EXCESS Sizing

[Wayne S]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ? OR has experence shown that sizing a .314 bullet down to .310 didn't effect how accurate the bullet was ??

[sturf]

I have heard or read that .005 is as much as you want to size. God Bless.

[StarMetal]

Myself and others on the board have found great success sizing down even further then you mentioned. Most important things are one make sure the lube grooves have lube in them first as the lube prevents the grooves from being squeezed in. The metal has to go somewhere when you size a bullet and normally they grow longer so lube in the grooves is important. If it's a major size down I would do it in stages if at possible. It's important that the bullet is sized very well centered.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

When the planets and stars are in perfect alignment and/or hearts are pure, our bullets fall from the mold at the correct size and need no sizing. This is a truly wonderful thing. But most time, size we must.

There are myths about bullet sizing and what it does to accuracy. I hold the opinion that it is how you size (method) that counts and not how much you size.

In a traditional machine where the bullets goes in base first by pressure on the nose, a bullet can be mashed pretty good by the presure on the nose. The more sizing required, the more pressure required.

Now, if a bullet is sized by pushing it through the die with a full caliber rod on the base, things are very different. Sizing is much less destructive this way.

Bullets can be sized WAY down, if it is done in stages and by a nose first push through die.

I once took two different Lyman 311291 molds and tested them in my Browning SS rifle in 30-30. The first mold threw bullets .301X.310 and I crimped on the gas check in a .311 push through die. The second mold threw the same design bullet .303X.315. I sized this bullet down on both the body and nose as the first mold (.301X.310) and fired four five shot groups with each bullet at 100 yards. Not a true scientific test but enough for me to get the idea.

When I did the final measuring it ended up with no significant difference between the two bullets. Since that day, I have not worried about how much I size, just how I size.

BTW..both bullets produced sub (slightly) MOA groups. That heavy barel Browning Traditional Hunter in 30-30 is one shooting Jessie.

[Wayne S]

Chargar,
I too have read about drastic reduction .454 to .430 and .285 to .277 [7 MM to 270 W. by useing the nose first method, BUT I lost all my reference material in hurrican Ivan.
So , just to get it correct,
1. get a flat bottom top punch to fit in my sizer
2. get a short .309-.310" rod to push the bullet out the bottom of the H&I die
3. Remove the pin inside the H&I die to allow anall the way through the H&I die
4. size nose first all the way through the H&I die
5. Replace knock out pin back in .310 H&I die, lube and seat GC as normal

Anything else ??
OR as Starmetal suggests
Fill the lube groove by sizing and lubing and seating GC in a .314 H&I die, THEN
RE-SIZE the bullets in a .310 die.

OR try one pass through a .312 die

OR hope NOE will offer his .314-129 gn design [FN style for low FPS shooting] in .3105-.311
GOOD THING I'M RETIRED[smilie=b:

[Wayne S]

Chargar,
I too have read about drastic reduction .454 to .430 and .285 to .277 [7 MM to 270 W. by useing the nose first method, BUT I lost all my reference material in hurrican Ivan.
So , just to get it correct,
1. get a flat bottom top punch to fit in my sizer
2. get a short .309-.310" rod to push the bullet out the bottom of the H&I die
3. Remove the pin inside the H&I die to allow anall the way through the H&I die
4. size nose first all the way through the H&I die
5. Replace knock out pin back in .310 H&I die, lube and seat GC as normal

Anything else ??
OR as Starmetal suggests
Fill the lube groove by sizing and lubing and seating GC in a .314 H&I die, THEN
RE-SIZE the bullets in a .310 die.

OR try one pass through a .312 die

OR hope NOE will offer his .314-129 gn design [FN style for low FPS shooting] in .3105-.311
GOOD THING I'M RETARDED :?: I MEAN RETIRED[smilie=b:

[StarMetal]

I've sized down RCBS's 124 gr 9mm bullets and 357 SWC to 30 caliber for my M1 carbine and they shoot just as well as the right bullets for that caliber.

If you're using a Lyman/RCBS type sizer it's important that the mouth of the size die is nicely radiused. As mentioned go in steps. The only bullets that I've actually had problems with on these type of luber/sizers are the long heavy 22 caliber ones. I'm just not getting all the bad things that are said about them. One thing that makes a difference is that if your sizer and lube is a little cold it takes lot's more force to push a bullet into the die. Warmer makes it easier.

