25-20 cases and reloading

[Marvin S]

I shot My new/old Marlin 27S for the first time yesterday useing new Rem cases. I shot about 20 rounds and noticed that two of the cases split just above the head. So im thinking something is maybe wrong with the chamber.
I get home and examine the chamber and measure the best I can with a telescoping bore guage and so far it looks okay. Then I get to looking at case dimentions in several manuals and find that case head measurement vary from .347 to .349. My Rem case heads measure .343 and that is what the LEE die sizes them back to.
The Rifle is in very good condition overall and looks to have been not fired in the last 50 years and the bolt locks up tight. I may try a chamber cast next.
Any other thoughts guys. I did measure the fired case at the split and it is .350.

[runfiverun]

case head separation is a way of life with the 25-20.
you just gtta watch for it and be ready to toss those spensive little buggars.
you could try to have a die opened, but it's just the way they are.
also use a good flair on the case mouth before seating.

[Marvin S]

These are splitting length wise. Is this commom also? Maybe too much head space?

[DLCTEX]

I believe that excessive head space will cause case separation, not longitudinal splits. I would check for an oversized chamber (measure a fired case) and try different brass, you may have a bad batch. Also check a resized case to see if the sizing die is undersized. For what it's worth, I've never had a case head separation in 22-250 in 30+ years of reloading for it. Lots of split necks after many reloadings, but then I don't load to the max.

[Dale53]

I have a modern Marlin lever action in .25/20. We used to have lever action matches at our club, so it got shot a LOT. I used the Lyman 257420 GC bullet cast of linotype and shot a full load (2100+ fps) and NEVER lost a case. I had a good number of cases. Just to check for case life with the full load, I loaded five cases at the range and kept shooting them. After 20 reloads, with NO case loss, I tired of the activity and quit.

I assume I had a good chamber and good brass. Every now and then you can get a bad lot of cases, but I have been lucky. I have had excellent results with Winchester .25/20 brass.

If I were ordering new cases, they would be Winchester simply because of my experience with this brass.

The two most likely cause of split cases would be a oversize chamber or a bad lot of brass. Occasionally, I have found a die that oversizes brass, but seldom to the extent that it causes split cases.

I suggest you make a chamber cast and determine the condition of your chamber.

FWIW
Dale53

[Marvin S]

I'm not finding any empty cases other than Remington.

[Green Frog]

Marvin,

If they are new cases (as I now reread that you say) I would suggest you may have a very loose chamber. If it is a brass problem, you can eliminate a lot of the problem with neck sizing instead of full length.

Froggie

[Dale53]

Here is some Winchester brass at Buffalo Arms:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,73.html

Dale53

P.S. Hi Froggie! rdm

[atr]

Marvin,
I reload 25-20 for a Savage model 23B...and I use Remington brass...Ive never had any splitting or case head separation. I think the suggestion that you only size the neck is a good one, as is taking a cast of your chamber. And I wouldn't ignore the suggestion that you have a batch of bad brass. Generally speaking the 25-20 is a pretty forgiving cartridge to reload.
Let us all know what you discover.
thanks
atr

[Marvin S]

Ive had none of these problems with my 27S in 32-20. I will pour a cast maybe tommorow but dont really know what to use as a standard. Could some one measure the head dia of their Winchester cases for me. Thanks for the tip on Win cases at Buffalo Arm.

[Leftoverdj]

Longitudinal splits neat the base are very bad, Tell Remington about it. Maybe you'll get some replacement brass out of it.

Neck splits are very common and nothing to worry about, just toss them when it happens. It's especially common in brass with some age on it, even if they have never been fired.

[Bret4207]

If the dies are overly sizing the cases an option may be to use a neck sizing die.

[Marvin S]

The dies are sizeing them back to the original head dia of the Remington cases. If the cases where made to what the Accurate loading manual says they are supposed to be I dont think it would be a problem.

[runfiverun]

short size them then, just the first 1/4" of the neck,enough to hold your boolit securly.
use an universal primer punch if necessary.

[Marvin S]

Just poured a chamber cast and done some measureing. After full length sizeing, the cases are .010 smaller than the chamber at the head/main body area. I have a universal decapper that I use on my 38-55 32-40 and such. After I fire form the rest of em ill try just neck sizeing. Also plan on ordering some Winchester cases and trying them. The main reason I buy Remingtons in 32-20 is they are longer than the Win cases. Sure hope something works for this fine rifle, besides I have a lot of money in it not to mention the new Marbles tang sight.

