Gibbs "new" 1903A4

[Mike Venturino]

While doing photos today we got some of that new Gibbs Rifle Company M1903A4.

Here's a close up of it with the copy of the 2.5X Weaver scope.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/11-28-09gp04572dpi.jpg

And here's a photo of it with my original Remington '03A4.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/11-28-09gp00272dpi.jpg

MLV

[mag44uk]

Drooling here!
Nice photos but do tell us how they compare shooting wise.
Regards,
Tony

[Bullshop]

How about $

[MtGun44]

I'm betting over $1000, maybe closer to $1200.

Kinda hard for me to swallow right now.

Bill

[Mike Venturino]

Tony: With the right loads the new Gibbs shoots like this. My original '03A4 is lucky to shoot groups twice that size. That's at 100 yards.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/11-28-09gp059.jpg

MLV

[Nora]

I'm liking that scope mount. Any idea who makes that? Sure wouldn't mind changing mine for one of those. The current set up I've got sits a little to high for my liking.

Nora

[Mike Venturino]

Full retail according to the Gibbs Rifle Company's website is $999. Contrary to popular opinion gunwriters don't get loads of free guns. At least I don't. I did get a decent price quote for this rifle and shipped them off a check for it.

As for the mount, it is stamped Gibbs Rifle Company, Martinsburg, WV, so I would check with them for availability.

MLV

[Adam Nehrt]

I have been a long time reader & believe all of you people need to know about this.I own a gun shop & am a accomplished gunsmith,collector.I orderd one of these rifles 6 months ago after reading all the praise. This rifle showed up at my store 1 week ago. The ads for this rifle are enough to make anyone want one. After seeing the genuine article and studying the rifle I deemed the specimen I recieved unsafe to fire!I want to list these problems so that other people can be aware of this!--My rifle bolt was a 1903 bolt not a 1903-A3 and was not clearanced to fit the action/stock, therefore the bolt lacked 5 to10 degrees from closing. This was the first thing I noticed,-- the trigger was covered with fresh rust,there was rust on the scope adjustment knob,the stock was not fitted to the action very well at the rear of the action & the rear action screw wasn't in but four threads.When i contacted GIBBS about the condition they put Me in contact with the head of returns & she told Me that these rifles are recovered drill rifles & what did I expect!! She told Me she didn't want to hear about the rifle,if I didn't like it to send it back to the distributor,she dosent accept any returns at GIBBS directly, AND HUNG UP ON ME!! I have pictures of the things I an writing about & the serial # of this rifle I will be posting them monday. If anyone wants to talk to me about this call 618-244-2844 &ask for ADAM MY shop is open 9:am to 6:pm M-F. THANKS A.N.

[Adam Nehrt]

By the way the GIBBS rifle retails for $950.00 OTD in My shop.

[Mike Venturino]

Adam: I'm really sorry you had to deal with that. I can only say that the one I received is a nice rifle. Its the only one I've seen so far but I've talked to a couple of other people who also are happy with the ones they got. I hope you come out ok on that deal.

Mike Venturino

[mto7464]

By the way the GIBBS rifle retails for $950.00 OTD in My shop.

Is that with tax?

[Adam Nehrt]

Mike-I am soo irritated about this deal that I can not say here the audacity of it all.I sent the rifle back on thursday last week & they told me that they were not going to be able to replace my rifle because all 236 rifles are allocuted with no reserve.GIBBS said they were shipping 20 more rifles to MY distributor but they will all be spoken for, this is a very very poor way of doing buisness,but this is par for GIBBS as said by MY customer service rep.I am appauled as to the unability to even try to help me or anything!!! NEW NEWS --- I attended the gun show at the machinist's hall in bridgeton MO. today and spotted another 1903A4 GIBBS that also had the same problem with the bolt not fitted properly,it also was a 1903 bolt and lacked closeing by about 5 or 10 degrees.I brought this to the attention of the other dealer who showed it to another dealer who also stated that the gun was not to be fired! If the bolt is not closed fully there is only 80% of the locking lug on the right side of the bolt & 50% on the left because the ejector cut splits the locking lug in half!!! We have all read the articles about the locking lug contact & it's imporntance!! IF ANYONE OWNS ONE OF THESE PLEASE CHECK YOUR RIFLE & NOTIFY YOUR DEALERS IF YOU SEE ONE ON THE SHELF!!! No one needs to have a problem like this with a rifle that costs so much. I AM STILL APPAULED BY ALL OF THIS & HOPE IT IS NOTICED!!

