Soft Point Failure

[Wolfgang]

Hello All,

I have lurked around here for quite some time and registered a long time ago but this is my first post. I cast up a batch of soft point bullets using a 429421 mould and muzzle loader round balls as donors for the soft point. I followed the method that BruceB's posts had spoken of and the soft point was up to the first driving band. All was well and the bullets looked good up to the point of running them though the sizer and lubing them.

The first one I ran through lost the nose when I raised the ram on the sizer.:evil: The nose was stuck in the top punch and the base remained in the sizing die. It broke free right at the joint of the two metals. This happened on five out of twenty four bullets. I was planning on using these on my upcoming deer hunt but now I'm afraid of them. I'm worried that they could come apart in flight as they spin down range or some other such problem. Do I need to worry about this with the remaining bullets or am I just being paranoid? The remaining bullets made it in and out of the sizer fine but.....

Any advice would be helpful as I have the gun sighted in with this bullet style just straight cast and I really don't have time to load up JHP's and sight it in again and beyond that, I really wanted to use my own cast bullets.

Thanks,

Wolfgang

[geargnasher]

Well it's about time we heard from you!!!

Until you get this worked out, I think you'll do just fine with regular 429421s on any deer you'll likely encounter in North America, just make certain they perform accuracy-wise. Then you'll have all winter to dope out your softnose loads.

I'm sure you figured out that the round ball is too big if it gets into the forward driving band. You want that band firm or your accuracy is out the window. The reason why your softnoses aren't sticking to the boolit body when poured may have something to do with oxides on the round balls and not enough heat. I know you said you followed Bruce's instructions but I have too and had similar issues, adequate heat and clean lead balls is essential to the bond if you do it this way.

Hope this helps.

Gear

[fatnhappy]

I did a number of 314299s figuring the fat .30 nose cast with pure lead would give me a useful nose diameter for my .30-06. The problem is the WW body is still a fat 30 and trying to size down .003" in a lyman with a pure lead nose requires a nose sizing punch rather than a top punch. I did not use pure lead ML balls like you did. I had a second pot of pure lead and cobbled a 32 acp case as a dipper.

The answer to sizing I believe is push through sizing with a lee die.

I'm not sure if all the time and effort turning out 50 of those boolits for load verification and hunting is really worthwhile compared to using a HP mould to promote expansion. I'm reserving judgement until I whack a couple deer with them.

YMMV.

[geargnasher]

The answer to sizing I believe is push through sizing with a lee die.

I'm not sure if all the time and effort turning out 50 of those boolits for load verification and hunting is really worthwhile compared to using a HP mould to promote expansion. I'm reserving judgement until I whack a couple deer with them.

YMMV.

+1 on the push-through die.

I have a 429421 Ideal Hollow point mould and my take on it is this: By the time you push it up to reasonable hunting velocities in a .44 Magnum you have two problems, either the accuracy goes south because the ideal alloy for expanding hollow points can't hold the rifling, or the front 40% of the boolit turns to dust when a hard-enough alloy is used. The possible exception is 16:1, haven't tried that one yet but the 20:1 made beautiful half-dollars that I never did get to shoot very well, and lots of leading-edge leading. One would do better to stick to j-words for hps in the 44 imo. If anyone has made them work at over 1100fps let me know.

I like the soft point idea for this, it's just a pain. I also would consider a WFN design, but others have far more experience actually hunting with them in this caliber than I do.

Gear

[Mk42gunner]

Wolfgang,

I had a similar problem when I first cast softnosed 452424; I was able to push the nose off with my thumb.

I worked out that the problem was with the oxidation on the swaged balls I was using for the nose, they were a very dark gray. When I looked into the mold to verify the pure lead for the nose had melted, there was a dark suface with a few shiny streaks visible.

In my opinion, what we are doing amounts to soldering the nose and bullet body together; therefore the metals have to be clean. My solution is to use freshly cast pure lead, Lee round ball molds are cheap. This is easy to do if you have two pots, a little more involved but doable with one pot.

What size round ball are you using? I am using .375" balls for a .36 caliber Navy and the joint is just forward of the front driving band. At a guess for your slightly smaller bullet I would use .360" balls.

Unfortunately I cannot tell you how these work on deer, I havem't seen Bambi or any of his relatives while carrying my .45.

Good Luck,


Robert

[Wolfgang]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Mk42gunner, I was using old 50 caliber round balls that I snipped in half with a pair of side cut pliers. This left me with soft lead clear up to just before the first driving band. I noticed that the nose metal had some brown stuff on it and the molten metal wasn't clean and shiny like I thought it should be.

[44man]

Yeah, about time you joined in! [smilie=w:
But you do not need a soft point in the .44, even a very hard BHN 28 will do the job on any animal. Smaller calibers or faster guns need some expansion.
We have taken too many deer with fantastic results to ever fool with a soft nose, using the .44, .45 and .475.
The .44 with expanding bullets has shown a lack of penetration and some angle shots have to be passed up.