[Dale53]

MarvinS;
Die instructions shipped by most all of the manufacturers do not tell the whole story. Lever action rifles do not have the camming power of a Mauser style bolt action. Partial sizing of the case can lead to all sorts of problems in a lever action if it is done blindly.

Head separations are often caused by setting the shoulder back too far on each reloading. The shoulder gets blown forward when the round is fired and eventually (two or three reloads) the head separates. This is solved by NOT setting the full length die hard against the shell holder. The proper way to do it is to take a fired case, back the full length die out a couple of turns, size the case. Then try the case in the rifle and keep moving the sizing die towards the shell holder just a bit at a time until you have just the smallest bit of "feel" when you close the action. You want to leave the shoulder of the case forward enough to feel when you close the action. Too much "feel" and the action will not close properly. By having "feel" when you close the action you have insured that the shoulder has not been pushed too far to the rear upon sizing. This even works with rifles that have moderately "too much" headspace.

Splits on the side of the case are caused from either of two things. Either the chamber is oversize or it is a bad lot of brass. It is possible that this can be aggravated by excessive headspace (often caused in old rifles by set back of the locking system caused by wear or excessive pressures).

The easiest way to check this out is to change the lot and brand of cases. If the new cases work well, then you have found the problem. If the new cases split, then it is undoubtedly a rifle problem.

Partial sizing or neck sizing in a lever action can lead to lengthening of the case head to shoulder dimension interferring with closing of the action. The solution there is to look at paragraph two above. Bolt action bench rest shooters often neck size. After a few times they have to re-size the cases to set the shoulder back. They do it by the "feel" method (they actually have a separate die set up and when they feel it happening, they go to the full length die and reset the shoulder). However, since you have a lever action (and I have great respect for a good lever action) you must be more vigilant - you don't have the camming power to overcome a "too long to the shoulder case", so you can be stuck with a bunch of loaded rounds that won't allow you to close the action all the way. Using the "feel" method when partial sizing has worked well for me in the past.

Good luck and keep us posted of your progress.

Dale53

[atr]

Marvin,,
here is what I measured from a fired case from a Savage model 23B
hope it helps.
excuse the pathetic drawing
atr

taken on a Win Super-X case

[BerdanIII]

You might want to try partially resizing .32-20 cases to fit your .25-20 using the technique described by Dale 53. According to SAAMI (not much help on older guns, I agree) the .32-20 WCF case is about 0.351" just above the rim. You may have to watch the length of the reformed cases, but I'd be willing to bet the chamber is over standard length.

I got this idea from an early Fouling Shot.

[beagle]

I have a Marlin M1894 .25-20 and a 24" Douglas barrel that I replaced the factory barrel with. I have had no problems with head seperation with R-P cases.

A friend gave me a bag full of cases fired in his Model 27s and I did get a lot of head seperations with some of the Winchester brass in that lot so the Model 27S may be prone to developing headspace problems. About a box of .218 Bee cases in that vbatch was fireformed and I haven't had any problems with them so I'm thinking he had headspace problems in the M27S.

I always neck size my brass and have had no chambering problems.

As has been suggested, neck size and see if the problem don't either go away or get a lot better./beagle

[Marvin S]

Thanks for all of the imput guys, I will approach this with all thoughts considered.
ATR is that a Win or Remington case?

[Paladin 56]

Marvin,

It's the brass. I don't use Remington brass for that very reason, and haven't done so for 30 years. I've had many factory loaded rounds split the necks when I used to buy factory ammo for the brass.

I have a S&W 25-20 that I've loaded for over 25 years and haven't lost a piece of brass yet. I also have a Savage 23B with nowhere near the number of rounds through, but haven't lost any brass with it either.

You might try annealing those you have left until you can replace them. I never bothered annealing Remington brass but it may be worth a try.

David

[rickster]

FWIW Attached are pics of cases from a Rem 25 that had a "expanded" chamber due to an overload fired by the previous owner. The pics are of a ruptured case fired in the expanded chamber, a normal case fired in another rifle, and an unfired case.