[Adam Nehrt]

mto7464-$950.00 tax,transfer,& all otd-out the door.

[mag44uk]

Tony: With the right loads the new Gibbs shoots like this. My original '03A4 is lucky to shoot groups twice that size. That's at 100 yards.

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/MLV1/11-28-09gp059.jpg

MLV

:smile: Thats a nice group Mike.Thanks for sharing the photo.
Regards,
Tony

[elk hunter]

I'm liking that scope mount. Any idea who makes that? Sure wouldn't mind changing mine for one of those. The current set up I've got sits a little to high for my liking.

Nora

When I first heard about these rifles I emailed Gibbs and asked about the rings, I was told that the rings and presumably the base were not available as separate items at that time, but might be available after the first of the year. The base and rings are copies of the old Redfield Junior series which was available with 3/4", 7/8" and 1" rings. I'm looking for a set of the 3/4" rings to complete my 03-A4. Speaking of the 03-A4 there is one for sale at the "Clifton Armory" in Clifton Arizona. The rifle is complete with a newer issue scope, asking price is $4000.00 plus tax. The Armory is only open weekends. Sorry, I don't have the phone number.

[Adam Nehrt]

Here you are,have a look

[Adam Nehrt]

I have done buisness with clifton armory before & they are very good to deal with!

[lead-1]

There is a Gibbs setup for sale on this site in the classifieds, it is for the 3/4" scope tube.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68845

[Mike Venturino]

Adam: How do you tell an '03 bolt from an '03A3 bolt? I looked over my rifles today (4-'03s, 2-03A3s, and 1-03A4) and I can't see any differences except finish. What exactly do I look for. And I can't find any details in Canfield's or Brophy's books.

Again, I hate that you have to deal with such problems.
Mike V.

[StarMetal]

From what I've researched there are not differences in the bolts except the A3's will have cosmetic differences to the handles. They should all work in the both actions.

From CMP:
Bolt
1903 - Milled with a scolloped locking lug forward of the receiver, early bolts had handles that went straight down, later models had swept back handles.
1903A3 - Milled with scolloped locking lug on early models and squared lug on later and replacement models with a swept back handle. A wide shallow groove just forward of the rear locking lug is a quick identifier of a 03A3 bolt.


Maybe someone can clear this up.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Joe: Thanks for that. I'll check my rifles again in the morning.
MLV

[StarMetal]

Joe: Thanks for that. I'll check my rifles again in the morning.
MLV

Mike,

It may be that an 03 bolt in an 03A3 receiver may need part of the receiver and stock relieved for the bolt handle to close all the way so the lugs are in proper full engagement. Check for that. You know on that rifle when the bolt is open the lugs are 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. When locked into the breech they are 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock. So visualize when locked into the breech on your rifle where those two lugs are.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

According to what Joe related about the groove ahead of the rear locking lug of an 03A3 bolt, my Gibbs does have an 03 bolt. It does lock up properly, however. Looking over my other seven 03s and 03A3s it appears my Remington 1903Modified also has an 03A3 bolt. By my research these last couple of days it appears that 03 and 03A3 bolts are interchangeable IF PROPERLY FITTED. That's perfectly understandable for military rifles and something good to know. I have two spare bolts laying around and now I know that one is an 03A3 bolt and the other is an 03 bolt. Thanks for the info, Joe.

As for wood to metal fit, looking over my seven rifles, the Gibbs is comparable to my two 03A3s and 03A4. It is a bit worse than the 03s.

Lots to learn about this stuff. That's why its so interesting.
MLV

[Adam Nehrt]

Here is the difference, in picture #1 the 1903 bolt is the one on the left with the full third lug ,picture #2 will show the difference in the bolt handle the 1903 is on the left in this picture also.The third photo just highlights the difference in the shape of the bolt handles,the 1903 bolt is on top. I have removed the extractors & firing pin assembly for ease of distinction between the two.Hope this helps!!

[Dutchman]

hello Adam

Fascinating thread as its taken this turn.

