Bore Leading - Boolits Too Soft or Too Hard ???

[03lover]

I have been reloading for fifty years. All this means is I have had many successes and failures, many without knowing why. After fifty years, I still have much to learn so I can do it right the first time.

I need good information about what is the best boolit hardness, the best alloy using wheel weights, how much tin is really needed to help prevent leading. I am looking for loads in hand guns running from 700 fps to a maximum of 1200 fps..

That said, I have been having leading problems in several revolvers and a few semi auto pistols. The leading usually starts in the forcing cone and advances into the bore. I know it isn't a lube problem, because the leading never goes very far into the bore and I clean before that can happen. Never is there leading starting at the muzzle.

From the information I have found on this forum and others, the cause of the problem, assuming the boolit fit to chambers, throats and bore are correct:

1. Too soft a Boolit
2. Too fast a powder or heavy a charge
3. Too hard a Boolit
4. Velocity and or pressure of load too high
5. Boolit alloy needs more tin

There is a long list of possibilities, much good information and some misinformation to be considered.

In the semi auto's I have had some success using slower powders, but I am sure this is just compensating for the real problem. In the revolvers, reducing the velocities has helped as has a harder boolit, but sling shot velocities are not what I am looking for. I am a paper puncher, accuracy is my goal, but at target to mid range velocities.

I must admit some degree of confusion when it comes to boolit hardness. It is said too soft causes leading and others say too hard can cause leading. Does this mean a person needs boolits of several different hardness for different velocities or pressure loads? I have considered buying cast boolits of different known hardness levels to test for what works best before I try casting my own to some known hardness. I have been casting for most of the fifty years, so casting boolits is not new to me.

Information that provides real boolit hardness numbers and know or measured velocities will be most helpful. Calibers run from 38/357, 9mm to 45 ACP and Colt.

[thx997303]

I wonder if your boolit may be too small and you have a restriction in your barrel from the front sight.

At least, this is possible in revolvers.

[docone31]

In my 38/357, and .45ACP an 9mm, I use molds .002 over groove, water dropped wheel weight, and Charges of Blue Dot.
No leading, full tilt loads.

[Wally]

03lover

I shoot a wide variety of calibers & pistols--some lead up others do not. I have tried different bullets (hard & soft), lubes, sizer dies, powders, etc...those that lead up will lead up. Many swear by fire lapping and all but others swear at it... So, I shoot them as is and will pass a tight fitting aluminum flysecrren patch down the bore, after so many shots and just enjoy shooting them. It takes but a few seconds and does wonders. Lately I have decided to use GC bullets in the .44 & .357 magnum & when I do there is virtually no fouling. I make my own gas checks and it is no big deal or trouble to make or to load GC bullets for me.

Those that will tell you that their magnums don't lead up with heavy loads---it may well be that they still do, but not enough to allow one to see it. I have yet to see any magnum pistol that doesn't lead up when using lead bullets at high velocities.

[Bucks Owin]

Start with a CLEAN bore, no trace of copper fouling from "J word" bullets. That can take more cleaning than you might think at first!....JMO, Dennis

[GrizzLeeBear]

+1 to what Buck Owin said.

Also, one thing you left out of your list, which is the FIRST thing on my list. Is your boolit .001" to .002" larger than bore size? An undersized boolit is an almost sure way to get leading.

[fredj338]

Bulletfit to bore has a huge part in leading. This seems more of an issue w/ rev. because of the variations in chamber throats. I have little problems using ww cast bullets in most semiautos upto 1100fps. For rev. the same alloy gets me to 1200fps or so w/ proper throat diamteres. Lube matters too, some work better than others.

[Char-Gar]

Welcome 03lover we have somethings in common. I started loading in 1958 and I love the 03 and 03A3 rifles.

Some folks tend to make this cast bullet stuff way more complex than necessary because they are are not linear in their problem solving and answers to questions. Let me take on your question about leading in the breech end of your sixgun barrel. Lets do it by the numbers..

1. Leading in the breech end of the barrels means the hot gases are attacking the sides of the bullet base and leaving those nasty streaks.
2. This happens when the base of your bullet does not expand to form a seal and keep those gases away from the sides of the base.
3. This means your bullet are too hard and could also be too small.
4. 90% of the time it means your bullets are too hard as soft bullets will expand to form a seal even if a hair too small.

Lets talk about hardness and size of bullets in sixguns one at a time, and also by the numbers.

1. The hardness of the bullet depends on the pressure behind it, which will also translate into how much velocity as more pressure means more speed.
2. Target velocty loads in the 600 to 750 fps range can use fairly soft alloy something in the range of 1-30 (tin to lead) or wheelweight cut 50/50 with pure lead. YOu can use straight wheel weight, but is not necessary.
3. Move to mid-range loads in the 750 to 1,000 fps range, and aircooled wheel weight is just the huckleberry.
4. Magnum, full snort or heavy loads above 1,000 fps need an alloy in the 15 to 18 Bhn area. Here will are talking about good old Lyman No. 2 or Taracorp Magnum alloy, both of which can be home mixed. Some folks claim to get good results from air cooled wheel weights at magnum speeds. However my experience limits that alloy to pressure/velocities no more than 1,100 fps.
5. Don't get suckered into using rock hard alloys in sixguns. I am talking about water quenched wheel weight or linotype. Those can have their uses, but I am trying not to over complicate this and get you confused. Just don't use them and you will be a happier man.