[Marvin S]

Thats what im talking about but mine are not near that bad.

[lwknight]

I have had new never loaded remington brass that was split before I even put a bullet in it.
Only once but it can happen. Who knows , with the high production demand QC might be a bit thin.

[Bent Ramrod]

You can run into a bad lot of .25-20 WCF brass sometimes. I had a bunch of Super-X 60 gr HV ammo which split over 50% of the cases on firing. Some other brass has held on reloading after reloading.

I've noticed that reformed .218 Bee brass seems to be a little less thin at the mouth and the sides than the .25-20 shells. I anneal before reshaping, and the reformed shells stand noticeably more reloading than the regular .25-20.

[Echo]

The dies are sizeing them back to the original head dia of the Remington cases. If the cases where made to what the Accurate loading manual says they are supposed to be I dont think it would be a problem.

Did you measure the sized cases with a micrometer? Are you SURE they are being correctly resized?

[Marvin S]

What is really correctly resized. The body of the case close to the head is being sized back to head dia which is .344. Many case drawings I find say the head/body dia should be .349. My chamber cast out at .354. This was all measured with a 0-1 Scherr Tumico mic that passes PMEL @ +/- 0.0001.

[9.3X62AL]

I have a S&W 25-20 that I've loaded for over 25 years and haven't lost a piece of brass yet.

Now, THAT would be a COOL rat strafer! K-frame, perhaps?

[Tom Myers]

The image composite below is is made up of drawings of a SAAMI Spec chamber and SAAMI Spec Cartridge case. You can compare your chamber and cases to the SAAMI Specs and determine which problem aspect needs to be addressed.

Hope this helps.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/25-20/25-20_WCF_SAMMI~Hornaday_Bullet_.Jpg

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/25-20/25-20_WCF_SAAMI_Specs_Crimp_Dimensions.jpg http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/25-20/25-20_WCF_W-W_Crimp_Dimensions.jpg

[Marvin S]

Well I know Remington cases don't meet these specs. I also doubt the lee dies are made correctly either. The winchester case on the right used as an example looks about the same as the Rem case. I dont really see a chamber dia in the drawing.

[Marvin S]

Okay re read the above drawing (Thanks Tom) and got another one from leverguns.com and they pretty much agree with each other. The problem seems to be in both areas, chamber and cases not made to specs. The chamber may have been streched from too hot a load at some time but the cases sure ain't helping either. So while I decide what to do with it I have found a Savage 23B in 25-20 that should be here in a couple weeks. Thanks to all for the fat to chew on.

[Paladin 56]

Now, THAT would be a COOL rat strafer! K-frame, perhaps?K-frame it is. Model 14 K-38 fitted with a K-22 cylinder reamed to 25-20. Barrel is sleeved to .257". Did that around 1981.

Kills rock chucks on contact. Too hard on cottontails with 60 grain Hornady Flat Points. 75 grain Lyman cast boolits are what I have used most. I really haven't done an extreme amount of testing, but haven't experienced all the problems (case setback, et al) some have sworn would take place shooting a 25-20 in a pistol.

Linebaugh Penetration test results for this gun can be seen at this link http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp at the bottom of the list. Both loads were the same case, primer, powder weight, and bullet weight (75 gr.). The first bullet is from a commercial caster w/GC at 1,049 fps. The second test was with everything the same except the bullet, which was my Lyman cast with LBT blue lube for 1,244 fps.

I've loaded and shot it faster and it's a hoot to shoot, and fairly flat at longer ranges.

David

[semtav]

so far I'd been shooting new brass. 1/2 Remington and 1/2 Winchester.

'Started to reload some last night. first my RCBS die is sizing the neck too small and working it to much, so I need to cure that, but after running my first shell (Remington) thru the resizer 3 times the case split. It does look and feel paper thin.
So I quit and went back to using new brass for the time being.

after reading this thread again tonight, I decided to try the same to one Winchester shell. Ran it thru 3 times, No problems. think I'll stay with Winchester.

For sale - -50 new and 49 once fired Remington 25-20 cases. [smilie=f:

[Marvin S]

I need to get some Win cases ordered from Buffalo Arms. My 23 Savage should be here next week, that will give me something else to compare to. rickster do you know what that mod 25 chamber dia was/is and did you do anything to repair it with maybe a liner.