Show a photo of both bolts, por favor, showing the gas escape holes on the underside of the bolt head. And the top of the bend of the bolt handle where it intersects the receiver. And any letters stamped into the bolt body, especially the safety lug.

The two types of safety lugs you're showing both occur on 03A3 bolt bodies.

Brophy page 45 shows the gas hole config of 5 different bolt bodies so that'll tell a tale in itself. Brophy page 180 shows both your types as 03A3.

My 1918 double heat treat has a 03A3 bolt that looks different on the underside of the bolt handle from either of your two but its marked R for Remington. If one of your bolts is 03A3 then it should have either the same R or a subcontractor's identifying mark, per Brophy.

Excellent resource:
http://vishooter.home.att.net/m1903.html

Dutch

[StarMetal]

Here is the difference, in picture #1 the 1903 bolt is the one on the left with the full third lug ,picture #2 will show the difference in the bolt handle the 1903 is on the left in this picture also.The third photo just highlights the difference in the shape of the bolt handles,the 1903 bolt is on top. I have removed the extractors & firing pin assembly for ease of distinction between the two.Hope this helps!!

Adam,

Thanks for the pics. There's not a lot of difference. As for that third lug it doesn't matter what it's shaped like. I suppose you showed that to show the differences. The bolts are sold as interchangeable, but it's understood like Mike V said...with some minor fitting...and of course check the headspace.

I would have been somewhat upset as you with the rifle you got, BUT the things wrong could have been fixed by yourself with very little effort. About the most inconvenience would be running to the gunsmiths to have him check the head space after you tuned the bolt fitting. I do agree the customer service was worse then bad.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Thanks to all you guys. Now I've got seven bolts plus two spares to go examine. Nothing better to do with snow falling today.

MLV

[StarMetal]

Thanks to all you guys. Now I've got seven bolts plus two spares to go examine. Nothing better to do with snow falling today.

MLV

....that and casting bullets Mike.

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Well, I just checked all eight of my "Springfields." That includes 4-03s, 2-03A3s, 1-03-A4, and the Gibbs. Plus I have two "spare" bolts, one of which is in a complete Remington '03 action (not 03A3). ALL have the later style "scalloped" rear locking lug, except the loose spare bolt. I guess these things go switched around a lot as was par for military rifles.

While on this topic I could tell you guys some good stories about getting consignment guns from companies for help in writing articles. These usually come on a 60 to 120 day loan period and then the writer can buy if he chooses. I seldom do.

Once I got a replica .45 Colt single action from EMF that had not the slightest trace of rifling in the barrel. Another Beretta SA replica had a trigger pull of less than a pound. From my machine rest it shot two to three inch groups at 25 yards. What was interesting was that another gunwriter reported one inch 25 yard groups with it from sandbag rest and that was an average of five-five shot groups. Mind you that was THE SAME EXACT GUN not just another sample of the same model.

Once I got a Ruger Super Blackhawk New Model whose loading gate was frozen solid. I flat could not get it open. It had to go back to the factory.

Another time I got a Remington Rolling Block .45-70 that had been polished so heavily that there wasn't a crisp edge on it anywhere. My friends said it looked like a "reblued Mexican Army rifle."

Last year I got a S&W AR with which they sent a target along showing a group. Its trigger was frozen solid. I sent it back and when they looked they found a spent primer behind the trigger. Somebody, most likely the group shooter, got a butt chewing for sending that one.

I could come up with a lot more examples but those come easiest to mind. That's why I did buy the Gibbs rifle. It looked nice, worked well and shot well.

By the way, I reported on every one of those defective guns in articles in magazines and the editors cut out everything I said that was negative. That's why I quit those magazines and signed on with the two outfits I work for now. I gave S&W the benefit of the doubt on the AR because it wasn't a gun problem.

Thanks
MLV

[Adam Nehrt]

Here are the other 2 pic's as requested the darker of the two is the 03A3,and to answer the proposal of fixing the rifle-- I am a certified gunsmith that owns(with my partner) A&S Gunsmithing a full service gun shop.I contemplated fixing the rifle but the thing cost me $800.00 wholesale and I don't believe that I should have to be the quality control & repair for a company that goes to the extent of produceing & advertising "A FAITHFUL & ACCURATE REPRODUCTION OF THE ORIGINAL ! & won't make it right the first time, after all the rifle says GIBBS 1903A4 not A&S Gunsmithing repaired & corrected 1903A4. THEN adjust the price of the rifle to cover my time for what I had to do to make this gun a saleable item!!! The advertisement that I read stated that the rifle was supposed to have original style cartouches and marks that were as the originals,and there was only one CMP STAMP & nothing else.All in all this has been a very disheartning experiance for me & my customers!!! A.N.

