Convert a Handi to smokless Muzzleloader

[peter nap]

As much as I hate inlines, I've reached the point where I have to have a scope to hunt.

Peeps aren't working anymore. If I'm going to scope something, it isn't going to be one of my rifles that I spent so much time researching traditional lines, measuring originals and forging parts for.

I'm going to convert one of my Handi Rifles to inline and as long as I'm committing a crime against nature, I might as well go all out and make it smokless.

I have a couple of ideas about how to do it, but thought someone here may have built a smokless ML.

Before anyone says it, I know, I'll shoot my eye out:kidding:

[peter nap]

Well, I think I decided on how to do it.
I'm going to use one of my SB2 Handi Ultra Slug Hunters in 12 ga.

I need to thread the chamber and make a bushing to fit in it.
Then drill and thread the bushing for a Grade 5 bolt (See picture) that has been drilled and reamed for a 209 primer.

These Bolt heads will be the carriers for the primers and myst be changed when I reload.
I can't think of any other way to guarantee a good seal. I'll just deprime and prime like a shell.

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/PICT0101.JPG

[autofix4u]

Well all I cam tell you is I built one very, very similar to what you have planed. it works very well & I use aa5744. (and I haven't shot my eye out yet)

[peter nap]

Well all I cam tell you is I built one very, very similar to what you have planed. it works very well & I use aa5744. (and I haven't shot my eye out yet)

Praise the lord![smilie=w:

You wouldn't share any of your design would you? Please

[leftiye]

I made an in-line from a falling block. I made the "breech plug" to accept a .38 special case with primer. Large primer might be better. FWIW

[peter nap]

I made an in-line from a falling block. I made the "breech plug" to accept a .38 special case with primer. Large primer might be better. FWIW

Is yours something like this?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/drdtmd/DSC02378.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/drdtmd/DSC02380.jpg

[garandsrus]

Peter Nap,

Why not just send the frame to H&R (Remington) and have them fit a muzzle loader barrel? They are pretty cheap.

There is a post (http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,164130.0.html) on Greybeard's H&R Sidekick forum that shows a conversion plug for 209 primers, which is similar to what you are looking for. I think it's about $25.

John

[peter nap]

Peter Nap,

Why not just send the frame to H&R (Remington) and have them fit a muzzle loader barrel? They are pretty cheap.

There is a post (http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,164130.0.html) on Greybeard's H&R Sidekick forum that shows a conversion plug for 209 primers, which is similar to what you are looking for. I think it's about $25.

John

Handi doesn't make them anymore but even if they did, I don't like anything smaller than .58.
Ed Hubel had a want to buy, post for a Handi ML barrel for a long time and never got a nibble.

Every once in a while you see a barrel on Greybeards, but there's always a waiting line.

The plugs aren't any problem. I can turn them all day but even if I had one oh the Handi ML barrels, I wouldn't want to shoot smokeles in it.

Besides...it's a challange.:groner:

There is one fellow making smokless ML barrels for Handis but he wants almost $400.00 for just the barrel.

[bohica2xo]

The big issue with smokless in a non-fixed ammo configuration is containing the pressure.

A shotshell primer is ok for black powder, and light smokeless loads. Once you pass 15k psi the shotshell primer is not up to the job... A lot depends on what caliber you intend to make this weapon, and how far you want to push it.

With a big recess in that handi-rifle breech area, a 40k psi leak will send pieces flying. If you plan to make inserts, use a taper seat at the front of the thread. Keep the pressure (and fouling!) out of the threads.
A large rifle primer with a long flash hole will limit the pressure signal at the primer cup. You can fill the flash hole with pistol powder and place an adhesive label over the open end if you like.

Over the years I have built plenty of oddball stuff, including smokless guns with no "case". Breech load the bullet into the bore first. Load the powder as a pre-measured package. Seat the plug with primer. Lots of fun with an M61 20mm barrel...

So what caliber will this be?

B.

[peter nap]

The big issue with smokless in a non-fixed ammo configuration is containing the pressure.

A shotshell primer is ok for black powder, and light smokeless loads. Once you pass 15k psi the shotshell primer is not up to the job... A lot depends on what caliber you intend to make this weapon, and how far you want to push it.

With a big recess in that handi-rifle breech area, a 40k psi leak will send pieces flying. If you plan to make inserts, use a taper seat at the front of the thread. Keep the pressure (and fouling!) out of the threads.
A large rifle primer with a long flash hole will limit the pressure signal at the primer cup. You can fill the flash hole with pistol powder and place an adhesive label over the open end if you like.

Over the years I have built plenty of oddball stuff, including smokless guns with no "case". Breech load the bullet into the bore first. Load the powder as a pre-measured package. Seat the plug with primer. Lots of fun with an M61 20mm barrel...

