Dispensing Black Powder

[Lawnjockey]

I've started reloading black powder and I have some questions about powder dispensers. As I understand it the smokeless dispensers are a no no with black due to possible static issues. To date I have been using a scale with Lee dippers and a tickler, real slow. I have an RCBS manual smokeless dispenser and also the electronic combo scale and dispenser for smokeless but as I understand it I can not use black in either, true?

If I have to buy another dispenser for black what are my options. Consistent drops are number one in importance with price being second.

Thanks

Jocko

[shooter93]

Lyman makes a BP measure, the hopper and parts are mostly brass to prevent static eletricity.

[rob45]

A powder measure rated for safe use with black powder will be constructed with nonferrous metals. The metering unit is usually brass. For economical manufacture, the hopper is usually aluminum.

All of the "big 3" (Lyman, Hornady, RCBS) make one and are in the same general price range; expect to pay somewhere around $125. Lee doesn't make one, but if they did I would almost guarantee it would be 100% aluminum and plastic (no expensive brass) and be half the cost of the others.

Many situations call for use of a drop tube in conjunction with your BP measure. A drop tube allows the powder to "settle" into the case, thereby permitting a larger charge. The old saying is "stuffing 2 pounds of **** into a 1 pound bag". Most drop tubes are 24" long, and generally cost $25-40. Your particular situation may not necessitate use of a drop tube, but it sure makes life easier for me.

I have used a Lyman #55 Classic Black Powder Measure since 2003. The love-hate relationship I've had with Lyman as of late notwithstanding, I have to say I am very pleased with this measure. If I'm on top of my game, consistency is there. Think charges held to within .2 grains, with .4 grains maximum deviation. As with any powder measure, best consistency is obtained when the powder level is kept above the baffle. My measure is marked to read a max of 120 grains, but the metering unit can be slid out and calibrated to measure 200 grains (FFG). Obviously plenty of capacity. The only thing I do not like about it is the factory drop tube; I feel that it has too large of an orifice diameter. I had a machinist make a smaller orifice and adapt it to the factory tube.

My cousin owns the Hornady model. He has had it for about 7 years, and his biggest complaint was lack of a factory drop tube. I mailed him a Lyman tube and it didn't fit. However, his supplier recently told him that Hornady has started production of a factory drop tube; supposedly it even comes with interchangeable orifices. His measure reads to 100 grains. I asked him if it will go out further (like my Lyman) and he has not yet checked to see. Overall, he is happy with the measure. Since he lives 7 hours south of me, I have not used his Hornady, but he has visited up here and used my Lyman. He likes the Lyman better because he says it is more consistent.

RCBS also makes a BP measure; I have no experience with it and do not know anyone who has one. As with most things made by RCBS, it is probably of good quality.

Understand that this is only two opinions from two people. In my direct area, very few people shoot black powder; the ones who do use it more for muzzleloading rather than BPCR. Preferring to support my local shop, I very seldom purchase from the internet suppliers, but most of them have some sort of "feedback" program on the various products, so that may be a way to get more information. Also, more information may be available by checking the various forums here (single shot guns, black powder cartridge, etc.)

Hope I've helped somewhat.
Good Luck.

[G50-70]

Buffalo Arms sells a brass replacement hopper for the Lyman 55. I bought one several years ago and have been very satisfied with it.

[jonk]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

An eye opener.

I think it isn't the static that ignites it but the heat from friction in some dispensers.

Plastic is no problem or you wouldn't be able to buy black powder in plastic bottles or use your lee dippers.

I don't reload much black in cases but if I did, I'd waffle on the issue. Conventional wisdom vs the experiment above.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I have owned one of those Lyman powder measures with the short plastic tube for at least 30 years. The instructions include useing black powder.

I have, and still do.

I have all the parts lubed with a very light coating of Lee resizing lube which dries to a waxy film. This is for corrosion as you must keep the measure empty and out of the humidity when not being used. It 's cast iron, criminitly !...and will rust and bind from the powder dust absorbing moisture.

