44 Special...Selections?

[BCB]

I thought I might like to get a 44 Special—one that I would just let with open sights and use it for “just shooting” at mostly nothing…
I have a SRH in 44 Magnum and could shoot the 44 Special in it of course, but it is ‘scoped and just doesn’t seem like the right handgun for plinking…
I guess I could try to find a used Colt or S&W or whoever made them, but what are my options for a new handgun in this cartridge. Maybe some off brand inexpensive one, but how will it hold up? Any suggestions? Why doesn’t Ruger make one—bet this has been discussed…Thanks…BCB

[Bass Ackward]

BCB,

Cheap died with Charter Arms and the Bulldog would be my recommendation in that price class.

But iffin you want a Cadillac, then here's your Huckleberry. Complete with an appreciating collector value.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=48100253


Get's me excited just thinking about it. :grin:

[Dale53]

You fellers should have been at the Ohio Gun Collectors Show today. I saw a very nice S&W 624 for $400.00 today. I could hardly believe it! Since I already have two (a 4" and a 6") I left it for some lucky fellow. My 6" is one of the most accurate revolvers I own. It is user friendly, also.

Great cartridge and terrific revolver.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Some of the Italian-made SAA clones are available in 44 Special at a not-too-decadent price. Had I not lucked onto a M-624 x 6.5" a few years ago from a board member, the SAA repro route would have been the one I took.

[BCB]

I'm not really looking for an inexpensive model, yet it seems that one either gets an expensive model or an inexpensive model. There doesn't seem to be any inbetweens? I just finished and article on the 44 Special in a past edition of Handloader and they seem to be in 3 catagories--at least according to pressure tolerances. I was looking for one that might handle the 44-250-K at around 1000 fps. I don't know that the Italian SSA clones would. Any thoughts on that?...BCB

[Bass Ackward]

I was looking for one that might handle the 44-250-K at around 1000 fps. I don't know that the Italian SSA clones would. Any thoughts on that?...BCB


BCB,

18.7 grains of H110 is 14,494 psi and 1013 fps from a 6.5" barrel. This is below the 15k maximum. The key is barrel length.

[beagle]

BCB, you're thinking along the same lines as me. I've been trying to beat #2 son out of his 4" M24 Smith to no avail.

I've kind of mapped out a course and you might think about it. I had a SBH in 5 1/2" but traded it for a long barrelled SBH. I'm now looking for another one and it will get a get a .44 Special switch cylinder via Brownell's blank Ruger cylinders. I figure this will give me a pretty good carrying as well as range gun.

Some say why bother when you have a couple of .44 Magnums. I like to shoot .44 Special and have a .50 cal can full of brass for it and the SBHs don't shoot .44 Special near as good as they should.

So, that's my plan and I'm sticking to it./beagle

[AnthonyB]

BCB, you are describing my idea of a perfect revolter and load. I don't know when I will swing it, but my 44 Special will be a five inch FA 97. Not cheap at all, but I'll only buy one... Tony

[Dale53]

I also have a Cimmaron .44 Special and shoot my "regular" .44 Special load without problems: 7.5 grs of Unique with a 250 gr Keith. That little revolver shoots extremely well, also. Good piece. I did have to "regulate" the sights, however.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

Dale--

That is my "go-to" load in 44 Special. About 90% of its shooting has involved that combination. I get about 925 FPS with #429421 from its 6.5" barrel.

A revolver like yours is what I was speaking of in my earlier post.

[BruceB]

The "need" for .44 Specials in my house is filled by my 629 Mountain Revolver, which is really very similar to the earlier N-frame .44 Specials. It's from that initial 1989 run of 5000 guns which started the whole "Mountain Gun" theme.

All my loads for it are in Magnum-length brass, which eliminates the bullet jump which would occur if Special brass was used. With flat-out magnum loads, it's a bit of a bitch...but comforting in the bear country where we used to live.

Here in Nevada, it lives on a diet of Special-level loads, which are much more comfortable and still quite powerful, thank you. It is nice to have the Magnum-load option, though.

I'd say that a current 629 Mountain Gun would serve just as well as mine does at .44 Special levels, and it really amounts to two guns in one, because the loadings can be VERY different. I've run 250s at over 1300 fps from mine, and 200s at 800....now, there's a spread!

[Scrounger]

The "need" for .44 Specials in my house is filled by my 629 Mountain Revolver, which is really very similar to the earlier N-frame .44 Specials. It's from that initial 1989 run of 5000 guns which started the whole "Mountain Gun" theme.

All my loads for it are in Magnum-length brass, which eliminates the bullet jump which would occur if Special brass was used. With flat-out magnum loads, it's a bit of a bitch...but comforting in the bear country where we used to live.

Here in Nevada, it lives on a diet of Special-level loads, which are much more comfortable and still quite powerful, thank you. It is nice to have the Magnum-load option, though.

I'd say that a current 629 Mountain Gun would serve just as well as mine does at .44 Special levels, and it really amounts to two guns in one, because the loadings can be VERY different. I've run 250s at over 1300 fps from mine, and 200s at 800....now, there's a spread!

And IF you had a bunch of .44 Special brass you wanted to use, and IF you didn't want to shoot it in .44 Mag cylinder, it would be fairly easy to get an extra cylinder chambered for the .44 Special which you can change in a few seconds...

[carpintx]

Here's a thought BCB -

I have a Rossi in .44 caliber. It's a 5 shot revolver, stainless steel, with nice adjustable sights. I believe that Taurus merged with Rossi and if that's the case, it may be marketed by that firm.

It has a full length ejector shroud and the barell is rather heavy. It probably as accurate as any revolver I own. If you come across one of those, you can't go wrong.