So what caliber will this be?

B.

12 ga

[bohica2xo]

In that case, smokless with a 209 breech insert is just fine. You said you would start with the 12 gauge bbl, but I have seen them sleeved down to smaller calibers.

Chamfer the muzzle so you can seat plastic wads for a good seal, and use any listed smokeless load.

Be sure the breech plug bushing extends far enough foreward to keep the wad & projectile out of the chamber area. I would still be inclined to use a taper seat at the end of the threaded plug for sealing.

B.

[leftiye]

Swede Nelson has a process for welding underlugs on barrels to make Handi barrels. This might be the only way to get a .58 cal. in a Handi. A whole kit muzzle loader is another option.

Peternap - I just headspaced the 38/357 case on the rim in a hole (hollow breech plug with hex head). A 45 or 44 could have been used as easily.

[peter nap]

In that case, smokless with a 209 breech insert is just fine. You said you would start with the 12 gauge bbl, but I have seen them sleeved down to smaller calibers.

Chamfer the muzzle so you can seat plastic wads for a good seal, and use any listed smokeless load.

Be sure the breech plug bushing extends far enough foreward to keep the wad & projectile out of the chamber area. I would still be inclined to use a taper seat at the end of the threaded plug for sealing.

B.

I'm not real clear on the taper seat B.
I've breeched a hundred or so ML barrels and have fitted a couple of plugs to modern double barrels for a nipple, but I'm in new territory with a smokless break open.

On a normal barrel, I cut and thread so the barrel has a shoulder for the plug to snug up to. The way I learned it, the shoulder(s) contained the pressure but leakage would erode the threads if it wasn't tight.

I would think that would go triple for smokles.

I guess I just don't understand what the taper seat, seats on.

[peter nap]

This is a rough idea of what I had in mind

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/plugweb.jpg

[bohica2xo]

Peter:

The idea is to keep the gas from getting to the threads. This is a big deal in cannon breech design, and you will find lots of patents on various sealing designs - some date to the first decade of the patent office existience...

The taper seat is easy to clean, inspect & repair if need be. The threaded plug is in compression. The threads stay clean & free of powder fouling.

A typical cap & ball breech seals on the face between the plug & barrel. This means that the powder gas is allowed into the threads, and the plug head is under tension if significant gas pressure moves along the thread. The nipples in a cap & ball revolver are subject to the same issue, and can be a problem to remove as the fouling can get into the thread.

Sorry for the crappy graphic, I just did a quick freehand in paint for your reference. No mastercam here at home...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_f9mZJsRJS54/SxU93yYgfpI/AAAAAAAAACs/YmMZexsRW_U/s912/TaperSeat.jpg

B.

[peter nap]

The graphic's better than mine. That make sense now. Actually, that's how I cut my ML barrels except mine are flat instead of tapered.

A properly fitted ml barrel really seals two places. The shoulder at the front of the threads (where your taper is) and the shoulder on the outside of te barrel. Gas shouldn't ever get to the threads. It;s a PITA sometimes too. The shoulders have to tighten at the same time while the flats line up and the runout is either on the top or bottom.

Sometimes It takes me a couple of hours with a fussy one. That's just using a file and Prussian blue.

So the plug in this picture should be the right idea?????
Thanks!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/drdtmd/DSC02378.jpg

[jbunny]

SMOKELESS ML; me thinks u should talk to the old time ML shooters.
i don't care who u are sooner or later u will screw up. dry ball, 2 balls and
double charge. with black powder not such a big deal. with smokeless,
a very probaly catastrafic results. was it on this list with all the savage
smokeless ML kabooms. hell people loading cartridges double charge usaly
drawing blood. just my 2 cents worth. yes i have shot ML for many years,
and yes i have done all of the above. i also hand load and nock on wood,
i have never double charged yet. you get a system reloading and if your
at least half awake, is fool proof. i don't mean to rain on your parade but
a little rain is better than soaked in your own blood. rant mode off.
jb

[peter nap]

SMOKELESS ML; me thinks u should talk to the old time ML shooters.
i don't care who u are sooner or later u will screw up. dry ball, 2 balls and
double charge. with black powder not such a big deal. with smokeless,
a very probaly catastrafic results. was it on this list with all the savage
smokeless ML kabooms. hell people loading cartridges double charge usaly
drawing blood. just my 2 cents worth. yes i have shot ML for many years,
and yes i have done all of the above. i also hand load and nock on wood,
i have never double charged yet. you get a system reloading and if your
at least half awake, is fool proof. i don't mean to rain on your parade but
a little rain is better than soaked in your own blood. rant mode off.
jb

Thanks for the advice Jbunny....But what makes an old time ML shooter..an Old Time ML shooter.

