Installing mauser military barrel

[GrizzLeeBear]

I have a nice 98 mauser action (no barrel) and a new 8mm stepped military barrel that I want to install on it. The barrel is one of the ones made in the 50's? and is brand new, not a take-off barrel. I plan on putting on a Lyman peep sight that I already have and making a no-nonsense iron sighted hunting rifle. I've done some google searches, but all the info. I find is on the difficulty with removing mauser barrels and reaming short chambered barrels.
My question is, since I do NOT have to remove the original barrel and just need to install this "long" chambered barrel, do I really need a barrel vise and action wrench to install it? I have seen a few discussions where you only need 50 - 75 ft. lb.s of torque on the new barrel, if so, couldn't I use a standard bench vise and some sort of strap wrench or something to install the barrel with that amount of torque?
I can screw the barrel on by hand so its snug on the inner torque ring and a FL sized case chambers easily and one fired in my Yugo 24/47 chambers with just a slight amount of resistance, not much, just enough that you can feel a tiny bit of "drag" on the last little bit bolt rotation. So it seems to me, all I have to do is install the barrel to that amount of torque and check it with a No-Go guage?

[Ben]

I've seen far too many barrels " walk out " of the action because they were not put in with the proper torque.

Without a barrel vise and an action wrench I don't see how you will be able to put the proper torque on things.

Someone else can offer their opinion.

Ben

[Cactus Farmer]

What Ben said........They need to be tight to shoot well too.

[StarMetal]

....and they should contact the inner collar and outside receiver at the same time and tighten up on both to be correct...the way Mauser designed.

Joe

[oldhickory]

I've rebarreled a few Mausers and agree whole heartedly with what these guys say. A barrel vice and action wrench aren't very expensive and won't mar your project like a regular bench vice WILL. You can buy them from Midway and get some rosin also, and a GO gauge at least. It's an easy project with the proper tools.

[Willbird]

....and they should contact the inner collar and outside receiver at the same time and tighten up on both to be correct...the way Mauser designed.

Joe

I have only taken out a half dozen mauser bbls, bit I have yet to see one that contacted at the outer receiver....when I true everything up and fit a new custom barrel I get them to bear in both places, but the original bbls I have taken out are just turned straight out in front of the receiver...

Bill

[StarMetal]

I have only taken out a half dozen mauser bbls, bit I have yet to see one that contacted at the outer receiver....when I true everything up and fit a new custom barrel I get them to bear in both places, but the original bbls I have taken out are just turned straight out in front of the receiver...

Bill

On the other hand I, so far, haven't seen any that didn't make contact on both areas. You're luckier as one contact should be easier to take off.

Joe

[Mk42gunner]

The strap wrench is a bad idea, in my experience. It will hold for a while, then give way because the Mauser action is not round.

I learned this the hard way trying to take the barrel off of a 1909 Argentine.

Keep your eyes open, a lot of people buy the tools, use them once and then sell them.


Robert

[GrizzLeeBear]

Been a while, but thanks for the input guys!

Well I'm going to go in a little different direction. I picked up a very nice "new" take-off Zastava sporter barrel in .270 on Gunbroker. I want to rust blue the action and I think the satin/matte finish on this barrel will match nicely. If I decide to install it myself I will get a barrel vise and action wrench.
Joe, I think this barrel is going to fit perfectly on both the inner collar and outer face. Measuring with the depth end of my caliper the inner to outer faces on the action are within less than .003 of the barrel face to end of threads, if not right on! I screwed the barrel in and just hand tightening it it looks like it contacts both surfaces perfectly. So it looks like I should be able to screw it on, torque it down to 75 ft. lb. or so, check the headspace and be good to go!

[bcp477]

I agree with some others here....at least partially. 50 ft-lbs is too loose. Around 75 ft-lbs, or a little more, will do just fine. Absolutely NO need for the so-called "crush fit" that some adhere to (crushing the threads with high torque to close the last 0.002" or so, so that the outer barrel shoulder will seat against the receiver face). THAT just damages the threads....and it isn't necessary, anyway. You ARE better off with proper tools....though it can be done otherwise (I've done re-barrels many times in the past, with a bench vise and a PROPERLY-designed fixture for the barrel, plus a home-made receiver wrench (again, PROPERLY designed). It is simpler to just buy the correct tools (as I found out myself) - a bit more costly, but simpler....and I'd recommend that.

