How many are casting for air guns ?

[shooter58]

I am new to casting, almost ready to get started. I have molds and a small Lee pot, got a thermometer in the mail today. I have 18 lbs of a bullet mix soft enough to scratch with my thumbnail, and am trying to connect with some free lead through a workmate with dental xray equipment connections. I think WW's will be too hard for me, but not completely sure about that. I noticed a poster or two who referred to pellet guns, so I'm not alone. Anyway, glad to be here, this place is a treasure trove of information. Mike...

[scrapcan]

What caliber of airguns are you casting for? What type of molds are you using? I would like to someday have a large bore airgun. but at this point just gathering info for the reference library.

[looseprojectile]

just showed up at the local pawn shop. An RWS Diana model 48/52 .22 caliber.
Came with a Bushnell 4-12 trophy scope. Hope the gun doesn't scramble it.
I have been casting for more than fifty years and I don't think I can compete, quality wise with the swaged pellets you can buy in tins. This rifle is super accurate with either wad cutters or pointed pellets from Crosman. There are some better ones I am told. Can someone tell me about a pellet uniformer/sizer? Are they worth screwing with?
Shot it off my front porch and hit a quarter size orange dot at forty yards regularly.
I had a Sheridan .20 caliber air gun years ago that shot round balls and conical boolits that worked very well. I can see the advantage in a heavier pellet of regular bullet shape the Sheridan has to use on small animals. The accuracy with regular pellets is what I like. I hardly ever try to discourage anyone from casting their own boolits but this is one of those times.

Life is good

[Leftoverdj]

I cast up a selection for fellow shooting a .45 cal air rifle. Got reports back for a while. Worked well enough so he took game with them. IIRC, he was getting about 650 fps with 185 to 200 grain bullets.

[shooter58]

I have been into airguns since I was a young kid, now I'm a 65 year old kid. I used to have .222, .243. .308 and reloaded for them, thought about casting for them, but never did. I gradually sold 'em off, been exclusively airguns for 20+ years. I used to hunt small game & varmints and now only hunt varmints. I am going to cast for a 9mm Career Ultra, a six shot lever action which puts .360 round ball down range at 900 fps or so. I haven't run it across the chrony, but they advertise it at 980, I think. It will feed 100 gr boolits & I have some 75 gr HP's that will completely mess up a groundhog's whole day.
This being a boolit forum, I suppose I shouldn't get carried away about airguns... I'd welcome PM's or email though... I'm a shameless airgun enabler, will bend your ear a long time...

[looseprojectile]

Like that are a different story. I've been looking for one of the larger bore guns and have also thought of making my own. Don't let me discourage you. At one point in my life I worked with a six stage compressor. The technology is there we just have to use it. Sometimes fire stations surplus out high pressure compressors and I have had my eye out for one of those. The larger air guns are a fun hobby in areas where firearms are highly restricted also. Tell me more about your gun and ammo in 9mm. I have always thought a 30 caliber would be good.

Life is good

[XWrench3]

actually, that thought just crossed my mind yesterday. but, i think i would have to have a mold custom made. i shoot a 5mm sheridan. pellets are hard enough to come by. i cant imagine ANYONE making a 5mm airgun mold, let alone a hollow base 5mm mold. i will probably have to shoot boughten pelets.

[Pepe Ray]

I don't think casting boolets can or should be limited to powder burning, either Black or Smokeless.
Count me among the interested. The larger the caliber the better.
Pepe Ray

[Leftoverdj]

Shooter, one of the first mould group buys was for a .177 pellet mould. so we're OK with boolits for air guns or even sling shots.

Have you tried 000 buck in your 9mm air rifle? Hornady makes their 000 too small but .360 is standard. It would be soft enough, and it's graphited which would serve for lube.

[Blacksmith]

Just so you know.
The ten ring on a standard 10 meter (33 feet) airgun target measures 0.5 mm in diameter which is about the size of a period "." at the end of a sentence. I coach junior shooters that regularly score tens offhand with iron sights.

Blacksmith :holysheep

PS - I can't do it eyes are too old.

