of N 110 behind Lyman's most modern 55 grain bullet, the groups got down to 1.7 MOA. That might not sound impressive, but these are by far the smallest and the fastest cast bullets I have ever attempted, and I loaded them with basic Lee dies (including the universal case mouth expander) rather than match dies. I also couldn't discard every bullet with the slightest flaw as you need to do with these small cast pills, since I didn't have enough.

So having expected 3-4 MOA groups and leading, I was really pleased to have come away with groups bettering the vast majority of factory FMJ, and no leading to speak of.

I am thus a very happy little stoat right now...

If I can get them to cycle the AR they will make marvellous training rounds.

[Philngruvy]

Have any of you used LLA on the Bator in the AR?

[MaxJon]

Hey JIMniPHX, what mould is that? Nice work!!!

[NSP64]

I have researched for .223 rem loads with cast (225415 48gr w/GC) that I got from some fellow casters here to try.:drinks: I used a stevens 200 stock .223 remington (1-9 I think) All loads used CCI SR primers. @ 50yrds

Load 1......11 gr H4227 1850 fps avg - loose(3")
load 2.......9 gr Unique 2550fps avg 1" with a flier 5" out
load 3......14 gr H4198 2200 fps avg 1.5 " looks promising for this one

The gun will shoot 3/4 with j-words


I also have some 60gr 225415 look alikes I'm going to try:cbpour:

[bruce drake]

Have any of you used LLA on the Bator in the AR?

Yep. works fine.

I've bought a .225 push-through sizing die from Buckshot that works wonders as well.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

NSP64,
that 9gr Unique is is what I used and I had an occasional flier as well. I attributed the fliers to my deciding to not cull my cast boolits since I had a limited amount cast up. Those 223 boolits are hard to get to fill out nicely with my standard wheelweight alloy mix.

Your speeds are in line with what I chronoed as well. I tumble my boolits with LLA and then size with Lars45 50/50 in my Lyman 45 at .225 to ensure I've got enough lube on for the high velocity.

Bruce

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

I picked up a BATOR mold a while back, shots great in my .220 Swift. I loaded 20 in
.223 for my 24" heavy barrel AR15 using 9 grains of Unique, at this point I was looking for function and this load cycledthe bolt about 1/3rd open, the boolits hit where aimed but I didnt shoot for groups.

Another member poted on this thread that his load cycled his AR so I am assuming it had a shorter barrel (perhaps even a carbine gas system) and that mine with the long tube and rifle lentgh gas system there is just not enough port pressure, or the pressure curve is peaking before the boolit crosses the gas port and is declining.

It appears the 9 grain load of Unique is pretty close to max, have any of you uses
AA2230(C)? I use this powder for acuracy loads using jacketed bullets and it performs beautifully in all AR's I have loaded for (it is a surplus pull down powder ued for 5.56 but is sold commercially by Accurate Arms as well non C).

Or is there another powder I should try? How about WC846(T)?

Jeff

[bruce drake]

My ARs have 20 barrels with adjustable gas ports. Your's sounds like they are setup quite differently regarding barrel length and possible gas port location.

[JIMinPHX]

Hey JIMniPHX, what mould is that? Nice work!!!

Lyman 225415 with a 3/32" drilled HP.

[Moonie]

Planning on using the bator mold (if it ever comes in to midsouth again) in a 16" AR with mid-length gas port, hope the 9gr of Unique will cycle it as I use Unique in alot of loads. Sorry to hear it won't with a rifle length port.

[357maximum]

I run the heavy version 225415 with the long GC shank full out @ 3K+ with H322 and H335 and get great 1 to 1.2 M.O.A results in my H&R handi for about 19-20 shots at which point I need to wipe the bore with a clean dry loose fitting patch to get another 19-20 shots. The phenomenon is to due to almost invisible powder fouling and the micro like rifling I guess ...all I know is that it works until it stops and a quick patch brings it back for another 19-20 rds. I made a pull through patch out of weedeater line just for this purpose.

Alloy is Wd'ed 50/50 ww/pure + 5% NICKEL Bearing Railroad BABBIT cured for 2 weeks before firing.
Charges are H335-25Gr and H322 23Gr (H322 is a slight bit better)
Rem 7.5 primers on all loads
MML and LLA+Mica dusting lubes (LLA+MICA outshoots the MML by a skosh despite all my efforts)
H&R superlight 223 (1/12 twist) with a tasco 3X9
Brass is RP 222REM MAG sized and trimmed to fit the loong neck.

[StarMetal]

Way to go Mikey!!!!! That puts you in the vicinity of over 180,000 rpm at 3000 + fps. Darn good job. I like that lube combination too.:drinks::drinks:

[357maximum]

Way to go Mikey!!!!! That puts you in the vicinity of over 180,000 rpm at 3000 + fps. Darn good job. I like that lube combination too.:drinks::drinks:

I never did the math on the RPM as I had not really thought/cared about it.......wow. I do know that @ 65 yards it turns a starling into vapor and red mist.:bigsmyl2:

I have tried alot of lubes including the HV accuracy standard LBT soft blue, and despite all my efforts the LLA+mica has done em all in in this 223. Whats weird is that I started using the LL+Mica on LV 357 and 30/30 plinkers....it worked well there also. Whats really weird is that none of my other guns prefer LLA+MICA at full speeds..............Color me confused, but I am a loyal follower of what professor guns says he wants so...so be it.

[StarMetal]

Mikey,

Each rifle is in an entirely of it's own. We're finding that out more and more.

Sounds like I have to send you some of my soap lube cause I want to know, just like the Enquirer, I want to know if it will work.

[Stoats]

I had chronograph out and am getting an average of almost bang on 2400 ft./s with alloy at 22 BHN and a Lyman 225646 and 12 grains of N110. Interestingly I found almost exactly the same as Beagle did in his article "why grown men cry".

Rifle is a Remington 700 heavy barrel 1:9" twist.

[Larry Gibson]

357Maximum

Good to see another has found that cleaning the barrel after a certain amount of shots many times improves and/or maintains accuracy at high velocity. I've often found that "almost invisible powder fouling" to be a detriment to accuracy at HV even with the best of lubes. Funny how when I mentioned that there was a whole string of critical posts on how they never clean their barrels and "seasoning" is always better.....go figure;-)

Glad to see someone else understands.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Maximum, I tend to find the .22 bores are more prone to fouling when shooting cast.

[damron g]

When run below 1700 hard 22's with NRA lube and a good quality barrel don't generally need cleaning.A Remington 40x in 222 with unk smooth BR barrel has many times averaged 1/2 to 3/4 MOA for a few groups in a row and shot 195-7X in a CBA match 10 years back. The rifle hasn't been cleaned for 10 years.When i shot my Savage 22-250 in a CBA match at 2100 i needed to clean with a wire brush about every 15 shots or else much vertical stringing.When i tone them down to 1650 i can go long term without cleaning.Funny thing is you can run 22's with no GC in linotype at 2800 and you wont get leading ,but accuracy is no better than 2MOA.You get that weird "powder fouling" mentioned above after about 50 shots without lube or GC.

George

[357maximum]

357Maximum

Good to see another has found that cleaning the barrel after a certain amount of shots many times improves and/or maintains accuracy at high velocity. I've often found that "almost invisible powder fouling" to be a detriment to accuracy at HV even with the best of lubes. Funny how when I mentioned that there was a whole string of critical posts on how they never clean their barrels and "seasoning" is always better.....go figure;-)

Glad to see someone else understands.

Larry Gibson

Larry

This 223 handi sure NEEDS to be de-fouled every 20rds, but i would not call it a "CLEANING" as it is just 1 pass with a loose patch and all I get on the patch is some powder fouling. This 223 is the only cast gun I have that does not like to be seasoned, but every rifle has it's quirks and we as the temporary caretakers of rifles need to do as they ask I spose. I have many 35's , one 7mm and several 30's that show no such tendencies at full J-word speeds, but if they did I would dry pass their innards too. I am a "season your bore" person until it do not serve my perpose. There is no RIGHT or WRONG way to do our little hobby, but we all must listedn to what PROFESSOR GUN tells us he wants when going faaaaaaaaaast or slooooooooooow.


I have not seen this phenomenon in this gun when I stay below 2700FPS, just when I get crazy with the velocity.

[damron g]

" I am a "season your bore" person until it do not serve my perpose. There is no RIGHT or WRONG way to do our little hobby, but we all must listedn to what PROFESSOR GUN tells us he wants when going faaaaaaaaaast or slooooooooooow."

I have the same philosophy on bore condition.My plain-base loads at 1200 or so in the 30-06 and 7.62 x 54 seem to need a brush every 15-20 or i get a carbon build up in ft of the throat that is a bear to get out if i let it go too long.After the brush the gun has the same point of impact and is "in" the group. (as long as i don't let it cool down,then i have to fire two that go 2" higher ).These and my above mentioned 22-250 at higher velocity are the only two i have that seem to need a swab or two,all others get cleaned once a decade of when they need it.I have shot quite a few CBA matches and some clean every string and some don't.There has been no pattern to who does what and ends up on top.Heavy BR Class guys clean more than our Military class guys and it could be the higher 2100+ velocity,but i don't do it with my 30BR at similar speeds.Consistent bore condition is all that matters however you get it.
I think some people just like to clean rifles and are not willing to see what happens if they don't.

GD

[StarMetal]

When run below 1700 hard 22's with NRA lube and a good quality barrel don't generally need cleaning.A Remington 40x in 222 with unk smooth BR barrel has many times averaged 1/2 to 3/4 MOA for a few groups in a row and shot 195-7X in a CBA match 10 years back. The rifle hasn't been cleaned for 10 years.When i shot my Savage 22-250 in a CBA match at 2100 i needed to clean with a wire brush about every 15 shots or else much vertical stringing.When i tone them down to 1650 i can go long term without cleaning.Funny thing is you can run 22's with no GC in linotype at 2800 and you wont get leading ,but accuracy is no better than 2MOA.You get that weird "powder fouling" mentioned above after about 50 shots without lube or GC.

George

Reading your post brought to mind shooting 22 RF's. They go just about forever without cleaning. You're under 1700 loads are pretty close to that except for the alloy hardness.

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum

Obviously a matter of semantics and our own take on what a word means. To me "unning a patch through the bore" amounts to "cleaning". May not be scrubbing it down to the bare metal but that patch is removing the fouling and to me that is cleaning. I also am one who believes in "seasoning" or "fouling the bore" with a few shots for best accuracy. I also find that most really soft alloys shot at HV will shoot their best from a clean bore before the fouling builds up. I do not however think that a barrel needs a whole lot (some have suggested upwards of 100+ shots) of "seasoning". If it does then there is something wrong with the load. Just my opinion based on never having to "season" a barrel with that many shots.

Many prefer to keep velocity down so that best accuracy is maintained without having to clean the barrel every so often. An AR shooter having to clean his barrel in the middle of every 20 round mag is probably not going to think much of a load such as yours. I doubt even if a PD or PP shooter would much care to stop and clean (even just running one patch through it) out in the field shooting. Some probably would but most wouldn't. BTW; I've been shooting cast in the .223 since the early '70s. I currently have 3 ARs; a 7" twist, a 9" twist and a 12" twist. I also have 3 bolt actions; a 9" twist and two 12" twists. Also I have two break open actions; an 11" twist and a 14" twist. Having shot a lot of cast bullets through all of them from 800 to 2600+ fps I've got a fairly decent idea of what gets you the best accuracy, what gets ok accuracy and what barely holds paper. It takes a lot more to get even ok accuracy at HV than some lead others to believe. I'm not saying it can't be done (usually with severe limitations) but the faster the twist of a .223 the harder it is to get best or even ok accuracy at HV. It is a whole lot easier to get accuracy up through 2600 fps with a slower twist than a faster twist.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

357 maximum,

I don't use a patch as you do on rifle that I feel get a little fouling, I use a clean (without solvent or oil) nylon bristle brush. I find this fouling with the dirtier powders and the harder lubes. I've found with harder lubes that they are okay while you're shooting because the barrels are warm and keep them soft in the bore, but setting the rifle till the next day in my basement shop, which is very cool, the lube hardens. That's when I use that brush and usually I don't have that first cold barrel hard lube flyer. This also maintains the lube seasoning as I'm convinced the bristles aren't small enough to clean it out of the pores of the metal. I doubt your patch cleans it out of the pores either and concur with you that it's not a "cleaning" just getting rid of the fouling.