For the worry-warts, firmly hook a wire to a screw outside , run the wire up the outside of the plastic tube and down to the top part of the metal inside. It won't do nothing different except save you the retrofit kit price. BvT

[jhrosier]

... you must keep the measure empty and out of the humidity when not being used. It 's cast iron, criminitly !...and will rust and bind from the powder dust absorbing moisture. ...

I got a free Lyman #55 from a fellow who was using it for BP.
He didn't keep it dry and clean and the BP dust plus moisture literally ate the casting away and then the corrosion scored the drum beyond repair.
Lyman was not sympathetic and offered him a new measure for list price.
I got it in case the larger hopper and long drop tube might come in handy some day.

Jack

[Lawnjockey]

Thanks for the ideas.

Jocko

[tonyb]

Been using my uniflow for black powder since 1984.

[Catshooter]

Both of my Uniflows say on the top Not For Blackpowder.


Cat

[Lead Fred]

I use a plastic spoon into the plastic volume measure, then into the drop tube

[montana_charlie]

As I understand it the smokeless dispensers are a no no with black due to possible static issues.
With some guys, you can buy 'em shoes and send 'em to school and still they have to prove the laws of nature wrong.
One of those 'rebels' suspected that static electricity isn't as dangerous around black powder as the experts say it is...so he went to trying to explode some with that kind of energy.

He used static charges that would burn holes in your mother's favorite linen tablecloth, but he never got a single granule of black powder to ignite.

I use the same (all steel & iron) Redding powder measure that I bought decades ago for smokeless, and I don't feel at all nervous about it.
CM

[Shiloh]

Been using my uniflow for black powder since 1984.

25 years is a long record of no incidents.

Using your Uniflow however, goes against all the safety precautions and RCBS recommendations.

Shiloh

[tonyb]

Using your Uniflow however, goes against all the safety precautions and RCBS recommendations.

Shiloh
Yep, known that fer 25 years.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

that Crow lady recommended only one sheet too. But I think she has other things on her mind. BvT

[jerrold]

electricity is such an issue, why is there no report of accident. Why will it not light smokeless. I think the fear is an old wives tail. Use a RCBS Uniflow, always have always will.:coffeecom

[KCSO]

Static will not light off granulated powder, but it WILL light off dust, any dust. Doc Carlson and I have both used a static generator to attempt to light off granulated powder. Using a Nova xr5000 50,000 volt stun gun we have repeatedly sent sparks through various black powders with NO results. But if you take the same unit, put a little flour in a plastic pail, shake it up and zap it, you can blow the lid across the room. That's why milling the powder is so dangerous, the dust created.

As to powder measures, the Lyman #5 I have came with instructions for Black and the new smokless powders and my Father in Law's 55 also was advertised for black and smokless. They DO have to be kept clean and you can't store powder in them and that may be why they are no longer recommended. If you keep them clean there seems to be no problem.

[cajun shooter]

I shoot nothing but BP and when I first started I did what was told to me and purchased the BP measures. I have a Lyman 55 and a RCBS. In recent test by others they have tried to ignite BP with electrical sparks to no avail. You will find all of your BP for sale in plastic type containers.

[rob45]

A powder measure rated for safe use with black powder will be constructed with nonferrous metals. The metering unit is usually brass. For economical manufacture, the hopper is usually aluminum.
Lee doesn't make one, but if they did I would almost guarantee it would be 100% aluminum and plastic (no expensive brass) and be half the cost of the others.


This thread certainly opened up a can of worms.

Please note that I have not stated an opinion regarding the possibility of static ignition. I merely stated the construction as it is from the manufacturers.

We are not the manufacturers of the powder measures; as such, we can only speculate their reasoning for making the separate products.

