Exiting the speed of sound?

[Changeling]

Has there been any studies on revolver/pistol boolets exiting the speed of sound. The speed of calibers like the 44 mag and 45 Colt are basically in the same speed range as .22 rimfire boolets and they are affected thats why people in competition use the target ammo that doesn't break the sound barrier from the start of ignition/firing.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not familiar with "studies" of this nature, though I'm sure they have been conducted. Similar thoughts on trans-sonic stability have occurred to me, and for this reason very few of my handgun boolits get sent out faster than 1100 FPS or so. Those few that are sent downrange faster than Mach 1.0 are sent fast enough so that they stay above Mach 1.0 for the duration of their flight to the target.

Whether or not this makes an accuracy difference........dunno. Potentially, it should. I'll take any advantage I can exploit, as long as it is safe and reasonable to do so.

[Bass Ackward]

There are all kinds of aircraft studies. And after that, how many high performance aircraft do you see with a flat nose?

In the end we can fall back on the word sometimes. Sometimes it makes a difference and sometimes it don't.

Stabilization is holding that blunt nose in a forward direction. That has to be true in air going through the barrier as much as it does holding that nose going forward in flesh as it reduces velocity. There is absolutely no difference. Rotation is as much for air as it is for flesh.

Normally you read me saying it ain't rocket science, but in this case it is. This is where bullet design becomes a major factor for accuracy and a large reason that you read Veral Smith of LBT saying that his designs shoot best on the top. Large amounts of unsupported nose weight .... CAN .... cause problems for accuracy. Notice I didn't say a thing about meplat width. They are NOT necessarily the same thing. Elmer Keith believed that accuracy began to suffer at 64% meplat width. If he had widened his drive band, hardened his bullet, increased his velocity, or shortened his nose to crimp length, he could have taken that on up without a problem.

Unsupported nose weight is the key to how it affects the center of balance for long range accuracy, not how wide a meplat will be accurate.

[Bucks Owin]

Unsupported nose weight is the key to how it affects the center of balance for long range accuracy, not how wide a meplat will be accurate.
Interesting post. Doesn't a wide meplat put more weight rearward on the bullet, thus leaving less nose weight? I'm looking for a 150 yd .45 bullet for varmit "harassment"...:roll: Dennis

[fecmech]

The level of accuracy in rimfire shooting is extremely high and I think that is the reason for the standard velocity target ammo being subsonic. You need every little bit you can get! Also for outdoor shooting you will get the least amount of wind drift at just under the speed of sound. In fact wind drift will increase once you go above the speed of sound until you get to about twice the speed of sound at which point it is about the same.
With the accuracy level of most handguns and abilities of most handgun shooters I think it would be difficult to show the difference between bullets passing through the sound barrier or not.

[yondering]

The rans-sonic region probably does measureably affect heavy revolver boolit accuracy in a machine rest, but seriously, how far do you expect to be shooting with your revolver? Once you shoot this Ruger you've bought, I think you'll find that the accuracy is not fine enough to be concerned with minutia like this.


Interesting post. Doesn't a wide meplat put more weight rearward on the bullet, thus leaving less nose weight? I'm looking for a 150 yd .45 bullet for varmit "harassment"...:roll: Dennis

No, a wide meplat WFN design moves the balance point forward. Picture a pointy nose, then add more weight around that point to make it wide and flat.

150 yds? I'll just use a rifle and be sure to hit what I'm aiming at. I'll plink at targets in the gravel pit at that distance with a handgun, but shooting game at that distance is a little different. Even a coyote or groundhog deserves a clean hit.

[JSnover]

At normal handgun ranges I don't see any point in worrying about it.
For anything greater than 100 yards, I dunno. Maybe 44Man will weigh in, I'm sure he's got a few things to say about that.

[Bucks Owin]

No, a wide meplat WFN design moves the balance point forward. Picture a pointy nose, then add more weight around that point to make it wide and flat.

150 yds? I'll just use a rifle and be sure to hit what I'm aiming at. I'll plink at targets in the gravel pit at that distance with a handgun, but shooting game at that distance is a little different. Even a coyote or groundhog deserves a clean hit.

OK gotcha. BTW, I don't feel too much guilt if I blow the leg off a vermin ground squirrel that would be poisoned anyway if shooters didn't thin them out after an alfalfa cut. (When you can SEE them) And long range handgunning is my "thing" either silhouette or varmiting. My regimen is 25 to 150 yds: Target barrelled .22 or handgun. 150+ yds: P'64 M70 Featherweight .243 or .270. Varmit shooters run up scores of 500 squirrels a day if the ammo holds out and enough barrels to stay cool! I've shown this photo before, but here it is again. 150 yd handgunning isn't as unsportsmanlike as you might think. It's either a clean miss or "fur and fumes"140 yds:http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/12db6a09.jpg..... 25 yds:http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/310L001-1.jpg

[yondering]

150 yd handgunning isn't as unsportsmanlike as you might think. It's either a clean miss or "fur and fumes"140 yds:http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/12db6a09.jpg..... 25 yds:http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/310L001-1.jpg

I do agree with you on the little ground squirrels. Doesn't seem to matter where you hit them with big boolits, it still does the job. They are a lot of fun to shoot!