[quasi]

Adam , quit whining and fix it or don't. If you want a real one, buy a real one.

[Dutchman]

Here are the other 2 pic's as requested the darker of the two is the 03A3,


BF46 was made by Bonney Forge in early 1942 & supplied to Springfield Armory as replacement bolts.

Both bolt bodies have what Brophy notes as a single 11/64 gas escape hole and neither are original 1903/05 or 1903A1 bolt bodies.

You won't see rough machining marks on a Springfield Armory 1903/05 or 1903A1 bolt, or for that matter Remington 1903(m). The "scalloped" safety lug is the original type. The squared off one is WW2 expedient mfg.


Dutch

[Mike Venturino]

Dutch: Thanks. That clears up one question for me. I need to sit down with my bolts (one at a time so I don't mix them) and make some notes so I can check matters further. The bottom line is that all my rifles with the possible exception of the original 03A4 shoot fine. Its not so precise, which is one reason I bought the Gibbs.

Thanks again. You are a wealth of knowledge on these.
Mike V.

[Dutchman]

You are a wealth of knowledge on these.



Not exactly :wink:

My first 1903 Springfield was s/n 394506 mfg December 1909. It was absolutely cherry. I was 16 and it was 1968. I shot full power handloads with surplus 4831 and 190 gr Sierra Match Kings. The two books I've had longest in my firearms library are Sixguns by Keith and Hatcher's Notebook. I'm very partial to 1903 Springfields though I do most of my shooting with Mausers.

Brophy's book is the best researched book and most complete on the 1903 but you need Hatcher's Notebook as a companion. I have Canfield's Infantry Weapons of WW2 which has the 1903 but I'll eventually get his WW1 book as well.

"Rick the Librarian" is the sharpest guy on the net I've seen on Springfields but I don't think he hangs his hat in this forum.

Dutch

[What Cheer]

The bolts for the M1903 and M1903A3 are interchangeable from one model rifle to the other, providing the head space is checked and found to be correct.

The WW2 bolts utilized some manufacturing shortcuts to speed production, and are not as well finished as pre-war Springfield or Rock Island production.

Latest information regarding the bolt marked 'BF 46' is that the bolt was manufactured by Springfield Armory during WW2 with steel supplied by Bonney Forge.

John Beard has done extensive research on the subject of M1903/M1903A3 bolt heat lot numbers and is the source of the above regarding 'BF 46' bolts.

Every original M1903A4 I have observed, including the one I still own, has a relief cut in the action for the A4 bolt.

Best Regards,

What Cheer

[Mike Venturino]

My first "Springfield" came at Christmas time in 1971 when I was visiting a girlfriend in Salt Lake City. I bought it for $40 and don't even remember the maker at this late date. Nothing was ever fired through it except Lyman 311291 bullets.

How times have changed. I brought it back to WV on the airplane in a cardboard box. The crew stashed it in a closet in the cabin and then I hand carried it from plane change to plane change through the airports.

MLV

[doubs43]

Mike V, your accounts of guns that you've gotten from various sources for testing reminds me of Jack O'Connor's "The Last Book". He had some rather interesting stories about gun writers, magazines and gun makers; stories that he obviously couldn't have in print when his livelihood was writing books and articles for gun magazines.

Like you, Jack said that he never accepted a free gun that he evaluated for an article and in the rare instances when he kept a gun, he paid for it. All others were returned.

BTW, a quick check of "abebooks" shows that "The Last Book" is being listed at $75 and up.

[Mike Venturino]

After going through all my 03 type rifles and my two spare bolts I've come to the conclusion that an 03 bolt is an 03 bolt is an 03 bolt. That's if they are fitted and headspaced right. So I'm resting my mind on the subject.

MLV

[pietro]

FWIW, this thread has been VERY interesting reading, even for an old dog like me (who was a late-comer to Springfield 03's, my first in 1962).

Thanks for posting !

.