As for both the barrel face and outer barrel shoulder NEEDING to make contact, in order to have an accurate barrel...... that is nonsense. As long as the threads on receiver and barrel are correct (so that the barrel screws in STRAIGHT), then the critical issue is the inner torque shoulder. The barrel face should ALWAYS contact the inner ring.....but it isn't necessary that the outer barrel shoulder contact the receiver. Looks nice, but it isn't absolutely necessary (there is no "extra support" or "vibration damping" value to it.....two myths that I have heard)..... which supposedly leads to better accuracy. I always strove to have the outer barrel shoulder to make contact, just because it would look better..... that's all. But, I know that it is of no technical value through experience.

[StarMetal]

I agree with some others here....at least partially. 50 ft-lbs is too loose. Around 75 ft-lbs, or a little more, will do just fine. Absolutely NO need for the so-called "crush fit" that some adhere to (crushing the threads with high torque to close the last 0.002" or so, so that the outer barrel shoulder will seat against the receiver face). THAT just damages the threads....and it isn't necessary, anyway. You ARE better off with proper tools....though it can be done otherwise (I've done re-barrels many times in the past, with a bench vise and a PROPERLY-designed fixture for the barrel, plus a home-made receiver wrench (again, PROPERLY designed). It is simpler to just buy the correct tools (as I found out myself) - a bit more costly, but simpler....and I'd recommend that.

As for both the barrel face and outer barrel shoulder NEEDING to make contact, in order to have an accurate barrel...... that is nonsense. As long as the threads on receiver and barrel are correct (so that the barrel screws in STRAIGHT), then the critical issue is the inner torque shoulder. The barrel face should ALWAYS contact the inner ring.....but it isn't necessary that the outer barrel shoulder contact the receiver. Looks nice, but it isn't absolutely necessary (there is no "extra support" or "vibration damping" value to it.....two myths that I have heard)..... which supposedly leads to better accuracy. I always strove to have the outer barrel shoulder to make contact, just because it would look better..... that's all. But, I know that it is of no technical value through experience.

I understand the crush fit a little different then you mentioned. I understand it as the barrel being cut with a different V angle then the receiver. One is 55 degrees and the other is 60 degrees. This gives a crush fit. The other thing is about the torque. I talked to Savage and then I talked to one of the most prominent Savage builders in the country, recommended by Savage, on how much do you torque the barrel nut. I came to find out that it was told that it's just snug and that's how the factory done them. They may at times have a thread locker on them. The Savage fellow said that if I was just putting a one time barrel on to just snug the nut. He said if I was going to swap barrels then to torque. He gave me a torque figure that's no ways near high as what's been suggest here on torquing Mauser barrels.

Joe

[felix]

BR barrels are not much more than "finger" tight, and every thread requires the same amount of non-zero torque. For example, it the gun requires 16 ounces of torque, each thread must supply one ounce making 16 threads. I don't know what the actual torque figures are, but indeed these guys use a specialized wrench. I suspect each BR vendor has different figures based on his ideas for type of barrel and action. ... felix

[Spector]

I am a little confused. I also have no practical experience in these matters. I've just read a little and may have misunderstood that.

I thought that I read from many sources that Savage rifles have a good reputation for ''out of the box'' accuracy. I thought that I also read that they are adjustable for head space by turning the barrel in or out of the receiver and torquing the barrel nut. That sounds to me like the barrel does not torgue down on any inner receiver ring, but only torques on the front of the receiver by the use of the barrel nut.

I've never seen the inside of a Savage receiver and only one Siamese Mauser receiver I no longer have.

If Savage rifles are accurate, yet do not torque on an inner receiver ring can someone explain to me why?

Also is there the same accuracy potential from a custom switch barrel Mauser.....all things being equal otherwise.

I'm not talking bench rifle accuracy here, but better than many out of the box rifles I see written up in gun magazines these days. My old Swede Mausers will outperform most of those I've read about. Or maybe it's just the writers don't have adequate time to develop truly accuracte loads for the rifles they test.

Anyone with thoughts on this........Mike

[StarMetal]

I am a little confused. I also have no practical experience in these matters. I've just read a little and may have misunderstood that.

I thought that I read from many sources that Savage rifles have a good reputation for ''out of the box'' accuracy. I thought that I also read that they are adjustable for head space by turning the barrel in or out of the receiver and torquing the barrel nut. That sounds to me like the barrel does not torgue down on any inner receiver ring, but only torques on the front of the receiver by the use of the barrel nut.

I've never seen the inside of a Savage receiver and only one Siamese Mauser receiver I no longer have.

If Savage rifles are accurate, yet do not torque on an inner receiver ring can someone explain to me why?

Also is there the same accuracy potential from a custom switch barrel Mauser.....all things being equal otherwise.

I'm not talking bench rifle accuracy here, but better than many out of the box rifles I see written up in gun magazines these days. My old Swede Mausers will outperform most of those I've read about. Or maybe it's just the writers don't have adequate time to develop truly accuracte loads for the rifles they test.

