Follow-up to earlier thread - Browning single shots

[Naphtali]

In my earlier thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61165 I queried differences between Winchester/USRAC and Browning M1885 single shots.

To request information on the differences among various Browning-Miroku [ONLY] 1878s and 1885 single shots is, I think, a different thing?

Specifically, I need information on a M1885 45-70, 28-inch octagonal barrel, with scope rings. Does a model of this description include tang satisfactory for mounting sight assembly, or is it drilled-and-tapped for any tang sight? If it is not set-up for any tang sight assembly, can it be?

What are differences between this model of the 1885 and Browning M1878 or M1885 Browning designated as intended for black powder cartridge (target) shooting?

[Bullshop]

I am not sure at what point they began to make all models with the upper tang.
I am sure that no B-78's had the upper tang.
I think when they went to the 1885 model designation the early rifles had no upper tang.
Somewhere later in the 1885 model series they began to use the upper tang.
I think but am not sure that all models after the first 1885 BPCR Creedmoor style have upper tangs. I say Creedmoor style because there was an actual Creedmoor model with a 34" barrel instead of the standard 30".
Now the current run of BPCR stamped Winchester are all referred to as creedmoor.
As I understand it there are two current models the Creedmoor and the Hunter in addition to the limited run models for Davidsons like the 16" trapper model. The model you are referring to with 28" tapered octi barrel is the Hunter, and the Creedmoor has the 30" half round half octi.
Another difference that I don't care for is the rebounding hammer on the newer models.
The older B-78 had a half cock hammer that I prefer.
Hope maybe I was of some help. As always anything I say is subject to change without notice so don't bet your life on it.
BIC/BS

[August]

The 1885s with a tang are called "Hunters"

They came with a tang site.

If the gun does not presently have any tang site, it probably doesn't have a tang.

The other feature unique to the "Hunter" was a crescent buttplate. The standard (shotgun) buttplate guns have no tang.

As far as I know, the B-78s were made with an octagon barrel as were the "Hunters". So, the barrel is not a definitive clue.

Further, I would speculate that, if it has rings, it probably doesn't have a tang. The B-78s came with rings because they didn't have iron sights. While the "Hunters" are tapped for scopes, they did not come with rings.

Are you "looking" at a specific gun, or just trying to sort out the breed???

With respect to installing a tang sight on the wooden stock, I'd pass on that.

The "Black Powder" guns came with Badger Barrels, which many feel is the best barrel available for lead and black powder -- me among them. Some (the ones in 40-65 caliber) were labeled "Black Powder Only" out of deference to the fact that no SAMMI specs for that cartridge exist and the lawyers got involved, I'm sure. You can't overload a black powder cartridge....

[Bullshop]

August
Please do not take offence friend but I will have to disagree.
As you say the Hunter is a specific model having the straight tapered 28"octagon barrel and steel crescent butt and came with a Marbles type tang sight.
Now there is another model with tang and that is the BPCR silhouette with 30" half octagon half round barrel with steel shotgun butt.
None of the B-78's had an upper tang. There was a transition model that was just called the 1885 chambered in modern cartridges like 30/06, 270 Win 22/250 etc..
Those guns had straight tapered octagon barrels 28" long and had rubber recoil pads. These transition guns did not have the upper tang for mounting a sight.
After the transition model I believe all models come with the upper tang and that continues now with both the hi and low wall models.
Current models are of course stamped Winchester not Browning.
I have all accept one model of the hi wall. I have a b-78, 2 silhouette, and 1 hunter.
The one I don't have is the transition with rubber butt and 28" tapered octagon barrel.
I sure would like to have that one in a 30/06. I think with heavy bullets and slow powders that 28" barrel will give some impressive velocities.
BTW all models are D&T for Browning bases
BIC/BS

[Gunlaker]

Specifically, I need information on a M1885 45-70, 28-inch octagonal barrel, with scope rings. Does a model of this description include tang satisfactory for mounting sight assembly, or is it drilled-and-tapped for any tang sight? If it is not set-up for any tang sight assembly, can it be?



