Bore or groove diameter bullets for Paper patching?

[Johnny bravo]

Gents, I am a bit perplexed here:???: It appears all the shooters I have met in the UK patch their bullets to groove size .i.e. 458/.459 whereas the American shooters seem to be advocating bore size patching, i.e .450.

I too have been shooting some groove diameter PP bullets- that I bought ready made- lately. The accuracy has been good, however they need to be seated as deep as my GG bullets or they won’t chamber. The couple of shooters I have met here say their barrels are throated for PP bullets and therefore they can seat the bullets far out in the case. I cannot do this as my rifle has no such throat.

I am now thinking of buying a custom PP mould. But considering that I have no free bore/throat etc in my rifle, should I go for a mould that drops bullets for groove diameter or one that drops for bore diameter? I would like to seat my PP bullets as far out in the case as possible as I understand that is the best way to go.

Would I be able to seat a bore diameter bullet far out in the case in my un-throated barrel?

Thanks.
ATB,
JB

[calaloo]

As a general rule one patches his bullets to groove diameter if he is using smokeless powder and to bore diameter if using black powder. This is to aid in loading successive shots after fouling occures. The black powder explodes with such force that it causes the bullet to obturate to fit the grooves. If you clean after every shot or use duplex loads a bullet of groove diameter can be used.

[Don McDowell]

Johnny go up to the paper patch section, read everything you can find by Leadpot, Kenny Wasserburger and Rick Mulhern.
Then if you still have questions go over to the Shilo forum and find Kenny ,Rick, Kurt and Orville.
But for the a quick answer most of the folks shooting really high scores with paper patch are doing it with bore diameter bullets.

[martinibelgian]

There's just one answer - try both, and see which one works best... I shoot groove dia., but lots of people have success with bore dia. There's more than 1 way to skin a cat! In the UK, Michael Haselgrove would be the person to contact, as he has been using them quite successfully.

[montana_charlie]

I too have been shooting some groove diameter PP bullets- that I bought ready made- lately. The accuracy has been good, however they need to be seated as deep as my GG bullets or they won’t chamber. The couple of shooters I have met here say their barrels are throated for PP bullets and therefore they can seat the bullets far out in the case. I cannot do this as my rifle has no such throat.
Johnny,
The primary reason (among modern shooters) for setting the bullet so far out is to reduce (or eliminate) damage to the bullet as it clears the 'chamber' and enters the 'bore'.
A bore diameter 'package' can be set out that far with no special modification of the chamber and throat.

I have been patching to groove since last fall...while burning black powder.
I don't shoot often so my experimenting has gone slowly, which gives me lots of time to read about what others do.

Like you, I must seat groove diameter PP bullets pretty deeply. That is about .600" for me. The bore diameter guys are lucky to go as deep as .200"...except for one.

Kenny Wasserberger seats bore diameter bullets to .420" in a chamber that was not cut specifically for paper patching. I see no reason to ask him why...it is obviously something he found that works well for him.

Considering that a moderately deep-seated bore-diameter bullet can pass through a barrel with little enough damage to provide the results that Kenny has obtained...I think it's reasonable to assume a bullet seated to GG depth can make it through in equally good condition.

The caveat is that wiping between shots is mandatory in order to chamber the load.

My own results on the target have been 'variable'...with tight and loose groups alternating between shooting sessions. The good ones give me hope that I can be as satisfied as martinibelgian (and some others) with patched-to-groove bullets. But, even my loose ones would reliably take a deer at a hundred yards.

My remarks don't help much with deciding which mould you should buy, but perhaps they add to the 'accumulation' enough to tilt you one way or the other.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Actually if you spend anytime reading what Orville and Kurt are coming up with, Orville duplicating the old chambers, and Kurt modifying the angle of the lead, its looking more and more like the gentler the angle from the lead into the rifling the better paper patch bullets are doing accuracy wise.

[1874Sharps]

I had a special custom mold made that casts a 45 caliber PP boolit at 0.448 inches at the base and 0.442 inches at the nose end of the bearing surface. It patches up 0.008 inches more for a tapered diameter of 0.456 to 0.450 inches. This boolit seats about 3/8 inches in the mouth of the 45-70 case with a full 70 grains of BP and two wads sandwiching a grease cookie. A taper crimp will hold the boolit in place, too. Now this is not a dedicated target boolit but rather it is intended for informal target shooting and hunting and it works well for this purpose. This boolit turns out to shoot well with smokeless as well, although I load it with BP. There is more than one way to skin a cat, I suppose, and choices depend upon application, but I found this boolit to be a good compromise between the two most common types of PP boolits: bore or groove diameter.

