Pointed rounds for 30-30 tubualrs?

[flyingstick]

I'm wanting to get a little more reach out of my 30-30. Right now I'm shooting what is supposed to be a 170 gr boolit but is really a 183 gr. due to the lapping I had to do to get it fat enough to shoot good. The 183's are great out to about 120 yards max. Lee sells a 150 grn. pointed mould for the 7.62 x 39. I know you can't use pointed J bullets in the tubular magazines but would this boolit in WW lead be dangerous in the tube?

[mooman76]

You can shoot it by just loading two at a time. One in the chamber and one in the tube.

[flyingstick]

Thanks mooman, I'm hunting some opened up land this year and need the tube full, didn't know if a pure lead nose would be hard enough to set off a primer.

[Shiloh]

You can shoot it by just loading two at a time. One in the chamber and one in the tube.

Or as a single shot only. Mooman has it correct.

You would probably get better performance with a pointed boolit. To load up the magazine with pointed boolits is a disaster waiting to happen.

You might get by for a while with lead boolits, but it is bad medicine. If one goes, they'll all go;

I believe it is Nosler or Hornady that has a pointed .30-30 bullet with the polymer tip to load in tubular magazines.

Shiloh

[badgeredd]

Yes a pointed boolit would be dangerous in a tubular magazine if it was resting on the primer of a round in front of it. Primers by nature are sensitive to impact therefore the no-no of pointed bullets/boolits in a tubular magazine. "moonman76" has the only safe alternative with pointies. I also have to mention that in all likelihood your pointed boolit will not be a good hunting boolit because it can't really be soft enough to expand and still be a functional boolit in the firing cycle. It will have a tendacy to drill right through and leave a small wound channel. That's my opinion...

Edd

[flyingstick]

Thanks folks, I will opt for the lighter flat nose mould. I have looked at the Polymer tipped Hornady rounds but find greater satisfaction taking game with the boolits I have poured.

[35remington]

I'm not sure why you're convinced flatnosed bullets of this weight are limited to 120 yards....certainly this is not from use and testing of the rounds similar to what I've done. Perhaps you're shooting them quite slowly?

I've proven, to my own satisfaction, that an aircooled wheelweight bullet driven at 2050 fps will have useful expansion to the 200 yard mark.

Since a 30-30 is capable of higher velocity than this with a cast lead bullet, or around this velocity with your ~180 grain bullet with good accuracy, I'd say your "120 yard" criteria needs reevaluation.

A 30-30 with cast is a close approximation of factory loads with jacketed bullets of 170 grain weight, given adequate and quite possible velocity with decent accuracy.

Save with the Hornady FTX bullet, a 30-30 isn't an over 200 yard gun with ANY bullet. Cast don't seem like much of a handicap.

[Leftoverdj]

Lead RN are OK in a tube mag. The Lee C312-155-2R is a bit more pointed that I would feel safe with.

[Rocky Raab]

A few comments...

First, pointed bullets are not the best idea in the .30-30, but not for the reasons usually given. The fact is that almost all are intended for much higher impact speeds than the 30-30 can generate at the muzzle, so you'd get little if any expansion. The ballistics aren't enough better to bother, either. Run them and see. A couple inches at maximum range is about it.

Then there's the old exploding tube myth. Yes, myth. The pointy bullet thing was tested a few years ago, using actual rifle tubes and springs (no rifle, though). Even spitzers wouldn't set off the next round. It took FMJ bullets to do it, and even then there was no massive kaboom. Why? Because ammo in the magazine tube IS NOT CONFINED BY A CHAMBER.

What happens (when it can be forced to happen) is that a primer pops, which pushes the bullet and powder out of the case. There's a long PHzzzzzzz sound, some smoke - and that's it.

In real life, the bullet does NOT center itself on the primer ahead. Those cartridges are pretty tapered, so the bullet point rests against the brass BETWEEN the rim and primer, or at worst in the tiny indentation at the edge of the primer. In either place, it can NOT set off the primer, no matter how hard you slam it.

But, as I said, it's pointless to load them anyway - pun intended.

[mroliver77]

I dont understand why only 120 yards. I dont have any charts here but sighted 2" - 3" high at 100 yds should give you a workable 200yd hit. energy is bleeding off fast! I "bump" the nose of pointy boolits I want to use. I find a nose punch that will flatten boolit tip when bottomed out and some pressure applied. You dont need a lot of flat for 30-30 as there is little recoil. If you cast a 2 part boolit with a pure lead nose you can get expansion from almost pointy boolits. If I were planning on 200yd shots or farther I would take more gun.
Jay

[MK111]

[QUOTE=Rocky Raab;725155]A few comments...



Then there's the old exploding tube myth. Yes, myth. The pointy bullet thing was tested a few years ago, using actual rifle tubes and springs (no rifle, though). Even spitzers wouldn't set off the next round. It took FMJ bullets to do it, and even then there was no massive kaboom. Why? Because ammo in the magazine tube IS NOT CONFINED BY A CHAMBER.