[Jack Stanley]

StarMetal , If I follow you right . Then it should be easier to use soft lube and lower velocity to keep groups more consistant ?


In my twenty-two madness , so far I've found that just over theree grains Bullseye . a small pistol primer and a 225462 with Alox and gas check shoot well . Also just under eleven grains of 2400 , small rifle primer and a RCBS 22-55-FN lubed with Alox and gas check has worked

Haven't shot tons of either so I am still learning ....................

Jack

[StarMetal]

Jack,

It's easier to drive a car slower then faster, but we know that a car can be driven very fast.

With that said you have more to deal with when shooting at a high velocity. Little things can be greatly magnified. There is nothing wrong at all with what you said.

To answer your question, no, I can shoot consistent groups with what I'm doing, but if my rifle set for some time, especially if the shop was cold, I will throw that first shot most the time. After that first shot the rifle is back in the saddle so to speak.

I only buy into the rpm theories that anything done faster, no matter just about what it is, is harder to do than at a slower pace. Take cutting disks and circular saw blades, etc., have an rpm limit. Everything that spins has an rpm limit.

[Larry Gibson]

Everything that spins has an rpm limit.

Anybody besides me make note of that?

And after all this time of trying to convince me otherwise:-)

Larry Gibson

I only buy into the rpm theories that anything done faster, no matter just about what it is, is harder to do than at a slower pace.

BTW Joe; that's exactly what the RPM threshold is about. It's that point where the "harder" begins. Nice to see you finally agree with me whether you realise it or not.

[357maximum]

Jack,

It's easier to drive a car slower then faster, but we know that a car can be driven very fast.

I only buy into the rpm theories that anything done faster, no matter just about what it is, is harder to do than at a slower pace. Take cutting disks and circular saw blades, etc., have an rpm limit. Everything that spins has an rpm limit.


Well put Joe......I like that synapsis.:)


This thread went exactly where I expected it to after my 1st post. :roll: A great big thanks for not letting me down :drinks: goes out to the usual suspects..........thank you.

This superlight 223 lives in my truck and exists mainly to make woodchucks into furry wetspots in beanfields.............pulling a piece of weedeater string with a patch on it through the bore evey now and again is no real big inconvenience, but if that is exceedingly too difficult for some I guess I stand confused............thats fine I am confused alot.

I do know I do not have time to sit around thinkin about it, I load it and try it........it either works or it don't. Sometimes the test is JUST GOOD and you need to do a bit of tweaking to the way you use a load or tweak the load itself. All I know for sure is that I am not going to run my 223 at sub 22WMR speeds just to make life easier and avoid the CHORE of pulling a string through a bore.........but to each their own we all have an opinion and we all have...:mrgreen::neutral: If my test had failed miserably I would have loaded the rifle up with a 50Gr T-N-T over a large dose of H335 and been done with it, but it worked so I use it. Life ain't gotta be difficult.

[StarMetal]

Mike,

Glad you liked that analogy. Here's to add to it, cast bullets, just like an automobile engine do not have a rpm threshold, they have a rpm limit.

Did you hear that the Global Warming Expert's wife is going to divorce him? News said she was tire of his bull pucky.

[357maximum]

Tipper proably thought her aging heat wave issues were natural and Al kept trying to sell her carbon credits to fix the issue........I would bet it is Al's fault.:bigsmyl2:


What amazes me most on the whole RPM thing is how 4 or 5 souls swat each other back and forth even though in essence they kinda of sorta almost agree.............weird.

[StarMetal]

Tipper proably thought her aging heat wave issues were natural and Al kept trying to sell her carbon credits to fix the issue........I would bet it is Al's fault.:bigsmyl2:


What amazes me most on the whole RPM thing is how 4 or 5 souls swat each other back and forth even though in essence they kinda of sorta almost agree.............weird.

Well if you're lumping me in as almost agreeing you're wrong. Everything in the world has a limit....speed of light, how long a human being can live, how fast your heart can beat, you get the point. But you see Mikey I have exceptional rifles so I'm told because they break the rules of Albert Einsteins Theory of Rpmthresholdtivity. In fact your rifle posted here is exceptional now. We'll probably be told now that, like each door in your house has a threshold, so does each caliber.

Tipper you're a smart woman. [smilie=s:

[357maximum]

"Nobody's right if everybody is wrong".................the Earth used to be flat, humans used to expire at 30 and 3,000 FPS used to be a dream..........Rpmthresholdtivity= a theoretical rate of spin that some people believe is a limit and others believe that is the spot that seperates those with a sense of adventure and may be slightly masochistic and those that do/are not..........I am sure glad I started casting BEFORE I read the rulebook.....................pretty much all I got to say bout that.

[damron g]

"I am sure glad I started casting BEFORE I read the rulebook.....................pretty much all I got to say bout that.

I like it.

I never knew you HAD to use a CG bullet with GC and had great luck at lower velocity before i was "enlightened".Then i was told if it has a CG shank use it or accuracy will be horrible even at low velocity.Overnight accuracy went sour from just hearing this info<G>

George

[Larry Gibson]

starmetal and 357maximum

There you both go with that "limit" designation again. It's an RPM "threshold". That means the threshold can be crossed or pushed as you've both apparently done. Seems after all this time you'd understand that, especially since you're both doing it. A lot of the rest of us cross that threshold also but we understand the difference and don't get excited about it. It's not a "limit".

That's good shooting and probably a good load for a few shots at a time. However it would not be practical for an AR shooter who wants a "blastin" load or a varmint shooter out here who shoots several hundred (300 - 500) rounds in a day. Is that a "limit":-)

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

Ahhh......... lets see........... limits and thresholds.........those things hold things, and people, back. What you suppose and what actually is done are two different things in most cases. One's knowledge of what to do trumps whatever is supposed to happen. Advice for everyone......... learn what to do instead of reading, and abideing, someone elses excuse for failure.

[Jack Stanley]

Well fellas , like I said , I'm still learnin' . So what I think I'll do is see if'n I can pull out of the parking space without bangin' a fender and then see if I can get onto the road without running over a fireplug . There is little sense for me to put the effort into making tiny bullets only to throw them into buckshot looking groups . Maybe later I can get to running an AR with them .

Jack

[cardonasharp]

I just finished shooting cast bullets in my AR15. I was very disappointed with the results. I used a 55gr GC from a fellow caster who send them to try them out. The groups where tight. It did not cycle the bolt. Loads are or were as follows/


7.8
8.3
8.8
9.3
9.8 I used unique gun powder.

[JKH]

I tried a load of 9 grains Unique that another member stated cycled his AR15, I didnt shoot for groups but stricly for function, the bolt opened but not enough to eject the spent case. My AR has a 24" bull barrel so that may be why it wouldnt cycle.

Next step is a load with AA2230C. I have also been thinking about 2400, anyone get an AR with rifle length gas system to function with this powder? What about IMR4227?

How far could I go with Unique or is 9 grains the safe limit in .223/5.56?

Jeff

[StarMetal]

I tried a load of 9 grains Unique that another member stated cycled his AR15, I didnt shoot for groups but stricly for function, the bolt opened but not enough to eject the spent case. My AR has a 24" bull barrel so that may be why it wouldnt cycle.

Next step is a load with AA2230C. I have also been thinking about 2400, anyone get an AR with rifle length gas system to function with this powder? What about IMR4227?

How far could I go with Unique or is 9 grains the safe limit in .223/5.56?

Jeff

I have gotten my AR15 in 6.5 Grendel caliber to function with low charges of 4227. This was early stage testing to see if the rifle would shoot cast to start with. It does. I'll have to go from memory as it was just a test to see what the cast would do and my intentions were to use much slower rifle powders then the 4227. Be advised the 6.5 Grendel has more case capacity then the 5.56. I starte around 11 grains and went up to the point where I knew I should switch to a slower rifle powder.

[GabbyM]

did you have hope to cycle an AR with Unique? Since I've never hearsd of any sucsess with cycling with powders faster than 4227. 4895 is probably what you want to try.

Lyman list for bullet #225646 9.0 grains of Unique as max at 2209 fps and 41,400 C.U.P. did those loads over 9.0 grains still group tight? That's quite a kick for those little lead bullets. Bullet #225415 shows more powder. up to 9.5 grains.

Is it a big deal to you to have the bolt cycle? I know sicne I have a bolt gun in 223 it makes little sense to take out the AR if it wont feed auto cycle.

if you have any stick type rifle powder on the shelf it should work. I've used H4198 and RX7. it takes 14.5 and 15.6 gains respectively so your powder cost is about double that of Unique laods. Many AR's probably still would not cycle with those powders and 4895 adds another five grains to the laod at 19.5 to 20.0 gains. What I'm trying to get at is you can make the bolt cycle but you have to pay for it with double the powder charge of slower powder. My guess would be noise also increases.

[Stoats]

I'm currently finding that the pointless nose grooves on the Lyman 225646 cause most of the rejects when I'm casting, even with virgin Linotype. It seems they like to catch air bubbles, which are minimised by tipping the mould so that the air vents point diagonally.

Anyone else have this problem?

[45 2.1]

I'm currently finding that the pointless nose grooves on the Lyman 225646 cause most of the rejects when I'm casting, even with virgin Linotype. It seems they like to catch air bubbles, which are minimised by tipping the mould so that the air vents point diagonally.

Anyone else have this problem?

Your having a problem with trapped air. Use a small ladle such as the Lee or pour a small thin stream from a bottom pour. Try to get it in the sprue hole without closing it up with lead while pouring.

[O9Tacoma4x4]

I've been having good luck with these little honeys lately.


<little kid voice> Doe's are bootyfull.
/kidvoice

I've only seen cast rifle bullets once. .30 M1 Carbine. They were real nice @ 50-75 yards but they opened up quite a bit (9-13 inches) @ 100. Granted they were open sights from a rest but I'd seen the same Guy shoot a Hi-Point carbine and hold under 6 inches doing the same set up

[JKH]

Your having a problem with trapped air. Use a small ladle such as the Lee or pour a small thin stream from a bottom pour. Try to get it in the sprue hole without closing it up with lead while pouring.

I use a bottom pour LEE pot but this is exactly how I pour my LEE BATOR's, using this method I get perfect fill out with straight lino, even wheel weight alloy gives me very few rejects as long as I tip the mold and run the stream of lead on the edge of the sprue hole.

I hope the AA2230C will work, I read another post about cast lead boolits in an AR15 and the poster was using this podwer with success, I sure hope so because I have 8 pounds and it will make 1/2 minute loads with match bullets with most any load I throw in.

Jeff

[GabbyM]

It was stated above that lube groves in Lyman #225646 were usless.