Joe

[Calamity Jake]

Chargar,
I too have read about drastic reduction .454 to .430 and .285 to .277 [7 MM to 270 W. by useing the nose first method, BUT I lost all my reference material in hurrican Ivan.
So , just to get it correct,
1. get a flat bottom top punch to fit in my sizer
2. get a short .309-.310" rod to push the bullet out the bottom of the H&I die
3. Remove the pin inside the H&I die to allow anall the way through the H&I die
4. size nose first all the way through the H&I die
5. Replace knock out pin back in .310 H&I die, lube and seat GC as normal

You want to seat/size the check at the same time


Anything else ??
OR as Starmetal suggests
Fill the lube groove by sizing and lubing and seating GC in a .314 H&I die, THEN

Your only changing the size .004, that is .002 per side, doesn't take much pressure to do that.
Use your .310 as a pushthru for check seating/sizing then reinstall the I pin for lubing.

RE-SIZE the bullets in a .310 die.

OR try one pass through a .312 die

OR hope NOE will offer his .314-129 gn design [FN style for low FPS shooting] in .3105-.311
GOOD THING I'M RETIRED[smilie=b:

Have a good day

[Leftoverdj]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ? OR has experence shown that sizing a .314 bullet down to .310 didn't effect how accurate the bullet was ??

Wayne, conventional wisdom and my experience say you should be able to do that in one step with no loss of accuracy in normal rifles. A finely tuned benchrest rifle might show a difference, but few of us are shooting those.

[Char-Gar]

Wayne... The traditional lube/size machine like Lyman, RCBS and SAECO are best used to lube bullets already sized or about to be sized, using a die .001 over the size of the raw or sized bullet. The idea being you just want to lube the bullet and not size it in that machine.

The best way is to use a size die that mounts in the top of your loading press like the Lee or custom made dies by Buckshot. Lee will make one in a custom size for a reasonable charge over standard, and the work of Buckshot is outstanding and very reasonable in price

These dies come with the proper push through rod that mounts in the shell holder of your press.

While not popular much these days, there were some Co-Ax sizing dies to do nose first sizing in the traditional machine. These dies required a deeper funnel at the mouth to align the bullet, a flat punch to push it down and the bottom ejector pin had to be turned to fit the nose of the bullet. Hanned Line made and sold such things before they went belly up a couple of years back. I don't know who if anybody makes them now.

There are also some custom made gizmos that fit in the top of your loading press that hold your Lyman or RCBS dies for nose first push through sizing. You do have to remove the ejector pin. I have one it enables me to use the large collection of sizing dies I already own. I know of no commercial source, but a number of us with lathes have made them for our own use.

When you size way down it is a good idea to lube the bullet first in an oversize die to keep the lube grooves from closing. As stated before this is best done in stages perhaps .010 at a time, but others can give you better information on this than I can.

I understand this method converts the lube and size operation from one to two steps, but it is worth it when precision rifles shooting is involved. For hangun, I just lube and size in the Lyman 450 and am done with it.

The Star sizer is the nee plus ultra as it sizes nose first on everything. They are pricy, but those that have them won't go back.

[montana_charlie]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ?
Speaking directly to the question as asked...

Many (most?) of us believe that the less modification a bullet sees, between falling out of the mould and exiting the muzzle, the better. For that reason, large changes to a bullet's original diameter are probably not really desirable...unless you are making adjustments for a 'special case' where getting a different mould isn't the path you want to follow.

I never get into that situation, so I have little notion of how much is too much when it comes to sizing one down. Therefore, my opinion (and it's only an opinion) is based on this...

When Lyman applies a number like 457132 to a bullet design, we know it is intended for a .45 caliber rifle. We also know that most .45 caliber rifles have groove diameters up in the .458 - .459 range...and are not surprised if the bullet drops at .460".

As I understand it, Lyman chooses '457' for the first three numbers in that designation to tell the caster that the mould produces a bullet which can be sized down to that diameter (.457") without serious damage to the overall conformation of the bullet.

Based on that understanding, I would consider three thousandths to be about the most I would ever (willingly) size down a .45 caliber bullet. (I might even consider that to be too much for a very small caliber bullet.)

If an application required a significantly smaller diameter, I would look for an appropriate mould.

CM

[StarMetal]

Lot of myths here. The one fellow I see right is Leftoverdj...he has it right.