Now lets talk about bullet diameter in sixguns. I am going to keep this simply by just talking about the what and not the why. No sense writing a book here.

1. As long as a loaded round will chamber easily in your sixgun the bullet IS NOT to big. The bullet size size down in the chamber throat to a custom fit and there will be no significant increase in pressure for the doing so.
2. The bullet should be as large or larger than the cylinder throat as long as you pay attention to No. 1 above.
3. A good size in the 38/357 will be .358 or .359. A 44 pistol likes bullet in the .432 to .431 range. A 45 likes .454. The larger size is always better as long as No. 1 is remembered.

Let me throw powder in as an extra.

1. For target loads fast powders like Bullseye, 231 and other with similar burning rates are what works well.
2. For mid-range loads medium burners like Unique, AA5 and the like are just the ticket.
3. When pressure and velocity gets above the 1,100 fps range, then go to 2400, AA9 and the like.

If you will follow the above and treat it as holy writ, you will have sucess in your sixgun loading. you can wander down side paths later if you have the mind too.

That is as simple as I can make it and it will work for you. I will start a new response for the autopistol.

[Char-Gar]

Now to cast bullets in autopistol rounds. All I know anything about are the 9mm Luger and 45 ACP. I have no experience with any others and am look looking for any. By the numbers.

1. An alloy the hardness of air cool wheel weight is all you need for these rounds throughout their power range.
2. Folks that talk about the need for rock hard alloys because of shallow rifling in autopistol barrels are full of it. I have fired a half million rounds of cast bullet down many 45 ACP barrels and I think I would have noticed the need for a rock hard alloy if one was needed.
3. Fast powders like Bullseye and medium powders like Unique can be used through the power range, but I give the nod to Unique for more than target loads.
4. Size 9mm bullets .358 whatever pistol you have.
5. Size 45 ACP bujllets .452 whatever pistol you have.
6. Use a taper crimp on both rounds.
7. Keep an eye on the overall length of the round because it does make a difference.


Das all...

[Shiloh]

2:1 range lead to WW water dropped for in .38/357, .40S&W .45 ACP. up to 1050.
If I thoought that they needed to be harder, 3:2 Range to WW water dropped.

1:1 (50/50) for .30 cal. No leading up to 1750 for sure, probably a bit faster.

This is a boolit that fits. As stated here at Cast Boolits many times, Fit Is King!!

For a long time I was un-necessarily sending Lino sweetened boolits downrange..
Proper fit and softer boolit at the velocities I shoot is fine.

Shiloh

[runfiverun]

i pretty much agree with chargar
EXCEPT for paragraph number 4 on boolit hardness i completely disregard that myself.
the only mold i even have for a magnum handgun that takes a g/c is purely by accident and it gets used in the 445 supermag only because it's ported with a special type of chamber porting.
when i have the 10" [non ported]bbl on, it gets the same 429421 from ww's and 25% pure as the other 44's do air cooled.
now for 44 man to come along and dispute what i just said...:lol:

[243winxb]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=700845&postcount=18 My definition of leading is loss of accuracy. If i wanted a bullet to shear, i would do exactly what is posted in this quote. Bullet larger than the throat, oversize is better?:?: You can't prove it by me. I will keep doing it the Lyman way, same as i been doing it for 40+ years. Yes, you will get some lead deposits, but don't you get copper deposits on firing jacketed?:?:
1. As long as a loaded round will chamber easily in your sixgun the bullet IS NOT to big. The bullet size size down in the chamber throat to a custom fit and there will be no significant increase in pressure for the doing so.
2. The bullet should be as large or larger than the cylinder throat as long as you pay attention to No. 1 above.
3. A good size in the 38/357 will be .358 or .359. A 44 pistol likes bullet in the .432 to .431 range. A 45 likes .454. The larger size is always better as long as No. 1 is remembered.
Information that provides real boolit hardness numbers and know or measured velocities will be most helpful. I have never tested hardness, except the thumb nail test. The Chronograph was used years ago to check fps, no records broken there, but near maximun fps in 357 & 44mag. Mostly target loads for me also. The problem comes from working with Scrap Metal , who know whats in it.:groner: IMO [smilie=l: Thank you. (Here we go again) :holysheep

[thx997303]

I think you have taken the quote about 45 acp and 9mm out of context.

That post is ONLY speaking to autos.