Anyone with thoughts on this........Mike

Savage is just a tubular receiver. It had no inner collar. My gunsmith friend and I believe Savages are inherently accurate because of the barrel nut system. We feel that that nut somehow has something to do with putting stress on the barrel shank differently then if the barrel had a shoulder without the nut system. We also believe it somehow changes the barrel harmonics or vibrations to the better. From what I've been told Savage barrels themselves are soft. That for the average hunter they'll last more then a lifetime, but if you're target shooter or high volume varmint shooter they'll lose their edge fast. Quality barrels of other manufacturers are equally as accurate on the Savage receiver so it's not just the barrel alone. Another similar system that shoots very well are the Dan Wessons. Here we have a barrel that screws easily into the receiver, then a shroud goes over it, finally a nut tightens all of it holding it together. We feel that in this system, again, the barrel nut stresses the barrel between the receiver and shroud somehow enhancing the accuracy. Again this probably plays on harmonics. Yes I know there are some Dan Wesson's that shoot terrible, but generally they are some of the most accurate revolvers.

Joe

[swheeler]

Small ring mausers torque up on the front of the reciever ring, as do 1917 and P14 Enfields, m70, 03 springfields and many, many more, and plenty of those are very accurate, I believe the inner torque surface of the 98 was put there as a strength feature. As far as I know original mauser barrels are threaded with 55* whitworth threads, same as recievers, but many after market barrels are simpley threaded with standard 60* v thread. As for the reason to Savage 110 design accuracy I personally think it is a function of the 2 piece bolt body, self centering/aligning feature.

[MtGun44]

Swheeler is definitely on to half of the 'Savage secret'. The bolt head can pivot easily to
let the lugs bear totally evenly and not forcing the rear of the bolt to flail around like
a rigid bolt system does when only one lug bears. The fact that each rifle has perfect
headspace due to the barrel nut system can't hurt.

Bill

[StarMetal]

The barrel nut definitely plays a major role. On a recent build, with a synthetic stock, I free floated the barrel and Devcon bedded the action. Normally I be a little ways up the barrel root in front of the receiver. This meant, on the Savage, that the barrel nut would be bedded. Wrong thing to do. It wouldn't shoot for anything. Then I merely relieved the barrel nut from the bedding and it was like night and day difference. It was really shooting then. I'm not sold on the loose bolt head. There are many conventional bolts that bear evenly and still don't shoot.

Joe

[swheeler]

The barrel nut definitely plays a major role. On a recent build, with a synthetic stock, I free floated the barrel and Devcon bedded the action. Normally I be a little ways up the barrel root in front of the receiver. This meant, on the Savage, that the barrel nut would be bedded. Wrong thing to do. It wouldn't shoot for anything. Then I merely relieved the barrel nut from the bedding and it was like night and day difference. It was really shooting then. I'm not sold on the loose bolt head. There are many conventional bolts that bear evenly and still don't shoot.

Joe

I would think that if a barrel nut was the "secret" to accuracy, all those record setting benchrest rifles would be wearing one. On the other hand there are some custom BR actions with beveled locking lugs so that they can center themselves on lockup.

[Mr Humble]

Just an FYI. Savage and the new Marlin XL/XC barrels are interchangable.
Here's my "270" XL wearing a Savage 22-250 barrel that had been condemned for a rough throat. It is now a 22-06 (wildcat) and will plug 5 55 gr Dogtowns into 3/4 moa at 3900 fps.
(Just a silly "I can do it with hand tools project")
All you need is a barrel vise, headspace gauge and the Savage/Marlin barrel nut wrench (Brownells).
Takes about 20 minutes the first time (if not rechambering). You can have a 270, 30-06, 35 whelen (XL) or a 22-250, 243, 260, 7mm08, 308 and 358 (XC) with only two stocked actions!

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN3039.jpg

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z231/leadloader/DSCN3037.jpg

Maybe even a 411 hawk with BIG cast boolits?

[357maximum]

Mr. Humble


Have you tried any heavy bullets in that critter?

[bcp477]

Well, this thread certainly went off on a tangent. The OP was asking about MAUSER re-barreling, not Savage. Different animal.....as the barrel attaching design is different....so NOT analogous. I don't know what torque is recommended for Savage barrel nuts...... but it hasn't got anything to do with Mausers, anyway.