[BCB]

Well, I continue to follow the posts and I am reading all of them. I did a Google search on Cimarron, Taurus/Rossi, and Freedom Arms. It seems that Taurus/Rossi doesn’t offer the 44 Special anymore or at least it isn’t on their website. Cimarron does have the 44 Special in the Model P but the sights aren’t adjustable. They also have the Special with their Bisley Model and the Flattop version has adjustable sights. They start at around $500+. Then I looked at Freedom Arms. They have the 44 Special in their Model 97 as previously mentioned—it starts at $1718. Ain’t a revolver worth that money…Period. The Freedom Arms/Ruger argument surfaces on some websites. Now then, my SRH will shoot “almost” as good as the FA for about 1/3 of the dollars! (Sorry, got off on a tangent!) Regardless, this dang search for a 44 Special might not be as easy as I had thought! Maybe some more advice will appear. I had given the thought of a nice six-inch 44 Magnum Ruger and use it for 44 Special, but it just seems that I have a 38 Special and a couple of 357 Magnums and that is the route I would like to go with the .429’s. Thanks for all the information so far…BCB

[jar-wv]

If you run across an old 357 3 screw Blackhawk, they make a dandy gun to convert to 44 special, though you'll end up with some money in it. Mine ended up with a 4" barrel and rounded off grips, and is an excellant shooter. Am now trying to decide what to do with a 357 Flat Top I picked up the other day.

jar

[MT Gianni]

I have a 3" Charter Arms Bulldog and a 6 1/2" 624 that are great guns. If you want a Rossi/taurus I would look for the older models that were not titanium and 1 7/8" bbl, basically Charter Arms copies. If you look for a rebarrel I think a mod 28 smith would be ideal for the job. I bought my 624 on gunsamerica 5 years ago or so and gave 325 new in box. The seller lived in Ca and could not legally sell in there as S&W had not "approved" all it's model numbers for California testing so this one was illegal for resale there. Don't get in a hurry and you should find something. gianni.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I copy BruceB in loading my S&W 629 8 3/8" with ".44 Magnum Light" loads. The 629 thrives on a diet of 7.0 Green Dot and the RCBS 250K plain base boolit, at 950 fps from the long barrel, and 920 fps from a 6". I load the same recipe for my .44 Magnum Marlin Cowboy for 1200 fps from the 24" barrel. I have to shorten .44 Magnum cases .010" to feed reliably in the Marlin, so my .44s are almost Magnum.

[Bucks Owin]

I guess I fall into the camp who wonders about the "need" for a ".44 Spl only" revolver since the .44 mag can cover those lower velocities just fine. I've heard guys argue that "Elmer's load" of a 250 gr at 1200 fps is "big medicine in a small package" for converted .357s etc. My problem with that scenario is that "Elmer's load" generates about 37K which is a little too stout for a "smaller frame" .44 Spl IMHO....(And not very pleasant to shoot in something like the Bulldog!)


FWIW,

Dennis

Personally, I like the .45 Colt. Bigger bullet than the ".429 Spl" and one can drive a 250 gr bullet to 1200 fps with FAR less pressure than the .44 Spl requires...

[Bucks Owin]

If you run across an old 357 3 screw Blackhawk, they make a dandy gun to convert to 44 special, though you'll end up with some money in it. Mine ended up with a 4" barrel and rounded off grips, and is an excellant shooter. Am now trying to decide what to do with a 357 Flat Top I picked up the other day.

jar

Either sell it to me, (cheap ;-) ) or leave it in .357 IMO. If a conversion is "needed", I'd go to the .41 mag or .45 Colt....

Just me,

Dennis

(Who admittedly is not a big fan of the .429" bore....)

[Bass Ackward]

This is getting off topic a little but I am famous for that.

It is interesting to see how differences come into play once again where because of folks experiences, and different outlooks are obtained. While some folks seem to have accuracy (for them anyway) out of 44 special pressures in a 44 Mag, I have seen far better results at those pressures when the powder is confined to a smaller space. Especially when it comes to lighter weight slugs where case capacity enlarges rapidly.

And now that we have slower powders, 1200 fps can be had in a 44 SP at 24,000 psi and that is nothing to an N-Frame. I will go one step farther. Had Elmer not had to stop at 2400 in burn rate, I don't think he would have ever pushed for a 44 Mag case. All he wanted was 1200 fps without gun destroying pressures.

I think (superb) accuracy is far more easily with a special than the mag case from bullet weighing less than 240 grains. And in truth, 80% of us only operate a 44 mag like it was a 44 special. Especially in Smiths.

[txpete]

I shoot alot of the lee 208 wc in 44 special brass out of my mountain gun for plinking.240 swc w/ 7.5 grs unique is a excellent load also.
pete
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/handguns002.jpg

[Dale53]

Bass Ackward;
I sort of "fell into" an original Model 24 S&W .44 Special 6 1/2" from the Estate of a friend. I and a friend had a call from the widow with a request that we help disposing of her late husband's reloading stuff. We worked most of one day sorting, cleaning up and pricing. We then took the stuff to our local club and sold every last stick of gear. His guns had been priced by another family friend and she offered any, at the listed price, to my friend and I. I told her that I was hesitant to buy as I didn't want to be seen as a "scavenger" of an old friend's estate. She insisted, and I picked the model 24 and paid the listed price (which was reasonable but not a give away). I still have it and it is a performer. I quickly settled on 7.5 grs of Unique with a 250 Keith. I did have to try the Keith loads and the gun digested them with no problems. I later added a pair of 624's (4" and 6 1/2"). All three of the revolvers are lifetime keepers. I have had some quality problems with the 4". It has been back to the factory once, early in life, and how is waiting for me to replace a broken firing pin.

I consider the Model 24 and the 624 to be absolute "Classics". I highly prize them.

