47-70 BP Load

[Matt Muir]

Hey fellas, I have now gone to the shooting of only Black in my LRE. The groups are so much better than with smokless but I have a question. My load is 65gr by weight with a 30 veggie wad and a 535 Lyman. My question is, the way I compress my powder is not normal from what I see here. I bell my cases just a touch with my RCBS die. I then fill with powder and place the wad over. Then I use my die with the bell sizer to compress. It places the the wad down to the perfect height for the boolit to hand fit to the last ring above the lube groove. I then run it through my seater to put a slight roll crimp on. The boolit can still spin but can not move out. It seems to crimp just below the last ring or maybe on it.

The groups have been fantastic at 100yrds. Today in some wind the group was 3/4 of an inch or less. My question is can I compress the powder too much? Or can I hurt anything by mashing with the bell sizer post? I Know if I shoot a different lenght boolit I will need to get a true compression die. But this just seemed to have all the stars line up for this load. Going to try and get a doe on Monday to see how the cast behaves on live targets.

Also, I sighted in for 1 inch high at 100, I did not have a chance to shoot at 50 yet. Do any of you have any idea how high I may be at 50 with that setting?

Sorry for being long winded

Matt

[Don McDowell]

Matt if you're getting that type of accuracy, I wouldn't worry about changing a thing.

[Matt Muir]

Thanks Don, I still amazed how these guns shoot with open sights and a design that has not changed in 135 years. There are people at the range that would love to shoot groups that size with 20x scopes. The crowd that gathers when they see the big stinky cloud is pretty cool :)

[405]

Matt,
Don't post a picture of the target over on the Paper Patch section. You'll get chided for shooting so-so, hohum 3/4" groups at 100. BTW, 3/4" at 100 is very fine shooting with any equipment, IMO.

Sounds like you've got the formula for a good load. Keep using the compression that is working. You might record the load particulars in a log including a measurement of the compression. Then in the future you can keep track of single variables and results.

I just looked at a calculator and had to make a couple of assumptions about the geometry of your setup but a guess would be about 3-3.5" high at 50 with the 1" high at 100. You might go to the linked site and play with the calculator. I've found it to be pretty accurate for predicting trajectories.... really handy for setting sights for the first time when jumping to long range.... saves a lot of shooting into the ozone, particulary if you don't have a spotter or dry dirt or a very large backer.

Details are critical with these calculators so play with it some to get the hang.
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.0.cgi

[Matt Muir]

Thanks 405, I will check out that link.

[Mark Daiute]

I really need to know, What's an LRE?

Thanks,


Mark

[NickSS]

That is fine shooting and it works for you. I also have a Shiloh Long Range Express that shoots well with almost exactly the same load. The only difference is that I do not crimp and just remove the bell when seetig the bullet. You did not say how many rounds went into your group but I fire 10 shot groups and my rifle with my load prints about 1.5 inch 10 shot groups with an occasional flier that do to me doing something dumb (like jerking the trigger). I did fire several five shot groups that were about 3/4 inch but as I am a target shooter and most matches are 10 or 15 rounds between stages I want to know that my load works for that amount of shooting between wiping the bore.

[Matt Muir]

Mark LRE is Shiloh Long Range Express.

Nick, we were shooting 5 or 6 rounds.

[August]

That load, as well as your process, sounds great to me!!!

I do have a compression die. And, it's been convenient. But, I too have used an expander die for compressing powder and it's worked for me.

A few episodes with the 38-55 suggested to me that it's possible to apply too much compression. I started getting worse fouling when trying to cram as much powder in that little case as possible.

You're load sounds right on to me.

[Gunlaker]

Why that's awfully close to the load I use in my Shiloh LRE :-). I use 67gr of Goex Cartridge with the new RCBS bullet that comes in about 548gr in 20:1 alloy. Also using a 0.030" wad. Main difference is I use about 0.001" neck tension and don't remove the bell from the brass in an attempt to keep everything centred in the chamber/bore.

My groups aren't quite as good yet (1.5" to 1.75" high @ 100 yards with 5 shots ), but I write this off to my lack of casting mastery. Just last night I mounted a new Soule sight on the rear and a Shaver on the front. This ought to make it a bit better to get a consistent sight picture.