[Wayne Smith]

Guys, you haven't read the instructions very clearly. The soft lead in the nose has to be molten when you pour the harder lead. The hard lead floats on the soft lead. Thus the instructions are to pour the soft lead and lower the mold into the melt to keep it molten. Yes, this takes a long time to cool. That is the price one pays.

I've done this with the 8mm Frankenstein boolit, sized it in my RCBS sizer, and had no problems.

[Wolfgang]

Sorry for being so tardy in joining the fun! I don't really get a lot of time to sit and just relax. And in this type of discussion, I am still learing way more than I know. As far as having to have a soft point for hunting with the 44 I know it's not needed and I have whacked a deer before with a plain cast bullet and it did its job. I just noted that it did not seem to have as an immediate effect as the JHP's that I had used in the past. On the other hand, I also shot that particular deer quartering toward me at about sixty yards and the cast bullet blew through the deer from just behind the shoulder and out the rear ham and lord knows haw far it went after that. I have no worries about penetration.

Wolfgang

[Leftoverdj]

I use the two pot and custom dipper method. I get a lot of culls, but when I do it right, the bullets are seamless. Only the color shift shows they are made of two different alloys. Next time I do a batch, I'll try floating the mould on top if the alloy while I'm getting the dipper of lead. That should reduce the culls.

[7br]

I read an article in the IHMSA News a couple years back about using pure lead for hunting bullets in a revolver. I have cast almost pure lead with my .41 and not had any leading problems. Expansion was pretty darned good with great weight retention. I don't think I would want to run a steady diet of them through my pistol, but for no more than I shoot during deer season, it should be fine.

[runfiverun]

i just soften up my alloy too.
25% pure to ww's aircooled works just fine if i wanted smush instead of penetration i'd up the pure,maybe to 100%,how many shots you gonna take during the season 5-6 at most.

[Ricochet]

With water dropping, as little as 1 part wheelweights to 4 parts pure works well. Given a few weeks to harden, it ends up about as hard as aircooled wheelweights.

[MK111]

Wolfgang I have taken 19 deer in Ohio with the 44 Mag. 16 was with the 240 gr. lead bullet and 3 was with the Lee 310 gr. I have never recovered a bullet and even taken two "Texas heart shots" and had end to end penetration. I have never seen the need for expansion and never had to worry about over expansion.
Hoping for number 20 tommorrow. Wish me luck.
I would just go with the solid bullet until you figure out the soft point. Me for one will just continue with the solid lead. Good luck on your deer hunt this year.

[Von Gruff]

My read on this problem of seperation of the soldered joint is that the soft lead nose has to solid up, so there is no mixing of the two, then the harder allow has to by added then when the sprue has hardened the whole bullet has to bought back till the sprue re-melts to ensure a melted - join. It is slow to do but as been said how many do you need for a season and a few hours spent casting should get enough for several seasons of hunting, unless of course you have many more animals you can harvest than I have.

Von Gruff.

[Wolfgang]

Thanks everyone. I am just going to use the normal alloy and let the bullet do what bullets do...make a big long straight hole! I am done fooling around with it for now. Everything is packed up and in the truck as the opening day of gun season is in the morning. I wish you luck MK111 and Von Gruff that is exactly how I cast these bullets. No matter at this point, I'll use what I have and then just for kicks and giggles, if lady luck smiles on me, I'll try and take my second deer with my Contender in 45-70 using 330gr. cast Gould HP's out my Lyman mould. Wish me luck and I'll let you all know how I make out.

Best,

Wolfgang

[murph]

Interesting comments on casting a soft nose bullet. When the cost of bullets started to become too hard on my pocketbook, I spent the last 2 years figuring out how to make a cast bullet that expanded as well as commercial stuff, and could be driven at the upper end of jacketed velocities.

Leftoverdj,

Yup, used the two pot method, and have found that if I run both pots real hot, (750degrees +) I did not have to remelt the soft lead nose. Have to hurry some from the dipper for the nose to the pouring of the hard lead, but I got them to weld without remelting.

In every case, rifle and pistol, if I make the base at around 24 brinnel I can push them right up there with the mid to over mid range velocities.

I also have the now obsolete 1980's Lyman two part molds in .44 and .38. With those, I can cast the base and cold water dorp it and get about 26 brinnel hardness, then you glue with epoxy that base to the soft nose lead. I took my 44Mag Ruger out with those bullets pushed with 20 gns of 2400. I shot them into 14 inches of water saturated phone books at about 12 feet. The bullet created a 5" exit hole in the phone books and buried itself into the end cut of a log. I was impressed.