I'm not sure those lube groves in the nose of Lyman #225646 are useless. Can't claim one way or the other. Not tried to shoot that bullet to maximum velocity with or without lubing the groves. Most I've shot have had empty noses. My rifles shoot max loads from the Lyman book but those stop at 2200 fps. Plus I've never tried a 200 round string of fire without cleaning. Plan to try dipping the #225646 noses in LLA after loaded into the rounds and ramping up the velocity to see if I can get 2500 fps from my 26” barrel bolt gun. 26” is a lot of tube to lube. With LLA in the nose and Felix in the groves it should be plenty of grease. I'll have to try it with and without the extra lube at a higher than normal cast velocity. Whatever “normal” is. I've only tried 14.5 grains of H4198 in my 223. Boring isn't it. Have H4895, RX15, RX17 for the HV loads and some Alliant 20/28 just for fun to duplicate Unique loads with what is advertised as a clean burning powder. Just need to spend more time shooting and less time on the internet.

As for getting 22 bullets cast up. They are indeed a challenge. I ended up using an alloy of one eight pound ingot of 2/6 alloy with one pound of Linotype added. Never did the alloy math on that but it's some scrap Lino I bought from a fellow here on the forum and it seams to work magic. It's some sweet stuff. It's expensive alloy but with a 55 grain bullet it ain't heavy. Can get good bullets with bottom poor. They look fine until set next to boolits cast with my Lyman ladle and pressure pored in the Lyman #225646. They are the most beautiful bullets I've ever made. When I bottom poor if the mould gets a bit hot bullets shrink. With the ladle they all come out perfect once everything gets to temp and going. With little 22's it's such a chore to get them running at peak output I get all set to go and run for two hours with no break. Other bullets I ladle poor are the RCBS 30-180-FN and Lyman 375449 two cavity. Seams when you get enough heat in to fill out they quickly move on to shrinkage. With a ladle poor I just get a pile of perfect bullets. They can't shrink with weight of a ladle full of lead on top of the sprue plate. Which is unfortunate since ladle poring is a drag compared to bottom poor. Not saying others can't get perfect 22 bullets with bottom poor. Just seams to evade my skill level.

[JKH]

Hey Gabby,

I havent tried ladle pouring my BATOR, but with the technique I have developed for that mold (it is finicky but stable once learned) I use with the bottom pour pot my boolits are extremely consistent, I plucked out and mic'ed over 100 boolits from one pour session and they were all less than a half thousandth within .226 (.226 to .2265), this is with straight up virgin lino-type that is good as gold for making these little boolits :^ ) I have about 70 pounds of it so that should make a few .22's over the years ;^ )

Casting these .22's is quite an adventure, it seem's like you arent making any headway and after an hour the little pile of boolits looks pretty pathetic... til you count them and find you have at least 300 to maybe 400 in the pile! When I first got my LEE BATOR mold I made a trade deal for it and offered the seller 2000 of theses little pill's nekid in trade for the brand new mold, THAT is an impressive amount of boolits! The whole kit and kaboodle fit into a $5 flat rate box which made me very happy :^ )

I hope to run some more loads through my AR this weekend with AA2230C, maybe it will be good and maybe it will be bad, we shall see.

Jeff

[Stoats]

I get 2400 ft./s with the 225646 without using the nose grooves

[BABore]

Those nose grooves are not meant for lube. The bore ride nose design of similar Lyman designs are a little bigger than common bore sizes. The grooves are there so the metal has someplace to upset to so it chambers and extracts easier. Similar to a Loverin design. The grooves also give a place for the fouling to go as well. While you can lube them, they are really meant to be.

[riverwalker76]

I've been having good luck with these little honeys lately.

What mold do you use? Those look great!!!

[Daryl]

I've been having good luck with these little honeys lately.

Hi Jim

I noticed how you have these seated. I was trying to seat mine deeper - more toward the front groove. This put the gas check, as best as I could tell, about 1/2 still in the neck of the case. How did you arrive at your seating depth?

thanks

Daryl

[riverwalker76]

I just finished shooting cast bullets in my AR15. I was very disappointed with the results. I used a 55gr GC from a fellow caster who send them to try them out. The groups where tight. It did not cycle the bolt. Loads are or were as follows/


7.8
8.3
8.8
9.3
9.8 I used unique gun powder.

I might actually be able to lend you some help in that department. :-P

I'm an AR-15 guy, and that is my weapon of specialty. ;)

Answer me this .... what type of stock / spring setup do you have, or the better question is .... what brand is your AR?

[cardonasharp]

DPMS Panther

[riverwalker76]

DPMS Panther

Before I go any further ....

was the Bolt Carrier Group not cycling at ALL, or was it not ejecting and not reaching full battery?

[cardonasharp]

it would fire but it would not cycle the bolt back to eject or chamber a round. I had to pull the handle to eject and chamber a round.:confused:

[riverwalker76]

it would fire but it would not cycle the bolt back to eject or chamber a round. I had to pull the handle to eject and chamber a round.:confused:

Two things ....

First, you need to switch out your buffer and spring in your stock when firing cast loads.
You want a 9mm buffer and spring. It will slow down your cycle and allow it to eject and chamber another round. You can find the parts here ....

Extra Power Spring .... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=152626

9mm Buffer .... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=121622&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=649

Next, you need to upgrade your extractor spring. The benefit of this is that it will enable your rifle to perform more reliably all around.

Extractor Upgrade Kit ....http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm

This will help, and I can almost guarantee that you will not have anymore problems after that! The physics are that with the heavier buffer and spring you will slow down the bolt carrier group and allow it to perform it's cycle fully before engaging the next round. A side benefit of this is that it will reduce the felt recoil. I keep an extra heavy spring and buffer in my AR at all times. The ones that the factories put out are designed for factory ammo.

If you really wanted to go premium ... you can go with what I put in all of my firearms. The Sprinco kits from http://www.sprinco.com/. These are the same springs that the US Naval Warfare specialists put in all of their rifles / pistols when they are upgrading or tuning a firearm.

[cardonasharp]

What will happen when I shot factory ammo or my reloads with 27.0grs of varget. Do I have to change everything back to factory specs. I do not want to switch back and forth. It may not be worth it just a thought.

[StarMetal]

I have to disagree. The cast load doesn't have enough power to cycle the rifle to start with and adding the 9mm buffer and spring will only make it worse. Slowly it down so it will cycle fully and load better??? Huh????

Don't waste your money. You don't need the buffer or any of the springs. Your rifle was set up for full power jacketed. Many of us are shooting cast with bone stock rifles. I have an adjustable gas valve on mine and it's tuned for jacketed, which means I have it turned down some from the wide open spot...and it even runs my anemic cast loads.

I got away from the fast pistol powder loads in my AR and have gone on to rifle powder and little hotter loads. A good powder is 4198 and if you want faster go to 4227.

I'll tell you something else heavier buffers and springs do too, they beat your carrier/bolt group up...and the barrel extension. A better solution then David Tubbs carrier weight or the heavier buffers are adjustable gas systems....like in an adjustable gas block or adjustable gas valve. I'm not saying you need this though.

[felix]

I would not purchase an auto of any type to be used with reloaded ammo that does not have a manually adjustable recoil system. Gas adjustment or replaceable springs are required, and I don't care which. ... felix

[riverwalker76]

What will happen when I shot factory ammo or my reloads with 27.0grs of varget. Do I have to change everything back to factory specs. I do not want to switch back and forth. It may not be worth it just a thought.

You can keep the same buffer and spring in your AR no matter what you shoot.

I have an H3 (Extra Heavy Buffer and Xtra Action Spring in my AR and I shoot everything .... pistol powder cast boolits, factory, and reloads.

A good friend of mine, Mike Pannone, wrote an article awhile back that you might want to look into. http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/ In this article he does a very good job of describing the function of the buffer, spring, and extractor.


I have to disagree. The cast load doesn't have enough power to cycle the rifle to start with and adding the 9mm buffer and spring will only make it worse. Slowly it down so it will cycle fully and load better??? Huh????


In all actuality ... it's probably not what you would think! It's probably the fact that his extractor is used to heavier loads and is worn in. He needs an extractor spring upgrade. I've seen it dozens of times. I even ran across one rifle that wouldn't fire WCC new production whatsoever. Every time I would fire a WCC cartridge it would fail to eject.

Trust me .... you need to adjust your platform to work with the amount of gas that is pushing the BCG. The 9mm platform will work fine. Think about it ... what do you think they use to cycle the 9mm AR platforms? They usually utilize a few grains less than what you are using.

One last thing to check ... take your Bolt Carrier Group apart and make sure it is spotless inside and out. The 3 rings on the back of your bolt .... make sure they are staggered and not in line with each other. I have seen this happen in some direct impingement platforms where the gas escapes the keys on some models.

Take my advice or don't ... I'm only trying to help and shed some light on the problem with the experience I have.

[StarMetal]

You can keep the same buffer and spring in your AR no matter what you shoot.

I have an H3 (Extra Heavy Buffer and Xtra Action Spring in my AR and I shoot everything .... pistol powder cast boolits, factory, and reloads.

A good friend of mine, Mike Pannone, wrote an article awhile back that you might want to look into. http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/ In this article he does a very good job of describing the function of the buffer, spring, and extractor.



In all actuality ... it's probably not what you would think! It's probably the fact that his extractor is used to heavier loads and is worn in. He needs an extractor spring upgrade. I've seen it dozens of times. I even ran across one rifle that wouldn't fire WCC new production whatsoever. Every time I would fire a WCC cartridge it would fail to eject.

Trust me .... you need to adjust your platform to work with the amount of gas that is pushing the BCG. The 9mm platform will work fine. Think about it ... what do you think they use to cycle the 9mm AR platforms? They usually utilize a few grains less than what you are using.

One last thing to check ... take your Bolt Carrier Group apart and make sure it is spotless inside and out. The 3 rings on the back of your bolt .... make sure they are staggered and not in line with each other. I have seen this happen in some direct impingement platforms where the gas escapes the keys on some models.

Take my advice or don't ... I'm only trying to help and shed some light on the problem with the experience I have.

Well we don't know if his extractor is shot and I highly doubt it. The 9mm is a straight blow back and the cartridge runs in the high 30K's so it needs a heavier bolt, heavier buffer, and heavier buffer spring. Like I said a heavier buffer or heavier carrier/bolt group, including a carrier weight, beat your gun unnecessary. There are narrow and special applications for lightened and heavier carriers.

The extractor as zero to do with the bolt/carrier group cycling back.

It's also a fallacy, unless the gas system is extremely worn out that you have to stagger your gas rings. If you're worried about those then I suggest getting the spiral wound gas ring.

What other direct impingement systems do you know of besides the AR's that have gas rings on the bolt??

Sounds to me that you suffer from this: Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

[riverwalker76]

It's also a fallacy, unless the gas system is extremely worn out that you have to stagger your gas rings. If you're worried about those then I suggest getting the spiral wound gas ring.

I'm not here to argue, but I will contradict you on this one .... I had a Colt M4 with 2k rounds down the pipe that caused me problems in Fallujah. One night in Automatic Transmission Fluid and staggering the keys fixed it.

Like I said ... I'm only offering my professional opinion. I'm not here to argue about who knows what.

Who was it that said "Battefield Ingenuity is the Mother of Invention" ... can't remember right now.

[StarMetal]

I'm not here to argue, but I will contradict you on this one .... I had a Colt M4 with 2k rounds down the pipe that caused me problems in Fallujah. One night in Automatic Transmission Fluid and staggering the keys fixed it.

Like I said ... I'm only offering my professional opinion. I'm not here to argue about who knows what.

Who was it that said "Battefield Ingenuity is the Mother of Invention" ... can't remember right now.

I have to inquire, why do you keep calling them "keys". They are gas rings. Plus all you just mentioned was cleaning them, you didn't say the problem was that you pulled the bolt apart and the gas rings slots were all lined up? You're not making sense.