I understand long range handgunning being "your thing". My comments were directed more to the new inexperienced shooters amongst us who seem to intend to shoot at that distance right from the start.

[NVScouter]

Many studies on this and as it turns out the .22LR is fairly unique to the situation. Heavy 22 shorts dont break the sound barrier so are fine. .22Mags have longer in flight stabilization time so arent really effected either, as are almost all centerfires(my understanding of the tech data).

However the .22LR is a wierd bullet weight/shape/velocity combo that has proven to be effected around the 1K FPS mark. The effect is a small "wobble" as it goes subsconic effecting accuracy. Even the best .22LR bullet is basicly an aerodynamicly flawed brick with one end rounded a bit. Still at 50M a good load/rifle/shooter can plunk nice one hole groups.

When I shot smallbore I shot subsconic for range requirements not for stability since a dedicated subsconic smallbore range is vastly less costly to build and maintain. The come out to more indoor ranges and standardizing for compition. The outdoor guys prefer faster match grade stuff that is still impacting beyond the speed of sound, especialy for steel matches.


.22 rimfire boolets and they are affected thats why people in competition use the target ammo that doesn't break the sound barrier from the start of ignition/firing.

A bullet will travel at its max speed in the bore but breaks the sound barrier as it leaves the muzzle. As I said above smallbores use both ammo types depending on conditions. Also when I used to shoot almost all the target ammo was European and subsconic since they almost exclusively shoot indoors. This was purely a manufacturing issue not preference. Plus smallbore ranges are close on tiny targets...the "wobble" effect wouldnt have time to take place anyhow.

That being said. I used to take my target rifle out and headshoot sagerats at 100+ yards with match ammo and never really saw this "wobble" effect in person. I just got tired of a heavy as can be 100yard rifle :twisted:

[Bass Ackward]

Interesting post. Doesn't a wide meplat put more weight rearward on the bullet, thus leaving less nose weight? I'm looking for a 150 yd .45 bullet for varmit "harassment"...:roll: Dennis


Center of balance is extremely misleading and difficult to see for most people. The shorter and wider the nose, the closer C of B is to the actual center of the bullet. Just picture a full wadcutter. The heavier or longer a bullet per bore diameter, the more mistakes you can have in bullet design and still launch well.

The whole reason that we spin something is to travel straight through air or flesh. As many people want to speak up and say wide ain't bad, no accuracy competition in the world is shot with a wide anything. Usually not even the base of the bullet is fully wide.

Meplat width should be of little concern to most hand gunners for handgun accuracy at handgun ranges for people wanting full power with the heaviest weights per bore diameter.

It's when you want to shoot lighter (shorter) bullets per caliber or at lower velocities that you will encounter launching issues that will make it more difficult to reach the same accuracy levels.

[Changeling]

First off I never even mentioned Meplat, and I'm not concerned, I was merely wondering if any studies have been made concerning heavy revolver bullets in and out of the transonic rage. I don't intend to use this information for "Hail Mary" type shots at ranges that Keith shot. I have stated before here that my revolver shots on game (Deer) are limited to 100 yards give or take and preferably a LOT less.
I was just a question.

[Piedmont]

"Even the best .22 LR bullet is a basically an aerodynamically flawed brick with one end rounded a bit."

That is not my understanding at all. I was reading on this in older copies of Blackpowder Cartridge News. The bpcr shooters have to deal with the transsonic range of velocities every day. The author of the article I read, I'm thinking it was Dr. Richard Gunn, had even designed bullets to be stable and break the air with the least disturbance. A comment made was to look at the shape of a .22 LR bullet, that this shape was not an accident.

The Postell shape and variations of it proved to be the best for the blackpowder cartridge games, and a .22 LR bullet is basically the same thing--sort of a pointyish round nose.

[Whaump 'em]

Transonic buffet, and the "G" code I'd like to see isn't released by gubmint.
Keep velocity below 1040 fps at the muzzle, or above 1160 fps at the target.

[Bass Ackward]

First off I never even mentioned Meplat, and I'm not concerned, I was merely wondering if any studies have been made concerning heavy revolver bullets in and out of the transonic rage. I don't intend to use this information for "Hail Mary" type shots at ranges that Keith shot. I have stated before here that my revolver shots on game (Deer) are limited to 100 yards give or take and preferably a LOT less.
I was just a question.


Ahhh but you did. You just didn't know it.