I've also used this 2 pot method for making rifle as well as pistol bullets, with good results. I even made up an 88 gn .308 bullet for my 7.62 x 25. Cute little suckers. They are accurate and expand well.

I've practiced for a bit and can make around 50 good bullets and hour now. The first bullet took two hours by itself and wasn't usable.

About a year ago there was a fellow on this site that talked with me a few times about his experimenting on soft nose cast bullets. Anyone remember who he is?

[Wayne Smith]

That was probably BruceB - it's his idea and he developed it, wrote the sticky. I've only used it for small caliber rifle boolits - don't see the need when the caliber starts with a 4!

[44man]

Thanks everyone. I am just going to use the normal alloy and let the bullet do what bullets do...make a big long straight hole! I am done fooling around with it for now. Everything is packed up and in the truck as the opening day of gun season is in the morning. I wish you luck MK111 and Von Gruff that is exactly how I cast these bullets. No matter at this point, I'll use what I have and then just for kicks and giggles, if lady luck smiles on me, I'll try and take my second deer with my Contender in 45-70 using 330gr. cast Gould HP's out my Lyman mould. Wish me luck and I'll let you all know how I make out.

Best,

Wolfgang
Now that Contender is where you will start to see a big change but the hollow point is really going to help. I have shot a lot of deer with my BFR 45-70 and hard boolits just are not right, even a WFN just zips through so fast there is little damage inside the deer. They die but go too far, some of mine went 200 yards and I lost a couple over the years.
This year I used Babore's 350 gr hollow point cast of 50-50 WW's and pure, then oven hardened. That did the trick and it just might be too good with all the damage. I found in the revolver that this alloy mix needs a gas check, not because of leading but shots scatter with a PB. I don't think this will be a problem in the Contender.
Each and every deer teaches me more about the boolit used so next I will try the same alloy but without the hollow point or I might go the other way and hollow point a harder boolit.
The deer I shot the other day with a hard WFN in my .475 acted like it was hit with the hammer of Thor and ran headlong into trees and sticks before crashing hard but I dare not use a hard boolit in the 45-70 anymore, it is too fast. Accuracy is my problem in the 45-70, it is so good with the right alloy and velocity I do not want to change it so it is hard to reach a happy medium and keep accuracy yet kill deer fast.
Work will go on though.

[MK111]

Well I got that #20 handgun deer today. A nice 7 point at 29 yrds and it dropped in it's tracks. Like the other post states when the caliber starts with a "4" I don't see much use for expansion. Used a 240 gr in front of a load of H110. I for one don't want my bullets to stop. I like 2 holes in and out I think they bleed better that way. But everyone to their own. But I will check with my buddy and see if he has one of those older Lyman two part moulds as I might just change my mind yet.

[44man]

Well I got that #20 handgun deer today. A nice 7 point at 29 yrds and it dropped in it's tracks. Like the other post states when the caliber starts with a "4" I don't see much use for expansion. Used a 240 gr in front of a load of H110. I for one don't want my bullets to stop. I like 2 holes in and out I think they bleed better that way. But everyone to their own. But I will check with my buddy and see if he has one of those older Lyman two part moulds as I might just change my mind yet.
Very well done. Why change?

[softpoint]

I thought I'd really messed up this time, when Isaw the title of the the thread:bigsmyl2:

[HamGunner]

I took a medium sized Missouri whitetail doe two weeks ago with my revolver using a 429215gc bullet that weighed 225gr. with a charge of W-296 for just about 1,500 fps. Deer was hit broadside just below and slightly behind the heart. Made two holes and deer ran about 50 yds. I used WW with just a bit of linotype and water quenched. That bullet worked okay in the old Flattop Blackhawk but has better accuracy in my 94 Win. .44mag. and it cycles through the action great. I have always wanted to try a soft tipped cast and think I will be playing around a bit with two part bullets for next year, but will probably use the 429421 and 2400 in the revolver next year as it shoots that bullet well. Too long to work in the carbine action.

Good luck to all. Have a good season hunting.

[Wolfgang]

Well I'm back. Been sort of busy the last couple of days! No worries about the harder alloy bullet. S&W 629 with a five inch barrel and the 250 gr. cast bullet over 21 grains of H110 did its job from right at fifty yards. Backstraps for dinner!:D

Wolfgang

[44man]

Well I'm back. Been sort of busy the last couple of days! No worries about the harder alloy bullet. S&W 629 with a five inch barrel and the 250 gr. cast bullet over 21 grains of H110 did its job from right at fifty yards. Backstraps for dinner!:D

Wolfgang
Very nice and I am glad to see a fellow meat hunter. :-)

[Wolfgang]

44man, Don't getme wrong as I like a nice looking set of antlers as well as the next guy but I've tried boiling them, baking them, frying them, and even grilling them and they just never got tender or tasted good! All jokes aside, for good eating nothing beats a button buck or a young doe. Since it seems everyone is after antlers, I do my part of thinning Ohios deer herd buy taking does when possible. If a small racked buck and a doe stood side by side I'd wack the doe every time. Now if it was a real trophy buck......