I just picked up a used Browning 1885 in .45-70 with scope rings and a Browning tang sight on it. I believe it's the hunter model as it has the crescent buttplate. I do not know if the tang was drilled from the factory or if it was done at a later date. The tang site is a pretty nice piece too.

I haven't had a chance to try this rifle out yet, but I have another one in .270 Winchester and its very accurate.

You can get some info from the Browning web site. Enter 1885 in the search box. It has info on serial #'s and dates of manufacture. Factory manuals can also be downloaded.

Chris.

[Nrut]

After the transition model I believe all models come with the upper tang and that continues now with both the hi and low wall models
Dan..
I have most of the calibers offered in the Miroku/Browning 1885 LOW WALLS and the only ones that have top tangs with tang sights where the ones chambered in the 45 Colt, 44 mag. and 357 mag. The 260, 243, 223, and 22 Hornet do not have tangs. Miroku/Winchester just started offering these Low Walls for sale again and I bet they don't have top tangs either..
I may be wrong but I don't think any of the "rubber butt pad" HIGH WALLS have top tangs either..

[August]

August
Please do not take offence friend but I will have to disagree.
As you say the Hunter is a specific model having the straight tapered 28"octagon barrel and steel crescent butt and came with a Marbles type tang sight.
Now there is another model with tang and that is the BPCR silhouette with 30" half octagon half round barrel with steel shotgun butt.

BIC/BS

Yes, Sir. Sorry for any confusion I caused. Didn't mention the BPCR because it seemed to me the OP was certainly not talking about that model. Didn't mean to imply that BPCRs didn't have tangs.

I have a 45-70 Hunter (Browning), a 38-55 "Hunter" (Winchester, Davidsons Special), and two 45-70 BPCR Brownings. All, as you note, have tangs.

I went to the Cody Museum and stood in front of Hi=Wall Number 1 for almost an hour. I think the guards were concerned about me. Anywho, the John Browning single shot rifle is the most beautiful firearm ever made. If you say otherwise, you're wrong.

I wish the OP would give us a link or pictures to the rifle he's considering.

[Doc Highwall]

I bought a Browning 78 when they first came out in 45-70 and it had a 24" octagon barrel with sights and a curved steel butt plate. My brother bought one in 22-250 and it has a 28" octagon barrel with no sights and came with scope rings and like all the other calibers has a rubber butt plate.

[Bullshop]

NRut
I was wrong about the low walls then, sorry. I really have now experience with those but only assumed they were the same as the hi wall.
Doc
For some weird reason I never understood only the B-78 in 45/70 had the steel crescent butt and the shorter octagon barrel. I believe all other B-78's had a 26" either heavy round or tapered octagon barrel with conventional butt.
The B-78 45/70 was on par with the Ruger #3 for shooter discomfort.
BIC/BS

[Naphtali]

Many thanks, guys, for the information. One clarification to go.

Let us assume the Browning M1885 rifle has Winchester/USRAC-type rebounding hammer assembly.

1. What can be done to alter to half-cock notch? I anticipate the firing pin [originally] requires a full-cock hammer strike to reach primer of chambered round?? I hope that altering to half-cock would retain this safety feature?

2. Are any parts or parts kits available to convert rebounding hammer to half-cock? For example, you have identified the M1878 series as having what I prefer. But will these parts fit the M1885? Are these parts even available?

[Bullshop]

I have not done any conversion to the rebounding hammer but there was just recently a thread about how to. Seems like it was just a month or so ago.
Maybe someone will know how to find it.
BIC/BS

[jfg]

I have an 1885 Limited Series Winchester/Miroku 45-70 from Davidson's
28" tapered barrel, W/tang & tang sight, steel curved butt plate. It Does Not have a rebounding hammer.
On the other hand, I have an 1886 Limited Series Winchester/Miroku from Davidson's, that Does/Did have a rebounding hammer. I modified it and it went away. Before, I was having some light hammer hits and fail to fire. After the mod. it fires every time.
Both are outstanding shooters.