The "crush fit" technique, about which I spoke, involved machining the length dimension of the (threaded) barrel shank about 0.002" too short to allow the barrel face to contact the inner receiver ring, when the outer barrel shoulder made contact with the receiver face. Then, the barrel was over-torqued, to force the barrel face to make contact (essentially, stretching the barrel shank). This is the technique employed by most of the arsenals which made and assembled military Mausers. I can't fathom the reason for it, other than some misplaced notion that it produced a more "homogeneous" assembly, or would guarantee that the barrel would never "back out" under vibration. It certainly prevented barrels from "backing out"...... as judged by the incredible difficulty in getting most original military Mauser barrels off. However, it has NO value that I can see, because after decades of experience with Mausers.....I've NEVER seen one back out, anyway. The thread pitch is only around 5 degrees, which makes it VERY unlikely that a barrel will unscrew itself, if torqued to a reasonable value. Firing and handling simply don't produce enough vibration in the assembly, to cause this.

Actually, 50 ft-lbs is fine.....but I don't recommend it, simply out of caution (you never know what actually number home gunsmiths will produce). Recommending 75 ft-lbs simply gives some assurance that at least 50 will be attained. But, I absolutely NEVER endorse the "crush fit" technique......it simply damages the threads.....and makes it far more difficult to remove the barrel later. And, as I said before, it does NOT provide any benefit. If one is worried about the barrel "backing out", for crying out loud, then simply apply a bit of NON-permanent loctite to the barrel threads.

As regards cutting the barrel threads to a different pitch than the receiver....then forcing them together......well, perhaps some do it. I've never heard of anyone competent doing that, though. I consider that monumentally STUPID, however.....asking for trouble.....and I'd personally strangle the gunsmith that advocated that, if I still could. A bloody good way to ruin a barrel and receiver...and that's all, if you ask me.

[StarMetal]

The Mauser Model 98 action has an inner shoulder called the "Primary Torque Shoulder." It is also called the "C Ring" and the "Inner Torque Shoulder." This is the surface that Mauser intended for barrels to be set against, but why? We know that Remington and most other modern manufacturers seat the barrel against the front of the receiver ring ("Secondary Torque Shoulder"). They don't even have an inner ring.

The answer is in the geometry. I took measurements on a barrel that I had sitting on the bench. It is an Adams & Bennet F34 .30-06 barrel, and I figure that it is typical of sporter dimensions. I also measured a Czech 98/22 receiver. Here are the numbers:
http://www.mausercentral.com/98MauserBblFitting.jpg
The actual contact area is 60% greater on the Primary Torque Shoulder. I actually cut the tenon about 0.002 inches long. That way when I draw up the action to the barrel, the Primary surfaces bottom hard (i.e., "crush fit"), and the barrel shoulder actually draws up to the feceiver face. That is not, however, necessary. It is really more cosmetic than functional.

Now the above is all about sporter barrels. Military barrels are another kettle of fish. I measured a take-off barrel from a Yugo M48 Mauser. The shank diameter is 1.113 inches and the thread diameter is 1.102 inches. Those numbers would yield a contact area on the front (our A1) of 0.0191 square inches. That would make A2 14.4 times larger than A1. Obviously, seating on the front of the receiver is not even an option for a military barrel. Small ring Mauser barrels have threads that are 0.980 inches in diamter. Throw those numbers into the calculations, and the surface available on the front ring is 0.2186 square inches -- a lot more reasonable surface to deal with. The small ring barrels ARE seated against the front ring.

For what it's worth..........

Joe

[swheeler]

"Small ring mausers torque up on the front of the reciever ring," from post number 15
BUT I am a bit mistaken, forgot small ring 98's and the LR, .980x.775 long shank Turk which torque on the inner ring.
As far as pre-fit barrels coming with 60*V threads that's the way its been as far back as I can remember(1978-79 ER SHAW) from most suppliers, probably just a ease of tooling thing. I do have a couple 55* lathe bits that I bought through Brownells(1993), but when I ground my own I chose 60* so I could fit it to my gage.
As for wandering off topic, IT HAPPENS!

[StarMetal]

I would think that if a barrel nut was the "secret" to accuracy, all those record setting benchrest rifles would be wearing one. On the other hand there are some custom BR actions with beveled locking lugs so that they can center themselves on lockup.

...and that's exactly not why AR15's and AR10's are so deadly accurate! Notice the barrel nut system in those.

Joe

[swheeler]

I know they can be very accurate, but it takes more than JUST the barrel nut. Heck just look at some of the groups shot by Mike in Co. Now I could be wrong, but don't think so, there are NO records held in National or International Benchrest Shooter Assoc by a "Black Rifle" in a sanctioned match.
There are plenty of mausers out there with the barrel nut system for setting headspace and switching barrels, SMLE's too, but have never heard any claims to amazing accuracy improvement. Now I think we are wandering a bit far from amount of torque required on a M98 barrel swap and tools needed, GB asked about.