What is your favorite 45 colt Keith or LBT style.

[Changeling]

It would really be interesting to me and a lot of people I believe to see what every ones favorite Keith or LBT style bullet is, pictures would be an excellent addition if available along with bullet weight and why you like that particular bullet. Hell anything you want to say.

[Changeling]

Well I guess it's not interesting to anyone.

[Wally]

I have treid numerous style of bullets and will list them

RCBS 225 CAV
Lee 250 RF
RCBS 250 RF
RCBS 255 SWC (Keith)
Lee 255 SWC

Out of all of these the RCBS 250 RF is the accurate through my Ruger Blackhawk...

I shoot at 75 yards at a 6" and 12" plate..If I can hit the 12" 5 times with a cylinderful, that is accurate enough for me. The RCBS 250 RF did better than all the rest. I tried & tried to get the RCBS 255 Keith to equal it using a wide variety of powders & charges, to no avail. I seem to always do better with the three magnum calibers (.357/,41/.44)...

[beagle]

I've shot a lot of the Lyman 454424 and 454424HPs out of the Blackhawk .45 Colt with good results when pushed at the higher velocities.

I don't do much hunting and find that the old 454190 RN flat point does better for plinking as i'm shooting them at around 1,000 FPS.

I've found that the .45 Keith designs and the LBTs have a meplat that is too wide to maintain accuracy for longer range shooting unless they're pushed hard and I don't do that in the .45 Colt as I have two .44 Mags if I want to get rough.

Now, saying all this, the 45-270 RCBS looks enticing but I haven't tried one yet./beagle

[44man]

LBT, WLN, WFN, RNFP by a long shot.

[j20owner]

I have both a Lyman 454424 and a Lyman 454190 mold. As of now, the 190 is a better shooter in my Blackhawk due to undersized cylinder throats. I'm going to have cylinder smith work on the cylinder after the holidays and do some more testing.

[Dan Cash]

I have a lyman 452664 that drops .456 with 30:1 alloy and weighs out at 265 grains. When loaded over 8-8.5 grains of Unique or 36 grain of 3F Goex it far outperforms other .45 bullets that I have tried. I am shooting 2 different Smiths and a Uberti copy of a Schofield. They all hold minute of porqupine out to 50 yards or so. This load also works well in my neighbor's Vaquero.

[Changeling]

Now this is what I was hoping for. It's awesome when individuals speak concerning "there" personnel experiences.

The way everyone so far has contributed from a "Personel Experience" perspective is really great.

[9.3X62AL]

Once the throats on my BisHawk were opened to meet the groove diameter, Lymans #454190 and #454424 both became very accurate for me. The edge goes to #454190, but not by a wide margin. When the throats were at factory specs (.449"), the only boolit that shot worth beans was #454490, a Thompson-like SWC with gas check. It continues to shoot pretty well, but the gas check is both expensive and superfluous now that plain-based boolits are behaving themselves.

[Wally]

I have also tried lighter .45 Caliber bullets made for the .45 ACP...have never have found one or a load that was any good through my Ruger Blackhawk..have used:

Lee 200 SWC-TL
Lee 230 TC-TL
Lee 230 RN-TL

Sure would be nice to use one of that provides 1,000 FPS...and is accurate...

[frank505]

Well............we've spent quite a bit of time fooling around with bullets in our sixguns and we have made our own molds of different designs. We shoot Keith bullets only now after testing in game, paper and plinking at longer ranges. Of course some of the "Keith" bullets are of a garbage design and won't shoot past 50 yards. If the alphabet bullets are so great, why is the "formula" for an lfn meplat EXACTLY what the 429421/H&G503 is????????? The front band does make holes in tissue and bone, the ogival designs will not make full diameter hole, just like Elmer Keith said in Sixguns. PLease go test some yourself, dont take my word or lots others that have experience in the field, not in a blind or hanging around from trees. We take shots as they come and dont worry about angles, we know the bullet will follow the front sight and exit.

[44man]

Well............we've spent quite a bit of time fooling around with bullets in our sixguns and we have made our own molds of different designs. We shoot Keith bullets only now after testing in game, paper and plinking at longer ranges. Of course some of the "Keith" bullets are of a garbage design and won't shoot past 50 yards. If the alphabet bullets are so great, why is the "formula" for an lfn meplat EXACTLY what the 429421/H&G503 is????????? The front band does make holes in tissue and bone, the ogival designs will not make full diameter hole, just like Elmer Keith said in Sixguns. PLease go test some yourself, dont take my word or lots others that have experience in the field, not in a blind or hanging around from trees. We take shots as they come and dont worry about angles, we know the bullet will follow the front sight and exit.
The front band does not touch tissue at all, the pressure wave from the meplat moves everything out of the way. It is the meplat itself that does the work.
All decent meplat boolits kill good but I don't get the accuracy from the Keith style that I get from the others. The Keith DOES kill the same. It is ONLY an accuracy question.
If you get a semi wad cutter to shoot like you want it too, it sure does the job.

[Snapping Twig]

The only two I've tried have been the 454424 and the Lee 255 RNFP - both shoot very well for me in a S&W 25-7, but that pistol has a reputation for such accuracy.