[TAWILDCATT]

gibbs rifle comp./OWS/navy arms/val forgett.are one and the same.
I got one of the parade rifles,which is what those were.mine was milled across the bottom to take out the receiver where the lugs are and the right side rail.
The ATF discovered that the guns were being restored and have had a pep talk with the restorers.so you all may get a visit from the ATF.[my take]they dont want citizens to have these rifles restored.
so Adam I feel for you as I had visions of restoring. I have a new barrel and spare bolts.they must have done a job on the working ones,as the bolt release was welded and the bolt had welded the firing pin hole.the barrel was welded to the receiver and had a rod welded in.look at the face of the bolt and see if it shows any sign of repair.the barrel has to be new.good luck to you all.

[Coolhand]

Ok guys, I'm new here and a little confused. I happen to have one of the Gibbs rifles on order, are they safe to shoot? Like many of you here, my passion is collecting old military guns as well as Winchesters and Sharps. My real passion is hunting with the guns. I've taken whitetail with everything from 45-70 Sharps to the M1 Garand. I've always wanted a 1903A4 but could never afford one. I thought this Gibbs rifle might be the ticket. Now i'm unsure. Any advice? BTW, I noticed that Mike V. posts on here regulary. He's my hero, I think i've read every article he ever wrote and would love to have his job. LOL, Anyway, I think I share ya'll passion for these guns and would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks

[StarMetal]

Ok guys, I'm new here and a little confused. I happen to have one of the Gibbs rifles on order, are they safe to shoot? Like many of you here, my passion is collecting old military guns as well as Winchesters and Sharps. My real passion is hunting with the guns. I've taken whitetail with everything from 45-70 Sharps to the M1 Garand. I've always wanted a 1903A4 but could never afford one. I thought this Gibbs rifle might be the ticket. Now i'm unsure. Any advice? BTW, I noticed that Mike V. posts on here regulary. He's my hero, I think i've read every article he ever wrote and would love to have his job. LOL, Anyway, I think I share ya'll passion for these guns and would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks

Coolhand,

What you do it go to the shop that have these for sale and check it out for yourself. Check for all the negative things some have mentioned here. Make your own decision, not have forum members make it for you.

Joe

[oldhickory]

Ok guys, I'm new here and a little confused. I happen to have one of the Gibbs rifles on order, are they safe to shoot? Like many of you here, my passion is collecting old military guns as well as Winchesters and Sharps. My real passion is hunting with the guns. I've taken whitetail with everything from 45-70 Sharps to the M1 Garand. I've always wanted a 1903A4 but could never afford one. I thought this Gibbs rifle might be the ticket. Now i'm unsure. Any advice? BTW, I noticed that Mike V. posts on here regulary. He's my hero, I think i've read every article he ever wrote and would love to have his job. LOL, Anyway, I think I share ya'll passion for these guns and would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks

The current issue of G&A Surplus Guns Has a good article on the Gibbs 03-A4 and even side by side comparison with a WWII vintage Remington 03-A4. Might be worth you while to get the magazine, I got my copy at the check out at wally world, (of all places).

[Mike Venturino]

Coolhand: I have an article coming out in GUNS Magazine using both original and Gibbs 03A4s. You can see the photos of mine there but that won't be for a few months.

Mine is a fine rifle. Otherwise I would not have paid for it nor would I have given it the good write-up I have. That said, it is also the only one I have seen yet. I've fired about 400 rounds through mine in a month. No problems whatsoever. Someone complained about the wood to metal fit of theirs. I have two original 03A3s and one 03A4. The fit of wood on my Gibbs is no worse than those and actually better than one. Some of my 03s likewise don't have great wood to metal fit.

There are no welded up places on my Gibbs and it functions perfectly. Be aware of this: There were drill rifles and there were drill rifles. Some may have been altered as was the one the fellow above was talking about. It seems to me he is referring to an action only and not a completed rifle. But his postings focus more on his glee in ratting to the ATF than in what he is actually talking about.

Back in the 1990s I bought an O3A3 "drill rifle." It simply had a plug welded in the chamber and no other alteration. All it required was proper fitting with a new barrel.

I will be going to the SHOT Show next month and intend to find out more about this matter. Gibbs Rifle Company made no secret that they were building these rifles on "drill rifle" actions but that's all I know for sure. As someone else said above don't rely on the Internet for expertise. It can be here and also what can be here is pure nonsense.