[Edubya]

I'll wade in to this with a thought.
If the boolit fits the bore correctly but has to jump more than the length that it is seated the gas will cut through any opening before it is seated. That also means that funnel that we call a forcing cone. So, if we reduce the jump space with a correctly seated and correctly formed head it will start obturating before it leaves the cylinder/chamber throat and keep that seal throughout its forced ejection.
If we load at the longest possible COL, we get the boolit obturating as the brass is obturating and the seal will prevent the gas cutting.
If your alloy is too hard to obturate with the powder charge it will gas cut. If you're wanting lower velocities, use softer alloys. But, always load at the longest COL possible with that particular boolit.
I drop a boolit in the chamber and force a hand expanded (once fired) case onto it the withdraw it carefully, measure it and if necessary seat it .010 shorter. This is for lower velocity boolits.- - - I do not roll crimp the brass on these, but I do a thumb/bench press to verify that they're secure.

NOTE: The above is stated as an opinion and you must make your own decisions as YMMV!
EW

[03lover]

WOW. A lot of great responses.

I will try to answer most of the questions raised.

In my revolvers, the throats are larger than the bores and not excessively. The bullets are sized .001" to .002" over groove diameter and fit the throats well although I haven't tried boolits over the throad diameter. Bore constrictions are not a problem. Boolit fit is good.

In a test firing yesterday, (400) rounds, I was able to prove boolits that were BHN 15 were not a problem in the 45 Colt. The same load using a boolit that was BHN 13 did start to lead, first in the forcing cone then progressed into the bore. The BHN 15 boolits showed no lead in the forcing cone or bore.

I understand how boolits that are too hard can be a problem, but usually something about the boolit fit, size or velocity/pressure has to be out of wack also. I understand what some recommend about the boolit being softer so the base can upset and seal the bore being a good solution to reducing or eliminating leading BUT, this is easily carried too far. Too soft a boolit can and does expand the base so much that it causes leading in the forcing cone by having to swag the boolit down excessively and often causes a lot of barrel cyclinder gap spitting. The leading will then procede on into the bore.

I am convinced boolits intended for loads that may be in the low, mid-range and high velocity ranges for a particular revolver or pistol can be too soft or too hard for the task to avoid excessive leading that ruins accuracy and makes cleaning the gun a chore. I don't believe there is one hardness of cast boolit that is good for all. I am trying to determine what hardness is needed for the low and mid-range revolver and pistol loads.

By the way, I shoot my own cast boolits in a bunch of rifles, mostly old military, in 6.5mm, 30-06, 8mm, 303 British and many more. No leading problems with the exception of a couple that have rough bores. I even have a 30-06 Springfield that I built up using a brand new WW 2 Mann accuracy barrel that will shoot small groups, cover the entire five shot groups with a dime, at 100 yards and do it all day long without cleaning. Boolits run from as low as BHN 12.0 to BHN 15.0. Yes, I do have a good hardness tester.

My semi auto pistols are 9mm, 38 Super and 45 ACP. The two 45 ACP pistols have no leading at all with low to mid-range loads. The 9mm Dan Wesson PM 9 started out so darn tight that it took a combination of firing (2500) rounds and lubing the thing until it was almost dripping wet and hand cycleing over another (2000) times before the slide to frame fit was free enough to cycle reliably with factory jacketed ammo. When I cleaned all the copper out of the barrel and started testing cast boolits, I ran into too well fitted pistol problem again. By the time 115 grain cast was loaded up to cycle the gun, the pressures were too high. 124 grain boolits were a little better and 130 grain better yet, but only when I started to use slow powder like AA 7 and even AA 9. This gun proved to me that velocities were too high and caused lots of leading with the lighter boolits and faster powders. The gun is accurate as all get out, but a real stinker to find the sweet spot. The 38 Super is much like the 9mm. I should have stuck with the 45 ACP or bought one of those bucket shooter 9mm's that never misses a lick, but will never be a target shooter either. I have played with a lot of different recoil springs and they are either too light and don't return to battery well or they can be a bit too strong and the loads have to be heavy enough to cycle the gun will be too high of velocity and lead the barrel. There may be a PM 9 for sale next year.

Keep the suggestions coming. There has to be some good answers to these leading problems. Like so many of us, I have had to deal with more theory than fact for most of my life when it comes to these leading problems. It works sometimes and at other times not so good. I know there is a multitude of factors that are part of the equation and we don't always have the luxury of knowing what all of the factors are. The more suggestions and questions I see, the greater the chance someone will hit on the numbers I need.

I do plan to purchase some boolits in the BHN range of 15.0 to 20.0 for testing in the 38/357 and 45 Colts. The BHN of 15.0 showed considerable promise and if going up in hardness a little eliminates my leading problem, great. If it almost does that is a step in the right direction.

[03lover]

Edubya,

I hear what you and many others are saying about boolits obturating. But we need to consider this. My loaded cartridges are at the maximum overall length to fit in the revolver chambers. The boolits are sized to a snug fit in the cylinder throats. Therefore no obturating can occur until the boolit leaves the cylinder. The boolit then passes through the barrel cylinder gap and into the forcing cone where some obturating can occur depending on the hardness of the boolit and the pressure of the load. Most experts will agree, the load reaches maximum pressure before the boolit leaves the cylinder with powders in the fast to mid-range burn rate. Then the boolit, if obturating has occured, is swaged down to fit the bore. That would be the cycle.