[405]

JB,
The posts so far make it sound like there are ONLY two possibilities here- bore OR groove. There are more than two possibilities for final PP diameter!

I shoot two different diameters of, tapered, PP bullets in two different 45 cal. rifles, interchangeably. Both rifles have nominal bore and groove diameters of .450 and .458. One bullet, bare, starts at .446 and the other starts at .4475. The final PP diameter for both end up between .453 and .455. Both rifles have what is called a regular, relatively "short" GG throat. The final PP diameters along with the tapered design allow me to seat the bullets well out.... in effect they become a PP bore riding design. BTW both combinations are very, very accurate black powder shooters!

[Don McDowell]

Let me tell you about very very accurate bp shooters.
I had the priviledge of spotting for Kenny not long ago while he was getting sight settings prior to the Sagebrush match with his Dora rifle. Tell you what it's almost boring saying yeh give it a minute left and lets see where that one goes..... Oh well that one was ontop of the last one. Same thing over and over and over from the 700-1000 yd targets.....10inch group at 1000,,,,,, hohoummmm.
Also have had the privilidge of shooting 2 of Leadpots rifles, now that could get boring after awhile, but just for kicks you jiggle a round of to the side just to hear ol Leadpot say Hey what happened to that one you had 3 of them on top of each other....
l

[Johnny bravo]

Thank you all for your time. Much appreciated :-)


In the UK, Michael Haselgrove would be the person to contact, as he has been using them quite successfully.
MB, one of the gents I mentioned is MH and he has been extremely selfless and helpful in teaching me. But as he suggests, what works for him may not necessarily work for me as we shoot two different rifles altogether.



The caveat is that wiping between shots is mandatory in order to chamber the load.

My own results on the target have been 'variable'...with tight and loose groups alternating between shooting sessions. The good ones give me hope that I can be as satisfied as martinibelgian (and some others) with patched-to-groove bullets. But, even my loose ones would reliably take a deer at a hundred yards.
CM
MC, I do wipe for each shot but have noticed the inconsistency that you mention. For example, just last week I shot a card at 600yds with my normal GG bullets; majority of the shots were in the 4 ring with three in the 5 ring. Half way through the card, I tried some of the PP bullets above and hey presto, I was getting fliers way out in the magpie (3 ring) and a couple in the 2 ring!! I then again went back to my GG bullets and finished shooting the card with a couple of 5s and one 4. An interesting point here is that I shot the last GG rounds with the same windage adjustments that I had used for the earlier PP bullets that had scored a couple of 2s. That was a difference of 3 minutes of wind just by changing from PP to a GG bullet! Hence, I was wondering whether the seating depth would have an effect with this issue.


JB,
I shoot two different diameters of, tapered, PP bullets in two different 45 cal. rifles, interchangeably. Both rifles have nominal bore and groove diameters of .450 and .458. One bullet, bare, starts at .446 and the other starts at .4475. The final PP diameter for both end up between .453 and .455. Both rifles have what is called a regular, relatively "short" GG throat. The final PP diameters along with the tapered design allow me to seat the bullets well out.... in effect they become a PP bore riding design. BTW both combinations are very, very accurate black powder shooters!

405, thank you for a very enlightening post. I actually will take your advice and make some bullets of varying sizes inbetween Bore and Groove diameter and see how they perform. I have a .446in die at the moment and that should enable me to try some rounds.

ATB,
JB

[martinibelgian]

Johnny,
I do know MH's rifles are specially throated indeed, making them dedicated PP shooters. Getting a standard chamber to shoot can be iffy and delicate indeed, it all is a question of finding the rght balance. However, 1 thing NOT to do is mixing during the same session GG and PP bullets, as they require different bore conditions. That layer of lube/fouling left by a GG bullet will make sure that the 1st few shots PP will arrive somwhere not intended untill the bore condition has stabilized to 'normal' for PP. Best bet is to thoroughly clean the bore before making the switch.
BTW, as to tapered bullets - I have the mold, I even have patched bullets ready, now I need the time to test them... That's the hardest part!