45 LC loading versility.

[Changeling]

First off I don't have any molds/bullets yet.

With all the posts I forgot to ask an obvious question.

Bullet example 265 gr LBT type. Is it safe to assume that I could load this bullet from say 1000 to 1400 fps with accurate loads in all speed areas or do most cast bullets have a sweet spot relative to velocity?

[StarMetal]

First off I don't have any molds/bullets yet.

With all the posts I forgot to ask an obvious question.

Bullet example 265 gr LBT type. Is it safe to assume that I could load this bullet from say 1000 to 1400 fps with accurate loads in all speed areas or do most cast bullets have a sweet spot relative to velocity?

First I hope you have a stout gun for those velocities. Second I feel it's the particular gun involved that will have the sweet spot in conjunction with the load.

Joe

[Changeling]

First I hope you have a stout gun for those velocities. Second I feel it's the particular gun involved that will have the sweet spot in conjunction with the load.

Joe

Thanks for the reply Joe. Seems I left out some things. It's for the SS 45 Ruger I bought. The 1400 is probably a point I will never try to achieve and actually don't know if it is or not, safely.

What I was getting at is can I expect good accuracy at say 900 fps and higher velocities, or is it a function of the individual revolver and one doesn't know till he tries?

[canyon-ghost]

I think the 45 Colt has lots of versatility, parent case for the 454 Casull.

[vulture47]

Are you going to load with cast bullets or jacketed? With cast the top end valocity will depend on the hardness of the lead. With Jacketed slugs you can go about as high as the particular gun you are using will take. The Ruger is a strong revolver, but if you load lead slugs you will do better to stay at or below 1000 fps, unless you are using a real soft slug then you will need to stay down around 800 fps and you will just have to work up watching for leading in the barrel. If you go jacketed slugs then you can start at 900 fps and work on up until you find the best accuracy for the weight of the slug you are using. Not sure if there is a particular weight and style of slug the Ruger likes above others or not. I load using wheel weight metal and I load to around 800 fps or less just for a nice fun round, not trying to make a magnum out of my revolver, want a more realistic old time load.

[yondering]

What I was getting at is can I expect good accuracy at say 900 fps and higher velocities, or is it a function of the individual revolver and one doesn't know till he tries?

Yes to both questions. You'll need to be using different powders for different velocity levels; at the very least Unique for the 800-1100 range and H110/296 or LilGun for the 1100+ loads. You may find that each of those powders has a certain velocity and charge weight sweet spot for best accuracy.
You won't know till you get your gun and shoot it, and tune it some, then shoot some more, etc. Don't expect it to be laser accurate, either right out of the box, or after you mess with it.

[1874Sharps]

I agree with what other posters have said. You never really know where the sweet spot will be for your particular gun, but you will likely find that your Ruger will give you acceptable accuracy over a wide span of velocity, powders, etc. I assume the revolver in question is a Blackhawk and not a Vaquero (the Blackhawk is stronger than the Vaquero, although both are very tough guns). For myself, I do not load 45 Colt rounds any hotter than the SAAMI specs. That is because I have a number of different guns (some original and some replicas of BP level design) and would not want a hot load going into one such gun. I am concerned that someday after I am long gone a son or grandson may end up using a hot load in a weaker gun and have a mishap. Also, some days I am dumber than a road lizzard and could end up doing it to myself. There is a general rule (although not hard and fast, for sure) that reflects much wisdom: If you need magnum performance, use a magnum. Please understand I am not trying to condescendingly talk down to you but rather making a safety suggestion. A maximum SAAMI loaded 45 Colt is not on par with the high velocity you cite, but it is still a quite formidible load!

[fredj338]

I doubt you can safely push a 265grLFP to 1400fps in a Ruger, maybe a 7 1/2" would get you 1300fps. I agree accuracy will be what your rev. wants it to be. After opening the chamber throats 0.001", I get sub 2" groups @ 25yds w/ the RCBS 270grLSWC @ 850-1100fps. That is about all I want to go in a 4 5/8" bbl. SS 45colt.

[yondering]

but if you load lead slugs you will do better to stay at or below 1000 fps, unless you are using a real soft slug then you will need to stay down around 800 fps and you will just have to work up watching for leading in the barrel.

This isn't true at all. Go do some research.