What we don't know is how much obturating is a good thing and how much becomes a bad thing. The bad is when leading is actually caused by too much obturating entering the forcing cone or too little and gas cutting becomes the cause of the leading.

The semi auto pistol should have the edge on leading without the longer boolit jump before engaging the rifling. But, maximum cartridge over all length is controlled by the magazine cartridge fit and there is still a little free bore or forcing cone so to speak to deal with.

We all agree on one thing, the boolit has to be the right hardness and diameter to work well in any gun with all the other factors considered. The Problem is finding what is right for a particular gun. Anyone who says he or she has the perfect boolit and load that works great in all gun of that caliber, hasn't tried the load in very many of those guns.

[BruceB]

Gents;

I've been casting now for something over forty years.

In the last twelve years, living here in Nevada, I've been using wheelweight alloy almost exclusively for at least thirty different guns/cartridges and I do NOT try to isolate a separate and distinct hardness or alloy for each of them. Such a program would be pointless to me and incredibly time-consuming.

Very few of my guns get "special" treatment. Among them are a Shiloh .45-70 (30:1 lead/tin), a .50 flintlock (pure lead roundball), and the very occasional cast softpoints for .416 Rigby and .404 Jeffery.

All my semi-auto handguns get water-dropped wheelweight bullets. The revolvers, from .38 Special to .44 Magnum, get air-cooled WW. All of the rifles, including military semi-autos and a wide range of sporters, see only water-dropped WW.

My results satisfy ME, and I am of course the party that needs to be satisfied by my own ammunition. The handguns are used mainly at "normal" handgun ranges, out to fifty yards, and the bullets work great...even when stretched to 300-400 yard plinking. The rifles also perform very well, often running TEN-shot groups around the magic inch or less at 100. "Good enough" for me, in other words.

In these later years, I do NOT bother much with esoterica. All my .30s, for instance, shoot very well indeed with .311" bullets. All my .303s seem content with .314", .38/.357 guns do fine with .359", and all the .44s are happy with .431". I haven't tried to measure a throat in years.

It's possible, not necessarily certain, that I could improve the accuracy of the loads by specializing the rounds for each gun. Frankly, I have too many guns that I enjoy shooting, and not enough time (or interest) to go to the lengths necessary to try for a limited improvement. Thinking about the resultant difficulty in keeping such specialized ammo sorted-out finishes off whatever interest I might have had, and I go have a beer while the impulse passes.

For SOME of us, K-I-S-S still has considerable charm. For those who are fascinated by such routines as outlined in this thread, more power to you! There's plenty of of room for all types in this hobby.

[BruceB]

Ooooops....

Sorry to expand the subject to include those danged rifles.

I should mention that my handgun loads do shoot without leading, even up to "design" speeds like 1500 fps in the Super Blackhawk and 1300-plus in the .357. This is without gaschecks, although I do use some gaschecked designs from time to time.

It usually requires the use of some kind of tool to drive my bullets through the cylinder throats...it's not difficult, but doing it with my fingers is a never-happen.

[Bullshop Junior]

You're not using a good enough lube.

[03lover]

With a boolit that is soft enough to obtruate we need to understand where this can happen and how much. How much is good or does no harm and how much may actually be bad.

Oburation would first occur as the pressure builds and the boolit starts to leave the shell case. When the boolit is sized to fit tightly in the chamber throats, the boolit base would be swaged back down in the chamber throat. Next chance to obturate the boolit base is as the base of the boolit leaves the front of the cylinder throat and starts to enter the forcing cone. Now, I propose at that moment, the front half of most boolits has already fully sealed off the bore and no gases can escape past the boolit therefore no flame cutting. Really short boolits should be a much greater problem than a longer one. Any leading in the forcing cone is caused by the softer boolit being swaged down as it enters deeper into the cone and bore and not by flame cutting. If the obturation is minimal, leading would be minimal or not at all.

An easy test to determine just how much of a given boolit is actually sealing off the bore when the base just clears the front of the cylinder is to open or remove the cylinder. Then take one of the boolits you use and drop it into the forcing cone and press as hard as you can with your thumb. The amount of the boolit still protuding from the rear of the barrel is the same amount that would still be in the chamber throat when fired. That amount of boolit protuding would also be the amount that would pressed fully into the bore at the moment the boolit base clears the front of the cylinder, sealing off the bore to hot gas blow by. If there is no boolit protuding from the rear of the barrel, there is a good chance there will be a leading problem by blow by gases.