Could it be due to the corrosive effects of BP?
Please take note of my comment: "...constructed with nonferrous metals". Were I to manufacture a powder measure, I would most definitely take into account the possibility that the average Joe will not consider preventative maintenance of "something as simple as a powder measure". Yet if the equipment goes bad through fault of our own (refer to post #7 by jhrosier), the product and the manufacturer are blamed. Result: Joe tells all of his buddies bad things, even if Joe was the party at fault.
Personally, I do not want to "specially maintain" a powder measure, and that is the reason I purchased the one I have. I have enough trouble maintaining everything else and keeping track of it all.

Could it be due to the static issue?
Please take note of my comment: "...rated for safe use..." That does not come from me, nor does it reflect my opinion, but rather what is stated in advertising. If one has any concern about why a manufacturer states the word "safe" and their allusion to that word, then perhaps the individual should go straight to the source for clarification- the manufacturer.
I do know that we unfortunately live in a litigious society, and the direction and decisions of a corporation are not determined by the people who actually know what's going on (i.e., engineers, chemists, etc.), but rather the accountants and attorneys. Even if we prove something wrong, you can bet the farm that a corporate attorney will say that "it doesn't matter; the possibility still exists".

Here are some points of interest for the more inquisitive among us who wish to piece it all together:

1. I am looking- at this very moment- at a can of GOEX FFFg. It is red with black labeling, and is approximately 15 years old. It is metal, and has a few spots of corrosion on the shiny top. A magnet sticks to this can, indicating ferrous material. On the side of the can is the following statement: "DANGER! READ THIS WARNING! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE AND EXPLOSIVE! - KEEP AWAY FROM HEAT, SPARKS, AND OPEN FLAME! - KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN! - AVOID IMPACT AND FRICTION! - STORE IN A COOL, DRY PLACE! - SEE FURTHER PRECAUTIONS ON BACK OF CAN."

2. Now I am looking at a Uniflow. It does indeed state on the top Not For Black Powder. But it doesn't say why.

3.Now I am looking at a field powder dispenser. It is a cheap CVA unit purchased back in '92. It is black plastic.

4. Now I am looking at a field measure. It was made by T/C and is clear plastic.

5. Now I am looking at the latest addition to my lever gun stable- a Marlin 1895 XLR. It is still in the box as received from the dealer. On the top of the box in the center is the Marlin insignia depicting the cowboy on a horse. Directly to the right of that is the following statement: MR. DEALER THE ENCLOSED OWNER'S MANUAL SHOULD BE READ BY THE CONSUMER TO ASSURE SAFE USE OF THIS FIREARM. BE SURE THE CONSUMER RECEIVES IT.

6. Now I am looking at the owner's manual for the XLR. Not counting the covers, it is 8 pages.
Page 1 has 4 warnings in red print.
Page 2 has 3 warnings.
Page 3 has no warnings.
Page 4 has 6 warnings.
Page 5 has 5 warnings.
Page 6 has 2 warnings.
Page 7 has 1 warning.
Page 8 has no warnings.
I would venture to say that about 50% of the entire manual is "warnings".

7. Now I am looking at the owner's manual for a recently purchased Ruger M77 Mark II. This manual has about twice the amount of liability-evading warnings as the Marlin.
Of particular interest with the Ruger is that I installed a Timney trigger on it. Later on I inquired about sending the gun back to Ruger to have them check out the rear integral scope mount I felt- and still feel- was out of spec. Can anyone tell me what the trigger has to do with the scope mount??? Obviously the factory thinks they are tied at the hip.


I suppose that the best thing to keep in mind is that we are dealing with manufacturers, and their motives may or may not concern us. It's up to us to separate the carrots from the meat and potatoes. For that matter, some of us like the carrots, too.:grin:

[semtav]

Just looked at the top of my Uniflow. no such warning. course its at least 35 yrs old, so maybe that was either before black powder or all these liablilty issues. Not sure which.

Whats the maximum capacity for the Uniflow? Suppose I'll have to use two loads on the 45-120?