[riverwalker76]

I have to inquire, why do you keep calling them "keys". They are gas rings. Plus all you just mentioned was cleaning them, you didn't say the problem was that you pulled the bolt apart and the gas rings slots were all lined up? You're not making sense.

Sorry for the confusion. I meant gas rings ... not keys.

Midnight is late for me. :wink:

[cardonasharp]

I came to the board for answers and I have more Question. now I am totally lost.

I am using a gas check cast bullet the weight is 55Gr's.

My gas system is not adjustable.
My DPMS AR15 is in perfect working order and very clean.
Bolts assembly is clean and the gas rings are staggered.
I really do not want to change the spring or buffer tube.

[StarMetal]

I came to the board for answers and I have more Question. now I am totally lost.

I am using a gas check cast bullet the weight is 55Gr's.

My gas system is not adjustable.
My DPMS AR15 is in perfect working order and very clean.
Bolts assembly is clean and the gas rings are staggered.
I really do not want to change the spring or buffer tube.

Sir you just need a stiffer load. Unless one is willing to modify a semi auto for cast , then you are stuck with non cycling. If you don't want to modify, and I suggest not on an AR15, that you use a more powerful cast load. I'm not talking about one that even comes close to factory jacketed, but one that has more power then your Unique load. Now, on the other hand, if you Unique load is extremely accurate, I suggest go on with the manual cycling of it.

Some semi autos can be modified very easily, like the SKS's for example.

Your rifle isn't cycling all the way because there isn't enough gas pressure in the Unique load to overcome the force of the buffer spring, hammer spring, and buffer and carrier/bolt weight. Now I ask you, as the other posted suggested putting a heavier 9mm buffer and stronger buffer spring going to make all those things I mentioned easier to overcome? NO. You could get one of the lightest buffers and lighter buffer spring and maybe get it to work, but if you forget to switch them out when shooting full house jacketed you may damage your rifle.

[GabbyM]

I came to the board for answers and I have more Question. now I am totally lost.

I am using a gas check cast bullet the weight is 55Gr's.

My gas system is not adjustable.
My DPMS AR15 is in perfect working order and very clean.
Bolts assembly is clean and the gas rings are staggered.
I really do not want to change the spring or buffer tube.

You just need slower powder as I stated earlier. Burn rate between 4198 to 4895. IMR 4227 is the fastest powder I've known of an AR rifle cycling at. H4895 would be a good place to start. It meters easier than the 4198 and uses quite a bit more powder so your action should work. 19.5 to 20.0 grains of 4895. With 4198 you get buy with 14.5 grains. I've been shooting 4198 and RX7 and have not tried the 4895 loads. Forget the guys shooting 16” pistol barrels. They are a different beast since the gas port is closer to the chamber.

[LowPE]

I have shot thousands of the RCBS 55 grainer, gas checked, out of my stock 20" Armalite AR15. I use AA2230 and it functions very reliably. I also use the RCBS x-die...

I tried pistol powders initially and they lacked the ooomph needed to work the action.

GabbyM is dead on right in my experience.

[JKH]

absolutely, Starmetal & Gabby are 100% correct.

I read where one poster supposedly got functioning with 9 grains of Unique, if he did in fact achieve that goal than he had to have been using a 16" carbine gas system and possibly lighter buffer and buffer spring.

I am a neophyte when it comes to cast lead in an AR15 but not a neophyte when it comes to the weapon system, I have built and owned in excess of 30 AR15 type rifles and AR10 type rifles as well as cutting my teeth on an M16A1 owned by Uncle sam's Army in the early 80's, what was poseted earlier about heavier buffer and spring, extractor, etc. is pure hoqwash and drivel!

You're DPMS is a fine rifle as is, and as Gabby has shown through experience you just need to tweak you're loads with the right powder, I know this is where I am going with my loads!
As I am cheap at heart I liked the sounds of a cycling load that only used 9 grains of Unique, that sure would be nice! However, in the realm of reality it just aint gonna happen ;^ )
Fortunately I have 8 pounds of AA2230C on hand which has made many fine jacketed loads in any AR I have used it in and will be trying that, there is a thread here specifically about cast lead in an AR with 5.56/.223 and one successful poster was using 18.5 grains AA2230, I will back off a hair and start with that.

Starmetal certainly has sage advice and I certainly concur with him, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing when not properly applied, firearms are NOT the proper venue for making irrational tweaks nilly willy, damage to the firearm and to the owner can occur quite readily and at times with irreversible results :^ O

Jeff

[brotherdarrell]

I might as well add my experiences.

dpms w/16" bull barrel carbine, rcbs 22-55gc:

8 gr. unique - will not cycle
9.5 gr. unique - will not cycle
11.5 gr 2400 - will not cycle
13 gr rx7 - will eject empty but not pickup new round
17.5 gr aa2015 - will eject empty but not pickup new round

going to try again tomorrow with 18.2 gr aa2230. I got close with the last two, unfortunately rx7 and aa2015 are running low and am saving it for my .222 m788.

brother darrell

[brotherdarrell]

add 18.2 grs aa2230 to the list of will eject empty but will not pick up new round. Did get group under 2" @ 100yds though.

brother darrell

[cardonasharp]

I have read and read. I decided not to cast for my AR15

[JIMinPHX]

I run the heavy version 225415 with the long GC shank full out @ 3K+ with H322 and H335 and get great 1 to 1.2 M.O.A results in my H&R handi ...

Alloy is Wd'ed 50/50 ww/pure + 5% NICKEL Bearing Railroad BABBIT cured for 2 weeks before firing.
...

I'll assume that you are water dropping those boolits. Do you happen to know how hard they are coming up?

[JIMinPHX]

Hi Jim

I noticed how you have these seated. I was trying to seat mine deeper - more toward the front groove. This put the gas check, as best as I could tell, about 1/2 still in the neck of the case. How did you arrive at your seating depth?

thanks

Daryl

Those are seated waaaaayyyy out far like that because my rifle has a really long throat. I seated them out until the boolit touched the rifling. My accuracy got much better after that.

I get away with seating them out that far because I only shoot them in a single shot gun. There is hardly any boolit left inside the case neck. I don't think that they would stay together if I tried them in an autoloader. Even a bolt gun would probably have trouble digesting them.

[KennethF]

Bruce Drake,

When you have found the load that works best in your rifle, and you are getting good groups, but with occasional fliers, try what Harvey Donaldson suggested in his book "Yours Truley Harvey 'Donaldson" Harvey wrote that when he would get a flier when he felt that everything was right with the cartridge, he would remove that cartridge case that produced the flyer from the rest of the cases that did produce good groups. He said that by doing this, his groups would become much smaller.

Ken.

[JKH]

I was able to try some lods using 18.5 grains AA2230C before the snow flew (and still hasnt left!), I used LEE Bator's cast from straight lino-type, checks made from .008" newspaper lith plates on a Freechex II tool and tumble lubed with 2 light coats LLA.

I was shooting for function and it was dusk so I didnt exect much for accuracy, I stuck a large maple leaf on one of my pines at 50 yards, then shot from the back of a deck chair while kneeling on the deck.

Function I am happy to say was 100% (DPMS side charging handle upper wih an Armalite 24" stainless match bull barrel, rifle length gas system), although I cant say how far the empty's would fly as I always use a brass catcher (NO WAY will I let good brass be lost!). Recoil seemed close to standard ball and the bolt locked back on the empty mag twice. Of course 2 - 5 round groups is NOT definitive for everall function and accuracy but it is promising, and as far as accuracy the one group I actually shot at the leaf (a SPOT on the leaf) was right around 1" with one cloverleaf, this just might work well I think :^ )

I just built 16" carbine for my sns friend and will snag it for some carbine testing (once the several feet of snow disapears and the temperature is not near zero, maybey May!), if I get good functioning in both rifles and can manage at least 2" groups at 100yard then I will load 500 to 1000 for some good cheap shooting and will hoard my various lots of ball ammo for more serious work.

Now the big question is this; I do have a fair amount of lino-type and could conceivably cast 50K .22 boolits with it, but, I am cheap! And aso lazy ;^ ) So I really dont want to spend a lot of time testing between air cooled and water dropped wheel weights and lino, so would I be okay just going with water dropped wheel weight alloy and save my precious Lino-type for who knos what in the future? (it is pure virgin lino and the little .22 boolits are a shiny joy to behold, but its all I have). Let me know what you guys think.

Jeff

[Moonie]

I use water dropped WW's in my AR, no leading using 18gr H4895, and like you, perfect functioning (midlength gas rather than rifle)

[JKH]

Hmmm, like the sounds of that Moonie, what type of barrel, chrome moly(sp?), chrome lined or stainless?

Also, what type of lube and what did you size the boolits to? Mine are sized at .226"

[Moonie]

Chrome moly 16" 5.56 chamber sized .225 lubed with FWFL 1-9"

[JKH]

I wonder if I can push the straight lino boolits to jacketed bullet velocities? Anyone load cast in a .223 to standard ball ammo speeds?

[JIMinPHX]

I've gone over 3,000fps with cast in a .223. With Lyman Super Moly Lube, I had no leading, but accuracy was not good at all. My boolits were either 13bnh or 23bnh, depending on heat treat. The 23 was a little better, but not much. I probably didn't have a hard enough alloy. I haven't gotten around to messing with speeds that high since my first go-round with it. At 2400fps, I can get good results with what I have now.

[GabbyM]

23 BHN is about as hard as is usable.
At some point the rifling will cut the bullet instead of deformig the rifling groves in it.

[stubshaft]

23 BHN is about as hard as is usable.
At some point the rifling will cut the bullet instead of deformig the rifling groves in it.

I have read in other threads and now this one about the mythical supposition that rifling will cut into a boolit as opposed to just displacing the metal.

If that is so where does the metal that is "cut" go? Does the boolit weigh less? Does it result in fins on the base of the boolit? Does it leave "curls" of metal in the bore?

[kbstenberg]

I am an extreme newby to casting an loading for the .223. At this point I have only cast 1 time with an older Lyman 225646 (I think) Will those tiny lube groves hold enough lube to keep the bullet from leading? I would assume they do but just wondering.
How meany of you inspect your bullets under some type of magnifying lens to detect surface flaws?
An do you weigh each bullet an separate by . 1 gr increments? It surprised me. That the first bullets i cast were almost 90% within .8 gr weight differential.
Kevin

[GabbyM]

I have read in other threads and now this one about the mythical supposition that rifling will cut into a boolit as opposed to just displacing the metal.

If that is so where does the metal that is "cut" go? Does the boolit weigh less? Does it result in fins on the base of the boolit? Does it leave "curls" of metal in the bore?

Cut is probably not the best word to use. Of course rifling won’t cut like a broach cutter.
The metal turns into fouling. Then a person can only guess what’s going on.

I’ve heat treated 22 caliber 2/6 alloy bullets. Over did the oven temp and time . They were so brittle they were breaking in the sizer. Some of them slumped from over heat on the cookie sheet. Tossed them all back in the pot so can’t say how they would have shot. They were breaking in the size die not from hardness but the stress cracks formed when they hit the water quench. Many were already in multiple pieces coming from the water.

Been making my 22’s from alloy blend of one 8 lb 2/6 ingot plus one lb of good Linotype. Air cooled. If I heat treated that I’d hold it to 420 degrees at no more than fifteen minutes.
Pretty sure the resulting bullets would fragment on impact with rabbit sized game. You can get little 22s to blow up and fragment while the same alloy in a 30 caliber would just act like a FMJ bullet.

Half WW half Lino makes nice 22s.

[stubshaft]

Thanks for your clarification of what you meant. The reason I questioned it was not meant as an attack on you, but because I have heat treated monotype in excess of 38bhn and did not experience the crystallization that you described.