This forcing cone thing is one of the factors that most of us don't really study in detail. Forcing cones can vary in depth and diameter. I think most of us would agree a forcing cone that is too long and too large in diameter would not be a good thing. No cone at all with perfect chamber to bore alignment could be great, like a rifle. But how many of us has actually measured the forcing cones in our revolvers. Darn few, so we are guessing at how much of a factor the forcing cone is relative to a leading problem, just as we are with how much boolit base obturation occurs, or how much is good or bad. The boolit test I mentioned is a good way to get an idea if there is a chance of a leading problem with a given boolit.

For those that disagree with me thinking the base obturation of the boolit isn't really the only thing that seals of the bore to blow by hot gases or may think the hot gases can still melt lead off the sides or base of the boolit, I have lab tested data the proves that isn't possible.

Verl Smith of LBT bullets has performed a test under lab conditions that disproves the idea of hot powder gases melting lead off the base of a boolit and I will extend that test to include a boolit that has the front half of the boolit already sealing off the bore exposing only the rear half and base to the hot gases. Verl's test was performed by smearing grease on the base of cast bullets and firing them with normal loads into a medium for intact recovery. The recovered bullets still had grease on the bases. If those super hot gases can't burn off the grease, they certainly can't melt lead off the bullet base, or for that matter the side of a bullet with the front half sealing off the bore. The only way flame cutting can cut or melt lead off the side or base of a boolit is for it to past at high pressure and velocity completely past the boolit.

Next my thought process takes me to the use of gas checked bullets. I think we all agree the gas checks are used to seal off the rear of the boolit to prevent blow by of hot gases, therefore preventing leading and allowing the use of higher pressure and velocity loads. That gas check performs another important task. It prevents the base of the boolit from the obturation that would otherwise occur and cause problems. That helps prevent the leading that starts in the forcing cone.

[Char-Gar]

Boys, I will make one final statment about the size of bullet in sixgun and let it go as I am not intrested in getting othesr to agree. I have been at the cast bullets in sixguns game for over 50 years and have fired them in hundreds of revolvers and have well over 60 sixguns in the fleet now. I know what works for me and am willing to let it rest there.

In the best of worlds it would be nice to do a custom fit of the bullet to the individual revolver charge hole throats. But when you have a dozen or two sixuns in each caliber than become rather burdensome, so you look at the issue again.

YOu can size your bullets in a sizing die on your reloading bench or you can size them in the sixgun charge hole throat. Either way, they are sized and the custom fit is achieved. This shear stuff is nonsense. Providing you don't have one of those old Lyman sizing dies with the sharp shelf, you don't do any serious shearing when you size in a die. The metal is moved, but not sheared off. The same thing happens in aixgun throat.

Some of us have learned that if we size bullets to fit the largest throat in the fleet, then we are go to go with all other sixguns in the same caliber.



You can size in a die with elbow grease, or size in the cylinder throat with the pressure of powder gas. allee same..allee same!

I sm not the only one, who has discovered this as many others do the same including some names that would be instantly recognizable as experts in the field. This simple approach gives up nothing in terms of accuracy and gains much in terms of simplicity of loading accurate handgun ammo. They don't write about it because it would cut way down on the number of articals that can be produced on the issue.

The bug-a-boo of increased pressure with oversized sixgun bullet has proved to be a staw man in spite of Elmer Keiths cpmcerns. The light went on a few years back when I watched Jim Taylor put a 45 Colt cylinder in a Ruger 44 Magnum BH and fire six rounds. He then handed me the pistol to unload, and the cases droped without no problems and showed no signs of high pressure. Those .454 bullets sixed down to .430 in the bore and even hit the target at 25 yards. Some of the bullet were recovered and they were long indeed. They had extruded and not sheared off. It is all a matter of when and where the pressure peaks in the gun.

I know much of this flys in the face of popular thiinking, but for all of that it works and works well. You boys do what you want. It is a matter of little consequence to me.

I will get in trouble for this, but Veral Smith has published allot of stuff that is highly suspect. I would be cautious about citing him as a source of wisdom.

If there are more than the usual number of typos I am not drunk, I have just misplaced my glasses.

[243winxb]

The only way flame cutting can cut or melt lead off the side or base of a boolit is for it to past at high pressure and velocity completely past the boolit. How would you explain the gas cutting on the top strap of the Ruger 357 maximum that made Ruger stop making the Blackhawk? :?: I agree it can't get to the sides of the bullet. The 44 mag. is no longer king. many handguns are putting out big time PSI. If the gas can cut the top strap, can't it cut the base of the lead bullet?:?: This i don't understand? Plus i have seen a S&W 44mag. M29 where the leading edge of the forcing cone became almost a sharp edge from gas cutting Or was it from something else?:?: http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_R-Cutting-S.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/R-Cutting-S.jpg)

[44man]