Which is generally easier to make shoot? A 22 or a 45? Don't know? Just drive down the road at 50 miles an hour. Stick you hand out the window and open your hand into a knife edge then rotate your arm from the elbow area. repeat this with you hand open and turned straight up. Now move you arm again. Which has the most force to move your arm. Same with a bullet that isn't launched exactly perfectly. Or with one that is marginally stabilized as it passes back through the barrier.

The difference between how bullets act to air in general and to that range in particular IS based upon BC and mass.

[yondering]

I have stated before here that my revolver shots on game (Deer) are limited to 100 yards give or take and preferably a LOT less.
I was just a question.

Perhaps you are a very experienced and capable handgun shot, but your many questions here imply otherwise, so I have to ask, have you actually shot anything with your revolver at 100 yards? Can you keep all shots (with your hunting load) on a small paper plate at that distance, without a bench rest?

I ask because despite all the internet quarterbacking, 100 yards is still a heck of a long way to shoot with a handgun, for most people, myself included. I can hit a propane tank at that distance pretty regularly, and can usually hit clay targets with my 1911 at that distance after a shot or two to figure out the drop, but I won't try to hunt big game at 100 yards with any of my handguns.

Like I said, you may be a much better shot than me, and just because I won't doesn't mean you shouldn't; I'm just askin. You sound like a new shooter who is learning a lot, which is excellent; I just wouldn't want you to be misled.

[canyon-ghost]

Doing studies on handgun bullets is difficult but has been done. If you want to find the best information on revolvers, look to Veral Smith's book at Lead Bullet Technology. As far as the speed of sound goes, yes, at about 75 meters a 22 drops out into transonic, it widens the group at 100 meters, so does the 9mm. Since I shoot TCs with rifle rounds, the 22 Hornet stays supersonic to 100, as does the 32-20 (from a 10" barrel).
Generally, what happens is that the group widens and accuracy diminishes. Usually, you'll see this as horizontal drifting on the target some. The 7mmTCU in the avatar, is 1900 fps, small groups at 100 meters with lead, drops out at 200 and makes bigger groups that all hit paper, just not like I'd have it. Still working to see what this one will do.
Ron
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx228/3rdshooter/contenders/originalphotos008.jpg

[NVScouter]

"Even the best .22 LR bullet is a basically an aerodynamically flawed brick with one end rounded a bit."

That is not my understanding at all. I was reading on this in older copies of Blackpowder Cartridge News. The bpcr shooters have to deal with the transsonic range of velocities every day. The author of the article I read, I'm thinking it was Dr. Richard Gunn, had even designed bullets to be stable and break the air with the least disturbance. A comment made was to look at the shape of a .22 LR bullet, that this shape was not an accident.

The Postell shape and variations of it proved to be the best for the blackpowder cartridge games, and a .22 LR bullet is basically the same thing--sort of a pointyish round nose.

A .22 rimfire will always be an "aerodynamically flawed brick with one end rounded a bit" unless somebody is making some swaged ones for themselves. While that may be a possibility on this forum it isnt for everybody else.

They are limited by weights, materials, bullet base designs, rimfire priming, and nose design. If you could use a .223(not .224) 40g v-max style then things might change but even then the rifle woud have to be cut for that.

[Piedmont]

The rimfire bullet is not aerodynamically flawed. As hard as this may be for you to accept it has a better ballistic coefficient FOR ITS VELOCITY RANGE than it would if it were very pointy. The very pointy bullets only become better in higher velocity ranges.

Early in the BPCR days there were a bunch of really pointy slugs because everyone thought they would fly flatter. They didn't fly as flat.

Conversely, this is one of the reasons why most governments went to roundnose FMJ bullets (the old 175 gr 7mm, 156-160 gr 6.5, 215 gr. .303 British, and 220 gr Krag) when the new smokeless high velocity loads came on the scene. They all knew the roundnoses were best from what black powder had taught them. It took a while for most to figure out at 2,000 fps this was not so.

[Piedmont]

My reference above "early in the BPCR days" is to the rebirth of that, the competitions, in the 1980s and 90s, not back to the 1800s.

[c3d4b2]

From my understanding of what I have read in ballistics books..... When bullets fall through the trans-sonic region the shock waves cause the air flow over the bullet to be nonuniform and this causes the bullet accuracy to degrade.

I have pulled targets at 1000 yd's for a gentleman who was having trouble keeping his 308 above the speed of sound. The bullets were going through the target sideways and were all over the target. He switched to a different load that stayed above the speed of sound and there was a marked increase in the performance.

[Changeling]

Very sorry to have asked the question, It's obvious that nothing has an effect on bullets from the answers.
Oh, and thanks ever so much for the picture, I just had no idea that 100yds was so far, my, what must I have been thinking, GOLLY GEE!

[c3d4b2]

Here is a link to a book with a good explanation of external ballistics. Most of the books are heavy on theory and equations. This book is a little less complex. The book is directed towards long range ballistics, however the theory will apply to all bullet designs.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/Book.htm