[shooter58]

I have a .22 mold that was designed for air gun barrels but I 've never tried it yet. I understand that there were stability problems with the design of the boolit and the thinking was that it needed to be supersonic to stabilize. It was said to do better shot backwards... it is a boat tail spitzer design and boy, does it look tiny to me. I will try to cast a few when I get up and running. I can definitely get 'em supersonic.. I'll be curious to see if I can even make one, regardless of how it performs. Can I expect to do well enough with pure lead or do I need a smidge of tin due to the small size of the boolit ? I've been reading here steadily for several days now and haven't melted anything yet, LOL.
For the 9mm, I do well with the .360 Hornady ball and a .356 boolit made by a dedicated airgunner. I have a mold I'm going to send to Buckshot to be modified, a 6 cav. .356" Lee. I also have a round ball and a 2 cav. 102 gr Lee mold, so I have plenty to play with. I spent all day working on a friend's air rifle or I'd have tried some casting today.

[Butcher45]

This being a boolit forum, I suppose I shouldn't get carried away about airguns... I'd welcome PM's or email though... I'm a shameless airgun enabler, will bend your ear a long time...

Are you kidding?

Bigbore airguns are the boolit casters dream come true to many. No primer, powder, or case required, propellant ranges from cheap, to free, and accuracy that leaves most handguns in the dust.

Do a search for bigbore airguns on here, and you should find some posts I have made about these airguns.

LeftoverDJ was kind enough to send me samples of several designs awhile back (thanks again. LeftoverDJ) and I used the last Lyman#45266 I had to take out the brain of a small eater boar. I need to get me some more of those #45266's....they were very accurate out of my power-tuned SamYang 909.

Lee 452252 compliments of LeftoverDJ. These are going around 650fps.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5534.jpg

Carnage from a #45266 (again, from LeftoverDJ) at around 700fps.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/Headshot.jpg

LeftoverDJ also sent me some 452389's that displayed impressive accuracy at 25 meters.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5510.jpg

Devastators at around 740-750fps recovered from saturated phonebooks.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/DSCN5688.jpg

The latest and greatest in bigbore airgun hunting boolits.... the WFN series (approx 240, 250, 265, and 275 grains). This grouping is three shots of the approx. 240grain version, shot at 50 yards (off the steady stix). Only group I shot that day with them after getting sighted-in. Small squares are .5 inch. Impressive!

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/WFN003.jpg

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/Oct9001.jpg


Soon I will have an air rifle that will have you all flabbergasted. Handgun-range Elk rifle type impressive, using a 340grain .45 slug. Could go bigger, but why?

[shooter58]

Hi Butcher,
I recognize your login from the yellow forum and maybe others I think. Yeah, I’m lusting after a .45 myself later on. I have a Sam Yang Sumatra which I really like, and have read about the modded 909’s… impressive.
I have been reading and re-reading stuff on here prior to trying any casting. I don’t want to meet the tinsel fairy, for sure… a learning curve on the boolits, I expect, but I’ll get there. I have 15 years worth of flattened pellets to turn into boolits, that’s a start. I need to get mold lube and then I should be ready for an attempt, think I have everything else.

[scrapcan]

Shooter58,

I have been interested in large bore airguns for a long time, just could not aford one when available. I spent a few hours at the cody firearms museum a few hears ago when they had the airgun exhibit. I have to say there were a lot of options int he mid 1800's for airgunners.

I have some corbin LSWC swage dies that might be able to crank out some dead soft lead, not sure but I think I have a hollow base punch. These woudl make a semi wadcutter or button nose WC type bullet. I can also make a hollow base WC or a button base longer nose SWC.

Also have a set of c-h swage dies for HP and FN, only have flatbase punch fo these.

All of these would be smooth sided and not sure if that would carry the lube you need.

If interested I could post some pictures.

[PolarWolf]

Casting lead for airguns is a very popular passtime here (The Netherlands). I've seen .224, .25, .266, .32, .38, .45 and .50 being shot in small, medium and bigbore airguns in various shapes. Largest output sofar: 675ft/lbs or so, and that wasn't even the largest caliber ;) I've 5 .224 moulds myself, and I'm working on getting my Daystate Airranger .223 in order. Guesstimated output, around 120 ft/lbs by the time I'm done, shooting 55 grain boolits.

So yeah, it's being done, and on a fairly large scale too, at least out here. The reason of course is availability and price of those big slugs. Besides, it's fun.

[shooter58]

Are you using pure lead or a soft alloy ? I bought some cast bullets which were too hard. I think I'll start with casting pure lead and see how I do.

[GBertolet]

Where about would you look for an airgun mold for 7 to 9 gr in .177 or 14 to 18 gr in .22 cal?

[PolarWolf]

Are you using pure lead or a soft alloy ? I bought some cast bullets which were too hard. I think I'll start with casting pure lead and see how I do.

Pure lead, in general. I once dumped the contents of my pellet trap into the pot and cast ingots from that. Sometimes I drop one of those into the melt which gives me a nice alloy to cast from. Nice and shiny, well filled out and yet not too hard. What's in it I've no clue but it works.