[texasmac]

Hey guys,

Using the term "rebounding hammer" for the Browning or Winchester M1885's is a misnomer. None of the Browning or Winchester M1885 High Walls have a rebounding hammer. For added safety, the action does have a component called the hammer sear, which is separate from the trigger sear . In actual operation the hammer sear is an inertial sear, making it just about impossible for the hammer to be in a fired position (pressed against the firing pin) without intentionally firing the rifle. If the hammer is manually lowered from the full cock position it rests in what is referred to as a half-cock position. In the half-cock position the hammer is held by the hammer sear. When the rifle is fired (from the full cock position) the hammer sear is thrown (quickly rotated) backward and it cannot catch the hammer. Therefore the hammer is able to strike the firing pin. If the hammer speed is slowed down in any way due to crud, fouling, weak mainsprings, or lowered manually, it will be caught by the hammer sear and held in the half-cock position.

On a firearm with a rebounding hammer, the hammer strikes then automatically backs away (rebounds) from the firing pin. A good example is the more recent Winchester model '94 lever action rifles. After firing, the Win. or Browning M1885 hammer stays in contact with the firing pin until manually pulled back to the half-cock or full-cock position or the action is opened by lowering the lever.

If you are interested in additional details on the operation of the 1885 action, check out my book on the Browning & Winchester BPCRs at www.texas-mac.com.

Wayne

[semtav]

Waynes book is a must have if you own the Browning or newer Winchester 1885 BPCR's

Now if I can get my hands on one of those 34" Browning or Winchester 45-90's, I may have to read it 3 or 4 more times.

[texasmac]

As a follow up comment, I might add that the hammer sear can be modified to eliminate the half-cock feature, but doing so will eliminate a key safety feature of the M1885 rifles & could result in decrease primer ignition reliability.

I do know of rifle owners that have eliminated the half-cock feature because of problems with the rifle catching in the half-cock position when fired. They took the easy (unsafe) route rather then trying to figure out the root cause or take the rifle to a knowledgeable gunsmith.

Wayne

[texasmac]

semtav,

There is a Winchester 34" Creedmoor (with sights) listed on www.GunsAmerica.com. The guy says he has 4 Creedmoor's available. Do a search for item # 923030264. From what I can tell it is the 34" model with sights. He's asking $2,295.00, but he may take a lower price. Give it a shot. I sold 29 of the 34" Win. Creedmoor's and I'm all out of them. As you know Win. has no plans to make any more and Davidson's (the distributor) sold the last one of the 251 (total made) Creedmoor's on 5/22/09.

Wayne

[semtav]

I contacted the guy with the 4 guns. he wouldn't send me a picture of the 4 guns so I could pick out the one I liked ( wood grain) so I'm not too sure I want to do business with him. Minor point I know, but if he's too busy to do that he's probably too busy to deal with me.

I just missed a nice one at Cabela's for $1400.

[Bullshop]

We have a hunter model for sale at auction. There are no bids at this time so I could pull it.
Its a 45/70 hunter model rechamberd to 45/120. Comes with a bunch of extras.
I may be offering two others soon. They are the creedmoore models in 45/70 and 50/90 and will also have lots of extras. I also have a B-78 in 405 Win but that one will likely stay here for some time to come.
If your interested PM me.
BIC/BS

[semtav]

Thanks, but if I get one, its gotta be the Creedmoor with the 34" Badger barrel.

[45r]

My Win 45-70 Sporter has a tang also.It is very accurate and shoots MOA with 5 different boolits and puts 300 grain sierra J-word HP's into a ragged hole at 100 yards with 51 grains IMR 4198.The 24 inch barrel makes it feel just right for woods hunting and tree stand hunting in my area.It is one of my favorite rifles.I'm glad it has the soft recoil pad when shooting 420 grain boolits around 1800 fps.Maybe I'll get one with a curved butt-plate someday.They sure are fine looking rifles.The trigger seems fine to me and I don't see any need to change it when one inch groups are common with several loads.I'm glad I got one,I think they only made around 500.