[JIMinPHX]

23 BHN is about as hard as is usable.


I disagree. I've gone over 30 bnh with very good results on some top end .44mag loads.

[GabbyM]

I disagree. I've gone over 30 bnh with very good results on some top end .44mag loads.

yes but we are shooitng 22's in this thread.

I heat treat 2/6 alloy for my 243 and 270 boolits. However for reasons posted above I gave up on that for 22’s. no more material than a 22 bullet has in it it’s less trouble to just use the high price alloy up to straight linotype.

That batch of bullets I over heated. The phone rang. Was about 2,500 bullets on two cookie sheets. Had taken a while to cast those up. Those bullets would have shot just fine air cooled. With the Lyman #225646 I’m shooting now it helps a lot to use a rich alloy to get the thin nose groves filled out with no rejects. Not sure how hard a mix of 8lb 2/6 with 1lb 4/12 (lino) would be. It’s about 2.5%tin 7.5% antimony. IMHO that’s harder than you have to be to shoot in a 223.

[JIMinPHX]

I'm a little thin on understanding you logic as to why a .22 would not need to be as hard as a .44. Could you please try to explain that to me?

Thanks,
Jim

[felix]

Jim, Gabby's results are correct. These small boolits heat-treat on their own dropping from the mold into thin air. This is because they are especially hot from the mold (casting fast) and there is little mass to hold the heat when they are dropped. Typically, water is not needed for the faster-than-normal cooling required to harden a boolit. Real lino (no slush stage) will not heat treat anyway, water or not. Dirty up lino just a little, then all bets are off. An excessive antimony ratio will cause a fragmentation upon cooling too rapidly. ... felix

[JIMinPHX]

These small boolits heat-treat on their own dropping from the mold into thin air.

That's not what I'm seeing here. I cast some Bators last night. Some I water dropped. Others I air cooled. I just tested two of them. They came up around 21 & 13bnh respectively.

My alloy was similar to WW + 1% tin. Perhaps with Lino, it's different, but .22s cast from my alloy, with the pot around 800F certainly do seem to change hardness when water dropped. The ambient temperature was 57F.

[GabbyM]

Jim the only 22 bullets I made from WW + tin I also heat treated. How hard they were I can only guess.

My belief is if the bullet isn’t slumping upon firing it’s hard enough in a 22.
Doesn’t seam to be much issue with stripping the rifling as there are low forces needed to spin them up. Also the small diameter of the gas check makes it very durable. That surely is helping but one can only guess.

With a fat pistol bullet and even 30 caliber rifle when you heat treat you get hard on the outside with less to zero heat treat towards the center. Leaving you with a tough bullet. With 22’s they are going to get brittle all the way through. With 116 bullets per pound of alloy heat treating scrap metal gets to be a lot of work over just using foundry alloy.

Have to cast up some more Lyman #225646 pretty soon. Since I let a fellow talk me out of all I had cast up. I’ll heat treat a few at 420* for 15 minutes > water quench or maybe just try water dropping them and cast some up from straight Linotype air cooled. Take my loading kit to the range then see what happens. Run the air cooled bullets up until accuracy falls of then load the harder bullets over that powder charge to see if it helps or hurts. Try them all with a load that shoots well to check for smallest groups. That should take all day. I think all the difference will be is the hard bullets will fragment upon impact as a little 58 grain piece of lead that’s brittle can’t take all that energy hitting it. That could be useful though.

[felix]

Glad you measured them, Jim. I would have though they would be closer, like they MIGHT be around here with the 100 percent air humidity (dew conditions at night). Save the samples and see what the measurements are a week or two from now, please. ... felix

[camaro1st]

i have a 16" ss barrel carbine lenth, standard spring and buffer ar-15 with 200 +or- a few rounds through it. i am water dropping my bator cast boolits, with gas checks. I am getting good cycling with 21grs of imr4064. i started low and worked up on a load. manual cycling and checking for any signs of pressure problems then it was cycling on its own. no leading and 5rd group at 1.5" off hand@50yrds. Dont know how fast they are flying but i can't see them.

[JIMinPHX]

Camaro1st, do you have the old style Bator or the new one? What COAL are you loading to? What lead alloy are you using?

Thanks,
Jim

[leadman]

I have shot lino bullets in the 223 and 22 K-Hornet at 3,000 fps. As Jim said the accuracy is not as good as around 2,300 to 2,700 fps, depending on powder and cartridge.
The 22 K-Hornet does better at 2,700 fps than the 223. I think it might be the amount of powder needed to get equal velocities or the 3" longer barrel on the 223.
Lino shoots much better than bullets that are water dropped or heat treated to try to get equal hardness.

[camaro1st]

the new style bator, alloy is water dropped ww. col is 2.035 any longer and against the rifling.

Camaro1st, do you have the old style Bator or the new one? What COAL are you loading to? What lead alloy are you using?

Thanks,
Jim

[JIMinPHX]

Save the samples and see what the measurements are a week or two from now, please. ... felix

Felix, I have plenty of samples. I'll try to remember to check 2 of them again next week. If I forget, please remind me.

Thanks,
Jim

Camaro, thanks for the info.

[felix]

Jim, my memory is worse than yours, I bet! If the spread of hardness remains the same, then, for sure, water dropping does still work as intended even with that small of a boolit. Hopefully, your test allowed each air dropped boolit remain all alone (i.e., not in a pile where neighborhood heat would have an effect in slowing the intended reaction of each.). ... felix

[badbob454]

i have a 16" ss barrel carbine lenth, standard spring and buffer ar-15 with 200 +or- a few rounds through it. i am water dropping my bator cast boolits, with gas checks. I am getting good cycling with 21grs of imr4064. i started low and worked up on a load. manual cycling and checking for any signs of pressure problems then it was cycling on its own. no leading and 5rd group at 1.5" off hand@50yrds. Dont know how fast they are flying but i can't see them.

probably @ 2250-2300 fps with the bator and 21 gr of 4064 a guestimate looking at imr powder listings

[JIMinPHX]

Hopefully, your test allowed each air dropped boolit remain all alone (i.e., not in a pile where neighborhood heat would have an effect in slowing the intended reaction of each.). ... felix

Actually, I drop my "air cooled" boolits into a cardboard box that has an old shirt in it for padding. That does slow down the cooling a little. I do still have my early rejects from the first few pours, before the mold started throwing good boolits. Those were just dumped on the bench, out in the open air. They have some wrinkles in them, so they were a little cool to begin with, but they did cool in open air. I can check them too.

[CWME]

Guess I will wade in with my latest tries with 223 on the AR-15 platform. Goal was 100% function/feed from the mag.

20" "full size" Colt 1-7 H-bar barrel.
Saeco 221 60Gr boolit, WW air cooled with Lyman Orange Magic lube, Hornady GC. (PITA by the way, have to aneal GC to get them on)

Started with 18 GR H 4895 and went to 19.5 GR. 19 GR Gave 90% function of bolt. 19.5 GR gave me 100% reliable function.

Testing in my shop at about 10 yards offhand into my bullet trap. Shot out the 3/4" bull of the test target. No idea as to velocity or longer range accuracy. This was a function test only but looks like it has promise.

No leading aparent in the barrel.

[JIMinPHX]

Orange Magic worked well for me as a short range pistol lube, but when I used it on rifle boolits at longer ranges, my accuracy was not the best. Changing to Carnuba Red or Lyman Super Moly shrunk my groups by about 50%. I don't know, but I suspect that some of the Orange Magic comes off during flight, but not all of it, & that makes the boolit unbalanced. That's just a guess though.

[PatMarlin]

Bruce Drake,

When you have found the load that works best in your rifle, and you are getting good groups, but with occasional fliers, try what Harvey Donaldson suggested in his book "Yours Truley Harvey 'Donaldson" Harvey wrote that when he would get a flier when he felt that everything was right with the cartridge, he would remove that cartridge case that produced the flyer from the rest of the cases that did produce good groups. He said that by doing this, his groups would become much smaller.

Ken.

You know why? A good reason could be the (ID) diameter of the primer pocket. I read on how primer pockets- not cleaning, but uniformity in the ID effecting accuracy. Not talked much about at CB.,

I've been wanting to start a thread on it.

[GabbyM]

Yes get some LARS carnauba red or some other lube of better quality IMHO.

Most of all. Saeco put out a bunch of off spec 223 moulds a couple years ago. I have one I’ve not sent back. They had short gas check shanks. In a 22 rifle mould gas checks should push on when using Linotype alloy. Or at least 2/6 alloy. Softer alloys will make smaller diameter bullets so checks should fit easier. You may want to give Saeco a call. 22 bullets are a challenge to be sure and for the mould manufactures they are a real test.

My preference for a 22 bullet mould is a Lyman due to the steel they use for there moulds.
Cast iron blocks just do not have the precision surface finish and erode after use to make a larger bullet. With 22’s that is an issue that does not come into play with larger bullets. Aluminum and brass is good also.

[GabbyM]

You know why? A good reason could be the (ID) diameter of the primer pocket. I read on how primer pockets- not cleaning, but uniformity in the ID effecting accuracy. Not talked much about at CB.,

I've been wanting to start a thread on it.

One of the first tools you need IMHO for accuracy in a rifle is a primer pocket uniformer. I buy the carbide tools from Sinclair. Then a flash hole deburr tool. Which is a No. 1 center drill for US brass.

For military brass I’ve an RCBS tool with the point of it’s #1 C drill ground short. I run that in the flash hole from the top before attempting to de prime. This removes the common burr from punched flash holes and almost prevents broken de cap pins when de priming military brass. Reason for grinding the #1 C-drill off short is so it does not hit the primer anvil or bugger up the flash hole. You just need enough deburr to prevent the decap pin from being deflected from the flash hole. Or bringing a burr into the flash hole with the pin. Both issues will break your de cap pin.

Since this is a 223 or 5.56mm NATO thread I stuck this in.
Salvaged Mil brass needs some work to get it ready to shoot.

[JIMinPHX]

My preference for a 22 bullet mould is a Lyman due to the steel they use for there moulds.
Cast iron blocks just do not have the precision surface finish and erode after use to make a larger bullet. With 22’s that is an issue that does not come into play with larger bullets. Aluminum and brass is good also.

This is the first time that I've seen this opinion posted. Could you please expand on that a little? I'm interested in finding out more details on that subject. I had always thought that cast iron was a good material to use. I have also been told by some people that Lyman molds are made from a high quality grade of cast iron. Others have said that they are made out of leadloy. If you know which metal Lyman actually uses, please fill me in on that too.

Thanks,
Jim

[GabbyM]

This is the first time that I've seen this opinion posted. Could you please expand on that a little? I'm interested in finding out more details on that subject. I had always thought that cast iron was a good material to use. I have also been told by some people that Lyman molds are made from a high quality grade of cast iron. Others have said that they are made out of leadloy. If you know which metal Lyman actually uses, please fill me in on that too.

Thanks,
Jim

Not sure what the exact alloy of a Lyman mould block is. When you cut them you get fairly long chips with a little curl. Blue color. Saeco uses cast iron that machines into crumbled pieces almost as small as gray cast iron. I’ve a lot of Saeco moulds running in a casting machine. The bullets all grow over time. All these moulds were purchased within the last three years. It’s highly possible the iron saeco uses of late is of lesser quality that in the past.

With my Saeco #223 mould I was getting usable bullets for about the first 2,000. Then the shoulder of the check shank eroded and the shank diameter enlarged. Now a gas check will not fit all the way on the shank before hitting the shoulder and you can hardly get them on the fat shank anyway. I’ve tossed that mould in a box with a couple other Saeco moulds. The corners crumbled because the cavities were either cut with dull tooling or to hard of a feed rate. In other words the surface finish was not good enough for a casting mould. As long as employers think just any monkey off the street can run a CNC machine we’ll see this level of work.