Thanks for your kind words about me. However, there's nothing heroic about me at all. The most heroic act I've ever performed was to hit a Colt (young horse) in the head with a rock when it was about to jump in front of an oncoming train to get with its mother. That was the only time I've ever hit what I intended to with a rock.

As for my job. Well, you are right. Its a darn good one!
MLV

[Coolhand]

Thanks for the replies guys. While I agree that the Internet can be full of bad information, I understand that it is also the best possible way to connect with people that have "been there, done that". As you know, these rifles are just hitting the market and finding one to look at is tuff. I don't know a single dealer in Texas that has one in their shop. I appreciate the honest comments, both good and bad. I guess i'll just inspect the gun when it arrives, and make my decision then. You guys certainly have educated me on what to look for. BTW, if anybody knows where there is one in a shop for sale, let me know. I think there is like a 4 month waiting list. And BTW Mike, I read a review on another board from a guy who received his. He was equally impressed with everything but the scope, and his 100 yd. groups were impressive also. I await your article... Thanks

[EMC45]

Coolhand: I have an article coming out in GUNS Magazine using both original and Gibbs 03A4s. You can see the photos of mine there but that won't be for a few months.

Mine is a fine rifle. Otherwise I would not have paid for it nor would I have given it the good write-up I have. That said, it is also the only one I have seen yet. I've fired about 400 rounds through mine in a month. No problems whatsoever. Someone complained about the wood to metal fit of theirs. I have two original 03A3s and one 03A4. The fit of wood on my Gibbs is no worse than those and actually better than one. Some of my 03s likewise don't have great wood to metal fit.

There are no welded up places on my Gibbs and it functions perfectly. Be aware of this: There were drill rifles and there were drill rifles. Some may have been altered as was the one the fellow above was talking about. It seems to me he is referring to an action only and not a completed rifle. But his postings focus more on his glee in ratting to the ATF than in what he is actually talking about.

Back in the 1990s I bought an O3A3 "drill rifle." It simply had a plug welded in the chamber and no other alteration. All it required was proper fitting with a new barrel.

I will be going to the SHOT Show next month and intend to find out more about this matter. Gibbs Rifle Company made no secret that they were building these rifles on "drill rifle" actions but that's all I know for sure. As someone else said above don't rely on the Internet for expertise. It can be here and also what can be here is pure nonsense.

Thanks for your kind words about me. However, there's nothing heroic about me at all. The most heroic act I've ever performed was to hit a Colt (young horse) in the head with a rock when it was about to jump in front of an oncoming train to get with its mother. That was the only time I've ever hit what I intended to with a rock.

As for my job. Well, you are right. Its a darn good one!
MLV




Have a buddy with a drill rifle. It is chromed. The bore is like new and it locks up tight as a safe! No alterations have ever been made to this 03 other than chroming it. It shoots quite well from what he has said too.

[Coolhand]

Adam, I was looking at the pics comparing the 03 and 03A3 bolts. The underside of 03 bolt handle where bends down is not machined smooth like on the 03A3. Is this where it contacts the stock and causes the bolt to not latch all the way? Thanks

[leadman]

On the CMP website in the sales section for 1903s & A3s, they state the differernce in the early 1903 bolts is the bolt handle in bent straight down, not swept back.
According to the CMP the straight bent bolts possibly could be the early bolts that should not be used in a gun that is going to be fired.
They also say some of these bolts could be o.k. for use but there is no way to identify this.

So Mike, want to check your bolts again??

[Mike Venturino]

Already did that. All my '03s, 03A3s, and 03A4s have the swept back handles.

MLV

[StarMetal]

On the CMP website in the sales section for 1903s & A3s, they state the differernce in the early 1903 bolts is the bolt handle in bent straight down, not swept back.
According to the CMP the straight bent bolts possibly could be the early bolts that should not be used in a gun that is going to be fired.
They also say some of these bolts could be o.k. for use but there is no way to identify this.

So Mike, want to check your bolts again??

This has basically been discussed and we came to the conclusion that when swapping a bolt that you should make sure it fully closes in the total locking position and the bolt handle lets it accomplish that. Of course check for head space too.