[Major Tom]

RE: dust will ignite. Yes, it will. Not only BP dust, but, grain dust too. Grain elevators/storage companies have been known to explode. Happened right here in S.E. Iowa a few tears ago. Blew huge chunks of concrete a quarter mile and broke windows within 1 mile. Did you know gasoline will not burn? It's the vapor that does burn.

[cajun shooter]

It all started with the Lawyer that won the first case against the first manufacturer for fault. A lot of companies have been put out of business because the product they make was used by someone who did not read the instructions. Look at all the writing on a Ruger barrel and it makes you sick. Slip and fall has risen to a art form in the USA. My best example of that is the hot coffee at McDonalds case, who would have guessed that fresh made coffee is hot?

[montana_charlie]

I have a somewhat different suspicion about why some powder measures are 'suitable' for black powder, and others are not.

Back during the 'transition', any measure was considered suitable for either powder type.
As smokeless gradually came to dominate the reloader's world, black was relegated to the ML crowd...with their pocket measures. There was no need to 'warn' against the use of BP in a Redding, or RCBS, or 'whatever' measure...because nobody was doing it, anyway.

When BPCR came to be big enough to start creating a market for specialized tools, manufacturers were quick to start producing them. Remember the initial prices on die sets for the long .45's? Lordy!
But most folks already had a powder measure screwed to the bench, and BP flows through them even more nicely than some of the smokeless types. And...those measures don't wear out.

So, the only way to get a reloader to buy a new measure (when he decides to take up BPCR) is to make him afraid to use his old one.

Take some old news stories about blown up powder plants, get some advice from the corporate lawyers, stick in a brass drum and aluminum hopper, and it's a done deal. Just jack up the price on the 'special one' by fifty percent...because it's 'special'...and you have a whole group of old customers looking for new powder measures.

CM

[Hip's Ax]

Lawnjockey, when I shopped for a BP measure a while back I settled on the RCBS. I liked the rod that lets you know how much powder is left in the hopper and I love RCBS customer service.

Wish I was willing to pay for the Harrel's measure (see BA link below), bet that one is the most accurate but for sure would be the most pleasant to use, set it up once and write down the number by click position. I have one of their smokeless measures and I love it and it really saves on set up time over my Lyman 55. I look at what number I used the last time, click it to that number and verify using the scale.

As far as the warnings go, anything that might reduce the risk of setting off a pound of black powder in my face at the reloading bench, well, I'm OK with that and I don't worry about why the warnings are made.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6032.html

[McLintock]

I've got a RCBS electronic dispenser and scale combo and have been using it to load BP loads for 45-70, 38-55 and 38-50 Rem single shots for 6-7 years now. Just did 70 38-55 yesterday. On really dry days, which we have alot of in Arizona (4-5%humidity), I do take the precaution of using a humidifier in the work area, but in my reloading area where I have lenoleum floors, I don't generate static like in rugged areas of the house. I've read the reports that have been talked about in this tread, on trying to set off BP with sparks and it looks like it's pretty difficult if not impossible. The amount of dust you deal with in reloading is so small I can't see where it's a problem. After loading the 70 rounds yesterday, there wasn't enough dust in the bottom of the hopper to do anything, but I was using Swiss, which is noted for it's uniformity. The RCBS unit is almost entirely plastic with just the drop tubes which are probably aluminum, so I can't see where there's much potential for a spark anyway. But that's JMHO on the subject and I'll keep using the RCBS unit.
McLintock

[Southern Son]

I would love a Harrel's measure, but I could not afford it. I am using a Hornady (pre lock and load) that I replaced the plastic hopper with a length of stailess steel exhaust pipe. I did not do that because of any static concerns, I did it because the plastic hopper was cracking. I do have to give the drum a good clean and oil after every use (forgot to once and it started to rust within a couple of days).