03lover has shown a lot of wisdom! Then the picture of the .357 max shows what pressure alone can do. Imagine a dead soft boolit subjected to this pressure at the gap and cone. No, it will not melt but if the pressure can cut steel, don't you think it can also cut lead? Allow that pressure to be released along the sides of a boolit and it is washed up.
The first answer is always to make the boolit softer to obturate the bore but why did you fit the boolit in the first place? Where will the boolit expand first? At the gap and cone of course! :coffee:
Then with all of this pressure, how does anyone expect the soft boolit to grip the rifling and start to spin? HA-HA, a GAS check, but will it save a soft boolit? That little bitty piece of copper under tons of force is supposed to stop the skid and make the boolit turn RIGHT NOW. I have news for you guys. The boolit should have been hard enough to start the spin before the check reaches the rifling. It's only purpose is to aid the fit to the rifling so gas can not go past but if the boolit is hard enough and fits right to start, a gas check is a waste of money.
I am always amazed that a guy gets super accuracy with a bullet and expects to shoot the same load with a 20 to 1 putty ball! :drinks:
I shoot all kinds of alloys without leading because I tailor the alloy for the use and for the powder used. A softer boolit of say 50-50 WW's and pure NEEDS a check no matter how slow the powder, NOT BECAUSE IT WILL LEAD THE GUN but because accuracy goes to pot. Put a check on it and they shoot fine except for some fliers.
I have explained my tests, done for years using fast powders that show the harder the boolit, the better the accuracy is. Just with 231 and Unique, softer boolits were lucky to do 3" at 25 yards yet when I get to 28 to 30 BHN, I can get them to group good at 50 yards.
Slow the powder and boolits shoot fine from 18 to 25 BHN but the soft range still needs a check. In the harder range a PB will do 1" at 100 yards.
If you think a soft boolit is OK with a light load of fast powder, you have not done the work. Slow the powder and boolits can get a little softer but THE LIMIT IS H110 and 296 and you will exceed the limit by going too soft.
How much more do I have to show that you DO NOT WANT A BOOLIT TO EXPAND TO FILL ANYTHING and you sure do not want a well fitting boolit to deform at the gap or cone.
Why don't they use silly putty for a jacket instead of copper?
When you start to try and duplicate the boolit to a bullet, you will find accuracy. There is no need to get super hard either, you do not need lead that fractures.
Here is one target set shot with my .44 at 25 and 50 yards using a very hard boolit and 231 and Unique. This is the RCBS Keith that really shoots for junk. If I had a light LBT style, I could make these better. Softer lead at 25 was way worse then the hard 50 yard groups. Do some work, don't depend on what you read.
Notice the patch---NO LEAD!

[44man]

Here are the same boolits and loads with 22 BHN boolits.

[44man]

Take a guess what 12 BHN does? :bigsmyl2: I should have at least saved the patch! [smilie=s: Only took an hour to remove the lead. Targets went into the burner barrel. OOPS, I meant shotgun patterns.
I just can't save all targets or they would be stacked to the ceiling and it bothers me that I can't show them.

[Char-Gar]

"Do some work, don't depend on what you read." 44man

44man.. Boy do I agree with you here. I have no argument with the fellow who can "put it on the paper". I may not understand how somebody can do something different than I do can get good results, but the paper does not lie. Shooting, like life, has more than one path to the goal and it matters little what path we take if we get there. There is no reason for all of us to have to travel the same path or even agree that one path is better than another. Sometimes it would appear that cast bullet shooting is as much art as it is science, perhaps more.

What gets my goat is all of the arm chair experts, who like to post, pick nits, expouse other folks theory and have never learned by putting the bullet on the paper. They really are not shooters, but just like to expous and argue theory endlessly. They are the gunshop commandos with all the answers. This and other boards are populated with such. Your words should be engraved in stone somewhere!

At one time I was a serious fine art photographer and like shooting everybody with a camera is an expert and has the answers. My mentor and teacher Fred Picker told me over a bottle of wine to pay no attention to any photographer who could not "hang them on the wall". Good advise them and still good advice.

[243winxb]

The boolit should have been hard enough to start the spin before the check reaches the rifling. It's only purpose is to aid the fit to the rifling so gas can not go past but if the boolit is hard enough and fits right to start, a gas check is a waste of money.
I tailor the alloy for the use and for the powder used. Very well said. Adjust the alloy(BHN) to match the pressure (PSI) along with correct diameter & lube, all is well, no leading. MR Lee just might have something here. [smilie=l: http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_LeeChart.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/LeeChart.jpg)

[Wally]

Seems to me it is just more simple to cast a bullet that is large enough to be just a bit larger than the cylinder throat and to use gas checks..the bullets will be accurate and there is no fouling...no worries about the BHN or heat treating, or what lube that you use, etc....

[44man]

Seems to me it is just more simple to cast a bullet that is large enough to be just a bit larger than the cylinder throat and to use gas checks..the bullets will be accurate and there is no fouling...no worries about the BHN or heat treating, or what lube that you use, etc....
Not that simple. It depends on the initial pressure rise and thump on the boolit.
I will always say the recovered boolit should look exactly the same as you cast it sans rifling marks. Rifling marks on the base should never be larger then the rifling.
The problem is that the wrong boolit hardness can be reshaped to the bore and will look good but all the reshaping does not make the thing accurate.
Why make special molds with all kinds of grease grooves, drive bands, lubes, noses and weights? Why not just cut a chunk of lead wire and load it? Because it just does not work!