Take a look at the Lyman 225646 with those thin groves in the nose. You’d be hard pressed to get that feature machined in the cast alloy Saeco uses. I’m not out to totally trash Saeco. I’ve a lot of there moulds making nice bullets. But there again. One of my most used ones is a #068 SWC 45 ACP bullet. It started life dropping bullets just shy of .452”. I used a C punch to peen dimples on the mould face to Beagle it out a bit. Those dimples are gone now and the bullets come out round and over .453”. I don’t have records but that mould has probably dropped 100,000 bullets. It has a nice blue shinny finish now and is probably stabilized. The bevel base has shrunk from original and is small now. However it’s concentric. I’ve a couple bull’s-eye shooters running them who can shoot one hole groups under 2” at fifty yards. I’ve a set of eight magma #68 moulds but still run that single Saeco as it makes superior bullets. That’s a secret so don’t tell anyone OK.

I’ve a few H&G mould that are cut from a cast iron alloy. They are nice and smooth like one would wish for. I’ve never cut on an H&G mould.

Anyway that’s my personal experience with the moulds. BTW I’ve machined hundreds of thousands of tons worth of cast iron parts from assorted alloys.

For 22’s I’d just stick with Lyman ,RCBS or one of the custom shops. Saeco can make a good one if they’d just do it. Lyman and RCBS are easier to return product to also.

Saeco put out a bunch of these #223 moulds with fat short check shanks. One of our members from Kansas bought one in four cavity after he shot some #223’s I swapped him for. He returned it for a good one and they told him over the phone they’d had a run go out like that. I should return mine but it’s been two or three years.

[JIMinPHX]

Gabby, I'm sorry to hear that you had a run of bad luck with Saeco. I always thought that they had a good reputation.

If you ever get to thinking that you might want to trash that mold, send it my way instead. I've been kind of wondering what kind of performance I could get from a plain base boolit in a .223 & a mold with an eroded GC shank would be a perfect candidate for getting reamed out to plain base.

Thanks for responding to my question.

Jim

[camaro1st]

jim if you get that mold from gabby would you let me know how the plain base works out? i have been wondering myself.

[stubshaft]

Lyman claims its blocks are made of a special formula malleable cast iron.

[camaro1st]

jim those are very nice looking boolits (jealous here) have you tried hollowing out any of the new style bators?

[PatMarlin]

Why is the Remington called a 222, and the Remignton 223 called the 223 when both calibers are 22cal-.224?

[JIMinPHX]

jim if you get that mold from gabby would you let me know how the plain base works out? i have been wondering myself.

Anytime that I do something interesting like that, I almost always post my results here. Even if I don't get that mold from Gabby, I may try the same thing with a few cavities in the new Bator that I just got.


have you tried hollowing out any of the new style bators?

I haven't tried that yet, only because I haven't tried to do anything with the Bator that would be likely to benefit from a hollow point.

I'll try to remember to do a few when I get back into the shop again, just for the heck of it.

[Flash]

Why is the Remington called a 222, and the Remignton 223 called the 223 when both calibers are 22cal-.224?

The 222 Remington started life as a sporting round and Remington tried to position themselves for supplying a round to the Military with the 222 Remington magnum. The military tested the mag in the 700BDL back in the late 50's but sent it back to Remingtom for improvements hence, the 223 which is a hair under the 222 mag by being shorter and lighter. I guess when you're dealing with millions of rounds of ammunition, saving space and weight is a good thing. The designation of 223 over 222 mag had to be made otherwise, it would appeared as the same thing. I guess there were too many rounds on the market which had the 22 prefix so Remington came out with one better, the 222.

[PatMarlin]

I see- interesting. 222 version 2.

[Flash]

Some of the short action BDL rifles have cut-outs in the rear receiver ring for stripper clips. These were used up as commercial guns after the military stayed with the 06' as a sniper round. These BDL guns command a premium when they have the cut-outs and are in good condition.

[JIMinPHX]

That's not what I'm seeing here. I cast some Bators last night. Some I water dropped. Others I air cooled. I just tested two of them. They came up around 21 & 13bnh respectively.

My alloy was similar to WW + 1% tin. Perhaps with Lino, it's different, but .22s cast from my alloy, with the pot around 800F certainly do seem to change hardness when water dropped. The ambient temperature was 57F.



Glad you measured them, Jim. I would have though they would be closer, like they MIGHT be around here with the 100 percent air humidity (dew conditions at night). Save the samples and see what the measurements are a week or two from now, please. ... felix

I just tested 2 each from the WD batch & the AC batch. They came up about 27 & 13bnh respectively.

My "air cooled" boolits are actually dropped from a gloved hand into a cardboard box with an old shirt & a bunch of other boolits in it, so my AC might actually be a little slower to cool than other people's AC boolits.

[felix]

Thanks, Jim! I am surprised to say the least. Obviously, the water maintains the rapid-enough temp drop to include the center line of the boolit. Did you measure the sides, or measure the center? ... felix

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I see- interesting. 222 version 2.


The 222 came out in 1950

[JIMinPHX]

Did you measure the sides, or measure the center? ... felix

I measured the meplat. The boolit was standing straight up & the penetrator went in from the top.

Let me know if you would like me to measure somewhere else & I'll include that next time as a separate reading.

[PatMarlin]

I'm working on my own...

The 223 Patmarlin. 223 PM for short ....:mrgreen:

You can remember me when I'm famous. :bigsmyl2:

[rhbrink]

I'm working on my own...

The 223 Patmarlin. 223 PM for short ....:mrgreen:

You can remember me when I'm famous. :bigsmyl2:

Are going to show us a picture of the 223 PM in the "Show Us Your Wildcat" thread?

[PatMarlin]

I got a drawing, but then I need to build it. May take another 2 years ...LOL

Then I've got to see if it actually will work- to spare future embarrassment ...:mrgreen:

[JIMinPHX]

2/11/11
That's not what I'm seeing here. I cast some Bators last night. Some I water dropped. Others I air cooled. I just tested two of them. They came up around 21 & 13bnh respectively.

My alloy was similar to WW + 1% tin. Perhaps with Lino, it's different, but .22s cast from my alloy, with the pot around 800F certainly do seem to change hardness when water dropped. The ambient temperature was 57F.



Glad you measured them, Jim. I would have though they would be closer, like they MIGHT be around here with the 100 percent air humidity (dew conditions at night). Save the samples and see what the measurements are a week or two from now, please. ... felix


2/20/11
I just tested 2 each from the WD batch & the AC batch. They came up about 27 & 13bnh respectively.

My "air cooled" boolits are actually dropped from a gloved hand into a cardboard box with an old shirt & a bunch of other boolits in it, so my AC might actually be a little slower to cool than other people's AC boolits.

2/26/11 Today's results were 27 & 14.

[felix]

Thanks, Jim, for keeping up with this. It goes to show that lead retains heat much, much longer than I thought, even for the very smallest boolit we would use. ... felix

[JIMinPHX]

The fact that what was 13 is now turning to 14 also lends credence to what you expected to see. The air cooled boolits are starting to harden up a little. They just took a while to start that process. I tested 3 of the air cooled boolits yesterday & all 3 came out the same. It wasn't just 1 that cooled a little quicker. They were all 14 bnh. I'll watch to see if they continue to get harder or not.

[JIMinPHX]

2/11/11 came up around 21 & 13bnh respectively.

2/20/11 came up about 27 & 13bnh respectively.

2/26/11 results were 27 & 14.

3/11/11 results were 24 & 14

[felix]

Thanks, Jim, and keep it going. It's surprising to see the quenched boolits get softer so soon. I, too, wonder now how long the downward trend will continue. ... felix

[morme@gte.net]

I just loaded up 240 rnds of various loads (20 each of 8 different loads) to see how they work in my 1:7 twist AR.

Using a Hornady OAL case length gauge, the Bator seats so that only .148" protrudes from the case. This is for my Compass Lake Engineering barrel (they make the barrels for the Military shooting teams, and some other special purpose military rifles). The throat is shorter than the 5.56 NATO cambering.

As you can see in the pix, the 5.56 has a .100 longer throat than the CLE barrel. Compass Lake tells me that their barrel will handle NATO military loads just fine. The bullets were pushed hard up against the lands.

It will be interesting to see if they feed from the magazine properly, and if they cycle the action.

I just ordered a single shot sled in case the accurate loads don't cycle. Next on the list is an adjustable gas tube so I can turn the gas off (again, if the accurate loads don't cycle well). That way, I won't get any short cycles, and it truly becomes a single shot.

I am hoping for an inexpensive "plinking" load that cycles reliably. I may have more luck in one of the 5.56 chambered rifles. The CLE barrel has an 18" barrel, but a rifle length gas system. I (with assistance from Compass Lake) opened the gas port to .106 (I used a carbide reamer from McMaster). The larger gas port makes my rifle load more reliably. The carbines have a longer gas port to barrel crown length, so they have a "longer" gas pulse, and may feed these rounds more reliably.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_109504d7d2d4a95d7e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=198)


I use the 55gr LEE Bator Mold in my 223 Rem chambered AR15. This weekend, I found I had to seat the boolit deeper than my standard 55gr spitzer due to that nice rounded meplat on the boolit was engaging the rifling and not letting the bolt seat properly. Nice accuracy out to 100 yards so far. no recoil to speak of at 9gr of Unique and ejects the case cleanly. More information when I can get to the range again.

Bruce

[url=http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=197]

[morme@gte.net]

You have a really long throat. I have 3 ARs, I measured 2

My CLE barrel needs a Bator loaded to 1.189 COAL
My 5.56 M4 profile needs it loaded to 2.002 COAL

These were measured with a Hornady/Stoney Point Case Length Gauge.

pix were posted in another post


the new style bator, alloy is water dropped ww. col is 2.035 any longer and against the rifling.

[morme@gte.net]

I routinely pull a boresnake with the front end soaked with Hoppes #9 through my barrels while shooting. Sometimes as often as every 10 rounds. Read the CLE instructions for breaking in their barrels

http://compasslake.com/instructions.htm


Everything that spins has an rpm limit.

Anybody besides me make note of that?

And after all this time of trying to convince me otherwise:-)

Larry Gibson

I only buy into the rpm theories that anything done faster, no matter just about what it is, is harder to do than at a slower pace.

BTW Joe; that's exactly what the RPM threshold is about. It's that point where the "harder" begins. Nice to see you finally agree with me whether you realise it or not.

[Flash]

The 222 came out in 1950

The 223 began the experimental life in 1957, completed in 1959

The 222 mag came out in 1958

This is not entirely correct. The 222 mag predates the 223. The 222 mag was refused by the military in 1958 as a rifle round and was sent back to Remington to be shortened and lightened, hence the 223. The 223 was introduced in 1963

[JKH]

anyone use straight lino-type to cast .22's for AR15 use? Particularly LEE Bator's?
I have some promising looking loads with air cooled wheel weights & want to try pushing them faster, so have cast 1000 from virgin lino. Using these boolits what are the odds they could be loaded to starting velocity ball ammo speeds?

I am using AA2230C, rifle has an Armalite 24" (T) stainless math bill barrel, awesome shooter!

[JIMinPHX]

anyone use straight lino-type to cast .22's for AR15 use? Particularly LEE Bator's?
I have some promising looking loads with air cooled wheel weights & want to try pushing them faster, so have cast 1000 from virgin lino. Using these boolits what are the odds they could be loaded to starting velocity ball ammo speeds?

I am using AA2230C, rifle has an Armalite 24" (T) stainless math bill barrel, awesome shooter!