As for my .44 magnums, I shoot them a lot, but have always shot them close to full house (23.0 grs of H110 or equivalent with a 250 gr Keith). I often raised that load to 24.0 grs when hunting but eventually settled on 23.0, even for hunting (the deer do not know the difference).

Now, I load the 310 Lee when hunting although for the whitetail that I hunt the 250 Keith is plenty adequate.

Dale53

[Bucks Owin]

This is getting off topic a little but I am famous for that.

It is interesting to see how differences come into play once again where because of folks experiences, and different outlooks are obtained. While some folks seem to have accuracy (for them anyway) out of 44 special pressures in a 44 Mag, I have seen far better results at those pressures when the powder is confined to a smaller space. Especially when it comes to lighter weight slugs where case capacity enlarges rapidly.

And now that we have slower powders, 1200 fps can be had in a 44 SP at 24,000 psi and that is nothing to an N-Frame. I will go one step farther. Had Elmer not had to stop at 2400 in burn rate, I don't think he would have ever pushed for a 44 Mag case. All he wanted was 1200 fps without gun destroying pressures.

I think (superb) accuracy is far more easily with a special than the mag case from bullet weighing less than 240 grains. And in truth, 80% of us only operate a 44 mag like it was a 44 special. Especially in Smiths.

I would agree. I seem to get better "mid velocity" accuracy in the .44 mag when using heavier bullets, 240 and up....
Also, the 37K I mentioned was with the original load using 2400 powder in the .44 Spl case as you figured out. ;-)

My personal favorite .44 mag load is 22 grs of LilGun under the 250K boolit at 1450 fps. Accurate and hard hitting. The same amount of W-296 at 1400 fps is another accurate one for me. That said, the 310 gr Lee boolit is rapidly becoming a contender for favorite projectile as I keep trying different loads with it. That bullet just refuses to shoot badly at any velocity!

FWIW,

Dennis

[9.3X62AL]

I can't shoot well enough with my 44's--Special or Magnum--to say whether one is more accurate than another, caliber to caliber. Both are a LOT more accurate than I am, for damn sure.

I keep hearing such good things about that Lee 310. It does well at lower velocities (800-900 FPS)?

[Bucks Owin]

I keep hearing such good things about that Lee 310. It does well at lower velocities (800-900 FPS)?

I shot this group at 25 yds without half trying. I was more interested in getting velocity readings on the 310 Lee ahead of 14 grs of SR-4759 and shooting fairly quickly. To top it off, this load was "barefoot" and unsized! (My size die is backordered) Does this boolit have accuracy potential or what!?!

FWIW,

Dennis

BTW, av velocity was about 850 fps....
17 grs of LilGun yielded 1100 fps with the same result accuracy wise...
I intend to shoot a big ol' N. Kal hog with it this summer, revved up to around 1300+ fps. Betcha it'll be great "hog medicine" too!


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/310L001.jpg

[McLintock]

If you like single actions, the Old Model Ruger .357 conversion is really nice; it's a common conversion with many gunsmiths doing it. I've been a fan of the .44 Special ever since reading about Skeeter Skelton having Ruger's converted back in the early '70's. I had one done back then (1976), by the same outfit that did Skeeter's and shot it for years; it had a 6 1/2" barrel . Then got into Cowboy Action Shooting and had it and another .357 converted to Colt style backstraps and the second gun to .44 Special. Missed the long range capability of the longer barrel and adjustable sights to go with it, so recently got another Ruger and a Super Blackhawk barrel and plan to have another long barrel one done. Already fitted a brass grip frame to it. Here's all three guns; the two Crugars really shoot black powder nice.
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL206/1303399/2477311/146960067.jpg
McLintock

[Bucks Owin]

Those are some beautiful hoglegs amigo!

Yeah, I know the conversion is really popular, in fact almost a "fad" these days!
I just figure that there is NOT an infinate number of OM .357 Blackhawks out there and they'll just become MORE rare (and expensive!) in the years ahead...

The .44 Spl can't do anything that the .45 Colt can't do better IMO and there are plenty of NM .45 Colts for sale reasonably priced. I'm not sure I buy into the notion that a SBH (or any other .44 mag) can't be just as accurate when shooting .44 Spl in them than a dedicated .44 Spl would be..(Or a downloaded .44 mag)

Finally, a .44 Spl when kept at SAAMI spec handloads is no more powerful energy wise than the .357 mag anyway!

I guess I just don't "get" the .44 Spl craze.....(Even though I DO admit the 3 screw builds into a really nice .44 Spl...)

Dennis

BTW, But I guess I'm almost as "bad" as you, I'm thinking really seriously of getting Clements to convert my 10" .44 Flattop to .45 Colt... Gun nuts! :roll:

[StarMetal]

Bucks Owin,

All it is, is a want for something that's not a normal everyday production item..something unique, something rare...that's how I see it. I have to agree with you that a 45 LC is one heck of a cartridge that can be loaded down or up to match or beat alot of the so called better rounds. You're right about the old three screw models drying up. In fact it was I believe Guns & Ammo that just had an article on custom gunsmithed Ruger and in the article it was mentioned that the three screw models were fastly drying up.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

And you guys think a OM 357 conversion to 44 Special is twisted.....try this one, I'm considering a SBH with swap cylinder in 44-40, to pair up with the Win 73 in that caliber. Gun nutz is right.

[StarMetal]

Deputy Al,

I don't see anything wrong with your idea. For one you're not ruining an old three screw model. You're basically getting an extra cylinder.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

Ever the iconoclast, I must say, that even though the 44 Special is the darling of some gun writers, and therefore many ordinary shooters just must follow suit, I have found nothing special about the 44 Special.

