Crimp die problem with Lee.

[Changeling]

I do not like using the bullet seating die to crimp the bullet in place. I have always did the crimping as another step, this is just the way I like it done.

I have heard that a lot of people like the Lee factory crimp die witch I have never used so I went to there web site and read about this die. They refer to it as a "Taper Crimp".
I do NOT want to taper crimp a 45LC case I want it roll crimped but Lee doesn't seem to sell a "Roll" crimp die. What is going on?

[c.r.]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=217484

[jh45gun]

It is not a taper crimp it is a roll crimp I use one for my ammo.

[Changeling]

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=217484

Thanks CR, when I went to the LEE web site I could swear that they called it a "taper crimp".

Is this die, the LEE crimp die come in 2 styles, taper/roll ?

I'll go back an read it again.


I went back and reread it, you were absolutely right, it plainly says "Roll Crimp" . Sorry for the inconvenience to everyone.

[Frank]

The roll crimp was more accurate for me than the Lee factory crimp. I tried it both ways. I think the reason is that the std roll crimp opens up easier and the Lee sizes the bullet.

[Dale53]

I load for .45 Colt, .45 ACP, and .45 Auto rim (amongst several other calibers).

My Lee Factory Crimp .45 Colt roll crimps.

My .45 ACP Factory crimp die taper crimps.

I called Lee, talked to a technician, regarding using the .45 Colt roll crimp insert in my .45 ACP die when I wanted to roll crimp the Auto Rim cases when using heavy bullets with a crimp groove. He explained that the inserts are different lengths. However, they will sell a roll crimp insert for the .45 ACP but you also need a "spacer" which they also supply. The price for both pieces is small, the delivery was quick and the roll crimp insert for the .45 Auto Rim works perfectly.

When you have a specific question regarding a tool it is often more productive to call the manufacturer and ask THEM for help.

Just a thought or two...

Dale53

[Frank]

Here's the Lee Factory Crimp for the 45LC.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1614

[Frank]

Seating die roll crimp.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1617

[44man]

I would not be without the Lee FCD. I found a perfect use for it. Some boolits I had that someone sent me were too small for the gas check so I set the FCD up to crimp the top of the gas check, worked like a charm. [smilie=l:

[Frank]

What do you use, 44man? Actually, I think there's a problem with the roll crimp and .45 Colt. It doesn't iron out the bell. Look at the above pic. So maybe the Lee die, or a TC die is best.

[Tazman1602]

I do not like using the bullet seating die to crimp the bullet in place. I have always did the crimping as another step, this is just the way I like it done.

I have heard that a lot of people like the Lee factory crimp die witch I have never used so I went to there web site and read about this die. They refer to it as a "Taper Crimp".
I do NOT want to taper crimp a 45LC case I want it roll crimped but Lee doesn't seem to sell a "Roll" crimp die. What is going on?

Lee factory crimp is a collet type press crimp man. A "taper crimp" is meant to be used on cases like .45 ACP which headspaces on the MOUTH of the case, use a roll crimp on that and you'll have feeding issues or worse.

On your .45LC that Lee factory crimp die should work dandy but watch for pressure signs...........don't ask me how I know that about factory crimp dies and rifle cartridges...........<grin>

EDIT: My above post is based entirely on my use of the FCD on rifle cartridges -- I may be WAY off base with the use of the FCD for revolvers as I am finding out. Not confirmed, just a suspicion at this time that the FCD for pistols is sizing my bullets down with that carbide ring and ruining my carefully calibrated sizing process. The rifle dies work entirely different from the pistol dies.............I'll keep you informed.

[MtGun44]

I believe that there are two Lee "factory crimp dies" - one, which I have used only in
rifle cartridges, but may be made for pistols too, I don't know, is a collet type crimper.

The other is basically a full length sizing die set to some size which is intended to make
sure that the finished cartridge will fit the chamber. This die has been implicated in
sizing down cases which resulted in loss of neck tension when the boolit was sized
down, apparently due to thicker than usual case necks.

Totally different technologies and intended applications.

Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

If you are roll crimping you are just plumb wearing your elbow out to no good effect doing it in separate stages in my opinion. I defy anyone to get more accuracy that way. You just have to be careful setting it up initially. I use at least the first three cases with the bullet seated where I want it, then back out the seater and slowly apply crimp until you get it right. The beauty of having three or so cases is that if you screw it up or are not sure, you can try it on another case without a lot of fiddling about (guess how I found this out :) ). Once I have the crimp right, I replace the case which has the bullet seated and the perfect crimp in place, raise the ram and wind the seater in again until it touches the bullet. Then you are good to go. Theres enough steps in reloading pistol ammo without adding to it.

Taper crimping is different however, the two operations are mutually exclusive.

If you want a roll crimp, try using the crimp on the seating die, might just work.

[44man]

What do you use, 44man? Actually, I think there's a problem with the roll crimp and .45 Colt. It doesn't iron out the bell. Look at the above pic. So maybe the Lee die, or a TC die is best.
I use a roll crimp. If you crimp too hard you will bulge the brass below the crimp. That also weakens the case tension.
I flare the cases just enough to start the boolit. Then when you change boolits you might have to adjust the die for each. Some like Lee boolits seem to have forgotten a groove! Don't try to crimp hard in the little scratch they call a groove.

[Bucks Owin]

A "taper crimp" is meant to be used on cases like .45 ACP which headspaces on the rim of the case, use a roll crimp on that and you'll have feeding issues or worse.


You're half right. The .45 ACP requires a taper crimp alright, but it's because it headspaces on the case mouth NOT the rim. The .45 ACP has no rim, it's a rimless case. The .45 LC can use any kinda crimp you like as it headspaces on the rim.....Dennis

[Bucks Owin]

What do you use, 44man? Actually, I think there's a problem with the roll crimp and .45 Colt. It doesn't iron out the bell. Look at the above pic. So maybe the Lee die, or a TC die is best.

Maybe your cases need to be trimmed for length? Uniform crimps need uniform case length!.....FWIW, Dennis

[Tazman1602]

You're half right. The .45 ACP requires a taper crimp alright, but it's because it headspaces on the case mouth NOT the rim. The .45 ACP has no rim, it's a rimless case. The .45 LC can use any kinda crimp you like as it headspaces on the rim.....Dennis

I stand corrected Bucks, I should have said "case mouth" but was thinking the term "rim". I did intend to say it spaces on the front part of the brass bullet thingy that the rear end of the bullet goes into......<GRIN>

Art

[Dale53]

There is actually a very practical reason to use a separate bullet seating die and a separate crimp die. When you are seating the cast bullet in a combination die, the crimp starts before the bullet is seated. On some bullet designs, that can result (regardless of how careful you might be) in pushing a ring of lead ahead of the bullet crimp. This can lead to leading and a serious loss of accuracy. This is why Elmer Keith DEMANDED a long, sloping bullet crimp on his bullet designs (they only had two die sets when he designed those bullets). Elmer's design greatly helped that particular problem when using two and the the later three dies sets (both seated and crimped the bullets at the same time).

Too many otherwise good bullet designs do not have an adequate crimp groove to avoid damage if used in a combination die. Further, NONE of the auto pistol bullets have crimping grooves (even a taper crimp can damage a bullet by seating and crimping at the same time).

The four die sets totally solve the problem (if they are set up properly, of course). In a progressive press, this requires NO extra effort as it is handled automatically. If you are using a single stage press then it is an extra step.

Even the Lee Turret Press (the newer four stage presses) handle the fourth die quite well (they require a fourth stroke of the press but that is not much of a problem).

As you might guess from the above, I am a "four die type guy".

FWIW
Dale53

[Changeling]

From the Lee web site:


Carbide Factory Crimp explanation

While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.

The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need.

[Frank]

Bucks Owin said

Maybe your cases need to be trimmed for length? Uniform crimps need uniform case length!.....FWIW, Dennis
I used trimmed cases now and did it again. They look OK. Here's a pic of 3 crimps, left to right. Lee Factory Crimp, Hornady Taper Crimp, and Hornady seating die roll crimp. The boolit seating on the right one could have been deeper. The Lee crimp looks the same as the Hornady taper crimp. Maybe the Hornady has a little longer taper.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1633

[DevilDog83]

I've found the Lee dies to do a nice job for both auto and revo loads, I don't use the die on my 550, but have it set up as a separate step on a single stage, don't know why but it just seems to work that way for me

[Changeling]

I've found the Lee dies to do a nice job for both auto and revo loads, I don't use the die on my 550, but have it set up as a separate step on a single stage, don't know why but it just seems to work that way for me

I know what you mean. I like it as a separate process/step also.