[TAWILDCATT]

I bought 100 220 swift to make in to 6.5 jap.first round bulged so bad I stopped
the rem brass expanded 19 thos.checked specs and the brass was not even right for 220 swift.I have a 100 rds of junk.seems like your brass may be wrong.the barrel may be bulged but I would think the barrel would witstand overload better than the action.

[Hang Fire]

As others have noted, the little 25-20 bugger will stretch and split, tis the norm, not the exception.

[9.3X62AL]

Paladin 56--

That paper penetration is right impressive.

No case set-back, eh? Another myth busted.

Right now, I'm up to my armpits in 25-20 brass, 650 pieces that need squaring and trimming. That 25-20 revolver idea is still rattling around in my head, with an under-performing S&W Model 617 in the gun safe. I'd hate to take tools to a nice original M-17, but this stainless critter with the underlug barrel annoys me with its steak & lobster ammo requirements. Cotillion Debutante rimfire ammo tastes don't play well in my gun safe.

[Marvin S]

I have had the Win 25-20 cases on order @ Buff Arms but they are out of it along with everyone else so it's back ordered. At least they did call and tell me.
I may shoot the Savage this weekend and see what it does. Ill post the results.

[Drilling Man]

I was surprised to read here that case problems are common with the 25/20, as i had a Rem. pump 25/20 and i never loss even one case in it. I still have a M-19 S&W revolver chambered in 25/20 and i've NEVER had a case problem in it either...

DM

[rickster]

Checking up on this thread after a month.

I too am surprised at those that say the 25-20 cases are prone to problems. I have several 25-20s and none are hard on cases if the dies are set up correctly. And most of my cases are Remingtons.

Marvin,
I just now saw your question. As I recall, the fired cases measured like a 256 Win Mag. At first I thought the rifle had been rechambered. That was before I disassembled it and found the receiver bent. I straightened the receiver and rebarreled it. That was thousands of rounds ago.

[Paladin 56]

Paladin 56--

That paper penetration is right impressive.

No case set-back, eh? Another myth busted.

Right now, I'm up to my armpits in 25-20 brass, 650 pieces that need squaring and trimming. That 25-20 revolver idea is still rattling around in my head, with an under-performing S&W Model 617 in the gun safe. I'd hate to take tools to a nice original M-17, but this stainless critter with the underlug barrel annoys me with its steak & lobster ammo requirements. Cotillion Debutante rimfire ammo tastes don't play well in my gun safe.
9.3,

I don't know how the M-617 would do since the bore would be the .224 and you are going from a rim fire to a center fire. I suppose one could bore and rifle the barrel to .257, but the frame issue to center fire may pose a problem.

Lap the bore, re-crown the barrel, and check the throats on the 617 if you haven't already done so before you give up on it.

As previously mentioned, I started with the K-38 Spl. and sleeved the barrel to .257" and had an M-17 22RF cylinder fitted and bored to 25-20. You would already have the cylinder, so it may be a wash unless its a 10 shot. My cylinder is a tad short since it was for the shorter .38 Spl. and 22 RF, but works OK. Had I thought about it at the time, I would have done what Drilling Man did and started with the M-19 and used an M-48 cylinder.

I do know you won't have any problems with the brass and loading if all is done properly and will be well pleased with the results. Any stretching, splitting or other problems can most likely be traced back to bad chambers or headspacing, improper reloading techniques, or in the case of Remington, bad brass.

Or, you could go with a .257 Magnum and start from scratch, which is what I was going to do, but decided on the 25-20 instead and haven't looked back.

David

[9.3X62AL]

If I get to such a project, I'll let the 'smith decide on how to handle the barrel caliber issue. It is a 6-shot. No lapping tried (yet), and it will do OK with better ammunition (Mini-Mags). I would prefer that it find some make of affordable bulk ammo to dote upon, though.

[Three44s]

I appologize for adding to the Hijack of the OP's thread ...... but I got to wondering:

What about a Dan Wesson centerfire small frame and a .22 cylinder. The last time I talked to CZ they had those cylinders for $90 bucks. Here is a new stainless barrel from CZ:

https://shop.cz-usa.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=20016

You could rebore this tube and have a convertible between the original cylinder and tube and the .25-20?



Three 44s