Over the last 40 years, I have had over a dozen 44 Specials and have tried to love and appreciate them as Skeeter and others said I must. But alas, all is in vain. In the past year I sold off my last two Model 24's. All I have left is a 1931 vintage Smith HE that went over the bench at Micro with their sights, trigger, hammer and fine checked backstrap. It is a good old sixgun but nothing to write home about.

I have found the 44 Magnum round to be far better in terms of accuracy. From mild target loads to full stomp magnum loads, the round delivers superior accuracy. Up and down the power chart, I have never found a good 44 Special that would beat a good 44 Magnum.

IMHO the 44 Special fondness is "much ado about nothing".

[Char-Gar]

If a fellow wants a three screw, four click Ruger SA in 44, he is better off hunting up an OM Super Blackhawk in 44 Magnum on which to lavish his attention and treasure.

You get allot more gun for allot less money!!

[Bass Ackward]

Chargar,

That's an interesting observation about 44 Special / Magnum accuracy. Is your experience/ feelings the same reference the 38 Special / Magnum? Meaning that a 357 outshoots a 38 special at all pressure ranges?

[Char-Gar]

Bass... No with experience with the 38/357 is slightly different. The 38 Special round can be loaded to give so much accuracy it is scary. The .357 round gives very good accuracy up and down the power curve and turns in good results at target velocity, but a good 38 Special will shade a good .357 in terms of pure accuracy.

I have no explaination for the differences between the 44s and the 38s, but I have noticed the difference. As far as accuracy goes.......

I would take a 44 mag over a 44 Special
Iwould take a 38 Special over a .357 Magnum
I would take a 357 Magnum over a 44 Special.

How is that for convuluted thinking?

[Bass Ackward]

I would take a 44 mag over a 44 Special
Iwould take a 38 Special over a .357 Magnum
I would take a 357 Magnum over a 44 Special.

How is that for convuluted thinking?


Chargar,

Good thing I didn't ask about a 45 AR vs a 45 Colt? :grin:

[BCB]

Well, I continue to read the comments. It seems that all are good and have substantial credibility to be considered. The problem—that makes deciding to seek a 44 Special even more complex!!!

Are the Specials any more accurate then the Magnums? I ain’t sure of that. I do know that my 38 Special loads shoot much better in my Model 10 Victory (38 Special) then the same Special loads in my Security-Six 357 Magnum. Both are as accurate as I can be using the proper cartridge in each handgun. To down load the 357 Magnum to 38 Special velocities/pressures has not worked well in the Security-Six. This handgun seems to prefer mid to upper pressure loads. One load using H-110 and the 358429 is above maximum pressure (from data that is published) and it shoots like a bench rest piece. Or again, as good as I can shoot open sights. I don’t think I would want to shoot these loads all of the time. I load the 358429 to 625 fps for the 38 Special—it shoots very well. This same load using the Special case in the 357 Magnum is mostly lousy. Loading a 357 Magnum case with the same bullet to near the same velocity (625 fps) is mostly lousy also. This sort of helps me to eliminate the purchase of another 44 Magnum and use it with 44 Special brass or 44 Magnum down loaded to Special velocities/pressures. Yet, who knows if the same situation will occur?

The 45 Long Colt would be another option except that I would need to purchase reloading dies, molds, sizing dies for the bullets, maybe gas checks, etc. I really am not into another caliber. I have everything for the 44 Special EXCEPT the handgun!!!

It seems to me that the 44 Special would fall between the 357 and 44 Magnums. Both have their purposes, but the 44 Special might just fill both niches-within reason of course.

Conversions are another option, but I have always liked things mostly stock production. It does seem sort of a shame to change a handgun of one caliber to that of another. Don’t ask why I think that, but I just do. I have ridden Harley’s for 35 years and all were stockers. Got one now that is 22 years old and it is original city. Ain’t the fastest thing out there, but it gets me here and there.

Well, I will just continue to read whatever else might be posted. I ain’t in a hurry as someone advised against. Maybe something will come my way this summer or hopfully sooner…BCB

[McLintock]

It definitely is a personal preference deal regarding the .44 special, in both liking large calibers and lighter handguns for packing all day. When Skeeter started the craze, the .44 Blackhawk was available as well as the Super Blackhawk. He wanted a smaller, lighter single action, capable of some good power (Keith type loads), without worrying about blowing up a gun. The .357 sized Ruger Blackhawk gave him that size and weight, but it wasn't available in .44; so he did the next best thing, made his own. The conversion still gives these qualities to anyone wanting them in a single action; particularly if you want the old style action.
So far as the supply drying up, it'll take a long time for that to happen, particularly in shooter grade guns. The collectors, so far as a shooter grade gun, could care less, and many of them love to convert them and "make them the way they want them". The collectable stuff is another story, leave it alone, they're going up in value so fast it's unbelievable, and with the rarer and scarcer models, it would be a sacrilege to mess one up, if it's still in collectable condition. Even the flattops have to be in decent condition to be desirable, unless it's say a one or two digit gun, or 10" barrel .357; something really desirable and/or rare. If it's an Old Model pre-fix serial number gun, there's almost no collector interest unless it's a late model brass framed factory gun that's got a letter to prove it. In Cowboy Action Shooting, where the single action interest is the highest among general type shooters right now, 90% or better don't even know what an Old Model is and could care less about having one, they're perfectly happy with the New Models. An "Old Model" to them means the original style Vaquero; but there's already talk about taking the new 50th anniversary Blackhawk and converting them to .44 special and coming up with a smaller framed, lighter .44. All it takes is a gun nut's personal desire.
McLintock

[StarMetal]

Another thing nice about the 45LC Ruger is getting it with the extra 45acp cylinder. With that extra cylinder it gives you a whole lot of additional type loads and I might add ones that use alot less powder too. I have the old three screw model 45LC with the 4 5/8 inch barrel and extra cylinder, also my gun is on the slightly smaller frame, and I just love it. It's my longest owned firearm.