[03lover]

243winxb,

Great picture. That flame cutting is a result of high pressure and high velocity hot gases and more importantly, many thousands of rounds fired using high velocity loads.

As for why steel can be cut and the base of a lead bullets is not, it is because the bullet base is not subjected to the same very intense narrow stream of high pressure, high velocity gas. The base area of the bullet sees the pressure and gas over a larger area and for the milli second of time that isn't enough time to raise the temperature of the lead to the melting point and it sees the gas only once, not the many thousands of times.

The Lee chart you pictured is something I have used to aid me in my testing. I have been able to shoot enough loads that match the charted data but that is an important part of the test process I am doing.

Chargar,

I believe I stated in the original post that in my years of reloading and shooting I have had many failures and successes. I don't think I have to post the hundreds of pictures of targets I have fired with the very guns I am presently in the process of working out some of the things that haven't well. I can say I have hundreds of targets with ten shot groups at 50 feet that can be completely covered with easily with a quarter and several hundred that are one ragged hole covered with a nickel. I have had a lot of success also. I also have some leading issues with some bullets and loads. This is what I want to fix.

I even plan to try your idea of using the biggest bullet I can chamber with bullets and loads that give me leading problems. I will be surprised if by simply going to the larger diameter bullet cures the problem, but I will be the first to admit it works, if it does.

You say about Verl Smith, "I will get in trouble for this, but Veral Smith has published allot of stuff that is highly suspect. I would be cautious about citing him as a source of wisdom."

Suspect is another way of sayig you probably don't agree with some of what Verl says. Thats OK, we all have doubts about some things. I suggest a person would be wise to question how Verl has arrived at his information. Verl is the man to ask. Another way to prove or disprove what another says is to request exactly how did you arrive at that conclusion because I want to duplicate the research to see if I get the same results. Simply being suspect or disagreeing because it doesn't sit well with your thought proceses, doesn't help you or others for that matter.


44man,

I hope I haven't misunderstood your comments about gas checks. I never said the gas check was to help the bullet spin with the rifling. I said the gas check was intended to prevent blow-by and it also protects the bullet base against obturation. Just those two things.

This subject has turned ugly. The suggestion of arm chair experts was pointed and intended as an insult. I suggest that person look in a mirror. I will not be a part of this kind of discussion.

I apologize to those that wanted to be helpful, but I have seen this kind of thing happen on many other forums. I was wrong to think the Cast Boolit forum may not have that problem.

[runfiverun]

whoa,whoa, back it down a notch.
james's comments were in no way directed at you.
this ain't the first go round of this subject,and it certainly has not gotten ugly.
we see things in a different light is all.
i don't look at the cylinder throats the same way as others i look at the throat shape to match the nose of my boolit same as i do in my rifles.
i don't try to fill anything except the area where the boolit enters the bbl.
and unlike keith [amd maybe like james] doubt his nose style helps align the boolit with the bore.
i picture the cylinder gap as an area to be traversed not built up as the enemy.
and cylinder throats are there to hold the boolit along the way not to be fought against.
there are other powders that are slower yet than h-110 that can easily be used for revolver cases to slow the peak pressures till this happens.
aa-1680 and even aa 2230 come to mind.
it's not that we disagree it's that we see how guns work in different lights.
some here are into revolvers /pistols only,and others like me see them as funny leverguns and revolving rifles.
and we take a different approach to make them work,sometimes we actually learn something that will help.
maybe not now but at some point it would.
trust me when i take out one of the supermags or the 450 express i think of james's words when things get a bit frustrating, and maybe something I said he remembers when he is out hunting.

[Gunslinger]

Very interesting reading indeed...!!!

[44man]

03lover, No, because you are also correct. I just mean that the check will grab the rifling at the most important point of boolit travel. If the boolit is not too soft for the acceleration, that final grip will provide the best seal and get the spin were it needs to be.
But the grip can be overcome with the wrong combination of powder speed and boolit hardness. Then you still get bad accuracy and the gun will still lead. In a case like this, boolit fit means nothing either, you negate all the good work of getting a proper fit.
That was the point I was trying to make, you can make the gas check fail to do it's job. By making the boolit harder so it starts to turn before the check enters the rifling, the check works much better.
Opening a gas path past the base just lets hot gas abrade the boolit sides and it only needs to be a few molecules wide.