Chargar,

Not to start an argument with you, lord knows I get into enough of those, but (and again not to name any calibers) I've shot all those small or in many cased ragged hole groups, also some at high velocity, with bullets sized from a Lyman 450. So I'll probably get "well you have an exceptional Lyman or are lucky". I don't think so, I think it's a well perpetuated myth that the push through sizers are the BEST.

Although I'm on his ignore list, montana charlie couldn't be further from the truth. Come on guys..if you size more then .003 of inch you ruined the bullet??????? I don't think so.

But you know what...they are you bullets and if you want to follow the myths and fork out more money for moulds that you don't have to size much for...go ahead. I'm enjoying my shooting just sizing along.

Again like Leftoverdj said, unless we are shooting sophisticated target rifles you won't notice any difference....that is unless you actually ruined your bullets.

Joe

[fredj338]

Lot of myths here. The one fellow I see right is Leftoverdj...he has it right.

Although I'm on his ignore list, montana charlie couldn't be further from the truth. Come on guys..if you size more then .003 of inch you ruined the bullet??????? I don't think so.

Joe
I have to agree. I have even sized jacketed bullets down 0.006" w/ very good accuracy. If more than 0.003", I like to size in steps, nose first in a Star or Lee setup.

[StarMetal]

I have to agree. I have even sized jacketed bullets down 0.006" w/ very good accuracy. If more than 0.003", I like to size in steps, nose first in a Star or Lee setup.


Fred,

I've sized jacketed down too. The one thing you have to watch for on jacketed, depending on how they are constructed, is jacket/core separation.

You are correct in sizing in steps if the size needed is much smaller.

I want to say one more thing about sizing. I'll be referring to the sizers that push the bullet into a sizing die...such as Lyman and RCBS. I see them sort of like a swagger. We know swagged bullets are very accurate. In a sense sizing swages them and we know the metal gets displaced...so maybe if there are very small voids, they made get "ironed" out by the metal displacement. I believe it was the old sizer dies that didn't have the gentle relief area at the mouth and shaved bullets that started this bad myth.

Joe

[mpmarty]

My best accuracy to date is with boolits that come out of the mold at .309 and I seat checks by hand (tapping base on bench top) then push them through a .309 sizer to crimp on the checks. These boolits are tumbled in LLA, checked, crimped and then tumbled a second time. Dried overnight and shaken not stirred in motor mica to give them a nice clean surface dusting. These are fired in a Savage .308 pillar bedded 26" custom and shot over a bench rest with a 24X scope. If you don't have an accurate rifle to shoot your loads in why bother worrying about sizing, trimming, weighing or anything else?

[KCSO]

Thanks to Buckshot I found out that there is a LOT of sizing you can do before you get to excess. I have sized a 326 bullet to 317 in steps with push through dies for a stubborn 303 and have gotten excellent results. I lube apply a gas check and size to 324, then to 320, then to 317. They get longer but they shoot as good as can be.

[Char-Gar]

Joe.. Sure you would start an agrument with me or anybody else, for tis your nature. I like you because you are consistant. You can be depended on to be contary, but the world needs all kinds of folks including the contrary ones.

As to the drastic sizing, I think I mentioned that others would come along with better input. I have not done much of it, but when I did ,I did it in stages as other recommended. Maybe it is a myth and not necessary, but I don't really care. It worked for me and I didn't try doing it all in one fell swoop to see if there was any difference.

I don't read the posts of others unless there is something directed to me. I just say my piece and go my way. I get pretty tired of all of this nonsense. I don't feel it is my duty and obligation to disagree with somebody every time I can find an opportunity.

You on the other hand...well take care Joe and keep em in the X-ring.

[StarMetal]

Joe.. Sure you would start an agrument with me or anybody else, for tis your nature. I like you because you are consistant. You can be depended on to be contary, but the world needs all kinds of folks including the contrary ones.

As to the drastic sizing, I think I mentioned that others would come along with better input. I have not done much of it, but when I did ,I did it in stages as other recommended. Maybe it is a myth and not necessary, but I don't really care. It worked for me and I didn't try doing it all in one fell swoop to see if there was any difference.

I don't read the posts of others unless there is something directed to me. I just say my piece and go my way. I get pretty tired of all of this nonsense. I don't feel it is my duty and obligation to disagree with somebody every time I can find an opportunity.

You on the other hand...well take care Joe and keep em in the X-ring.

Thanks Chargar,

It would be interesting to sit down with an exceptional target rifle and see how much a difference there is between the two sizing methods.