Joe

[45 2.1]

And you guys think a OM 357 conversion to 44 Special is twisted.....try this one, I'm considering a SBH with swap cylinder in 44-40, to pair up with the Win 73 in that caliber. Gun nutz is right.

Al-
Supposedly this is an easy conversion. I read an article years ago about a guy reaming the mag cylinder with a 44-40 reamer. Supposed to work fine according to the article. The Buckeye convertible came out with dual cylinders this way also.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

Now if you were talking about an 45 AR15 and a 45LC there would be a BIG difference [smilie=l:

Joe

[slughammer]

Don't forget the S&W 696. It is an "L" framed 5 shot 44 spl. Mine has a 3" NON-ported barrel and is a blast to shoot.

I need to get myself a nice holster for mine. Nice and easy to shoot, low pressure and low muzzle blast; yet it throws a big chunk of lead.

I've seen several comments about the 357 mag and the 44 spl. My thought is that if I ever need to shoot one without hearing protection, the 44spl may leave me with something when I'm done.

[Char-Gar]

The .357 Mag with full snort loads does tend to be a loudmouth. But I have lost almost all of my high frequency hearing anyway. In the days of yore (1950's we shot Bullseye pistol under a tin roof with nothing but a cotton ball in our years. We thought our ears were supposed to ring five days a week.

The 45 Colt is always a good choice for a soft spoken sixgun that spits out a sizable amount of lead at moderate speed and pressure. I started with some New Service Colts and still wish I had them.

However these new smaller frame Ruger Vaqueros in 45 Colt are first class handguns. Highly accuracy and they shoot to the sights. A fellow could take one of these, send it to Alpha Precision for a Smith and Wesson adjustable rear sight and a good blue job and have a first class sixgun for a whole lot less than jacking with 44 special conversions.

[9.3X62AL]

Al-
Supposedly this is an easy conversion. I read an article years ago about a guy reaming the mag cylinder with a 44-40 reamer. Supposed to work fine according to the article. The Buckeye convertible came out with dual cylinders this way also.

On paper, it looks pretty straightforward. The grooves in the rifle are .429", so if the revolver's barrel runs .429"-.430", i could just size boolits to .430" and swap them between rifle and revolver. Of course, there is never a guarantee that one load will shoot well in both the long and the short platform--to date my 32-20's (2 revolvers and 1 rifle) all have varying tastes--and pressure level thresholds. One of those ideas that sounds great on paper, but could lose something in translation. One of the Spaghetti SAA Repros in 44-40 might only cost a slight bit more than assembling a Frankenstein.

[Dale53]

Elmer Keith started the .44 Special craze and for very good reasons, AT THE TIME. There was NO .44 magnum and he was working with '73 Colts. The cylinder was too thin for heavy loads with the .45 Colt. So, you drop down "one size" and arrive at the .44 Special. The .44 Special could be safely loaded to near magnum velocities with the 250 gr Keith. That was big medicine then and not at all bad today. While I am a fan of the .44 Special, I will be the first to admit that today it makes more sense to buy a .44 magnum. If you are going to carry a lot and shoot a little, the mountain gun makes sense. There is a significant difference in the weight between a Model 24 and a Model 29 Smith. The Mountain Gun is just a .44 special with .44 magnum chambers (oh, they have done some beefin' up internally, but the concept is the same). By the way, my .44 Specials shoot EXTREMELY well but I doubt that they shoot any better than my magnums.

When I hunt with my .44 magnums, I use a Bianchi Cross Chest carry. It is just too long and too bulky for a belt holster. However, the .44 Specials belt carry nicely.

If we were talking Ruger Single Actions, it makes sense, today, to go with the .45 Colt (of course, you will have to handload to get maximum power, whereas with the .44 magnum you can buy store bought ammo) (gag, spit, hack!!:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:).

FWIW
Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

Bass,

Now if you were talking about an 45 AR15 and a 45LC there would be a BIG difference [smilie=l:

Joe


Joe,

When you leave the 38 bore, you leave favorable dimensions for the most part. Even from Chargars responses what I heard him saying was that all of his guns had much larger throats than bore in 44 Specials. When he got the .001 difference, he listed the gun as a tack driver. If those dimensions had been in his 44 Special I believe that his tune would be different. Common sence says to me that if I go to a lower pressure cartridge, I have less pressure available to me to obturate my bullet. If I can't fill my throat, how do I get a seal? Without a seal, how do I get consistent velocities, barrel time, etc, etc. That's why most "Magnum" fans talk of running them right on the top. OR using heavy bullets, all you are doing is using bullet filler to reduce case volume.

The most accurate handgun I ever owned was a 44 Special with a 215 gr Lyman and I sold it for a 44 Mag. The most accurate I ever saw was a 45AR. Both shot many 50 yard groups that you could cover with a nickel. (Open sights)

A short case aids in ignition at low pressures when powders don't like to burn and gives you more low velocity, light bullet options. IF you get the dimensions right. But then that applies to everything doesn't it.

[Char-Gar]

Bass.... base expansion/obturation ceases to be an issue in sixgun loads IF you shoot bullets larger than cylinder throats. When a (for example) .432 bullet inters a .430 cylinder throat, it is sealed regardless of pressure.

You can size your bullets outside of the gun in a die or size the bullets inside of your gun in the cylinder throats. Do your sizing inside gun and this obturation stuff goes away. As long as you have a good lube, gas cutting won't take place.

I do need to state that bevel base bullets can still be a problem, but I don't use bevel base bullets so never think of those little devils.