Plenty of us here are pushing lead boolits much faster than that from both handguns and long guns.

Of course it depends on the gun and load, but the general rule is if your loading faster than ~1400 fps, you might need a gas check on your boolit. I think this also applies to lower velocity loads at higher pressures.

fredj338, 1400 fps for that boolit weight is hot, but probably not out of reach. Several members here claim 1300 fps with 330+ gr boolits in the 45 colt. A little over 1200 fps is the fastest I've been able to push the heavyweights in my 5" barrel; haven't tried hotrodding the lighter boolits cause it makes them shoot too low.

[ktw]

Bullet example 265 gr LBT type. Is it safe to assume that I could load this bullet from say 1000 to 1400 fps with accurate loads in all speed areas or do most cast bullets have a sweet spot relative to velocity?

I've been shooting an LBT 265 LFNgc in a 45 Colt carbine. It shoots well for me in the 1400-1500 fps range.

I haven't tried that bullet in a revolver. It was a loaner mold and I have a limited supply. I prefer to stay in the 800-1000 fps range with the revolver and don't need the added expense of a gas check design for that. Lyman 454190 is a plain based design that works for me as a revolver bullet.

-ktw

[MtGun44]

No need for a gas check above 1000 fps. I shoot .357 mag at 1400 plus with
plain base and zero leading with WWt metal not heat treated, and get about 3"
or a tad larger as a start at 50 yds. More tweaking and more care in shooting should
get that down a bit.
.44 mag and .45 LC at 1200 fps with plain base in several different boolit designs with
good lube and good fit, again with AC WWts and zero leading. Personally, I see no
need whatsoever for gas checks in pistol loads with good boolit design and good
lube (50/50 is fine).

This 1000 fps "barrier" is totally mythical with a decently smooth barrel and good
cast boolits and proper technique. It seems like the old rules where you "had to have"
a gas check for magnum calibers with cast boolits were based on near pure lead
and probably a poor fit and maybe even a bad lube.

Bill

[geargnasher]

MtGun, based upon my experiences I agree fully.

Changeling: Something no one has mentioned about loading the .45 Colt hot is the really generous chambers most firearm manufacturers give that caliber. This tends to create a lot of stress on the already thin case head and shortens brass life considerably. I've loaded in the 1325 fps area for a BH with 454190/wd/ww with good results but case heads started popping off after 3-4 reloads at that power level. Draw your own conclusions as to the safety of blown case heads. I'm getting 10-12 reloads with the same boolit at ~925 fps in "Standard power" guns.

I'm wondering if it would work to use .454 Casull brass with it's stouter case head and walls trimmed for the .45 Colt, and then hone a steel sizing die out to fit the chamber at the case head but still size the neck enough for proper boolit tension. After "fire forming" to snug up the brass the bottom half of the case would get very little sizing and hopefully last a good bit longer and perform even better as the round would center in the chambers.

I agree with the statement "if you want magnum performance buy a magnum caliber". If you want insane handgun performance go with a .460 Ruger or .454, they are built for it. You can load the .45 Colt pretty well in a strong revolver (NOT New Vaquero small-frame) and while it can get pretty close to .44 Magnum lb/ft numbers it isn't even in the same ballpark as a .454.

Oh, and for part two, there can be a "sweet spot" for every gun/boolit/lube/bhn/velocity/ad infinitum and it is a combination of factors. Each boolit design has different requirements for stable flight, but how that stabilization is best achieved depends upon a zillion factors, not the least of which is the launch platform. I say "can be" not "is" as I have some boolits that in some guns do not appear to have any ideal velocity.

Gear

[Bullshop Junior]

Joe,
I shoot a 340gr cast HP PB out of my Ruger 45 Colt at 1300 FPS with good accuracy, and no pressure problems.
If I can do that I don't see why someone could not approach 1400 FPS in a Ruger with a 265gr WITH CAUTION!

[felix]

Gear, 454 brass that I have received for playing with was too hard for the 45 colt Winnie, which has a cave for a chamber. So, no, the brass is worse. The spec 454 chamber is smaller than that for the 45 Colt. Without ever measuring, I wonder if the ACP chamber is sufficient for the Colt chamber? Might play around sometime and see if this is true in practice. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Joe,
I shoot a 340gr cast HP PB out of my Ruger 45 Colt at 1300 FPS with good accuracy, and no pressure problems.
If I can do that I don't see why someone could not approach 1400 FPS in a Ruger WITH CAUTION!

