S&W 25-5 accuracy

[AbitNutz]

So it's true. The accuracy on this revolver just blows. I've had it for 30 years. It's one of the first ones they've made and it's like NIB. The reason is I could never get it to shoot for ****.
I more or less put it up and forgot about it (put it out of my mind). I remember reading some time after that the early models of this gun we re known to be inaccurate due to the chamber size being too large, like .457-8. For whatever reason I decided to check it today.
I got an unsized, soft lead .200 grain .45 bullet bullet and pushed it through the chambers...yup. .458. Every cylinder is .458. I haven't checked the actual barrel diameter yet but I bet it's .452.

Now here's the question. Is it hopeless? Or could/should I shoot a .457-8 cast bullet through it?

I guess I could email S&W and see if they have any correctly sized cylinders laying around.

[GLL]

Just curious. What is the barrel length ?

Jerry

[AbitNutz]

8 3/8" Blue

[targetshootr]

My 4" is fine but if it did have large throats I'd go to the expense of finding a 44 cal cylinder and have it rechambered to 45. That's how much I like it.

[shooter93]

That was a common malady in Smith 25's. Makes them a bit hard to sell unless they are measured first. The 1955 Models and some of the 25,s which I can't remember which ones, didn't have the problem.

[45nut]

probably looks a lot like this one....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/revolvers/45colt25-5.jpg

[Cherokee]

I had one of them - never got it to shoot near as good as my Ruger 45 Colt, so traded it off for another Ruger.

[AbitNutz]

I took a chance and just sent an email to S&W...maybe they have a cylinder laying around they'd like to fit.

[MtGun44]

Factory lead boolit ammo in .45 LC still use hollow based boolits to help deal with these
old guns. If you haven't tried the Rem or Win lead 45 LC ammo with the old style boolit,
you should. I'd guess that solid based boolits .458 diam would likely be accurate but
may spit lead and raise pressures a bit.

If you are really in love with the gun, see what S&W will do, and if nothing, find a good
gunsmith to ream a .44 cyl up to .45 LC.

Bill

[GBertolet]

I know of 3 people who purchased this model in the 1980's shortly after they came out. All had over size cylinder throats as you mentioned. They were all members of the same gun club. Apparently they were in contact with someone with authority at S&W, because they were instructed to return the revolvers in care of this person, to S&W and they were refitted with new recessed head cylinders with .452 throats. They were allegedly modified .41 mag cylinders. They also got letters from S&W authenticating the recessed head cylinders, since the factory had quit using them. No accuracy problems after this.

[AbitNutz]

I will try all of those. I've emailed S&W and if that fails, I'll call. Failing that, I'll try to obtain a S&W 41 or 44 mag cylinder and have it rechambered. I hadn't thought of that...
I suspect one of the big name gunsmiths could do it...

[AbitNutz]

Interestingly enough, I found a parts house that lists both a model 57 and a 25-5 cylinder in stock for about $130.00. I would normally think about just ordering a replacement 25-5 cylinder but I wouldn't know if it's the over sized .458 chambers or the newer .452 before I received it. I doubt they would know or care to check it for me or if I did, that I would believe them. No model 29's available or 25-7's.

After I get an answer from S&W I guess I can hunt up the appropriate gunsmith to do the work.

I'm wondering of I should just trade it off and buy a Freedom Arms 83.

[Grapeshot]

I used to own one of those 25-5's. Got one of the first batch. Couldn't get it to shoot worth a hoot untill I started to swage my own .454 diameter Hollw Based Bullets. Then the accuracy came arund.

I sold it and bought a Colt Anaconda in .45 Colt and haven't looked back.

[AbitNutz]

It's such a sad story. The action is sooo sweet. I took this thing apart when I first got it and polished it all up and added a spring kit. It has a lighter DA pull than my gunsmithed Python. The recoil is almost nothing and is so very pleasant to shoot...you just hit the broad side of a barn with it even if you're inside the barn.

I think I'm going to pursue getting something done to fix it.

[leftiye]

Numrich has blue model 629 cylinders right now, .44mag. They've got stainless .45LC cylinders too.

[ovendoctor]

in my 25 I am running the 255gr keith sized to 454

was sizing to 452 but was all over the target:groner:

after the switch the group is about 1'':holysheep

[muzzleblast]

My experience agrees with Ovendoctor's.