Elmer Keith believed that the use of oversize hard bullets caused an increase in pressure and could be a problem. Well..on this one St. Elmer was wrong. Sizing cast bullet in the cylinder throats won't cause enought extra pressure to be of any concern.

For many years, I chased this bullet size, throat size, pressure, alloy temper business around and around, sometimes with sucess and sometimes without sucess. I finally just started shooting bullets larger than cylinder throat and most of t he probems went away.

As long as the loaded round will chamber with ease, no bullet is too large to shoot in a sixgun. When they enter the barrel forcing cone they will be an exact custom fit for the cylinder throat through which they passed.

[Char-Gar]

Dippity Al.... You are so correct when you say that finding a cast bullet load that does well in both rifle and sixgun can be a very "iffy" thing. I have played around with these rifle and sixgun "combos" for a number of years.

I have found that using a gas check bullets solved the problems in every case. Even though the sixgun may not need the gas check, it will shoot them very well.

[Bucks Owin]

Chargar,

Good thing I didn't ask about a 45 AR vs a 45 Colt? :grin:


Yeah, good thing! There IS no comparison!!! :-D

Dennis
(who's favorite handgun round is the .45 Colt!) ;-)

[Bucks Owin]

Bass.... base expansion/obturation ceases to be an issue in sixgun loads IF you shoot bullets larger than cylinder throats. When a (for example) .432 bullet inters a .430 cylinder throat, it is sealed regardless of pressure.

You can size your bullets outside of the gun in a die or size the bullets inside of your gun in the cylinder throats. Do your sizing inside gun and this obturation stuff goes away. As long as you have a good lube, gas cutting won't take place.

I do need to state that bevel base bullets can still be a problem, but I don't use bevel base bullets so never think of those little devils.

Elmer Keith believed that the use of oversize hard bullets caused an increase in pressure and could be a problem. Well..on this one St. Elmer was wrong. Sizing cast bullet in the cylinder throats won't cause enought extra pressure to be of any concern.

For many years, I chased this bullet size, throat size, pressure, alloy temper business around and around, sometimes with sucess and sometimes without sucess. I finally just started shooting bullets larger than cylinder throat and most of t he probems went away.

As long as the loaded round will chamber with ease, no bullet is too large to shoot in a sixgun. When they enter the barrel forcing cone they will be an exact custom fit for the cylinder throat through which they passed.

I would agree. I've fired many "unsized" boolits in my sixguns. And sometimes when lacking a sizer die, I have "sized" boolits by tapping them through a cylinder's throat after pan lubing. Not the best for accuracy I'm sure, but it'll get me shooting in a pinch....

If the boolit come out of the throat a little larger than groove diameter, it can have more tendancy to lead the barrel IMO.

As you said, it doesn't matter what size a boolit is before entering the throat. When it comes through, it's gonna be the same size as the throat. No way around that! A good example is a guy carefully and meticulously sizing a .45 Colt boolit to .451" and then firing it through, for instance, a cylinder with .448" throats.... :roll:

Dennis

[9.3X62AL]

Chargar--

I pondered that very issue--use of the GC boolits--to resolve the "swap ammo" questions between rifle and revolvers. Not too long ago, I got a two-holer in #311316, but I haven't yet run these in the wheelers--just the Marlin. I'll give that a show very soon.

One upgrade I plan to give all my 32-20 ammo--STARLINE BRASS. Talk about a night-and-day difference between R-P/W-W and the new stuff......I might give the 44-40 the same treatment.

[Char-Gar]

Buck... Sixgun loading and shooting is as much witchcraft as it is science, but that not withstanding I hold that shooting bullets larger that barrel groove diameter is not the source of leading. IMHO leading comes from:

1) a bullet that hits the barrel undersize, and gas cutting occurs along the sides of the base. Alloys which are too hard and bevel base bullets are chief culprits, as are undersize cylinder throats.

Having cylinder throats larger than barrel groove and bullets larger than cylinder throat pretty well does away with this issue.

2) Barrel forcing cones which are rough and act like files as the bullet passes through them. The gas blasts these lead slivers into the barrel where they pile up.

3) Barrels which are filled with micro-burrs and other machine hickies to small to be seen.

4) When the leading occurs in the half of the barrel toward the muzzle and not in other places, the lube has rolled snake eyes.

This is my story and I am sticking to it!!!

[Bucks Owin]

Buck... Sixgun loading and shooting is as much witchcraft as it is science, but that not withstanding I hold that shooting bullets larger that barrel groove diameter is not the source of leading. IMHO leading comes from:

1) a bullet that hits the barrel undersize, and gas cutting occurs along the sides of the base. Alloys which are too hard and bevel base bullets are chief culprits, as are undersize cylinder throats.

Having cylinder throats larger than barrel groove and bullets larger than cylinder throat pretty well does away with this issue.

2) Barrel forcing cones which are rough and act like files as the bullet passes through them. The gas blasts these lead slivers into the barrel where they pile up.

3) Barrels which are filled with micro-burrs and other machine hickies to small to be seen.

4) When the leading occurs in the half of the barrel toward the muzzle and not in other places, the lube has rolled snake eyes.

This is my story and I am sticking to it!!!

Since my pet Flattop has both oversize throats and a rough bore, I "think" I agree with you! :drinks:

Dennis

[Char-Gar]

Buck... Here is how to smooth the bore on that Flatop. It really works! I have a K-38 that was the bugger when it came to leading. It didn't matter what I did, it leaded. I would have traded it off except for the fact that is was so darn accurate it was scary until the lead built up. Here is what I did and it is a "no lead" sixgun.

I have cure about a dozen "leading" sixguns this way.