I believe that Leadman loads straight Lino. He may have some info for you on that.

I've pushed an alloy that's pretty close to wheel weights + 2% tin up over 3,000fps with no leading, but poor accuracy out of a .223.

I think that what you want to do is possible, but it might take some serious tuning to get it to perform well.

[Larry Gibson]

morme@gte.net

Nice thing about the .222 is most all of them had/have 14" twists. Thus with well cast bullets of the correct alloy upwards of 2400 fps is still "easy" as they are still under the RPM threshold. It's the 2500 - 2600+ fps range where the "hard" begins.

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

I keep hearing Larry tout the virtues of keeping your RPMs below their limit. One of these days, when I get the time, I'm going to have to set up some tests & see what I can learn about the things that he keeps preaching. He seems fairly convinced of what he says & he seems to have a fairly extensive background, so his opinions are hard to just dismiss, even when I find them to be counter intuitive. Some day I'm just going to have to invest the time so that I can come to understand the nuts & bolts of what he is saying. Right now, I'm still a little foggy on the subject.

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

When ever you find the time to invest let me know if I can assist in any way. I've run tests with 12, 14 and 16" twist .22 Hornets. I've ran tests with 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 and 14" twist .223s. I've run tests with 9 and 14' twist 22-250s, I've run tests with 10 and 12" twist .244/6mms. I've run tests with 7.9, 8, 9 and 10" twist 6.5s. I've run tests with 10 and 12" twist 30-30s. I've run tests with 10, 12 and 14" twist .308Ws and I've ran tests with 10 and 12" twist '06s. The results are all the same; the slower the twist the easier it is to maintain consistent accuracy at higher velocity.

Regardless of the twist in all the tests above the accuracy loss started at close to the same RPM level. That same RPM level is where just about every other cartridge generally loses accuracy also, regardless of the twist. Remember here that RPM is governed by the velocity and the twist so the faster the twist the lower the velocity will be for a given RPM. Again I will emphasise that i am talking about a threshold that may be lower or it may be higher depending on the variable associated with cast bullets, their designs, alloys, powders used etc. It is not a limit.

Again Jim, I'll be glad to assist any way I can.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

It is not a limit.

Larry Gibson


Thats about the only thing you say about it that I agree with. Accuracy, or the lack of it, depends entirely on what you choose to do and how you go about doing it. Bad choices = Bad Results.

[PatMarlin]

Here we go ...

Where's BA John? ...:mrgreen:

[Larry Gibson]

Nice to know 45 2.1 finally understands that:shock:

That's all I have to say about that.

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

Larry, do you notice that the RPM limit varies with caliber, or do boolits of all diameters work to a similar limit in your experiance?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, do you notice that the RPM limit varies with caliber, or do boolits of all diameters work to a similar limit in your experiance?

Jim

Let me just touch on semantics a bit since you mention "limit". The RPM threshold is not a limit. It is a threshold, it can be bumped up with advanced loading techniques and cast bullet designs. It also can be lowered by poor casting and loading techniques and improper alloys. For the normal run of the mill regular type cast bullet of medium caliber ( around 26 to .33 cals) and pushed with powders from 2400 up through 4350 the threshold hovers between 120,000 and 140,000 RPM. For example; a well cast 150 - 200 gr GC'd cast bullet with a bore riding nose pushed by 4895 in a 10" twist '06 will give its best accuracy in the 1850 -1950 fps range. 1950 fps is pushing the 140,000 RPM. Above that accuracy begins to go, perhaps not greatly at first but it is still going. At 2200 fps it is gone and the group dispersion as range increases will be non linear. You can push that bullet to 2200 fps if you pay attention to details and use a much slower burning powder. Above that and accuracy can and will go quickly. Thus the RPM threshold is just that, a threshold that may be pushed, lowered , crossed or what ever one wants to call it. It is however, not a "limit".

Now to answer the thrux of your question; Yes, I do find it caliber dependent. The smaller the caliber the lower the threshold and the harder it is to push the threshold to a higher fps/RPM level. This is because a defect that destroys accuracy in a small calibe r cast bullet like .224 up through .268 will have little effect on a larger bullet, especially those of .35 cal or larger. Additional the larger bores of .35 cal and above, usually have slower twists to begin with. They are ften at max fps with cast or jacketed before the RPM threshold is reached. Some aren't, like my M70 .375 H&H with it's 12" twist. Many don't want to push a 250 -300 cast bullet to it's RPM threshold at 2350+ fps. The 45-70 is another one; you aren't going to push the normal 300 - 550 gr cast bullets fast enough to get to the RPM threshold with their 18 - 22" twists.

On the other end of the scale look at all the trouble most everyone has with the 6.5 Swede with its 7.9" twist and it's RPM threshold around 1550 fps. Then throw in the .223s with 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 and 14" twist and you get the picture. The RPM threshold there is around 1500 fps with the 7" twist, 1750 fps with the 9" twist, 2200 fps with the 12" twist and 2600+ fps with the 14" twist. The .22 Hornet is in the same boat with its 12, 14 and 16" twists. I've definately found that hitting 140,000 RPM with with the slower twist makes accuracy difficult with the small bores, especially the .22 CFs. I However in .30 cal it is not difficult at all with a 14" twist .308W. I regularly shoot a 311466 at 2600+ fps out of my 27" barreled Palma rifle with 1.5 moa accuracy (consistent 10 shot groups) out to 300 yards. That still is not 140,000 RPM though but is very close at 133,000+ RPM. I'm planning on a 30" barreld '06 with a 14" twist or perhaps even a 16" twist to try for such consistent accuracy at 2700 or perhaps 2800 fps in the future......

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

Do you notice that Greenfield holds true? Does what you say in conjunction with Greenfield mean that the highest velocities for accuracy can only be achieved with short boolits because of the slow twist that you need to use to get high velocity?

[Larry Gibson]

Jim

Assuming you mean Greenhill as in the formula for computing twists needed(?). The formula generally holds true but there are variables with it. However, there are degrees of stabilization which are generally accepted as over stabilized, stabilized and under stabilized. All are stabilized and will fly point forward but the stabilized bullet will fly more efficiently. Note I said efficiently and not accurately. More accurately will happen only based on the qulaity of the bullets. We should not confuse stability with accuracy. However the two do go hand in hand given equal quality bullets. Given equal quality bullets a stabilzed bullet will be more accurate than either the over or under stabilized bullets. Twist and velocity being the deciding factors there.

Short cast bullets with little or no bore riding noses are most often the most accurate at high velocity/high RPM. Simply because there is less bullet "riding" (basically unsupported in the bore and/or grooves) to obturate unevenly, slump to one side or otherwise become unbalanced during accelleration in the barrel. These same short cast bullets also do better in accuracy at high velcoity in slower twist rilfes because the accelleration to 2600 fps in a 26"+ barrel is still a lot more severe, regardless of twist, than accelleration to 1800 fps in the same length barrel. Fore example; you will, more than likely, get better accuracy at a higher velocity in the same twist with a 225462 than with a 225415. The reason being the shorter bearing surface and longer nose of the 225415 lend itself to being more unbalanced during accelleration than does the 225462, even though the 225462 is heavier and longer.

In the Palma rifle I still get very good accuracy with the 311041 at 2400 fps that is only obtainable at 2200 fps in a 12" twist and at 1950 fps in a 10" twist. And at 2400 fps the 311041 is still quite stable out of the 14" twist to 300 yards anyways. The shorter 311466 with no nose to speak of still does much better upwards of 2600+ fps in the 14" twist. That is why you see me generally refer to "regular cast bullets" in my writings on the RPM threshold. By that I mean the common cast bullet with a bore riding nose. That is the bullet that will hit it's RPM threshold first.

Let me point out that the RPM threshold is not about the bullet losing stability (flying point forward). The RPM threshold is about when the centrifugal force, caused by unbalances in the bullet, over comes the rotational stability of the bullet making it's flight path a spiraled one with non linear dispersion as the range increases. For the regular cast bullet this occurs in the 120,000 to 140,000 RPM range.

Larry Gibson

[JKH]

Larry,

First let me say that I admire and respect men (and women as well) that have the ability to perform higher mathmatics and especially make it sound so easy, your explanations are very clear, I wish I had the knowledge of math to flly appreciate them.

Okay, being that a shorter boolit with little or no bore riding nose will tend to hold accuracy better at higher RPM thresholds, how would you say the LEE Bator boolit would fare at higher velocities in an AR15 barrel having a 1:8 twist rate? Also, how would that sme boolit fare given the use of lino-type alloy verses say #2 or water cooled wheel weight alloy?

I have been shooting some loads using WW alloy boolits that function the rifle properly and what few I have shot seem to have good accuracy (I need to get on a bench though and spend some quality time punching holes), however I would like to load .223/5.56 using cast boolits to at least starting velocities for standard 55 grain ball ammo and of course want decent accuracy too ;^ ) Do you think this may be achieveable with the Bator as described above?

Thanks

Jeff

[morme@gte.net]

What loads are you using for the Bator in your 1:8 rifle that cycle the action properly?

for me,
21gn 4064 cycled 9 out of 10 shots
15gn 4198 short cycled. the case was ejected, but a new round was not picked up. I manually loaded each round

I also tried
7.5gn Trail Boss (full case, no compression)
9.0 Blue Dot
9.0 Red Dot
10.5 2400

I used the powders on my shelf.




Larry,


I have been shooting some loads using WW alloy boolits that function the rifle properly and what few I have shot seem to have good accuracy (I need to get on a bench though and spend some quality time punching holes), however I would like to load .223/5.56 using cast boolits to at least starting velocities for standard 55 grain ball ammo and of course want decent accuracy too ;^ ) Do you think this may be achieveable with the Bator as described above?

Thanks

Jeff

[Larry Gibson]

Jeff

Okay, being that a shorter boolit with little or no bore riding nose will tend to hold accuracy better at higher RPM thresholds, how would you say the LEE Bator boolit would fare at higher velocities in an AR15 barrel having a 1:8 twist rate?

It's going to fair a little better than with a 7" twist....how's that for a "non-answer":) I do not have any 1st hand experience with the Bator but would expect it to perfom as well as any. Most of my .223 cast bullet experience in ARs is with 7, 9 and 12" twists. I do have some limited experience with 225462 in an "over the course" match AR with 8" twist. i was attempting to develop a load for 200 yard reduced NMC that would hold 2 moa and function reliably. Best accuracy (1.5 moa for 20 shots!) was down around 1500 fps but reliable functioning was non exhistant. At around 1800 fps functioning was reliable but accuracy was only M193 equivelent (around 2 -3 moa at 200 yards). That is pushing 162,000 RPM. On advise of another forum member who claimed "good" accuracy at 2800 - 2900 fps from his 7" twist AR I pushed velocities up to 2900 fps. At 200 yards at 2400 fps about half of the shots held inside the 7 ring on an SR200 yard target. At 2900 fps only 7 of 20 shots hit on the entire target frame. The same loads were shooting roughly 5 - 6 moa at 100 yards. We can readlily see the non linear expansion of the group size from 100 to 200 yards.

So how do I think you will fair? If you cast and load correctly loads in the 1800 -2000 fps range you may equal M193 ball type accuracy, at least out to 100 yards. You may do a little better, you may do worse as there are variables of alloy, powder, accuracy of the rifle, your shooting ability, etc. involved. Just remember, at 2000 fps with that 8" twist you are pushing 180,000 RPM so you better load 'em right.

Also, how would that sme boolit fare given the use of lino-type alloy verses say #2 or water cooled awheel weight lloy?