I've been shooting them since the late 50's and scratch building them since 1970.

I just want a smokeless right now. Never thought of building one before. At least it won't have a PLASTIC STOCK:mrgreen:

[jbunny]

Thanks for the advice Jbunny....But what makes an old time ML shooter..an Old Time ML shooter.
one that has all his fingers intact.

I've been shooting them since the late 50's and scratch building them since 1970.
so have i. i even build my own barrels and rifile them too.

I just want a smokeless right now. Never thought of building one before. At least it won't have a PLASTIC STOCK:mrgreen:
i know where your comeing from and it don't hurt to dream. i have a H&R handi
rifle 58 cal ML. i only used BP in it. i then converted it to 20 gauge -58 cal cartridge
rifle. 1 question, can u honestly say that u have never dryballed or double charged
a ML???:bigsmyl2:
anyhow i wish the best of luck to u.
jb

[peter nap]

i know where your comeing from and it don't hurt to dream. i have a H&R handi
rifle 58 cal ML. i only used BP in it. i then converted it to 20 gauge -58 cal cartridge
rifle. 1 question, can u honestly say that u have never dryballed or double charged
a ML???:bigsmyl2:
anyhow i wish the best of luck to u.
jb

1 dryball but never a double either cartridge reloading or muzzle loading. I'm too picky about consistency to get careless about loading. That' a good habit you get from loading a lot of stuff hot.

[jbunny]

Peter; u are doing better than average. ther is an old addage
those that have and those that will.:)
regards
jb

[waksupi]

Fishhawk has dryballed so many times, he has saved over a case of powder over the years!

As was said, there are those what has, and those what will! Whenever someone tells me they have never dry balled, it tells me they haven't shot ML's much!

[peter nap]

Fishhawk has dryballed so many times, he has saved over a case of powder over the years!

As was said, there are those what has, and those what will! Whenever someone tells me they have never dry balled, it tells me they haven't shot ML's much!

The once was enough to teach me a lesson. I didn't have a puller. I don't put liners in my flintlocks until the touch hole starts eroding..so I had to drive a hundred miles back home before I could hunt.

Also taught me to always take my shooting box/:oops:

[jbunny]

The once was enough to teach me a lesson. I didn't have a puller. I don't put liners in my flintlocks until the touch hole starts eroding..so I had to drive a hundred miles back home before I could hunt.

Also taught me to always take my shooting box/:oops:
Peter; me thinks u should attend a few big roundavous. it only takes a few seconds
to tap on the butstock to put in enough 4f to shoot the ball out. at the big RV
u always see someone shoot the ramrod. it must be peer presure that make
u loose concentrtion.
regards
jb

[peter nap]

Peter; me thinks u should attend a few big roundavous. it only takes a few seconds
to tap on the butstock to put in enough 4f to shoot the ball out. at the big RV
u always see someone shoot the ramrod. it must be peer presure that make
u loose concentrtion.
regards
jb

Always wanted to go to one. We have a few builders here but not a lot of get togethers.

Even the builders are starting to scatter. Don Stith went somewhere in Roanoke, Colonial Williamsburg laid off a lot of theirs, I quit building when my health went south.

Dennis is still building a Gelispie rifle now and then but his health hasn't been good either.

[bohica2xo]

I built a Fusil, got a lot of ***?!?! from the old timers when I put the third ball down the pipe... They sort of missed the odd nipple location.

Peter it sounds like you have built some nice rifles. Post some pics if you get a chance.
I have never seen any of the cheap imports that sealed in the right place. Making both areas seat at the same time is a lot of extra work in this application.

The conical seat is somewhat self cleaning / lapping. This is important when you remove it every shot. It also self centers, so the threads can be a 3A fit. Since shotshells have a flash hole integral to the primer, make the port larger - big enough to get powder down to the primer.

Good luck with your project.

B.

[remla75]

i have a savage muzzy make sure you use a real good antisize on the plug from experiance pull it every 20 25 shots and re treat that solves the carbon problem Goofed once and doubel charged it kicked good but still works well I love the gun it is one of the few tht fit me

[peter nap]

I

Peter it sounds like you have built some nice rifles. Post some pics if you get a chance.

Good luck with your project.

B.

All my pictures are on a non working External that is supposedly being repaired. The only one I have right now is from the last rifle I built. I gave that to my son and I guess I should get a finished picture of it.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/lastflinter.jpg

[Kernbigo]

metric's unlimited already make plugs for 50 cal they may make one for a 58 cal. I got 2 one 7/8 di. for my huntsman 50 cal and a 5/8 dia. for my handi- huntsman and use blackhorn 209 in both, it is next to smokeless. Kernbigo