1) Buy 200 cheap 150- 160 grain jacketed bullets.
2) Load them in 38 Special cases to give about 800 - 900 fps velocity.
3) Take the pistol, and 200 rounds shooting and take along with you a pair of glooves, a cleaning rod with a new bronze brush on it and some Shooters Choice Solvent.
4) Fire the 200 rounds as fast as you can load and fire. don't worry about taking your time to hit something.
5) Put on the gloves as the pistol will be hot
6) Drop out the cylinder and give the bore 200 two way strokes with the new brush and lots of solvent. It is a good idea to remove the grips as well
7) Take the pistol home. I put it in a plastic bag as it is real messy
8) Catch the pistol by the barrel in the padded jaws of a vise. You will have to remove the ejector rod on a SA pistol.
9) Work the bore over real good with Sweet's 7.62 to make certain you have removed all of the metal fouling. There won't be much after the hot scrubbing with the Shooter's Choice.
10) Using tight fitting patchs coated with a metal polish like Semi-Chrome or Flitz polish the bore for at least one hour of stroking time or until you arms feel like they are about to fall off.
11) Clean us the pistol with any good solvent

You now have a pistol with a smooth, mirror bright finish that will not lead, will be easy to clean and give improved accuracy.

If you look down the barrel ,you will now see the "constriction" rings at the breech as plain as rat turds in the sugar bowl, and you will get weak in the knees. Forget about Veral Smith and all of the other crap you have heard about these things. Just shoot the pistol and enjoy, they won't hurt anything.

I much prefer the above polishing method to laping as nothing is removed but the machine hickies and no dimensions are changed. Workum good!!!

[Bass Ackward]

Bass.... base expansion/obturation ceases to be an issue in sixgun loads IF you shoot bullets larger than cylinder throats.


Chargar,


Yep. Absolutley. Been there and done that. Especially when you want to shoot real slow powders. Negates all the neck tension, crimp, and case sealing issues too because you are shooting cast like a rifle then. Brass has to move less to seal so everything works better.

But I will bet that there isn't one guy out of a thousand that tries it for fear of pressure. If it goes in, it comes out.

Let me add that from my experience, it is still best (for accuracy) to have only .001 difference between the throats and bore.

[Char-Gar]

Bass...I am in 100% agreement that in an ideal sixgun the cylinder throats should be .001 larger than groove diameter. When that sweet combination comes together, there is great joy in the sixgunner. I have never owned one, but I understand Freedom Arms pulls that off as a matter of course.

Not having the money for such high dollar sixguns, the rest of us have to jiggle the dimensions the best we can and most often we can do that with sucess.

When you consider all the variables, it is a wonder that any sixgun will deliver anything that resembles good accuracy, but they do in spite of themselves.

A few years back I was with Jim Taylor and watched him put a 45 Colt cylinder in a Ruger SA 44 magnum and fire a cylinderfull of 45 Colt ammo. It was even Buffalo Bore ammo that was pretty stout stuff. Those bullets had to size down from .452 to .430!!!

The accuracy was decent and the empty cases ejected without any problems and neither the cases nor primers showed any signs of high pressure. That cured me of concerns about over size bullets in sixguns.

Jim did that to prove that peak pressures occur in the cylinder and are already droping off as the bullet enter the barrel. The additional pressure generated by shoving the big bullet through the smaller hole, is not enough to raise the pressure above their previous peak in the cylinder. In short..there are no pressure consequences to shooting bullets larger than cylinder throat or goove diameter.

I have since learned that many veteran sixgunners size their bullets to fit or be larger than the largest cylinder throat in their fleet of sixgun in a certain caliber. Then the just shoot. That saves trying to match the bullets to a number of different cylinder throat and groove specs.

I now size my 44s to .432, my 45s (revolver) to .454 and my 38s/357s to .359 and forget about all of this other stuff. Works just fine, save time and I get very good accuracy and performance out of them all. I am not the only one who does this and we try to keep it a secret. If we let it get out, then we cant keep the ball rolling and act so knowing on all of this cylinder throat, barrel groove stuff.

Children..don't try this without a grownup present and your blood be on your own head if you do something stupid... etc. etc. etc. etc. I don't recommend you do this etc. etc. etc...this could prove dangerous in your firearms...etc. etc. etc...I assume no responsibility if you kill or maim yourself.. etc. etc. etc. the guy that wrote this is probably a nut and not to be trusted..etc. etc. etc...never take technical advise from strangers on the Internet..etc. etc. etc.

[BruceB]

This discussion is extremely entertaining and informative.

After a lot of years with a HERD of different sixguns, I find myself doing pretty much what the common wisdom in this thread (NOT "common" anywhere else, mostly) has boiled down to. For example, I have four S&W .357s, manufactured over the forty years from 1955 to 1995. Internal dimensins do vary. I now size all the boolits at .359", and all the guns purr very happily.

It's a treat, not having to keep THIS ammo segregated for THAT gun, etc etc etc.

.44s are the same, as I'm now sizing them all at .431 and enjoying the results.

Excellent material in this thread for new reloaders...it could save them decades of crashing around out there in the bushes, looking for the Grail.

[KCSO]

Just a quick note...
I have a Cimarron Thunderer in 44 Special that with a little work has made one of my best shooting guns. When the gun came in the trigger was 3 lbs on the nose and the gun locked up prefect and it had a smooth action. The forcing cone was some rough and I reamed the cylinder holes to 430 on the snout as they were between 430 and 428. The gun now hits poa at 25 yards and will throw 5 shots into less than 2" with factroy round nose slugs and will do a little better than that with home brews. For the money not a bad buy even if you have to do a little polish work.

[Swagerman]

It is very difficult to find a .44 special at a moderate price these days, $400 is a steal on a 624.

I elected to have one built on a 2nd model that was once .455 british WW-1 gun.