To tell you the truth Chargar there was a time when I was younger that I loved reloading almost as much as the shooting. Not anymore. I use to pan lube and went to the Lyman luber/sizer. Man what a day and night difference. So much faster. Anything that makes the reloading operation faster and easier is the way I "like" to go, unless it gives bad results.

Take care.

Joe

[Bullshop]

About the most radical sizing I do on a regular basis is from a mold that drops at .515" and I size down to .504". That's what 11 thousandths?
I know the accuracy of these boolits is excellent because some of the customers have sent pics of their targets.
Like has been said I size in steps not over .004" at a time with the lube grooves filled and sizing nose first.
BIC/BS

[243winxb]

What would you consider excess sizing on a 30 cal. bullet ? OR has experence shown that sizing a .314 bullet down to .310 didn't effect how accurate the bullet was ?? From Lyman's FAQ
Q: What is the maximum amount a cast bullet can be sized?
A: We do not recommend sizing down more than .002" to .003" as this will cause severe deformity to the bullet, causing decreased accuracy.

Personaly, i have sized down .004" in 44mag. using a Lyman 450, no problems.

[Pat I.]

I agree with Charger 100%. Use a Lee sizer and you won't have any trouble sizing down .004 or more. If you want a .310 Lee sizer, which they don't make for obvious reasons, coat some bullets with 320 silicon carbide compound and run them through until it's what you want. They open up pretty fast.

[cbrick]

I agree with Joe, it was the old sizer dies that weren't tapered, some actually had a step inside that shaved the boolit that gave sizing a bad name. Old wives tales die very slowly.

I have SAECO #305, a 31 caliber that drops it's boolits at just a tick under .314". My 30-30 groove diameter is barely under .310" so I size them @ .312" (they come out @ .3117"). No biggie there but to use this boolit in my 308 with a groove diameter just under .308" I size @ .310", not quite .004" and it works very well. I use the Star and lube while sizing but I keep a little Hornady case lube on my fingers, just handling the boolits to put them in the die adds a bit of lube to them and they slip right through without any damage to the lube grooves.

As was said in this thread, it's not if you size or even so much how much you size but how you size. Nose first with a flat punch at nearly boolit base diameter and a little lube on the boolit puts far less pressure on the boolit. With the push through sizers you will end up with a more concentric boolit. I proved this with a machine shop comparator with 7mm boolits sized in a SAECO, an RCBS and a Star, the difference in concentricity was eye opening.

Rick

[Wayne S]

I agree with Charger 100%. Use a Lee sizer and you won't have any trouble sizing down .004 or more. If you want a .310 Lee sizer, which they don't make for obvious reasons, coat some bullets with 320 silicon carbide compound and run them through until it's what you want. They open up pretty fast.

ALL,
THANK YOU for ALL the INFO, PAT, is the 320 silcon carbide compound something like "fine" valve polishing compound ??

[Recluse]

Chargar,
I too have read about drastic reduction .454 to .430 and .285 to .277 [7 MM to 270 W. by useing the nose first method, BUT I lost all my reference material in hurrican Ivan.
So , just to get it correct,
1. get a flat bottom top punch to fit in my sizer
2. get a short .309-.310" rod to push the bullet out the bottom of the H&I die
3. Remove the pin inside the H&I die to allow anall the way through the H&I die
4. size nose first all the way through the H&I die
5. Replace knock out pin back in .310 H&I die, lube and seat GC as normal

Anything else ??[smilie=b:

I have several rifle boolits I size down, one being a 185 gr that drops from my mould at .314--good for my Enfield. I size it down to .310 for my 30-30 and 30-06 and it shoots like a dream.

But what I do is simply size it down with the Lee push-through sizers. I had a couple of custom sizes made, but if I were going that route again, I'd spend my money with Buckshot or Lathesmith.

When I get the boolit to .310, I'll then run it through the lubesizer--but by then, it's a lube-only operation.

When sizing down significantly, I want to push the boolits through nose-first.

:coffee:

[Pat I.]

Clover lapping or grinding compound will work. If you decide to go this route and can't find any locally drop me a note and I'll send you a little. It doesn't take much and the dies open pretty fast so a little will do. I usually smear a little on three or four unsized bullets and just keep running them through checking often with clean unsized bullets until I get the size I want. There's no better way to get concentrically sized bullets than with the Lee die.