Junior,

I posted that because of the Colts out there and other weaker 45 Colts. I know what the Ruger will do I've owned one for 38 years.

Joe

[yondering]

Changeling: Something no one has mentioned about loading the .45 Colt hot is the really generous chambers most firearm manufacturers give that caliber. This tends to create a lot of stress on the already thin case head and shortens brass life considerably. I've loaded in the 1325 fps area for a BH with 454190/wd/ww with good results but case heads started popping off after 3-4 reloads at that power level.

Gear, for those hotter loads, try neck sizing your brass, instead of full length sizing each time. I neck size all my 45 colt ammo, but after 3-5 loadings I have to run them through a full length sizer again. (By neck sizing, I mean just back the die off to size the cases down just past the boolit base.) Your case head separations are not because of weak brass (454 brass won't help you here), but because of the brass work hardening during sizing.

You are right about the generous chamber sizes; the other side of that is the overly tight sizing dies. The 45 Colt is not actually a straight wall case, but when treated as such, and sized full length, the case will obviously be sized more than necessary towards the base.

[StarMetal]

Gear, 454 brass that I have received for playing with was too hard for the 45 colt Winnie, which has a cave for a chamber. So, no, the brass is worse. The spec 454 chamber is smaller than that for the 45 Colt. Without ever measuring, I wonder if the ACP chamber is sufficient for the Colt chamber? Might play around sometime and see if this is true in practice. ... felix

45 Colt case spec is .480, 454 case spec is .479, and 45 acp case spec is .476. Now that is for the case, not the chamber. I would imagine with the pressure the 454 runs that they tightened up that chamber dimension. The 45 Win mag case spec is same as the 45 acp at .476. I once thought of getting another 45 acp cylinder for my Ruger and have it reamed out for the 45 Win Mag.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Gear, for those hotter loads, try neck sizing your brass, instead of full length sizing each time. I neck size all my 45 colt ammo, but after 3-5 loadings I have to run them through a full length sizer again. (By neck sizing, I mean just back the die off to size the cases down just past the boolit base.) Your case head separations are not because of weak brass (454 brass won't help you here), but because of the brass work hardening during sizing.

You are right about the generous chamber sizes; the other side of that is the overly tight sizing dies. The 45 Colt is not actually a straight wall case, but when treated as such, and sized full length, the case will obviously be sized more than necessary towards the base.


The case specs show the case .480 right in front of the rim and .480 at the mouth, I'd say that's a straight walled case.

Joe

[yondering]

The case specs show the case .480 right in front of the rim and .480 at the mouth, I'd say that's a straight walled case.

Joe

My bad, I must have been thinking of something else. Still, try measuring fired brass from most any 45 Colt factory chamber. Most of them are tapered.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

My 4" Colt Anaconda 45LC will shoot the 320gr LBT's over 1300fps, and the empties just tap out. Above that it gets dicey, but that is recoil talking; not pressure limited.

Rich

[Dale53]

Changeling;
You might want to look here - lots of PRESSURE TESTED heavy load data:

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Typically, you can load a 260 gr Keith or LBT WFN or WLN from 650 fps - 1200/1300 fps within safe limits for the .45 Colt Blackhawk using John Linebaughs pressure tested data.

My self, I'll be staying within 25,000 psi in my Ruger Bisley SS .45 Colt/.45 ACP convertible.

Factory load levels with the Lyman 452664 or NOE's Lyman 454424 Clone will receive most of my attention. That level makes a really good general load level and is pleasant to shoot.

FWIW
Dale53

[bigboredad]

changeling you don't state how long your new barrel is or how much experience you have shooting a big bore handgun. You have purchased a great gun before loading there are some things that must be done to achieve full potential from your ruger. first you will want to slug your barrel and cylinder throats chances are good that the throats will be too tight for cast bullets you will want .4525 or .453. If they are too tight have know fear cylindersmith.com can fix you up for under 50 bucks. Once you know what how fat you need your bullets to be the you will have know problems with leading and chances are yo will say uncle before the gun does. I shoot the lee 340fps sized to .454 out of a 7.5 and 5.5 inch blackhawk at well above 1000 fps with no leading and it is amazingly accurate and I can down load it to around 1000 with unique and or universal for very comfortable loads again no leading and great accuracy. Good luck and you'll enjoy the caliber gun combo you have

[Boomer Mikey]

High energy loads in the Ruger 45 Colt revolvers are possible within reasonably safe Ruger Only loads; however, these power levels won't be enjoyable for most shooters and I agree if you need a steady diet of very high energy loads that a 44 magnum, 454, 475, 480, or 500 would be a better choice.