What happens (when it can be forced to happen) is that a primer pops, which pushes the bullet and powder out of the case. There's a long PHzzzzzzz sound, some smoke - and that's it.

In real life, the bullet does NOT center itself on the primer ahead. Those cartridges are pretty tapered, so the bullet point rests against the brass BETWEEN the rim and primer, or at worst in the tiny indentation at the edge of the primer. In either place, it can NOT set off the primer, no matter how hard you slam it.

I am sure glad this is the case on tube magazines not blowing up. I will contact this guy I know who done it and let him know there is nothing wrong after all with his crippled left hand. He did indeed blew up a Winchester 71. He sure will be glad to know this after suffering with that bad hand for the last thirty years that there isn't anything wrong with it. Good news.

[JDL]

IIRC, a 71 is chambered in .348 Winchester which has much more recoil than the stoutest loaded .30-30. Just out of curiosity, what kind of pointed bullet was he using in a .348?

[Gohon]

Rocky, your information is correct and it mostly is a myth that came of age many moons ago when primers were very thin and unreliable. Today's primers don't share that burden. Actually, if I recall correctly and it was the same article I read several years ago, the guy never did get the rounds to detonate in the magazine until he set up a special test rig. He was only able to get a round to go off in a magazine by hitting one with a "firing pin" in a test rig. Either way, myth or not, I don't see enough of a gain using pointed bullets in a 30-30 so I just stick to the old proven flat noses.

MK111, I once read about a guy that had a detonation in a tube of a M71 Winchester rifle. Seems it was a wildcat based on a 348 Winchester. Same guy maybe? Seems there were some wittiness's that claimed the action gave way and not a tube detonation. Either way the guy was fortunate not to have been injured more seriously.


Added: 2106

I got to thinking about pointed bullets in a tube after my last post and curiosity
got the best of me so I done some checking using LeverEvolution ammo.

First picture is how 30-30 rounds would lay in a tube.
http://i47.tinypic.com/11kup81.jpg

This picture is closer and the point doesn't even contact the primer.
http://i47.tinypic.com/zvq2au.jpg


I would think a straight wall case would allow the nose to ride higher and touching the bottom of the primer but that doesn't appear to be the case here with a bottle neck cartridge.
One can draw their own conclusions as to safe or not but it is interesting.

[leadman]

There was an article in an old American Rifleman with pictures concerning a tube full of 348s that let loose. IIRC the action was not blown.
also, when the gun is in recoil what happens to the cartridges in the tube? I would say they do not stay in the same position as in the photos, just how much movement would depend on the spring tension and the level of recoil.
I have loaded 150 gr. pointed jacketed in the 30-30 to a length to feed thru the mechanism. The ogive is quite far into the case mouth, a condition I did not like as I thought the bullet could get pushed into the case even further.

[Gohon]

I would think most likely nothing. A strong magazine tube spring is pushing the cartridges to the rear and recoil is in that same direction. I've never owned a lever action yet where I could shake the gun and hear the ammo rattle around inside. I just don't think all this movement is going on during recoil.

[lwknight]

The points on the bullets get totally screwed up and lopsided. That will play the dickens with your accuracy. Thats why they made polymer tipped bullets for the 30-30, so they would not get deformed. The poly 30-30 bullets are supposed to work at lower velocities.
I never had any reason or desire to test them.

[MT Gianni]

I saw a 92 Rossi at a gunsmith shop in Frenchtown, MT Sept of 1999 or 2000 that had 2 fire in the tube. The tube split and there was some reported hand damage. Doug Wells was asked to find out why, AIRC it was 357 loaded with SWC. This was thought to have been due to a high primer. Either way it bears careful inspection.

[1Shirt]

Not to be overly critical, but if you need over two shots for deer, you need to spend a lot more time at the range. Also, as stated by others, in cast you are far better off with a flat nose or a hp round nose blt in 30-30.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Leftoverdj]

Rocky, there are suitable pointed bullets for the .30-30, just not very many of them, and some have been discontinued, The Rem 125 Corelok works perfectly on deer at c. 2500 fps MV. So did the various 130 and 135 grain specialty bullets available during the handgun shillouette craze. Never got a chance to try the early Nosler Solid Base 150s from a .30-30, but they were so destructive from .308s that it's a cinch they would have expanded at .30-30 velocities.

I don't disagree that most pointed bullets are too tough for .30-30 velocities, but careful selection can find a few. If I had my old Rem 788 in .30-30 back, I'd be tempted to hunt up a swager to reform some .30-30 FN to spitzers.

[stephen perry]

I cast 311 410 for the 30-30. It is a 130 grn semi rd tip by Lyman. I have it in a double.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[Shiloh]

I saw a 92 Rossi at a gunsmith shop in Frenchtown, MT Sept of 1999 or 2000 that had 2 fire in the tube. The tube split and there was some reported hand damage. Doug Wells was asked to find out why, AIRC it was 357 loaded with SWC. This was thought to have been due to a high primer. Either way it bears careful inspection.