Before going to the trouble and $$$ of buying and rechambering another cylinder, you might try to find some vintage Lyman .45 Colt moulds that were made for .454" groove barrels. Designs like 454190, 454424, 454309 and 457401 (originally for the .455 Webley) generally cast fat enough to give good accuracy with S&W M-25s with oversized throats.

[lathesmith]

Here's a pic of my solution: a SS 45ACP cylinder, along with a 5" full underlug barrel. Drastic, to be sure, but the gun is a guaranteed shooter now. I'd sell you my old 45 Colt cylinder and 6" barrel, but...it wouldn't do you much good, as the throats on that cylinder were a full .458! I actually managed to locate a rare SS model 629-2 44 mag cylinder that I was going to re-chamber, but decided on the 45 acp route.
lathesmith

[GLL]

Chris:

My solution was not quite so "drastic"! This is a 25-7 which has 0.452" throats and is the best shooting .45Colt S&W ever made ! :) :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/EE67B6D58B974FB/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/D6DBB36312AD6AD/standard.jpg

[mcshot]

My experience agrees with Ovendoctor's.

Before going to the trouble and $$$ of buying and rechambering another cylinder, you might try to find some vintage Lyman .45 Colt moulds that were made for .454" groove barrels. Designs like 454190, 454424, 454309 and 457401 (originally for the .455 Webley) generally cast fat enough to give good accuracy with S&W M-25s with oversized throats.

The value of lurking here is priceless. For example, I have a single cavity Ideal #454 424 that I couldn't find on any charts. Now I know and I have two 45 Colts.
Thanks,
Mc[smilie=s:

[lathesmith]

Jerry, rumor has it that those later 45 Colt Model 25's had better chamber and throat dimensions, and your beautiful example seems to bear that out. I have an 1873 45 Colt clone that has rather large throat dimensions, and I have a couple of other tricks I am going to try before resorting to a cylinder swap for this one. I think the guys here have the right idea, a larger slug should help quite a bit. I have a Lee hollow-base, 295-grain minie that casts up @.453 or so that I am going to try, with a slower burning powder. I'm also going to whip up a custom sizing die that doesn't size the brass down so much, as these large-throated guns have rather generous chamber dimensions as well. All in all this should be a solution that will work fine for a gun that I don't shoot much. If a guy shoots several hundred or several thousand rounds a year, these solutions wouldn't be too appealing, but for a casual and occasional plinker like me they should get the job done.
lathesmith

[C1PNR]

An early 25-5 with rebated cylinder and .458 throats, been there and done that! Wouldn't hold them all in 10" for a string of 6.

Ordered a replacement 25-5 cylinder and returned it straightaway. Same size throats.

Finally sent it to Hamilton Bowen and asked for a replacement cylinder, with the rebated chambers. No go, unless you want to buy an old M29 and just scavenge the cylinder.

Answer was to use a new, non-rebated but available, M29 cylinder and bore it out. Works great now!

[leftiye]

I doubt a boolit .004 undersize for the throats will shoot well. But then, I've never (and will never) tried it.

[StarMetal]

I doubt a boolit .004 undersize for the throats will shoot well. But then, I've never (and will never) tried it.


Well Leftiye, you and others who think that are wrong. My S&W throats are .456 and I shoot my bullets sized to .452 ( and yes I've tried .456 bullets and they did not shoot better) and my Model 25 drills holes literally and even 44man was impressed with my 100 yards groups of 1.5 inches with it.

Joe

[dhain]

I had been struggling with accuracy in my S&W 25-5 in 45 Colt when I came across this post. According to the information in the thread there appears to be some consensus that this was a common problem on this gun that it adversely affects accuracy.

After reading the post I checked the chamber throats on my 25-5. Having no way to accurately measure them I simply tried inserting a sized bullet into the throat. A sized bullet with a .452 diameter dropped through the cylinder. I had some unsized bullets that measured approximately .454 with my calipers. They too, dropped easily through the cylinder. At this point I was about ready to sell or trade my gun off. I called my long-time friend and shooting buddy to discuss the problem. He thought we should try a few experiments before giving up on the S&W.

We tried several different cast bullets ranging from 200gr to 255gr and loaded with an appropriate amount of either PB or Bullseye. We tried some boolits sized to .452 and some unsized and lubed with Rooster Jacket.

