Ak! Gas checks needed and how to seat cheaply?

[barnetmill]

After a long time of not doing reloading I plan to get back to reloading and I am interested doing the 7.62x39 in SKS&AK with cast bullets.

I am planning to reload the Ak and want training loads that will function the gun and give minute of man accuracy at 7 to fifty yards. these will not be fired off a bench and 5 moa would be excellent and 8 moa will still be good.

Question is the use of gas checks essential for loads in the 1600-1800 fps range? I am mainly looking for reliable function and minimun fouling. I believe that the checks are added now days during the sizing step. I use to just snap them on with the fingers, but I believe now that they must put on with a sizing die. It this so?

Also will tumble lube designs work as well as the traditional groove type designs in these rifles?
Is sizing needed? I would prefer to not size if I can skip that step.

I always got by in the past by melting the lube in a pan with the bullets standing in the melts, cooling and using a shell casing to act as a cookie cutter or using my fingers. I was shooting a P17 or some other military bolt gun in those days with linotype and IMR 4759.

I plan on using something like the lee molds such as the CTL312-160-2R or C312-155-2R.

I am trying now also to trade off soft lead sheets for harder alloy. I live in the NWFL area with mobile, AL being not too far away.

I know that I asked a lot and will greatly appreciate any information that the forum members wish to share with me.

[FAsmus]

Barnel;

In a word, YES; GCs are pretty much necessary at anything much over 1450 ft/sec. You're going to have to put up with that additional 3 cents per round at the speeds you wish to shoot at.

With the bullets and accuracy you have thought of so far (which should be just fine) a good reliable load is 20 grains 4198. It'll cycle the action and still provide plenty of accuracy considering your liberal needs.

At the power levels you need to cycle the action you will have to become a semi-serious brass-hunter! Also, take note that the SKS & AKs both have very positive ejection designs. That is, you will find the base of each ejected case marked with a serious "ding" where the ejector hit it during the firing sequence. Some of this is tollerable but there will come the time when the dings mount up and the cases will no longer fit into the shell holders of the press or the auto-primer tools we use these days.

I've never used tumble lube designs, some other member will have to tell you about those. In conventional grease-groove GC bullets you pretty much have to run each bullet through the sizing operation to grease them and seat the GC. This is due to the design of all GCs currently being manufactured ~ they are all "crimp-on" items these days. The old brass slip-on checks are long gone, although I still have a few in 44 caliber for special uses.

If you're not totally dedicated to power level sufficent to operate the action you can get outstanding performance with a nice, light 30 caliber PB design over standard stuff like 5.5 grains 700X.

Good evening,
Forrest

[barnetmill]

Forrest thanks very much for the information.


Barnel;
.....

At the power levels you need to cycle the action you will have to become a semi-serious brass-hunter! Also, take note that the SKS & AKs both have very positive ejection designs. That is, you will find the base of each ejected case marked with a serious "ding" where the ejector hit it during the firing sequence. Some of this is tollerable but there will come the time when the dings mount up and the cases will no longer fit into the shell holders of the press or the auto-primer tools we use these days........
Good evening,
Forrest
To make this venture economically feasible I can not use commercial boxer brass cases. I will have to see if the schemes for using .210 boxer primers of which I have a large quantity will work for primimg .217 " berdan cases. That is another difficulty I will have to over come. If I am not shooting off a bench and I am moving while firing then the cases will be dispersed all over the place. I can currently buy from ammoman.com loaded ammo at $0.24 per round which makes buying new winchester brass cases at $0.32 from midway economically unfeasible for reloading considering case loss, labor, and cost of other components.

[madsenshooter]

The Lee TL design works very good for me in an oversized bore Krag rifle that I have. While you're doing Lee products, their .311 push trough sizing die makes seating gaschecks a snap and you don't have the added expense of a lubricator/sizer. You can lube simply by thinning the Liquid Alox with mineral spirits and dipping only the grooved portion of the bullet in there. That way you avoid sticky lint catching bullets as the grooves and lube are inside the case. The Lee mould I have is a single cavity, they show up on their surplus/closeout page from time to time. It casts at .311 and the only reason to run them through the .311 sizing die is to crimp the check on. Graf's has PRVI 7.62x39 brass at $29.99/100. If you want checks you can simply press on, get a Freechex tool off ebay. There would be no reason for sizing the TL bullet then.

[Ricochet]

Lee's .314" sizer just wipes the tops of the microbands on my Lee CTL312-160-2R. The boolit's loose fit in the long, generous throats of my Mosins is likely the reason it doesn't shoot as well for me in them as several other designs with longer full diameter body segments, I've never loaded cast for my SKS and don't have an AK.