Casting actual airgun pellets...I don't know. It could be done, I guess. I know Corbin has a die for its swaging presses which yields airgun pellets, and I vaguely recall the existance of a mould for casting. I've a .22 mould for airgun pellets, actually. It's a pointy pellet and a royal pain to cast. They came in .177, .20, .22 and .25. They're known as "LEM" moulds.

A while ago I asked about having a .20 (5.05mm) mould made, but that was cost prohibitive. I was basically after a scaled down .224 to shoot in my Evanix AR5, preferably with a weight of around 25 grains.

So yeah, there's a lot to be found. Unfortunately there's a lot of questions and few answers.

Here's some links for ya:

http://www.beemans.net/airgun_projectiles.htm
http://www.airgundevelopment.com/mold.html
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=26567
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=40756
http://www.airgunforum.net/agf/index.php?showtopic=44546

[Marlin Junky]

I was thinking about buying a .22 caliber AirForce Condor (supposed to be the most powerful .22 air rifle on the market today... and accurate too) and casting little bitty .22 HP boolits for it. Am I nut's? Supposidly the Condor drives 30 grain pellets to over 900 fps and can produce several (about 15, IIRC) accurate shots on a single fill at that velocity. It'll drive lighter pellets supersonic but the accuracy falls apart. I was thinking of getting a .22 caliber boolit mold even though I've never cast anything smaller than .30 cal and having it hollow pointed to get the weight down to about 25 grains. Is this doable or just a recipe for frustration?

Basically, I want to use the gun for the same type of shooting that would normally be done with a .22 rimfire. I don't know at this point what the bore/groove diameters of the Condor's Lothar Walther barrel are; however, the rate of twist is 1:16.

Thanks,
MJ

[Butcher45]

I was thinking about buying a .22 caliber AirForce Condor (supposed to be the most powerful .22 air rifle on the market today... and accurate too) and casting little bitty .22 HP boolits for it. Am I nut's? Supposidly the Condor drives 30 grain pellets to over 900 fps and can produce several (about 15, IIRC) accurate shots on a single fill at that velocity. It'll drive lighter pellets supersonic but the accuracy falls apart. I was thinking of getting a .22 caliber boolit mold even though I've never cast anything smaller than .30 cal and having it hollow pointed to get the weight down to about 25 grains. Is this doable or just a recipe for frustration?

Basically, I want to use the gun for the same type of shooting that would normally be done with a .22 rimfire. I don't know at this point what the bore/groove diameters of the Condor's Lothar Walther barrel are; however, the rate of twist is 1:16.

Thanks,
MJ


If you want to truly use the rifle like a .22RF, and also want to cast your own HP's, then I would suggest you go with .25 caliber instead. That way you could keep the weight of those HP's up to take advantage of the power, and make casting the slugs a bit easier.

The difference in power between .22, and .25 is like night and day.

I highly suggest the Sumatra over the Condor. Much easier to dial-in, and has just as much, if not more power than the Condor. I am under the impression you will get a higher shot count with the Sumatra as well (especially with the 500cc version).

I have steered others from the Condor to the Sumatra, and they have no regrets what-soever.

The Sumatra is also a 6 shot lever action repeater........huge advantage over the slow-loading Condor.

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks Butcher45...

I'll look into the Sumatra. Do you own a Condor?

MJ

[Butcher45]

Thanks Butcher45...

I'll look into the Sumatra. Do you own a Condor?

MJ

I used to. Bought it in .22, than added a .25 barrel. Sold it to finance a hoghunt in Oklahoma.

That said, my next .25 will be a Sumatra;)

[Marlin Junky]

The Sumatra holds 380cc of air vs. 490cc of air for the Condor. If the Condor can do 1000+ fps for 20-30 shots with a 21 grain pellet, it would follow that the Sumatra would do less. In this case, more is more and I'm looking for as much as possible both in terms of energy and shots per fill. Supposedly, the .25 caliber Sumatra will do up to 55 ft-lbs, the Condor is supposed to deliver up to 65 ft-lbs in .22 caliber. Yeah, I'd like to have a repeater, but accuracy is more important to me than a fast follow up shot.

I just checked the manufacture spec's and the Sumatra claims approx. 15 full power shots per fill. Not that I would exclusively use a cast boolet in this gun, but there should be more .22 cal mold choices out there than suitable .25's.