Now don't know what to make of this thread, are some people jealous they don't have one of the mentioned rifles or what? Was it really to inform people there could be a potential problem. If so how come you don't see mention of bolts when someone says "hey got me a nice 1903 can't wait to shoot it"?

Your rifles sound fine Mike.

Joe

[Adam Nehrt]

Adam, I was looking at the pics comparing the 03 and 03A3 bolts. The underside of 03 bolt handle where bends down is not machined smooth like on the 03A3. Is this where it contacts the stock and causes the bolt to not latch all the way? Thanks

Coolhand-the 1903 stocks were relieved for the bolt design & when the 1903A3 rifles were made the bolts were made smooth on the bottom to speed up the mfg process,less machining = more parts.The rifle that I recieved was not checked when it left the factory nor was the one I identified at the bridgeton gun show. the 2 bolts are interchangeable but some extra fitting is required when using a 1903 bolt in a 1903a3 rifle. As noted this could have been fixed but I paid for a "new" rifle, no sense of working on something that should have been right from the first place, "we don't have time to do it right the first time but we will fix it after we have your money!!". This is my precieved notion instilled in Me by gibbs.

[dualsport]

Well said. I am as of now a big fan. "To ride, shoot straight, and tell the truth". Keep up the good work.

[Coolhand]

Hey Guys,
I see most of thes guns coming with light colored stock finishes. Is there anything a guy could rub them down with to make the stocks darker without doing a complete strip? Thanks

[Mike Venturino]

Coolhand: There's nothing to strip off of them. At most they have had a little oil put on. You could probably darken them with any number of solutions. I'm sure many of the other guys can recommend good ones. I seldom mess with things like that so I have none.

[leadman]

Go to the CMP forum and look for Fairtrimmer's stock finish. I've seen pictures of some outstanding stocks finished with this. Pretty well matches the color of an aged stock.

As far as the bolt not being fitted to the action properly this only seems to be an issue with guns that were messed with outside of government arsenals or qualified gunsmiths.

Seen some that "bubba" got to and could not understand why people do this.

It is a shame that an issue like this has come up with the Gibbs rifles. This is a basic safety issue that a company like this should not have let out the door.

Then again, I bought a used Left hand Ruger MKII in 300 Win. Mag. that the bolt did not close all the way due to interference with the stock. The salesman (who I knew) had told me the guy traded in in since it was inaccurate. The salesman knew I enjoy toying with guns so he sold it to me right. I fixed the inletting before shooting it (did not want to test my luck) and it has always been very accurate for me.

In this case if it can be corrected with minimal effort the results might be gratifying and worth the effort.

[TAWILDCATT]

Mike I am disapointed in you.I went back and read my post.no where did I say I contacted the ATF.I actually called the dealer where I bought the gun and HE told me.My gun was a vast disapointment. as I intended to restore it.I have spare barrels and bolts.I wanted the rear peep. I do have a 1903 dated barrel 1914.
I took it hunting and went to fire it and found it would not shoot. the bolt was not fully closed.so theres no danger there.I cut the stock and my gun shoots 1" groups at 100 yds. with my handloads.look real close at the cut off piece.you may discover it has slight marks where it was welded.and the bolt face.its only a small bead which I knew I could take off.
as for the springfields. as much as I like them,I would never pay that price.I bought two 1903A3 from DCM for $10 and $15.brand new not a scratch mark on bolts so maybe I am spoiled.I bought a 73 win in 32/20 in alabama in 1945 for $5.00 at a gun store and a colt lightning for $3.00.I came from a time when we were free.and I will probably leave before slavery.
and I would not call the ATF if I was dieing.I know some of them.

[TAWILDCATT]

Mike I am disapointed in you.I went back and read my post.no where did I say I contacted the ATF.I actually called the dealer where I bought the gun and HE told me.My gun was a vast disapointment. as I intended to restore it.I have spare barrels and bolts.I wanted the rear peep. I do have a 1903 dated barrel 1914.
I took it hunting and went to fire it and found it would not shoot. the bolt was not fully closed.so theres no danger there.I cut the stock and my gun shoots 1" groups at 100 yds. with my handloads.look real close at the cut off piece.you may discover it has slight marks where it was welded.and the bolt face.its only a small bead which I knew I could take off.
as for the springfields. as much as I like them,I would never pay that price.I bought two 1903A3 from DCM for $10 and $15.brand new not a scratch mark on bolts so maybe I am spoiled.I bought a 73 win in 32/20 in alabama in 1945 for $5.00 at a gun store and a colt lightning for $3.00.I came from a time when we were free.and I will probably leave before slavery.
and I would not call the ATF if I was dieing.I know some of them.
I just gave the 03A3 away to the Vietnam vets for use in parades.