To crimp on checks without sizing, use a Lee Factory Crimp Die for a cartridge with a neck diameter close to the desired crimped check diameter and play with the adjustment. Hold the boolit in the top of the die so the check's in the jaws of the crimping collet. Takes no more time or work than using a Lee push through sizer. A die for a 7mm caliber would be about right for a .30 boolit. Dies for .30s work great for 8mm boolits.

[RU shooter]

You can get your AK to function using a plain base or non checked boolit but not the two you listed,You need to go with a heavier weight ,I achieved decent function and accuracy with the a Lee 185 unchecked and a 220 gr PB The exact load I was using escapes me at the moment.



Tim

[FAsmus]

Barnet;

Sorry about the miss-spelling of your name on first post.

Ah! Your explanation regarding the brass-hunter problems is well taken. In my case I grew so sick & tired of hunting brass that I gave up on semi-auto shooting entirely for many years.

Then I bought a Yugo SKS with the gas system control valve, enabling me to shoot single shot or semi-auto as I wished ..

Anyway, as I understand such things, converting berdan cases to accept boxer primers is possible ~ but I never heard of it being either quick or easy. In other words you may find that such a procedure rules itself out of any "simpler-is-better" reloading program such as you anticipate.

~ You may very well find that buying and shooting the throw-away steel cases is your best option ~

Good morning,
Forrest

[NuJudge]

Can I encourage you to try to scrounge once-fired Boxer brass? I see it for sale here and there.

Also, try to use harder primers. I have seen doubling with the 7.62x39 in semi-autos.

[richbug]

I am playing with the same idea now.

Lyman 311413 @ 173 grains I have a 1000 or so here and couldn't find a good use for them otherwise, sized .314" no check, lubed with BAC

15.0 grains of Reloder 7,

Win brass

Salvaged mystery primers

Brass lands 6' away at 2:00 in my AKMs, function is good, accuracy is reasonable, shoots generally where I point it out to 50+ yards.

[barnetmill]

Can I encourage you to try to scrounge once-fired Boxer brass? I see it for sale here and there.

Also, try to use harder primers. I have seen doubling with the 7.62x39 in semi-autos.
I have some replacement firing pins that are spring loaded that I have to install in my AK that will help with softer primers and not having slam fires.

[barnetmill]

When they are in stock the going price for for 1000 Magtech Bullets 32 ACP (.312 Diameter) 71 Grain Full Metal Jacket is 7.5 cents each plus shipping. If a gas check costs 3.5 cents each, then you have already at half the price of the .32 fmj slug. I have gotten these in the past to function in the m1 garand .30-06 and I suspect they will function with the ak. I will have to give them a try. It looks like for projectiles that these will be the cheapest way to go.

I believe that I have an old lyman mold or two for 170 or 180 bullets, but for .309 size. I will have to look at what I have on hand.

[NickSS]

If you can buy steel case ammo loaded for 24 cents per round that is the cheapest way to do what you want to do if you can not or do not recover an appreciable amount of your brass. If you do hunt up say 80 to 90 % of your brass you can save money by reloading. With the rather loose accuracy requirements you could load heavy slugs with plain bases to a velocity level that will just function you AK. The brass will not fly as far that way and you will save about 3 cents per round and the brass will be easier to find. To find the load that does this will require experimenting some. I have loaded the Lee 160 gr AK bullet in 7.62 cases with 20 gr of 4198 and it shot about as good as it does with steel case russian ammo. The cases were vigorously ejected. I do not shoot my AK very much as I dislike chasing brass. I much rather use an AR 15 as brass is so easy to find laying around my club that I really don't care if I find all my brass as I am sure to find more 223 brass than I loose.

[badgeredd]

I modified my gas tube per "Larry Gibson' here on the forum. His mod will keep your brass close enough and grouped well enough to be able to recover most if not all of it. I shoot the Lyman 311291 in my SKS and found AA2015 a good powder for 1800-2000 fps loads. I purchased an after-market gas tube to modify for my rifle and have never regretted the modification. Accuracy is withing 2" at 75 yards so I'd say it fits within the parameters. I also used White Label Canauba Red for lube, but that requires a sizer/luber I'd guess.

Edd

[barnetmill]

From searching it appears mr gibson's modification was for the SKS and that it was reversible. On the project at hand, vigorous ejection would be slowed by using reduced loads. For training ammo, max power is not not needed, just function.