Now if you would like to lend me that 550 for a year.... I can hear you now, LOL.

[Bucks Owin]

Bucks Owin said

I used trimmed cases now and did it again. They look OK. Here's a pic of 3 crimps, left to right. Lee Factory Crimp, Hornady Taper Crimp, and Hornady seating die roll crimp. The boolit seating on the right one could have been deeper. The Lee crimp looks the same as the Hornady taper crimp. Maybe the Hornady has a little longer taper.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1633 Don't know what to say about your crimping problem. FWIW, here's my drill. Even with new cases I like to trim a few thou' off the mouths just to make they're uniform length and the mouths are square. Light chamfer and as little flaring as possible for whatever bullet. Seat bullet so top of crimp groove and case mouth align. Crimp firmly but not so hard that the case swells behind crimp, loosening the case tension. I also like to make a dummy round for each bullet I use once I've settled on an OAL. Makes seating setup easy and uniform. No problems.....BTW, that's a good looking boolit. Big meplat! What is it?

[Frank]

Lee 452-300-RF

[Wireman134]

452-255-RF next to a C452-300-RF. Never had a problem with the roll crimp.:grin:

[Frank]

Here's how I measure the crimp whether it's good or not. This is the Hornady crimp.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=1634

[Three44s]

It all comes down to intended use with me.

If I have a round that's for a pretty serious end use ....... it gets doted over pretty seriously.

I firmly believe in having cases well regulated for length when I need very good firm and consistent crimps.

Consistent length is the foundation to good roll crimping. And good heavy loads need consistent and firm crimps.

My top crimps sometimes involve using the seating die to start the crimp and the (very good) Lee Factory Carbide crimp die to finish it.

The terrible truth is that one is sometimes even needing to pay very close attention to belling so as to be in a position to get good efficient crimps with lead boolits. By "two belling dies" .... I am referring to the supplied belling die PLUS an Lyman "M" die.

And in that vein, I SOMETIMES bell with two belling dies ............. not to get MASSIVE belling but to get just the right angle on the boolit so as to eliminate shaving or to (truthfully) minimize the overall bell and set up for easier crimping (and less brass wear).

YUP ...... a confession of an ANAL handloader.

(PS. ........ I am a confirmed Lee Classic Turret press guy.................)


Three 44s

[Frank]

Look at my 3 rounds and look at Wireman's. I rolled those today just for display. That's with no gas check. Look at those curves on those babes! [smilie=l: I pulled them right after, and they are still .453-.454 size. No shaving.

[Wireman134]

The paper don't lie...[smilie=w:

[44man]

My .475 dies came with a separate crimp die and I have Redding crimp dies for the .44 and .45. However, as boolit diameter gets larger, I have to quit using them or they all size the boolit and brass.
I use the seat die to crimp with larger boolits.
Here is what I mean, why size this nice RD boolit in a crimp die?

[44man]

The paper don't lie...[smilie=w:
I think you can better that if you try a Fed 150 primer! :bigsmyl2:
Or a WLP. The load is good.

[Bucks Owin]

I think you can better that if you try a Fed 150 primer! :bigsmyl2:
Or a WLP. The load is good. Yep, just might be right. I got a smaller SD/ES on the ol' Chrony with a WLP than a CCI-350 with some heavy W-296 and LilGun .44 loads. I'm not a big fan of CCI primers in handgun loads even though I've liked them fine in rifle loads for over 4 decades.....FWIW, Dennis

[azrednek]

I've been using the Redding Profile Crimp die for both 45 AR and Colt. It does a nice and neat job.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/crimp-2.gif

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/crimp-1.gif

[44man]

I've been using the Redding Profile Crimp die for both 45 AR and Colt. It does a nice and neat job.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/crimp-2.gif

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/crimp-1.gif
True and I love them, but don't try them with larger boolits that fit the gun better.

[Frank]

Changeling said
Now if you would like to lend me that 550 for a year.... I can hear you now, LOL.
So what crimp die did you choose, and what made you choose it?