[StarMetal]

Mike I am disapointed in you.I went back and read my post.no where did I say I contacted the ATF.I actually called the dealer where I bought the gun and HE told me.My gun was a vast disapointment. as I intended to restore it.I have spare barrels and bolts.I wanted the rear peep. I do have a 1903 dated barrel 1914.
I took it hunting and went to fire it and found it would not shoot. the bolt was not fully closed.so theres no danger there.I cut the stock and my gun shoots 1" groups at 100 yds. with my handloads.look real close at the cut off piece.you may discover it has slight marks where it was welded.and the bolt face.its only a small bead which I knew I could take off.
as for the springfields. as much as I like them,I would never pay that price.I bought two 1903A3 from DCM for $10 and $15.brand new not a scratch mark on bolts so maybe I am spoiled.I bought a 73 win in 32/20 in alabama in 1945 for $5.00 at a gun store and a colt lightning for $3.00.I came from a time when we were free.and I will probably leave before slavery.
and I would not call the ATF if I was dieing.I know some of them.
I just gave the 03A3 away to the Vietnam vets for use in parades.


If one didn't know the full facts what you take post #6 to mean here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=742166#post742166

Joe

[Mike Venturino]

Well, Wildcat, if you didn't call the ATF, then I'm much less disappointed in you. Your post made it sound like that's exactly what you did. I'm not alone in reading it that way.

MLV

[jgaynor]

Comments re a couple of points from the ongoing discussion:

Is the stock preventing closure of the bolt a safety hazard? (e.g. will the bolt blow back?) I don't think so. i beleive the basic design will prevent the striker from touching the primer if the bolt is not sufficiently closed. Of course, the gun will not fire until either the bolt, the stock or both are modified to provide clearance. This could be tested by "firing" a primed case (no propellant).

I believe the cause of this issue is the modified bolt that Gibbs is using. Real A4 bolts are 1. unavailable and 2. too valuable for use in a replica (figure $400~ a pop). The bolts used are more than likely modified from A3 spare parts. By the same token if the stock notch is insufficiently deep it may cause interference.

Is the short rear guard screw a defect? No. This is normal on original A3's and A4's and is the result of a production shortcut.

Is the "generous" fit of the stock to metal a defect? No. The A3 was wartime production and Remington alone was making 50 or 60 thousand a month through 1943. If the stock and metal fit is too tight, particulary around the rear tang, the stock may split on firing.

Defects Noted elsewhere
1. General lack of care in assembly - loose screws etc. Mike seems to have had better luck with his rifle.

2. Windage and elevation knobs on the scope are reportedly reversed. Supposedly "they were all delivered this way".



Genarally speaking considering that they shoot pretty well (once tightened up) and what they cost they aren't too bad a deal.

I do agree that its not the dealer's responsibiity to fix the manufacturers problems. Also if Gibbs had been more up front about the source of the basic rifles they might have headed off some of the negative comments.

Regards

Jim

[Brithunter]

Hmmm does anyone know if Gibbs has any tie up with a company called Modular Industries?

The reason I ask is that this company was the oen behind the company called Bremmer Arms and through thsi bremmer Arms they brought Parker-Hale and one thing they started producing at the Golden Hillock, Birmingham of re-manufactured Springfield 03's.

As I understand it they tried importing soem of these Springfields intot eh US and of course fell foul of the law in doing so which is why Bremmer Arms and Parker-Hale were closed down and wound up so quickly. The Springfield actions and parts were quickly shipped out of the UK the South Africa until it had all died down. Some of these were then re-imported into the UK and have been assembled and sold here and they seem to have been done correctly.

I wonder if some of these parts guns made it to the US and if these are the the source of Gibbs "parts".

I still have the glossy leaflet produced by Bremmer Arms for the 03's and a business card from one of the directors of Bremmer Arms as they set up a custom shop and they were going to build me a custom .257AI on a springfield action however when the muck hit the fan it was all closed down.