I use 8 ~ 9 grains Unique and a WLP, but mostly I use 9g as it duplicates the original 900fps load the Colt was designed for.

I've also tried 7.5 ~ 8 grains W231 and it worked well, but I like the idea of using Unique.

I tend to use the Lee boolit more since it's a 6 gang mould. I can pump out a passel in a hurry, so I save the Lyman stuff for special occasions. :)

[beagle]

I removed the GC shank on a 452490 and it's really good in the .45 Colt....probably as good as is the 429421 in the .44 Mag./beagle


Once the throats on my BisHawk were opened to meet the groove diameter, Lymans #454190 and #454424 both became very accurate for me. The edge goes to #454190, but not by a wide margin. When the throats were at factory specs (.449"), the only boolit that shot worth beans was #454490, a Thompson-like SWC with gas check. It continues to shoot pretty well, but the gas check is both expensive and superfluous now that plain-based boolits are behaving themselves.

[Piedmont]

"The front band does not touch tissue at all, the pressure wave from the meplat moves everything out of the way." This is the one point Veral Smith has made (LBT) that has been repeated so many times that most accept it. It has never made sense to me.

I understand the sand in gelatin test not marking the shoulder of a Keith bullet, but so what? Animals aren't made of gelatin. Sure, muscle tissue might react by being blown off the point and not hitting the shoulder. What about the entrance side hide, or ribs, or any bone, ligament or tendon? I just can't see them being blown around by a pressure wave off the meplat.

[44man]

"The front band does not touch tissue at all, the pressure wave from the meplat moves everything out of the way." This is the one point Veral Smith has made (LBT) that has been repeated so many times that most accept it. It has never made sense to me.

I understand the sand in gelatin test not marking the shoulder of a Keith bullet, but so what? Animals aren't made of gelatin. Sure, muscle tissue might react by being blown off the point and not hitting the shoulder. What about the entrance side hide, or ribs, or any bone, ligament or tendon? I just can't see them being blown around by a pressure wave off the meplat.
Yes, the wave prevents the edge touching, even the sides of the boolit don't touch when the meplat is large. It might cut an initial hole but the shoulder is too small to matter anyway. Bone will wipe it off and distort the nose if the bone is real heavy.
Holes in the hide don't tell much, it is tough. If you seen super slow motion of a boolit or even a razor sharp arrow on exit, you would see the skin pooch out quite a bit before the projectile breaks out.
I know the shoulder looks pretty and gives the idea that it is deadly but it does nothing. Just cuts round holes in paper.

[Dale53]

I shoot NOE's 454424 and the Lyman 452664 out of my .45 Colt Vaquero and the new SS Ruger Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible. Both shoot well at reasonable ranges. I have shot the Vaquero with both black powder and smokeless with the 452644 with EXCELLENT results.

I haven't shot any deer with either of the above bullets (all of my deer have been taken with the .44 magnum and all but one with 250 gr Keith bullets - GREAT results at any angle and up to a hundred yards). I would expect the .45 Keith to do at least as well.

Both of my .45 Colts have had the cylinders opened up to .4525".

FWIW
Dale53

[DanWalker]

I shoot a Lyman 454424 that I had a cramer hollowpoint conversion done to.
The boolits have an inverted pyramid shaped cavity in them. Haven't tested them on game yet, but accuracy has been outstanding. I load them over 6.5 grains of Red Dot for plinking and general use.
They get loaded over 18.5 grains of 2400 for hunting.
I also use 320 grain hammer boolits. These are a wfngc design, based on the the LEE 300 grain boolit, but able to be used in 45/70 or as a medium heavy boolit in the 45LC.
I use the same loads of powder under the 320's as I do with the 250 swc.
I've killed several deer and hogs with the parent LEE design of the hammer, and it is a POTENT killer. My accuracy with it in my blackhawk seems to be limited by my recoil tolerance.
I don't know why, but my win 94 trapper carbine has always shot the hammer boolits better than anything else. It hates swc designs. The hammers shoot so well from it, and deliver such outstanding on game performance, that I've never tried to fiddle with it to see what else it likes.

[Bucks Owin]

I like the looks of the "hammer style" boolits too Dan. Should be a real "hogslammer" and should also enter the forcing cone far better than a "Keith" bullet. Right 44man?....Dennis (Who FWIW, gets tired of the "Keith syndrome" in everything pertaining to sixguns!)

[Bucks Owin]

I have also tried lighter .45 Caliber bullets made for the .45 ACP...have never have found one or a load that was any good through my Ruger Blackhawk..have used:

Lee 200 SWC-TL
Lee 230 TC-TL
Lee 230 RN-TL

Sure would be nice to use one of that provides 1,000 FPS...and is accurate...