The beauty of the Ruger 45 Colt revolver is the ability to "load it for bear" for those few trips into bear country with comfortable standard duty loads for regular use.

For dangerous game applications I prefer to purchase Buffalo Bore ammo:

Heavy .45 Colt

Buffalo Bore offers .45 Colt loads suitable for hunting big game where deep penetration is required. All of Buffalo Bore's .45 Colt loads are advertised as "Heavy .45 Colt" and are for use only in modern heavy duty .45 Colt sixguns. There are three standard offerings. For maximum penetration, a hard cast 325 grain LBT-LFN at 1,325 fps; for penetration combined with expansion, a 300 grain Speer PSP (Plated Soft Point) at 1,300 fps; and for smaller critters where expansion is more important than deep penetration, Buffalo Bore offers a 260 grain jacketed hollow point at 1,450 fps. The fourth offering from Buffalo Bore was designed with the mid-framed Freedom Arms Model 97 .45 Colt in mind, and is a 300 grain Speer PSP at 1,200 fps.

This article by John Taffin covers this subject well:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_166_27/ai_109265001/

Boomer :Fire:

[Changeling]

Thanks to all for your input and expertise on the 45LC. There has been some really good input from you guys that understand the 45 Colt. I'll take all this information to heart and try hard not to blow my fool head off when there is actually no need.

[w30wcf]

Back in the days when I was shooting my .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawks (2) a lot, one of the loads I used was the Lyman 454424 which weighed 263 grs. in w.w. + 2% tin alloy in combination with W296 powder. Average velocity ran a shade over 1,400 f.p.s. and the cases practically fell from their chambers [smilie=w:

Accuracy was pretty good as well with 50 yards groups running in the 2"-3" range if I did my part. Of course that was when I was able to see the open sights fairly well. Now those days are a distant memory.......

w30wcf

[Lee S. Forsberg]

First off I don't have any molds/bullets yet.

With all the posts I forgot to ask an obvious question.

Bullet example 265 gr LBT type. Is it safe to assume that I could load this bullet from say 1000 to 1400 fps with accurate loads in all speed areas or do most cast bullets have a sweet spot relative to velocity?

Have you measured the chamber throats? Sizing bullets that fit is important to accuracy. Even hard bullets will lead and not be accurate if not sized correctly.

[geargnasher]

Felix, Joe, et al... Thanks for the input. I DO only "neck" size now, makes decapping a pain but extends case life especially if I anneal the "necks". Once the cases are "fire formed" to fit the chambers they work much better than full-length sizing. They kinda look like .44-40 scaled up a few percent, especially with the annealing marks emphasizing the "shoulder" just below the boolit base.

I was speculating the thicker case walls of the .454 would be less likely to cause head separation at higher pressures because there would be more metal in the walls to stretch and more support/less area in the head for the wall metal to migrate to. Also, there is less surface area in the case head for the pressure to act upon. Pascal's law dictates the pressure will be the same everywhere in the system but the surface area keeps the force down, same as why 30k psi doesn't blow out wimpy Large Pistol primers like chinese balloons.

I'm through hot-rodding the .45 Colt for a while, those experiences were with a friend's gun, he wanted a "bear hammer" for Colorado and didn't have or want a .44 Magnum. The hot loads performed well during testing and we used once-fired (in his chambers) for the real carry load. My only regret was we didn't have a wfn over 300 grains to play with at the time.

Gear

[bearcove]

I think you guys are missing one point. Someone comes on the forum with little experience and asks about hot rodding 45 Colt. If he doesn't know, that screams to me he should follow the manuals closely.

I do this with any new project and I've been doing this for a long time. I started when the 357 Herrett was the hot thing. You are giving out HOT load data to people who may not know a safe way to get there.

And yes I think rugers are strong. But they fail too.