MJ

[Butcher45]

The Sumatra holds 380cc of air vs. 490cc of air for the Condor. If the Condor can do 1000+ fps for 20-30 shots with a 21 grain pellet, it would follow that the Sumatra would do less. In this case, more is more and I'm looking for as much as possible both in terms of energy and shots per fill. Supposedly, the .25 caliber Sumatra will do up to 55 ft-lbs, the Condor is supposed to deliver up to 65 ft-lbs in .22 caliber. Yeah, I'd like to have a repeater, but accuracy is more important to me than a fast follow up shot.

I just checked the manufacture spec's and the Sumatra claims approx. 15 full power shots per fill. Not that I would exclusively use a cast boolet in this gun, but there should be more .22 cal mold choices out there than suitable .25's.

MJ

I guess you missed the 500cc version of the Sumatra hehe.

How many cc's the reservoir will hold doesn't tell the whole story. The efficiency of the valve is a big factor. AirForce guns are not exactly known to be efficient. I am confident that you will get more shots out of the Sumatra (remember I owned a Condor both .22 and .25).

Also, the .25 Sumatra will get you closer to the 85+fpe range right out of the box (even with the carbine version). They are a lot more powerful than advertised. With 55+grainers, you are looking at 100fpe.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the maximum advertised fpe numbers for the Condor are achieved by pushing the pellets so fast that accuracy goes out the window (especially in .22). The Sumatra gets it's 85fpe using 43grain pellets at around 950fps, which is about as fast as you can push a pellet without having the accuracy suffer.

You may have a point with mold availability, though the Sumatra barrels (along with the rest of the Korean barrels) are a bit larger diameter than the LW barrels. Shouldn't be anything the right sizer can't handle.

I'll stop trying to twist your arm now hehe. I just need to add that I wish I had bought a Sumatra instead of the Condor to begin with. I don't think I could have brought myself to sell a Sumatra, whereas I was not to heart-broken after selling the Condor.

[Bob.]

Hello Butcher45 !
I remember you from the Y-forum and the AA forum .
Just looked at the old Shiloh hog hunt pics not long ago!
I still use a 22 cal for all the small game and varmints, yep still have a Theoben MK II.

Nice seeing your post on the Cast Boolets forum!


Bob L.

[Butcher45]

Hello Butcher45 !
I remember you from the Y-forum and the AA forum .
Just looked at the old Shiloh hog hunt pics not long ago!
I still use a 22 cal for all the small game and varmints, yep still have a Theoben MK II.

Nice seeing your post on the Cast Boolets forum!


Bob L.


Nice to hear from you Bob!

[Marlin Junky]

Butcher45,

I don't see any of this as arm twisting and I appreciate your input more than you know. Some links to Sumatra guns would be nice.

Thanks,
MJ

[Butcher45]

LOL about the arm-twisting thing......I'm just trying to talk you into the rifle that I think will best suit your needs for the best deal.

These links should keep you busy for a minute.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1208665414/New+Sumatra+500+-+First+test+-+Pics

This next one is a .22 note how the power wheel is clicked up every so many shots to keep the fps within a certain range. Works the same way with the .25

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1198034415/New+Sumatra+500cc

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1169439697/Sumatra+-25+and+fill+pressure---

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1224130317/Chrony+of+Sumatra+2500+.25+Rifle

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1166422806/Any++Sumatra+on+.25+owners-+is+it+accurate-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1213163178/Sumatra+500cc+-25+vs-+Tuned+condor-talon+-25

[scrapcan]

Butcher45,

Once again thanks for keeping the info on airguns going here also. I am gradually trying to work my way towards a mid or large bore airgun. I just bought a cheap qb79 gas gun to play with. to get used to the gas fed instead of springers. Man is it way easier to shoot but not as powerful as the RWS36, at least at this point.

I found a link a while back for building a high pressure hand pump on one of the lathe projects sites. I can not seem to find it again. Any idea on where one might get plans for a hill type pump.

One thing to remember is the cost of fill aparatus, wether it be manual pump ( approx $200), scuba tank and fill adapter, or mechanical/electric high pressure pump. You must figure that in on the intital I want to get into the game.

[scrapcan]

here is a 707 on gunbroker that comes with scuba tank and fill adapter. If I had the money I would try but I need to pass some other powder burners along first.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=157884881

butcher45 is the price in line? I seem to think it is from reading the network54 forums.

[Butcher45]

here is a 707 on gunbroker that comes with scuba tank and fill adapter. If I had the money I would try but I need to pass some other powder burners along first.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=157884881

butcher45 is the price in line? I seem to think it is from reading the network54 forums.