Acquired barrel and cylinder over a long period and finally found the gun at a reasonable price to make the transformation.

End result is an excellent shooter and firearm I highly prize.

What really makes me happy is the fact I have an original 3rd model .44 special, so two in the hand is better than a bird in the bush....or something like that. :mrgreen:

Jim


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P1220025rtp.jpg

[Bucks Owin]

Buck... Here is how to smooth the bore on that Flatop. It really works! I have a K-38 that was the bugger when it came to leading. It didn't matter what I did, it leaded. I would have traded it off except for the fact that is was so darn accurate it was scary until the lead built up. Here is what I did and it is a "no lead" sixgun.

I have cure about a dozen "leading" sixguns this way.

1) Buy 200 cheap 150- 160 grain jacketed bullets.
2) Load them in 38 Special cases to give about 800 - 900 fps velocity.
3) Take the pistol, and 200 rounds shooting and take along with you a pair of glooves, a cleaning rod with a new bronze brush on it and some Shooters Choice Solvent.
4) Fire the 200 rounds as fast as you can load and fire. don't worry about taking your time to hit something.
5) Put on the gloves as the pistol will be hot
6) Drop out the cylinder and give the bore 200 two way strokes with the new brush and lots of solvent. It is a good idea to remove the grips as well
7) Take the pistol home. I put it in a plastic bag as it is real messy
8) Catch the pistol by the barrel in the padded jaws of a vise. You will have to remove the ejector rod on a SA pistol.
9) Work the bore over real good with Sweet's 7.62 to make certain you have removed all of the metal fouling. There won't be much after the hot scrubbing with the Shooter's Choice.
10) Using tight fitting patchs coated with a metal polish like Semi-Chrome or Flitz polish the bore for at least one hour of stroking time or until you arms feel like they are about to fall off.
11) Clean us the pistol with any good solvent

You now have a pistol with a smooth, mirror bright finish that will not lead, will be easy to clean and give improved accuracy.

If you look down the barrel ,you will now see the "constriction" rings at the breech as plain as rat turds in the sugar bowl, and you will get weak in the knees. Forget about Veral Smith and all of the other crap you have heard about these things. Just shoot the pistol and enjoy, they won't hurt anything.

I much prefer the above polishing method to laping as nothing is removed but the machine hickies and no dimensions are changed. Workum good!!!

Thanks for the tip amigo! Actually, I went with option #10 with JB paste and lot's of "elbow grease". The machine marks in the bore are still there but at least they are "smooth" machine marks! (And leading is "tolerable" now...)

Dennis

[Bret4207]

Swagerman- Thats a sweet 44! Nice.

I like the 44 Special just 'cuz it's a little different, shoots great in my guns and because it'll do anything I need it too in a slightly smaller gun than a 44 Mag. Yes, I know there are 44 mags out there with 2.5- 3" barrels, but they just "seem" wrong to me. Good old personal preference wins out for me. We won't even go to the Charter Bulldog I carry on a regular basis. Too many folks just hate 'em!

[Swagerman]

About the only other option I have to acquire another .44 special is to consider a brass framed Cimmaron lever gun of the Italian extraction. I believe they also make a SAS in .44 special.

An outfit in Florida called American Western Arms is also selling the SAS in .44 special for a mere 600 dollars...but it looks sweet.

They are making a really neat pump slide action like the old Colt Lightening but its in .45 Colt or .38 special...I think. The price is nearly astromomical 1,500 to 2,400 dollars.

Taurus is also making a copy of the Lightening, but only around 500 bucks. It too comes in .45 Colt or .38 special...I think. Wish it was .44 special.

Jim

[Bucks Owin]

About the only other option I have to acquire another .44 special is to consider a brass framed Cimmaron lever gun of the Italian extraction. I believe they also make a SAS in .44 special.

An outfit in Florida called American Western Arms is also selling the SAS in .44 special for a mere 600 dollars...but it looks sweet.

They are making a really neat pump slide action like the old Colt Lightening but its in .45 Colt or .38 special...I think. The price is nearly astromomical 1,500 to 2,400 dollars.

Taurus is also making a copy of the Lightening, but only around 500 bucks. It too comes in .45 Colt or .38 special...I think. Wish it was .44 special.

Jim

USFA who builds better Colts than Colt does IMO also builds the Lightning in several calibers and versions right up to extravagant engraving, wood etc...
I think they start at about $1200 and are built "under the blue dome" in Colt's old factory....

Buy American! :drinks:

Dennis

[waksupi]

If you go with a brass frame, keep the loads mild. I do know, that hotter .44-40 loads can stretch the frame on Henry's. Don't ask.

[Swagerman]

I hear you, the brass is nice but not really like tempured steel.

Think I would lean toward the Taurus pump-slide Lightening in .45 Colt or whatever they call it...its all steel...plus the price is good.

Jim

[EDK]

Back in the early 70s, a model 29 was impossible to find. I converted a model 27 to .44 Special with a scalper price model 24 barrel and several model 28s with re-lined barrels from Woodruff (?) in Delaware. The guns were stolen in a burglary in 78. I replaced them with 29s that had become much more affordable and available. The 29 or Super Blackhawk will shoot better than I can with either special or magnum brass. I use special brass for cowboy loads for Vaquero/Super/Bisley. Try a 6.5 model 24/624; then an older 29 with half lug barrel; and then a full lug barrel 629. You'll discover the elegance of the .44 Specials. Same thing with Old Model .357 Ruger converted to .44 Special versus.44 Flat-top versus Super Blackhawk. Look at some of the conversions on Ruger Forum or Sixgunner. Hamilton Bowen or Dave Clements or Jim Stroh (Alpha Precision) will make you a tack driving work of art and cosmetics to brag on for the next generation.