[cajun shooter]

Hips Ax, I too like the RCBS because of the rod set up to tell you the powder level. I did the same with my Lyman 55. I drilled a 1/4 in hole in the top center. I then cut a piece of dowel rod and epoxyed two fender washers to the end of the dowel. I then put this into the empty measure to get a empty reading and marked the dowel in red at this point. Works great. I now have two BP measures that let me know the inside level. Later David

[thehouseproduct]

Does the Lee Lee Perfect Powder Measure use any metal components at all?

[John Boy]

Does the Lee Lee Perfect Powder Measure use any metal components at all? Yes, the handle bar and the aluminum screw that threads into the rotor, plus the nut that screws into the measure body for the plastic drop adjusting calibrator.

I will concur the BP fines, in the 'dust' size will ignite in a volume of air, as will flour and grain dust.
But as a general statement, the Fg to FFFFg grains are coated in the polishing process with graphite, a non conductor of electricity. And to reduce the fines in a can of BP, 'sock' it. The fines will be removed and also reduces the sieve size variation to provide better AV and SD's.

And to reduce static, the lawyer's predominate reason for no charging BP in chargers stated for smokeless powders only, spray the inside of the charger tube, rotor drum or slide with Static Guard (http://www.mystaticguard.com/)

I am not saying to do these items to circumvent the vendor's safety statements, I just say what can be done to 'minimize' explosions

[dave roelle]

I have a full complement of RCBS loading equipement-----------i think i'll machine a "brass" drum for the uniflow measure for black powder just for piece of mind.

In automated production loading equipement all moving parts that directly touched powder for metering were brass-steel contact situations--never steel to iron or steel.

[texasmac]

Dave Roelle,

Save the time and effort to turn a brass drum, just take a thin sheet of shim stock, cut and bend it to line the inside of the hopper, or line it with a sheet of aluminum foil. Either works just fine if you are concerned about the plastic hopper. Below is a photo of the automated RCBS droptube setup I designed and constructed several years ago to work with BP. Works great. Notice the aluminum foil lining the hopper. The photo was taken in 2007, but I built and have used the setup since 1999. I also have an RCBS Uniflow measure that I've used with BP and lined with brass shim stock as a precaution .

Wayne

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/RealTexasMac/Picture008A.jpg

[dave roelle]

Hi texas mac:

Nice way to bleed off the static, i'll be sure to do that, along with a good hard electrical ground.

I was thinking more of the interface between the frame and the metering drum --- it would be overkill but if i have a few minutes i think i'll give it a try.

Hey thats a very nice set up for controling the powder charge ------------ i'm going to fab up a drop tube system this week.

thanks

dave

[bigted]

all pretty interesting here. i still havnt read about someone using a lyman 1200 dps3 despenser. mine also says no toblack powder. dont see the diff between this and a powder trickler i have. any thoughts or did i miss something?

the auto trickler that is my 1200 should not cause any static or electric spark that i see...any ideas?

[Oyeboten]

Here is an image of the Powder Dispenser I use for Black Powder -


http://hotimg23.fotki.com/a/65_160/210_136/MVC026S-vi.jpg (http://hotimg23.fotki.com/p/a/65_160/210_136/MVC026S-vi.jpg)


It is an old Cast Iron and Brass 'IDEAL - No. 5"


Very well made, easy to adjust the throw or charge...a joy.

[thehouseproduct]

So I looked at my Lee Perfect Powder Measure and it is 100% plastic construction anywhere the powder touches. It has an AL spout. It seems like this would be BP approved.

[John F.]

Hi,
I've not used a Lee Perfect Powder Measure, but have heard they can do very well with fairly large granule powder. I've read reports where their loose tolerances (that make the larger-grain powder work so well) can cause leakage and possibly jamming with small grain powder... as in BP "fines?"

Has anyone here used a LPPM with BP, and if so, how did it work?

Thanks,
John

[John Boy]

Has anyone here used a LPPM with BP, and if so, how did it work?
Grain Weight Statistics Between 4 Different Powder Measures (http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7037)

[John F.]

Good info, John Boy,

Thanks very much!!
:grin:
John