I saw a piture a while back in one of the hunting magazines at the Dentist office.
The magazine tube had ruptured from pointed rounds in it. No, when you lay the rounds down on a table the points don't line up with the primers. AN older magazine but the picture said it all.

The magazine was blown open. If you were holding that as in a hunting situation rather than at the bench, the rounds would be rupturing right above your hand.
Not something I'd want to do.

If folks choose to tempt fate by filling the magazine with pointed bullets, or boolits, do it in such a way that if it goes you hurt yourself only and not someone else.

Shiloh

[XWrench3]

well, i dont know about you, but i really LIKE my hand EXACTLY the way God made it. i am not about to go messing with pointed bullets in a tube magazine. i have and will continue to load spitzers, to put into the chamber, only. it HAS been documented that this CAN happen. the odds are probably pretty low, but still. will it blow up like a bomb? NO, but it will rupture the tube. best case scenario is your gun is all screwed up and it will cost you $100.00-150.00 or so to fix it. worse case, the ruptured tube will come out and tear up your hand. leaving you bleeding profusely in the middle of the woods, with no close mediacal attention. sorry, it is just not my cup of tea. i bought the hornady polymer (FTX) bullets. good enough for me.

[Rocky Raab]

It is certainly safER to use blunt bullets in a tube. It is also not worth the effort ballistically to use pointy ones. Those are my opinions, please note.

I can only report what I've read. The article I mentioned (I'll find it if required) could not get rounds in a magazine to go off by recoil, and when deliberately set off, did not "explode" or burst the tube.

Against that is the fact that millions upon millions of tube-fed rifles have been made, and used in the hands of untold millions of shooters. Some of those shooters, as we know all too well, have the brains of a hockey puck. That some few of them have managed somehow to hurt themselves with a tube-fed rifle and an ill-advised reload (FMJ and a case-full of Bullseye) is pretty likely.

Fortunately, none of us is that mentally challenged.

[awaveritt]

Years ago I got good accuracy from handloaded 125 gr. Sierra spitzers but never had a chance to try them on deer. As others have suggested, I chambered one and loaded another in the tube of my Marlin 336.

The various flat-nosed boolits and J-words are intended for the 30-30 and l think we tinkering types have a tendency to over-think some things.

I recently had a 9mm with a high primer detonate unexpectedly as I released the magazine slide release. That'll sober you up quick (figuritively speaking, of course)

Have fun but be safe.

[flyingstick]

Well....thanks for the Opinions. I do enjoy the diversity. I will definitley stay away from the pointed rounds. Now for the second question. I have loads worked up to 24 gr. of Reloader 7 with the 183 gr. boolits. I was uncomfortable going any higher and no other powders have given me any accuracy at all. What would a safe maxx load for that round be using Reloader 7?

[tall grass]

Someone did some extensive testing several years ago in Handloader or Rifle using actual tubes. If I recall right (which is subject to my feeble memory of course) he could get a rupture using shotgun and or pistol powders. I'll try to find my copy and see what was said.


Jim

[Rocky Raab]

I believe I'll follow my typically inverted logic with the rule: When using pointed bullets, stay away from lever guns. <wink>

My 30-30 is a bolt gun.

[9.3X62AL]

I cast 311 410 for the 30-30. It is a 130 grn semi rd tip by Lyman. I have it in a double.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

Now, how cool izzat? A 30-30 double rifle!

I think a lot of the reason for the 30-30 WCF's long and continuing success in the deer woods has to do with its bullets being optimized to the velocities they are fired at. Simple and lightly-built cup-and-core 1890s-level j-words work well at 1500-2000 FPS impact velocities.

The 30-30 also doesn't punish the shooter with recoil. Most hunters can manage its docile recoil without flinching and place shots well.

The 30-30's downrange ballistics tends to discourage hunters from making over-long shots. Somewhere at or around the 150 yard mark, we start to have second thoughts about its rainbow trajectory, and without having practiced diligently at these ranges doubt will creep in. That is a good thing, methinks. If more 30-06 and 300 Win Mag hunters had similar second thoughts about their 400 yard shooting 'skills', the game and the sport would be a lot better served.

150 yards is well within the 30-30's bailiwick, if a hunter's practice regimen addresses that distance. I would look at casting those boolits as soft points per BruceB's method, practice with homogenous-alloy castings of the same design at the same velocity, and I wish you good luck afield.

It is gratifying to see a hunter being concerned about the effectiveness of his tooling at the distances he/she will encounter the game. You do yourself--the game--and the sport considerable honor with such questions.

[StarMetal]

Al,

You hit the success reasons of the 30-30 dead on the head and driving it fully into that 2x4. I've always thought it was the right constructed bullet for it's velocity and expended most it's energy inside the deer.

Joe

[Rocky Raab]

Well, they HAVE had 115 years to tinker with it. 'Bout time they got it right, huh?

There's a reason it's still with us. Well, probably a few million reasons.