Groups With Sized Bullets

Saeco #2, .452, 6.8 PB, 3.2"
Saeco #2, .452, 6.8 PB, 3.95"
RCBS 200gr SWC, .452, 7.2 PB, 3.42"
RCBS 200gr SWC, .452, 7.2 PB, 4.00"
Lee 200gr SWC, .452, 7.2 PB, 2.90"
Lee 200gr SWC, .452, 7.2 PB, 2.64"
Lyman 454424, .452, 7.2 PB, 3.80"
Lyman 454424, .452, 7.2 PB, 4.99"
Lyman 454423 HP, .452, 7.2 PB, 4.15"
Lyman 454423 HP, .452, 7.2 PB, 6.0"+

Groups with Unsized Bullets
Lee 240gr TC, RJ, 5.2gr Bullseye, 1.93"
Lee 240gr TC, RJ, 5.2gr Bullseye, 2.40"
Lee 240gr TC, RJ, 7.2 PB, 3.625"
Lee 240gr TC, RJ, 7.2 PB, 3.05"
Lee 230gr RN, RJ, 7.2 PB, 3.08"
Lee 230gr RN, RJ, 7.2 PB, 2.03"
Lyman 454424 HP, RJ, 7.2 PB, 3.02"
Lyman 454424 HP, RJ, 7.2 PB, 1.785"
H&G 68, RJ, 7.5 PB, 2.90"
H&G 68, RJ, 7.5 PB, 2.26"
Lyman 452389, RJ, 7.5 PB, 1.556"
Lyman 452389, RJ, 7.5 PB, 3.425", 4 shots in 1.561"

The average group size with the sized bullets was 3.905" with a best group of 2.64" and a worst group over 6.0".

The average group size with the unsized bullets was 2.588" with a best group of 1.556" and a worst group of 3.625".

Unfortunately, due to various constraints, the same bullets weren't used for both tests. Time constraints also prevented us from shooting more than two groups with each load. However, there does appear to be some indication that there is a little hope for this gun, especially when using unsized bullets (or sizing them larger than .452).

We plan on doing some more extensive testing when we get some time and decent weather. We've also got several other boolits to try.

[GLL]

lathesmith:

I own several of the old S&W 25-5 .45Colts that have large throats. I have minimized the problem by casting soft versions of this old IDEAL 454190 ! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/3DC734975B4795C/orig.jpg

[brian]

I have both a Colt Anaconda and a S&W 45 LC Mt gun and both have 0.456" cylinders. i couldn't get either to group cast worth beans with "normal" moulds. i finally tried Dave Scovill's RCBS 45-270-SAA and it casts out at 0.456 using WW + a pinch of tin. cast at 600F. Dave's load of 13 gr. of Blue Dot works well. now both group as well as i can hold. i've taken Javelina with the load. 50 yds. no problem other than buck fever. sandbagged off a bench either will hold a 6" black all day long at 50 yards. most of the rounds go into 3 to 4" or less, but i always seem to get a flyer or two. probably me. Anyway, go to a cast bullet that fits' the throat and you'll get better accuracy. if you have a revo with really big throats, consider either the RCBS 45-300-FN or the RCBS 45-330-U. these are both rifle bullets and will cast out big enough to fit your cylinder throats. if you really have 0.458" throats, then size either one of these to that diameter. they'll only be subsonic, but will group very well and hit like a ton of bricks so don't worry about the modest speed. I too wish revo makers would moderize their chamber dimensions for the 45LC but, oh well.....
Brian

[leftiye]

Originally Posted by leftiye
I doubt a boolit .004 undersize for the throats will shoot well. But then, I've never (and will never) tried it.

STARMETAL said -"Well Leftiye, you and others who think that are wrong. My S&W throats are .456 and I shoot my bullets sized to .452 ( and yes I've tried .456 bullets and they did not shoot better) and my Model 25 drills holes literally and even 44man was impressed with my 100 yards groups of 1.5 inches with it. "

Hey, I can ream out all of the chamber mouths of all the model 25s you can find to .458" (or .600" for that matter), and want it done to - just say the word! We ain't wrong, you're LUCKY! There's post after post on this thread by folks who had the OTHER experience.