I doubt if you'd have to worry about lube grooves closing up sizing down .004 and probably not even .010. I size my quenched WW bullets without lube or a check in the Lee die, HT them, and then lube and stick the check on with my lube sizer using a die a .001 or so bigger. I will roll about every 6th or 7th bullet in a little lube smeared on a piece of paper just to make it easier but even that's not neccesary. Haven't leaded up a Lee die or riveted a check shank up yet.

[montana_charlie]

Although I'm on his ignore list, montana charlie couldn't be further from the truth. Come on guys..if you size more then .003 of inch you ruined the bullet??????? I don't think so.
I have to agree. I have even sized jacketed bullets down 0.006" w/ very good accuracy. If more than 0.003", I like to size in steps, nose first in a Star or Lee setup.From Lyman's FAQ

Q: What is the maximum amount a cast bullet can be sized?
A: We do not recommend sizing down more than .002" to .003" as this will cause severe deformity to the bullet, causing decreased accuracy.

Personaly, i have sized down .004" in 44mag. using a Lyman 450, no problems.
Take it up with Lyman, 'star'. I still have no interest in what you do...
CM

[StarMetal]

You can open up a Lee push through die just as concentric with fine grit automotive sand paper from the hardware store using a steel rod and roll method. You can to it on the lathe too with that rod and paper. I believe it was Buckshot that first mentioned this method. Takes longer, but you can do the Lyman and RCBS dies this way too. Longer because they are much harder steel.

Joe

[pdawg_shooter]

I size .311 down to .3015 all the time for paper patching. No problem in a Lee push through style die.

[Nrut]

Wayne,
I routinely size down .377, .380, .384 boolits to .368-.370 to shoot in my 9.3's..
The best cast boolit 5 shot group at 100 meters that I have shot was .512" using a scope with heavy cross hairs set on 5 power.

I just recently bought a rifle chambered in 9.3X74R .. I sized down a .380"/233gr. (Boomers group buy boolit) from .380" to .369".. My first 3 shot 50 meter group after sight in with that boolit was .450".. This was a guesstimate fire forming load because I want to use the unsized fired cases for paper patch boolits..

The tricks to doing this like others above have said, is to lubrasize and gas check with a sizer at or near as cast diameter. Then you resize down to your target size with a Push Thru type sizer.. I prefer Buckshots push thru's over Lee for the following reasons..
1. they have a longer sizing bearing surface, ie. less chance of boolit bending during size down..(extruding)
2. faster delivery
3. less expensive
I find that Loverin Style boolits lend themselves to this type of sizing the best.
I usually size down in one pass when sizing down 10 thou. or less. with out any problems..
Would you believe that you can size down 38-55 boolits to .360-361 to shot in a .358 win or .35 Whelen? :shock:..
Probably not eh?
:)

[Piedmont]

The gas checks look different when I size down several thousandths in a push through after bullets were lubsized normally base-first in a larger die. They get kinda' cupped. If i size down in a series of steps base-first every time they hug the shank normally.

Anybody else have this happen? Does it make a difference when you shoot them?

[303Guy]

They get kinda' cupped.I get that too. I've stopped using gas checks as I paper patch but even with plain base I get that efect but at least I can deburr lead. I had planned to make a punch that would support the GC but never got a round 'toowit'.:roll:

[stephen perry]

My reason for not sizing more than a couple of numbers is that I desire to protect the integrity of the lube bands. Sizing so as the bands are looking like the Snake River in the windy part does nothing for my good nature. I use a Lyman 45 and 450. Some of these sizing methods some of you have are best left in your shop.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[Nrut]

My reason for not sizing more than a couple of numbers is that I desire to protect the integrity of the lube bands. Sizing so as the bands are looking like the Snake River in the windy part does nothing for my good nature. I use a Lyman 45 and 450. Some of these sizing methods some of you have are best left in your shop.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep


"New opinions are always suspect, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common." -John Locke

:bigsmyl2:

[StarMetal]

The gas checks look different when I size down several thousandths in a push through after bullets were lubsized normally base-first in a larger die. They get kinda' cupped. If i size down in a series of steps base-first every time they hug the shank normally.

Anybody else have this happen? Does it make a difference when you shoot them?

No it doesn't make a difference that I have found. Some my accurate rifles have cupped gas checks. One member believe, and we're talking cupped facing out which is called convexed, that being the metal of the gas check is not actually touching the base of the bullet that it keeps the powder combustion heat off the base of the bullet.

Joe

[VintageRifle]

I size the 130gr RCBS 7.62mm SPL from .313~.314 down to .309" for my K31. Shoots great.