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

My question is can I compress the powder too much? Depends on what you mean by 'too much'.
You won't cause any 'safety problem' by compressing too much with BP.
But you might swell a case so that it won't chamber.

If you do go to heavier compression, it's good to check that with a few cases before putting bullets in them.
If you do fatten some up too much, you can pull out the decapper from your full length sizing die, and run the 'fat' case in partway...just enough to make it chamber easily.

Another version of 'too much' compression depends on which powder you use.
The various brands and grades react differently to compression.


Matt,
Don't post a picture of the target over on the Paper Patch section. You'll get chided for shooting so-so, hohum 3/4" groups at 100.
Can you provide a link to the thread where that occurred?

CM

[Matt Muir]

Gun laker, I am using mag primers at this time,just to let you know. I have 2 bricks and figured I would use these in the sharps and save the reg primers for the other smokless guns. If or when I can find more large rifle primers I will try them with this load. I have read that the mag primers may be ok out to 100yrds but may hurt the accuracy at longer distances. I use an MVA sight so I'm sure that is a big help with the group size.

[Don McDowell]

Matt you going to make the Quigley this year?

[Matt Muir]

Don, some how I don't think I am anywhere near the level that it takes to compete. My boys and me just love to shoot the gun and whatch it blow stuff up. We are always in search of the 100yrd ground hog:) I would love to get to the level to be able to shoot at competitions, but I think it is a long way off.

[Don McDowell]

Matt you were at the "level it takes to compete" the minute you fired the first rounds thru that rifle. Especially for gong shoots like the Quigley. It's not a serious competition, but is a grand social gathering for bpcr types from all over the world.
Load up about 300+ rounds of ammo for that rifle and head on out to Forsyth this June. Entry fee is 25$ a head, all of you would be in the drawing for the rifles, and the boys would be in the draw for the youth rifle.... They have prizes for father/son, husband/wife.... Fun for the whole family.

[semtav]

Matt
ditto what Don said. If you can shoot sub 1" @ 100 yds, you are probably ahead of over 50% of the people there.

My daughter had only shot a BPCR a couple times (and any gun in general for that matter) before the last Quigley and she placed well above 50% of the people there.

But I have to disagree with Don on one point . Bring way more than 300 rnds, and come a day or so early to practice.

I don't know the exact setup, but I know two people can shoot the same gun without running into scheduling problems, just not sure how it would work with three. but if you need , somebody here could loan you an extra gun.

[Don McDowell]

Three or maybe even 4 people can use the same gun. Just have to sign up right. For example the first shooter would sign into the #5 spot of 4 yellow, then the next would sign to #10, and the third to #15. That way the spotting scope, sticks and other stuff never needs to move until you move to the next target. The sign up and rotation stays the same from one target to the next.

[Matt Muir]

Thanks for the info guys. I will try and see if I can work out some loads at long distance and give it a shot so to speak.

What are the ranges that I will need to work up?

Matt

[Don McDowell]

350,380,411,531,650,789

The 350 is off hand.

[Matt Muir]

YIKES! Maybe the will let me shoot the 789 in 3 stages of 263 :)

[Don McDowell]

If you know your velocity you can go to Hornady's web site and use their ballistics calculator and get the minutes elevation you'll need. Haven't looked at it really close but the numbers generated there seem pretty close to what my range book says...
Here's a down the barrel son Bob took at the stopsign (650 yds)
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/betterfrontsight.jpg

[semtav]

YIKES! Maybe the will let me shoot the 789 in 3 stages of 263 :)


If my 40-65 can get there, I'm pretty sure your 45-70 won't have any problems. The target is pretty big!

[1874Sharps]

Matt,

I congratulate you on your load and shooting success! That is mighty fine shooting. To answer your original question about compression it certainly seems that for that load and that powder (perhaps that particular lot of powder) you have the winning combination of all variables. It is nice to have a compression die, but Hubertus made himself a compression die of sorts by taking a wooden dowel of proper size and length and using it between the bullet seating stem and the case to compress the powder. Of course the amount of compression can be adjusted by turning the seating stem. I think that was very clever!