The problem there is that the tank is only rated for 3000psi, which is also the pressure you fill the rifle. This means that with a slight overfill in the tank, you will only get to completely fill the rifle a couple of times before the pressure in the tank drops.

If you want to go the tank route for filling, I suggest looking into the 4500psi carbon fiber SCBA tanks (like fireman use). You will be able to fill your rifle 30+times with a CF tank.

[Marlin Junky]

A carbon fiber tank is definitely the way to go but they're as expensive as a good rifle and where do you get them filled?

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Butcher45,

Which of the two airguns (Condor or Sumatra) would be better suited to adjust to backyard pest elimination in the 'burbs (ground squirrels and woodpeckers)? I got the impression the Sumatra's adjustment wheel doesn't provide much latitude while the Condor can be adjusted from about 600 fps to 1200+ fps (in .22 cal). I do like the Sumatra 2500/500cc and it may be better suited in .25 caliber for 50-100 yard range use but it looks well, bulky. Which of the two rifles has the better trigger system (for stoning or tuning down to a crisp two pound pull)?

Thanks again,
MJ

[Butcher45]

Butcher45,

Which of the two airguns (Condor or Sumatra) would be better suited to adjust to backyard pest elimination in the 'burbs (ground squirrels and woodpeckers)? I got the impression the Sumatra's adjustment wheel doesn't provide much latitude while the Condor can be adjusted from about 600 fps to 1200+ fps (in .22 cal). I do like the Sumatra 2500/500cc and it may be better suited in .25 caliber for 50-100 yard range use but it looks well, bulky. Which of the two rifles has the better trigger system (for stoning or tuning down to a crisp two pound pull)?

Thanks again,
MJ

I'm taking my tanks to a paintball place. You can get them filled at a firehouse if they will do it for you (helps to know someone). Bring coffee grounds and a smile when you go ask them, and let them know you will not be using it for breathing air. Showing them the air rifle might help get a foot in the door as well. A few dive shops will fill to 4500psi but it isn't all that common.

A shrouded Condor would be the best bet for suburban pest control (unless you have a silencer tax stamp.....the Sumatra comes with a threaded barrel). Without a shroud or silencer they are both way to loud for the suburbs.

[Butcher45]

A carbon fiber tank is definitely the way to go but they're as expensive as a good rifle and where do you get them filled?

MJ

Forgot to say, this guy has good deals on CF Tanks. Tanks are good for 15 years from manufacture date, and require a hydro test (which cost me about $5) every 5 years.

http://www.hamcontact.com/airgun/HoseAssembly/

Also forgot to add this when you asked about where to get them filled......should be of help to somebody.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1185242078/EVERYONE+Please+where+you+get+your+4500+PSI+Fills+ and+we+can+bookmark+it

[Butcher45]

For anyone casting your own big game hunting boolits for the 909, you will probably want to try the mold that drops the very first boolits designed specifically for Sam Yang 909 guns. I'm talking about the LBT WFN series designed by none other than Veral Smith.

Veral had not realized that bigbore airguns existed until I brought them to his attention a couple of years ago, and asked him to design the LBT bigbore airgun boolits. This bigbore airgun version of the WideFlatNose (made specifically for SamYang barrels/rifling) is available in four different weights between approx. 240 and 270grains.

They hit the spinner incredibly hard! I have only been able to test the 240grainer version for accuracy thus far, but as you can see it does pretty well at 50 yards. This is a typical 50yard group from my 909 off the steady stix.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/Oct9001.jpg


Sorry for the poor picture......hard to see here, but the bands are very narrow.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x65/butcher45/WFN003.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

According to Pyramid Air, the Sumatra 2500 in .22 cal has the following barrel spec's:

R.O.T = 1:18
Bore dia. = .216"
Groove dia. = .222"
(.003" deep grooves)

I've never cast for a .22 caliber rifle so I need a little help determining if this rifle can be adapted to cast boolits. I would imaging the proper boolit diameter would be .2220-.2225" because anything over that diameter would cause too much friction and therefore low velocity. I would suspect the proper boolit mold that was hollow pointed to create around a 40 grain boolit, cast in soft lead might work at about 900 fps... but that's just a WAG. I'm assuming a mold from the big three would need to have the blocks milled down to the point where the gas check shank is removed.

Thanks,
MJ

[Butcher45]

I don't see why they couldn't shoot cast. Remember to take into account any choke the barrel may have when sizing.

I think the main concern would be whether or not the barrel twist could stabilize the longer boolits. I have no idea.