Many years back I gave up on straight linotype for the small bullets. The reason being I had really high hopes for them in the .22 Hornet (16" twist) and the .223 (12" twist) pushing cast to 2500 - 2600 fps. I was unable to get wthe accuracy wanted with either twist above 2000 fps with linotype alloy. I then recovered some of the bullets (225415 and 225438) that had been shot into snow. Close inspection showed the linotype was chipping away behind the rifling on some of the driving bands. The loss of even a bit of alloy from one side will greatly unbalance such a small bullet.

I switched to 60/40, 70/30 and 80/20 linotype lead alloys and began imediately to have success with both cartridges. with excellent loads in the 22 Hornet in the 2500+ fps range and in the .223 in the 2200 + fps range. In a 14" twist .223 I was able to push to 2400+ fps with the same accuracy. The reason being is that "hard" by BHN alone is only half of the equation. The other half of "hard" is a malleable alloy. Linotype is to heavy in antimony and is brittle. WQ'd WW + 2% tin also works for me up though 2100 - 2200 fps.

I have been shooting some loads using WW alloy boolits that function the rifle properly and what few I have shot seem to have good accuracy (I need to get on a bench though and spend some quality time punching holes), however I would like to load .223/5.56 using cast boolits to at least starting velocities for standard 55 grain ball ammo and of course want decent accuracy too ;^ ) Do you think this may be achieveable with the Bator as described above?

Starting velocities with ball type ammo and that accuracy? If you mean upwards of 2700 - 2800 fps then, in my experience, I would have to say the chances are slim to none with slim being gone. However, if you do everything right, you may get acceptable foreign made ball type accuracy at least to 100 yards perhaps a bit over 2000 fps. Some may claim otherwise and I say more power to them but with what I've learned and experienced (I've tried very, very hard to get accuracy at high velocity with the .223 and several other cartridges) it's just not in the cards with cast bullets.:(

Now if your AR had a 24" barrel with a 14" twist we might get somewhere........

Larry Gibson

[JIMinPHX]

Let me point out that the RPM threshold is not about the bullet losing stability (flying point forward). The RPM threshold is about when the centrifugal force, caused by unbalances in the bullet, over comes the rotational stability of the bullet making it's flight path a spiraled one with non linear dispersion as the range increases. For the regular cast bullet this occurs in the 120,000 to 140,000 RPM range.

Larry Gibson


That's why I had asked you before if you saw the threshold being diameter dependent. A lot of forces on a rotating body are square factors, while others are linear. Doubling a diameter would give 4 x to the square forces & 2 x to the linear forces.

I think that I have picked your brain enough for now. I have enough things to look into to keep me busy for more than a month.

I have a Bator mold that came from the current off-spec batch that I've been using as a cut up mold. I've altered it to produce several different boolit base geometries, including plain base. Once I finish my tests with the different Bator varieties, I'm going to put your RPM theories on my to-test list. I'll be testing your suggestions on whichever version of the Bator shows the most promise in my earlier experiments.

Thank you for taking the time to spell it all out for me.

Jim

[JIMinPHX]

What loads are you using for the Bator in your 1:8 rifle that cycle the action properly?


I'm not an AR guy, so please forgive me if this is a stupid question. Can't you adjust some kind of gas bushing or gas tube position or something to get those things to cycle with reduced loads?

[JKH]

morme@gte.net,
I am using 18.5 grains AA2230C (surplus canister powder, sightly slower than AA2230, same load data), CCI small rifle primers & various brass from commercial to steel.
My At has an Armalite M15(T) 24" bill barrel. Function so far is 100% with bolt lock back on empty mag, I have to shoot a lot more before I'm confidant in the load both for function & accuracy before I load any large quantities.

Larry,
Thank you for the well thought out & documented answer, I will keep working with the load I have & use WCWW, as long as I can get function with reasonable accuracy to 100 that will do. What should I play with the lino-type for? I have an early 60's Flaigg's bill barreled FN 98 commercial Mauser in '06, any suggestions? It weighs about 15 pounds :-)

[morme@gte.net]

I'm not an AR guy, so please forgive me if this is a stupid question. Can't you adjust some kind of gas bushing or gas tube position or something to get those things to cycle with reduced loads?

sorta

you can open the gas port, lighten the carrier, lighten the buffer, and use a weaker spring.

larger gas port requires an adjustable gas tube or gas block so that you don't slam the carrier when used with normal loads

all the other "fixes" mean swapping out parts until it works, if it can be made to work with just lighter components (generally not)

the mechanical parts are hit and miss, and are probably not enough. The typical subsonic rifle has the gas port located 4.7" from the chamber. Gas port locations are below, in inches from the chamber.

Rifle 13.2
Mid length 9.8
Carbine 7.8
Pistol 4.7

I have a 18" barrel with a rifle gas port, which means the port is 4.8" from the muzzle. If I used a pistol gas port location, the port would be 13.3" from the muzzle. You can see that there would be gas pressure on the bolt carrier for a much longer time (from the time the bullet passes the gas port to the time it exits the muzzle.)

using a pistol gas port location with standard loads can bust up the bolt etc. In theory, you can use an adjustable gas block, but it does not work well.

For dedicated suppressed subsonic barrels like the 300 blackout, you only shoot subsonic.

[JKH]

Jim,
an AR15 is a direct impingement system, function is directly effected by port pressure as well as powder burn rate. You can bleed off gas in a shorter gas system such as a carbine or pistol were port pressure is much higher but cannot increase pressure when too low by mechanical means. A piston driven upper is much different in some respects & can be expected to behave much like an FAL or similar piston/tappet operated semi-auto.
HTH
Jeff

[JIMinPHX]

Geeze, that sounds like a real can of worms. It's a lot easier to change that sort of thing on some other types of gas guns.

[Larry Gibson]

morme@gte.net,
Larry,
Thank you for the well thought out & documented answer, I will keep working with the load I have & use WCWW, as long as I can get function with reasonable accuracy to 100 that will do. What should I play with the lino-type for? I have an early 60's Flaigg's bill barreled FN 98 commercial Mauser in '06, any suggestions? It weighs about 15 pounds :-)

I like linotype and it generally works well in .30 cals, particularly if the bullet has thick driving bands. However, for regular loads in the best accuracy range of 1800 - 1950 fps I would mix it with lead at 60/40 LT/lead. Mixing the lead in it does lower the BHN but you can WQ if you want (I do not). The BHN on my alloy runs 16 - 18 with the Lee tester. The addition of the lead stretches out the supply of linotype but more importantly it makes for a "hard" yet malleable alloy and is not brittle like straight linotype. With the 60/40 alloy or 70/40 alloy I would use a 311299 over 4895 (28 - 32 g) with a 3/4 gr dacron filler. The RCBS 308-168-sil or the 311291 are also very good candidates.

If you want to push the envelope with higher velocity I suggest a 311466 or the LBT 150 gr SP cast of LT/lead at 80/20. Use these over slower powders like AA4350 or RL19 and, if you do everything else right, decent accuracy can be had upwards of 2400 fps. Developing these loads that will give consistent accuracy is not for the faint of heart or those who get frustrated easily.

Larry Gibson

[Moonie]

My load with the Bator that functions 100% in my mid-length port 16" is 18gr of H4895, standard springs, standard carbine buffer standard port size.

[morme@gte.net]

Here is a good explanation of gas systems, dwell time, etc

http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml


Geeze, that sounds like a real can of worms. It's a lot easier to change that sort of thing on some other types of gas guns.

[JIMinPHX]

Here is a good explanation of gas systems, dwell time, etc

http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/operation.shtml

That was probably a good basic first explanation for someone like me that is starting from scratch on that style of rifle. Since I've never had one apart, I'm not really sure what all the different parts look like. Could you possibly also point me to a place that has some diagrams that I could look at.

Thanks,
Jim

[JKH]

Jim,

The definitive site is ar15.com on the home page you will find a plethora of information, not to speak of whats inside :-)

[morme@gte.net]

Assembly guides

I tell people the rifle goes together like Legos. Simple, and accurate. Minimal number of tools, but a barrel wrench and upper receiver vise block are a must, as is a set of STEEL punches.

I have built a half dozen. It takes about 10 minutes for a lower, half hour for an upper.

Use am M-16 bolt carrier (no other M-16 parts), as it is heavier. They remove steel that would trip the auto sear from AR-15 carriers. If you want a heavy buffer, use the 9mm version. It is all steel. The other versions have 1, 2, or 3 tungsten plugs to adjust the weight, and cost a bunch more.

I get my barrels from Compass Lake Engineering, Trigger assembly from White Oak Armament or Armalite. White Oak used to take a Rock River Arms trigger and tune it the way you want. I set mine for 3 lbs first stage, 1 lb second stage.

Armalite has the best "cheap" trigger assy.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=10309000&ReturnUrl=categories2.aspx?Category=dfc0f777-5c39-4edf-bb6b-90009c5adc2c

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=184086
http://www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/


DO NOT get the barrel wrench they recommend. This type is much better, but requires a 1/2" socket drive

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=762854

an upper receiver vise block is a must
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=829522



Rock River makes "kits" all parts except the lower receiver. I use lowers from Cold War shooters marked 22LR.




Jim,

The definitive site is ar15.com on the home page you will find a plethora of information, not to speak of whats inside :-)

[JIMinPHX]

Wow, lots of good info.

Thanks.

Can you please check that vice block link though?

[morme@gte.net]

updated original post with correct link.

but, if you made it to the wrench, the link at the top of the item "Barrel Vises, Action Wrenches & Receiver Tools", would take you to a page with most of the tools you need




Wow, lots of good info.

Thanks.

Can you please check that vice block link though?

[goodshot]

I have an old lyman 225450 and I would shot cast boolits from it in my m16 a1 clone 5,56 ( norinco ) full lenght 1:12 . can you suggest any load that works at about 100y using H4895 ? thanks

[Moonie]

goodshot, as I said, 18gr of H4895 works the action for me with a midlength gas system. You should work from there to determine functioning and accuracy in your rifle.

[goodshot]

Ok, I'll try to hit the Target starting from 18 grs.
I'll post results as soon as possible.
Thanks

[thehouseproduct]

Geeze, that sounds like a real can of worms. It's a lot easier to change that sort of thing on some other types of gas guns.
this is what can make cast or even reloading for AR15 fun and or challenging. For my 300 Whisper, I am trying to balance the gas needed to cycle the action, the correct load for accuracy and ideally trying to keep velocity at about 1050 without going over. I am especially excited to get my new 247gr. 30 cal mold so I can use the same charge of powder but have it push the boolit slower, allowing me to meet all 3 goals.

I also just traded for a bator mold and can't wait to try getting a 223 AR15 load going in cast.

[Tenbender]

Sheepdog makes a good point as I also use a .22-250 with cast bullets..using the same bullet (55 grain RCBS-GC) the .22-250 is far more accurate, however the .22-250 sports a varmint bull barrel... I do happen to think that the .223 with cast bullets is accurate enough for me out to medium ranges...to me it is just a souped up .22 Magnum RF...
You must have one H of a 22 Mag. I love my 223 and I own a Browning B78 22-250. I can call my shots with the 700 Rem. 223 with a 6.5 X 20 Leupold. Out to 350 yrds. with a 40gr. Nosler , if I need to put one in a Coyotes ear I and put it there!

[freebullet]

You must have one H of a 22 Mag. I love my 223 and I own a Browning B78 22-250. I can call my shots with the 700 Rem. 223 with a 6.5 X 20 Leupold. Out to 350 yrds. with a 40gr. Nosler , if I need to put one in a Coyotes ear I and put it there!

I feel like I'm cheating when I use those. I still smile and have fun though. Very easy bullets to get accuracy with.

[dogmower]

another good load for the 55 grain rcbs fngc is 18.5 grains of aa2230.