[StarMetal]

Originally Posted by leftiye
I doubt a boolit .004 undersize for the throats will shoot well. But then, I've never (and will never) tried it.

STARMETAL said -"Well Leftiye, you and others who think that are wrong. My S&W throats are .456 and I shoot my bullets sized to .452 ( and yes I've tried .456 bullets and they did not shoot better) and my Model 25 drills holes literally and even 44man was impressed with my 100 yards groups of 1.5 inches with it. "

Hey, I can ream out all of the chamber mouths of all the model 25s you can find to .458" (or .600" for that matter), and want it done to - just say the word! We ain't wrong, you're LUCKY! There's post after post on this thread by folks who had the OTHER experience.

I size to none of the cylinder throats on all my revolvers. Apparently I'm lucky on all of them and they all must be aligned perfect. Maybe the other folks are making other mistakes...ever think about that? I'm not arguing with you Leftiye, just telling you what I do and with what results. I'll tell you another one. Had two 7x57's. One was a Mark X mannlicher and the other a Model 70 Featherweight. Both modern rifle with .284 grooves. Shot both of those with the Lyman 150 grain loverin sized to .284 and both shot 3/4 inch or under groups consistently. And no it wasn't at low velocities either.

Joe

[Edubya]

With all of the experience of the posters, so far, I can't believe someone has not suggested either "Beagling" or "Paper Patching". Maybe it's just my naive thoughts, but I'd durn sure try one or both of these before I went crazy smithing the gun.
EW

[StarMetal]

With all of the experience of the posters, so far, I can't believe someone has not suggested either "Beagling" or "Paper Patching". Maybe it's just my naive thoughts, but I'd durn sure try one or both of these before I went crazy smithing the gun.
EW

Generally one loads many more revolver cartridges then rifle, to boot most pistol cartridge boxes use to hold 50 rather then the 20 that rifle boxes hold...so to paper patch that many bullets would be insane. Beagling is only a last resort solution if you don't want to fork out money for the right size mold.

I always say, unless the cylinder throats are smaller then the groove of the barrel, shoot the dang thing first and see how it does. You may be surprised.

Joe

[Edubya]

" The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man".
George Bernard Shaw
EW

[leftiye]

Joe, Not at all caring to argue with you. But do you have anything to share that will help all of us newbies who have only been casting and loading for forty years to understand what makes things work? Apparently, the principles we've spent so long searching for and learning should be abandoned for - what? Chaos maybe?

[StarMetal]

Joe, Not at all caring to argue with you. But do you have anything to share that will help all of us newbies who have only been casting and loading for forty years to understand what makes things work? Apparently, the principles we've spent so long searching for and learning should be abandoned for - what? Chaos maybe?


No argument here although that was sarcastic. Here's all I do for pistols and revolvers. I cast using 50/50 alloy which is the ww/pure-lead, I size .001 to .002 over groove size. Been doing it the same way for 40 years with great results. I can give you names and phone numbers that will attest to my shooting.

Now off topic for rifles I've done pretty much the same thing. The only thing that changed is when I got into military rifles with fat chamber neck areas was to start forming 06 brass for that caliber (that is if an 06 case could be used) to just get the fatter necks. The one that was important for that is the 6.5 Swede. My 6.5x54 MS responded well to that also, but it's not a military rifle. I don't not size any of my rifle bullets to fit the throats. I size a little over the groove diameters.

Now I won't be conceited and say I haven't learned anything since belonging to this forum, but I will say I've had worse results trying some of the things suggested here for better shooting. I'll be damn if I'm going to go and ream out my revolvers cylinder throats before I even shoot the thing. If they aren't smaller then the groove I don't touch them. When I say my Smith 45 Colt shoot one ragged hole at 25 yards and 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards...it does. When I could see better it was no chore at all to run down beer cans off of sticks at 100 yards with it, and that's no 3-4-5-6 shots per can either.

Leftiye if we lived in the same area I'd be more then happy to show you what I do and how I shoot. Notice I said what I do, not in any way tell you what you're doing wrong.

Joe

[stephen perry]

Anybody have the Ruger in 44 mag to compare notes with the Smith 44 mag..