[alamogunr]

Also, there is less surface area in the case head for the pressure to act upon. Pascal's law dictates the pressure will be the same everywhere in the system but the surface area keeps the force down, same as why 30k psi doesn't blow out wimpy Large Pistol primers like chinese balloons
Gear

Not sure I understand this statement. Every spec I have says that head size is the same for both .45 Colt and .454 Casull. While there are very small variations in dimensions the only appreciable difference is case length. I have not sectioned either case to see what differences in cross sectional thickness exist. I don't load .45 Colt or .454 to max levels, so most of this is not a concern to me. There have been some threads here in which the use of .460 S&W cases shortened to .454 length is advocated to enable the use of large pistol primers. I would agree that loads should be kept below max if this is done. If max loads are wanted, I think that using .454 Casull brass should be standard practice. This is my opinion only and not backed up by extensive experience. If I'm off base here, please correct me.

John
W.TN

[StarMetal]

Not sure I understand this statement. Every spec I have says that head size is the same for both .45 Colt and .454 Casull. While there are very small variations in dimensions the only appreciable difference is case length. I have not sectioned either case to see what differences in cross sectional thickness exist. I don't load .45 Colt or .454 to max levels, so most of this is not a concern to me. There have been some threads here in which the use of .460 S&W cases shortened to .454 length is advocated to enable the use of large pistol primers. I would agree that loads should be kept below max if this is done. If max loads are wanted, I think that using .454 Casull brass should be standard practice. This is my opinion only and not backed up by extensive experience. If I'm off base here, please correct me.

John
W.TN

John,

Bolt thrust, back thrust, etc., is measured from and depends on the total square area of the web inside the case. Many think the larger the outside head of the case the more thrust. Not so. The powder pressure is pushing on that web inside the case. Some cases have greatly exaggerated rebated rims, one is the 50 Beowulf for the AR15. That body is over .500 in diamter, but yet the rim is the same as the 7.62x39....and further more the thrust is much more then if the case body was a 7.62x39 because the internal area is much larger.

Joe

[Ben]

Just my opinion but..............

If you want to shoot 45 Long Colt velocities, buy a 45 Long Colt.

If you're wanting to shoot 44 Mag. velocities, buy a 44 Mag.

Ben

[bearcove]

Just my opinion but..............

If you want to shoot 45 Long Colt velocities, buy a 45 Long Colt.

If you're wanting to shoot 44 Mag. velocities, but a 44 Mag.

Ben

Or a 454

[alamogunr]

John,

Bolt thrust, back thrust, etc., is measured from and depends on the total square area of the web inside the case. Many think the larger the outside head of the case the more thrust. Not so. The powder pressure is pushing on that web inside the case. Some cases have greatly exaggerated rebated rims, one is the 50 Beowulf for the AR15. That body is over .500 in diamter, but yet the rim is the same as the 7.62x39....and further more the thrust is much more then if the case body was a 7.62x39 because the internal area is much larger.

Joe

Thanks for that info. I may try my hand at sectioning a .45 Colt and a .454 Casull case just to see the differences. I've seen pictures here of sectioned cases. What is the best way to do this and accomplish the desired end result?

John
W.TN

[StarMetal]

Just my opinion but..............

If you want to shoot 45 Long Colt velocities, buy a 45 Long Colt.

If you're wanting to shoot 44 Mag. velocities, buy a 44 Mag.

Ben


Just my opinion...if you want to shoot 45 Colt velocities and 44 mag velocities, but a 454 or 460 S&W.

Joe

[geargnasher]

Thanks for that info. I may try my hand at sectioning a .45 Colt and a .454 Casull case just to see the differences. I've seen pictures here of sectioned cases. What is the best way to do this and accomplish the desired end result?

John
W.TN

Hack saw. Some use a dremel and cut-off wheel.

When you cut 'em open you'll see why I want to try the .454 brass one day.

Gear

Ps thanks Joe for further clarifying the explanation for my reasoning. INSIDE dimensions, where the pressure is, of course.

[StarMetal]

Depending on how you section one you may get a flanged or rough edge. Make sure you trim the edge down even with the metal thickness so you get an accurate comparison.

Joe

[alamogunr]

Thanks. I'll give it a try next week after everybody leaves. Too much family around now. I can't just disappear to the shop.

John
W.TN