I've had no luck with a 200 gr in the .45 LC either so far. Makes me wonder how accurate the CAS type loads really are! On the other hand, the best group my 7.5" B'hawk has ever fired wasn't with a handload but with the 225 gr WW Silvertip factory load. Just over an inch @ 25 yds....grrrr! Dennis

[smkummer]

3rd. Gen 45 with 7 1/2 in. barrel gets 900 FPS with either the 454190 or 452424. Add 100 FPS (1000 FPS actual) to the 12 in. buntline with the same loads. About 875 out of a 5 1/2 in. New Frontier SAA. The charge is 9.2 grains of Unique. At 50 yards the better accuracy of the the 454190 shows as with both bullets I am just using them as cast and the 454190 comes out at .454 or 455. I believe Lyman should have left the 454424 at its original diameter. Remember for best consistancy to start with the barrel at the 12 oclock position and slowly lower it. That give the best velocity. If you start with the barrel at the 6 oclock and raise it to target, then expect over 100 FPS loss in velocity as Unique is really position sensitive. just my experience and .02.

[C1PNR]

I like both the 452423 and 454424 in my .45 Colt 7 1/2" BH. I've not had a lot of luck with stellar accuracy in the lighter weights.

[Frank]

LBT for me. Love those long boat tails.

[Bullshop Junior]

I dont really like Keith Boolits in my Ruger 7&1/2" BlackHawk

[Rodfac]

Bucks Owin....I've had good luck with a Valley Truncated Cone 200 gr .45 ACP boolit in my 3rd generation .45 LC, with a 7.5" barrel. It shoots less than 2" gps from either the .45 LC cylinder or the .45 ACP cylinder (which I fitted myself). The loads are: 4.7 gr of 231 with the ACP cylinder or 7.5 gr with the .45 LC cylinder. (My loads, in my gun, yours will undoubtedly be different.)

By the way, the 200 gr TWC shoots to the pt of aim at 25 yds two handed, while my 250 gr SWC's and 454190 boolits shoot 3" hi at the same distance.

Regards Rodfac

[Changeling]

I really want to thank everyone for there input. Some have really demonstrated there likes and dislikes very well.

The surprising thing is that so many people don't like the Keith style bullets but don't seem to be sure as to why.

44Man made a statement that still rings in my ears on the Keith style. They Kill OK, but he has never been able to get the accuracy from them. That makes sense because there are some that back up this statement. I have also read/heard/been told that they were happy with the Keith bullets but could only get good accuracy when they were loaded Hot.
Then you/I have the problem of defining what someones idea of accuracy is. To me this is the only place where a "Ransom Rest" would have some real meaning. I don't mean 25 yds because bullets can do some strange things out at 100 yards (revolver bullets) that can't be seen at the often quoted 25 yard targets/groups. Whereas if it shoots great at 100 yds in all probability it will be great at 25.
Then you have the question of what is accuracy in the individuals mind. To me, I would like to see 2 to 3 inch groups at at least 50 yards (without a Ransom) to others this may vary considerably.

All in all this has been a great bunch of sincere replies and I really thank you all.

[ktw]

The surprising thing is that so many people don't like the Keith style bullets but don't seem to be sure as to why.

I haven't found the Keiths to shoot all that accurately, particularly at long range, unless you really push them hard. My experience. Other's experience may vary.

I really like the 454190 for moderate loads. It shoots very well for me in the loads that are comfortable to shoot all day long. Hands down more accurate than any Keith I've ever tried in my 45 Colts even out to a couple of hundred yards. Other short, round-flat designs may be just as good, I just haven't tried many of them. The only other bullet I have tried that comes close are the H&G68 copies, which I load and shoot in 45ACP brass (my revolver is one of the convertible models).

-ktw

[Dale53]

I have extensive experience with .44 Caliber Keith bullets and have been VERY satisfied with their accuracy. However, there are different definitions of "accuracy". When we are talking handguns, I demand less than 1" at 25 yards, 2.0-2.5" at 50 yards and around 4" at one hundred yards. I have not had a problem getting that level of accuracy with both .44 Specials and .44 Magnums using a scope and a rest (or a Ransom Rest). This is with several models, and types of both .44 Special and Magnums.

I shoot the .44 Keiths from 700 fps-1400 fps and my level of accuracy has been there.

Regarding the .45 Colt - I shot my Ruger .45 Colt Vaquero a good but with the Lyman 452664 (250 gr RF) with excellent results with both black powder and smokeless powder.

I am just starting to use the NOE 454424 Keith style bullet. The early results seem good, but I will have to wait until spring until I try it at the longer ranges.

FWIW
Dale53

[45r]

My redhawk shoots 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards using the rcbs 270SAA and the same with my 315GC Mtn Mold LBT type boolits.I really like the 270 boolits since 9 grains power pistol shoots clean and nothing I've shot with them has gotten away and the noise isn't bad.I load the 315 with heavy doses of 296 or H-110.I like having both and don't care which one is better.The 270 is a lot easier to practice with and doesn't need a GC.

[Bear4570]

I use both.

In my Smiths I use a steady diet of Keith over 8.5 gr of unique. Great load

In my Rugers and Rossi its a Keith over 18.5 of 2400 or Lee 310 FP/GC over 21.5 of H110. Both are good hunting loads but out of the 20" Rossi the Lee bullet is a sledge hammer on deer.


But if I could only have one bullet for all applications it would be the Keith.

None of the above loads show any signs of excessive pressure in my guns.