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[JIMinPHX]

I bought one of the last K-frames that Smith made (hybrid barrel type). It leaded horribly when I shot cast through it. When I slugged the barrel, I found that the groove diameter was something like .005" or .006" over the throat diameters. I called up smith & explained that I wanted to shoot cast out of it & explained that the large groove diameter was not conducive to doing that well. I asked if that was a warranty issue, or a custom shop issue or some other category of issue. I was told that they would send a call tag to me at no charge & that I should pack it up & send it right in to them for evaluation along with a letter explaining what I had found.

They took several weeks longer than they quoted me before getting to look at it. When I called to inquire about it, the guy that I spoke to was very evasive & would not tell me what they had found. After about my third call to them (calls spaced about a week apart) I got the usual evasive BS from the guy I was speaking to, but he finally said that it had been sent to the custom shop & they were looking at it. I told him that if I needed to pay to have the custom shop fit a new barrel with a specified groove diameter, that I would probably want to do that, but they should please send me a quote before starting any non-warranty work. Two days later, the gun arrived at my front door with 3 dirty chambers & a letter stating that there was nothing wrong with it.

They were very good about paying for shipping & not charging me a cent to look at the gun. Unfortunately, They kept it for a long time, I got the run around & they didn't do anything that I had asked them to do.

It didn't used to be that way. 20 years ago, S&W treated me very well when I had a warranty issue related to a recall. I've probably had a dozen or so smiths over the years & out of all of them, I've only had to contact the factory those two times. My opinion of them has been diminished by this last experience. Perhaps you will have better luck.

The letter that I sent them with the revolver was a bit long winded & went into great detail. Perhaps that was an overload of information that got me branded as a troublemaker or something. Perhaps my gun just got handed to the wrong guy at the factory to get inspected. Perhaps they have an endemic management problem these days. I don't know exactly what happened in Springfield, but I do know that I didn't get what I wanted.

The previous account is just off the top of my head. It should be a pretty good account of what happened, but to be perfectly accurate about timeframes, I would need to go back to my records & look up exactly who I talked to & when. I do keep those records though.

[StarMetal]

I bought one of the last K-frames that Smith made (hybrid barrel type). It leaded horribly when I shot cast through it. When I slugged the barrel, I found that the groove diameter was something like .005" or .006" over the throat diameters. I called up smith & explained that I wanted to shoot cast out of it & explained that the large groove diameter was not conducive to doing that well. I asked if that was a warranty issue, or a custom shop issue or some other category of issue. I was told that they would send a call tag to me at no charge & that I should pack it up & send it right in to them for evaluation along with a letter explaining what I had found.

They took several weeks longer than they quoted me before getting to look at it. When I called to inquire about it, the guy that I spoke to was very evasive & would not tell me what they had found. After about my third call to them (calls spaced about a week apart) I got the usual evasive BS from the guy I was speaking to, but he finally said that it had been sent to the custom shop & they were looking at it. I told him that if I needed to pay to have the custom shop fit a new barrel with a specified groove diameter, that I would probably want to do that, but they should please send me a quote before starting any non-warranty work. Two days later, the gun arrived at my front door with 3 dirty chambers & a letter stating that there was nothing wrong with it.

They were very good about paying for shipping & not charging me a cent to look at the gun. Unfortunately, They kept it for a long time, I got the run around & they didn't do anything that I had asked them to do.

It didn't used to be that way. 20 years ago, S&W treated me very well when I had a warranty issue related to a recall. I've probably had a dozen or so smiths over the years & out of all of them, I've only had to contact the factory those two times. My opinion of them has been diminished by this last experience. Perhaps you will have better luck.

The letter that I sent them with the revolver was a bit long winded & went into great detail. Perhaps that was an overload of information that got me branded as a troublemaker or something. Perhaps my gun just got handed to the wrong guy at the factory to get inspected. Perhaps they have an endemic management problem these days. I don't know exactly what happened in Springfield, but I do know that I didn't get what I wanted.

The previous account is just off the top of my head. It should be a pretty good account of what happened, but to be perfectly accurate about timeframes, I would need to go back to my records & look up exactly who I talked to & when. I do keep those records though.


I believe I have a Model 19 that was near the end. It shot pretty good, but I found the barrel had a restriction in it right where it screwed into the frame. I lapped it out and it's one of few most accurate revolvers I've ever owned. You know what, I've never checked the cylinder throats and size over groove size.

Joe