Wolfgang

P.S. Still working on my second one with the 45-70 Contender.

[fredj338]

+1 on the push-through die.

I have a 429421 Ideal Hollow point mould and my take on it is this: By the time you push it up to reasonable hunting velocities in a .44 Magnum you have two problems, either the accuracy goes south because the ideal alloy for expanding hollow points can't hold the rifling, or the front 40% of the boolit turns to dust when a hard-enough alloy is used. The possible exception is 16:1, haven't tried that one yet but the 20:1 made beautiful half-dollars that I never did get to shoot very well, and lots of leading-edge leading. One would do better to stick to j-words for hps in the 44 imo. If anyone has made them work at over 1100fps let me know.

I like the soft point idea for this, it's just a pain. I also would consider a WFN design, but others have far more experience actually hunting with them in this caliber than I do.

Gear
Put a GC on a 25-1 & you get good exp & no leading. Shallow cup point in wetpack @ 10yds.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg

[44man]

44man, Don't getme wrong as I like a nice looking set of antlers as well as the next guy but I've tried boiling them, baking them, frying them, and even grilling them and they just never got tender or tasted good! All jokes aside, for good eating nothing beats a button buck or a young doe. Since it seems everyone is after antlers, I do my part of thinning Ohios deer herd buy taking does when possible. If a small racked buck and a doe stood side by side I'd wack the doe every time. Now if it was a real trophy buck......

Wolfgang

P.S. Still working on my second one with the 45-70 Contender.
I am worse then that! :bigsmyl2: I have let 10 point bucks walk and shot the doe with him. Had my share of big Ohio bucks ( I am from Ohio.) that I had to give the meat away because even a pressure cooker would not make them edible. I think I made some enemies when they tried to eat the stuff. I got over horn hunting long ago and if I have to gut, haul, butcher and cook the meat, I want to eat it.
I just wonder how many of those bucks on the hunting shows are wasted?
Then another thing is really bothering me about those shows. I have always used strong bows and heavy arrows as well as heavy cast boolits for complete penetration. My arrows will go through deer with a Texas heart shot. Now pay attention to the 3" into deer these guys are sticking arrows. I can't believe a shot behind the leg barely gets in. I will never believe they find all they shoot.
In the last few years since the light, fast arrows have come into use I have found 6" of broken off arrows inside chest cavities of three deer. I am afraid to stick my hands inside deer now.
With around 230, 240 deer kills with a bow, I am disgusted with archers and do not go to any archery sites anymore.
Then those little bitty broad heads not much larger then a .38 or expandable heads that stop.
I feel the same way about boolits, they must work, do a lot of damage and PENETRATE.
Good hunting and go shoot more doe or young bucks.

[Wolfgang]

Still trying! Hunted with a couple of the neighbors today for the first time which always makes me nervous! They are meat hunters as well but they use 12 gauges and were looking at my contender like I'd brought a cap gun or something. They thought a little differently when when I showed them the cartridges. I assured them if anything was put out in front of me at a self imposed range restriction of 100 yards or less, and I did my part, there would be brown on the ground. Never got to show them today though. Saw deer, but they were a long way out and the doe that did end up coming close enough for a shot was hauling the mail and I wouldn't take the chance on wounding her so I let her pass. Tommorow is another day.

[superior]

I use the Ross Seyfried method of making softpoints and I cant get them to separate with a vice and a hammer. The way I do it is as follows: I let my flat bottom ladle float in the molten ww alloy, then I throw in a section of stick-on ww into the ladle to melt. After pouring it into the cavity, I quickly (very quickly) dip into the harder alloy below and finish filling the cavity. I have yet to hunt with them, but according to Ross, he never had any problems in Africa using the quick pour method. I get no visible seem between the 2 alloys but there is definitely a difference in color. I figure if it worked for him, it should also work for me.

[Von Gruff]

I have just had my first sucessful soft nose casting session. I use the bore riding Lyman 287641 160gn Silh mould and cast up a number of doner bullets in a 50/50 PB and a 90/10 ww/lino blend. Made a jig to cut of a 65gn portion of the nose and after putting one in each nose cavity I topped it up with lino and placed in into the Full lino pot to re-melt, which only takes about 2 minutes. Have a complete one piece bullet for the 7x57 and with the same 2415 fps of the straight lino bullet, and a 150yd zero, it should give me a usable 250 yd meat bullet. We often get onto small mobs of goats ( up to 15 animals ) out to a distance that my 44 mag ( mod 92 rossi) and 404 Jeffery are stretched a bit especially on moving animals with the open sights. I agree that anything starting with 4 dosent need a soft nose but the 7mm certainly dose.

Von Gruff.