[Rockchucker]

Sorry wrong thread

[243winxb]

Lymans statemen
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore. What are your thoughts on the amount of Tin needed in an Alloy?:?: Factory target loads have little to no tin with 2% antimony. Some of the higher velocity ones have 6% antimony & 2% Tin. http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2002/peters.htm What effect does water dropping have on the Tin.:?: I feel the Tin might fail to preform correctly as in Lymans statement, if bullets are dropped from the mould into the water. Total guess. The Tin would seem to work correctly when using other methods. Making lead wire for swaging. Oven Treat/Water Drop and Air Cool. The tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore. The Lyman #2 Alloy contains 5%Antimony 5% Tin. Commercial casters now use the" New Lyman #2" 6% antimony/2%Tin. Is 2% or 5% Tin what keeps our Magnum Revolvers from leading, or is a super hard alloy all that is needed, No Tin? :?: And yes, i am to old and lazy to do my own testing. [smilie=l: :coffeecom

[Char-Gar]

03lover.. The problem, at least from my point of view, with your original post, was I misread your purpose in making the post.

I thought you were a fellow who was looking for some help in dealing with your leading problems and making cast bullets work for you in your sixguns. My reply was to that kind of question. I am always willing to give a new caster some help if asked for.

Subsequent post lead me to believe, you were interested in starting a discussion on the various theories of you post. I would not have replies to that post. There is nothing wrong with those kinds of threads as we have many of them. They just don't interest me, as most often turn into some level of conflict over conflicting opinions, theories and experiences.

So I will eat the ofal on this one and fess up I "misconscrewed" the intent and purpose of your post. That is not your fault.

That aside, I stick by everything I said as it relates to cast bullets, the human race and life in general.

Shooting bullets larger than throat size is just a way around sizing bullets in multiple sixguns with multiple charge hole throat diameters to fit each sixgun. That along won't cure your leading problem unless the temper of your alloy is correct to start with as 44man said. It will cure any undersize bullet issue, providing the charge hole throat diameter is larger than the barrel groove diameter. If it is the other way around, all bets are off. The oversize bullet will not shear but swage down for a custom fit in the individual charge hole throat.

Best of luck in life and shooting.

[03lover]

243winxb,

When I read your response about the flame cutting of the top strap, I missed the fact it was a 357 Maximum. That cartridge caused sevier flame cutting with a modest amount of shooting. I need to clarify what I think you intended to say about Ruger stoped making the Blackhawk. Actually Ruger quite producing the Blackhawk in the 357 Maximum caliber. They still manufacture the Blackhawk in several models.

[Bass Ackward]

The big thing on this board particularly for handguns is to stop leading. If it doesn't affect accuracy I ask why?

I still think that there are techniques that probably do better than others, mostly depends on how you shoot, but not for me. And no one defines how they intend to shoot. So I will take a stab at it cause I don't much care who is offended.

Unfortunately, I believe that a handgun is a handgun. Mine mostly have 4" to 7 1/2" barrels and everything has opens.

With that, I can only do 2" at 50 yards reliably which is my standard. I can pretty much do that from bags or off hand. And I can do that with everything from pure lead to water dropped bullets but I seldom use the latter very often. Depends on design.

Because handguns were meant to be shot like handguns, virtually everything will lead eventually. They call that fouling. I have loads that work from a clean or unfouled barrel, and I have loads that work better after everything has mucked up. You want accuracy after leading, work up your loads leaded!

After I have tried the entire gambit here I have come to one conclusion. There are no facts to cast. Proof still is on the target. I can usually take everything that is said here and mimic my accuracy standard from LLA to magnum primers. When I finish shooting, sometimes I am leaded, sometimes not. But shoot fast enough or hot enough and you will eventually lead and need to know how to shoot fouled or leaded unless you want to stop and clean.

To me, leading isn't always a bad thing. 22LRs have shot for years up to 1250 fps with pure lead and I have never seen one that ain't leaded after a brick or four. Especially my MDl 617. She's a dirty girl. That one will do 1" at 50 after she has been abused.

[44man]

Lymans statemen What are your thoughts on the amount of Tin needed in an Alloy?:?: Factory target loads have little to no tin with 2% antimony. Some of the higher velocity ones have 6% antimony & 2% Tin. http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2002/peters.htm What effect does water dropping have on the Tin.:?: I feel the Tin might fail to preform correctly as in Lymans statement, if bullets are dropped from the mould into the water. Total guess. The Tin would seem to work correctly when using other methods. Making lead wire for swaging. Oven Treat/Water Drop and Air Cool. The tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore. The Lyman #2 Alloy contains 5%Antimony 5% Tin. Commercial casters now use the" New Lyman #2" 6% antimony/2%Tin. Is 2% or 5% Tin what keeps our Magnum Revolvers from leading, or is a super hard alloy all that is needed, No Tin? :?: And yes, i am to old and lazy to do my own testing. [smilie=l: :coffeecom
Only enough tin is needed to allow the antimony and lead to form a good alloy. I consider tin the GLUE. Once alloyed it does not separate. Think of lead and antimony as solder on aluminum. Add tin and it is like solder on brass.
Without the tin the antimony does not bind good to lead and lead and or antimony can rub off too easy. Toss in a trace of arsenic and it will change the molecules and helps hold things in place when the metal is quenched. What we try to do is keep the molecules in the same position as they were when molten by cooling fast, alignment in the metal so to speak.
Tin does not harden when quenched nor does it add enough hardness to lead to be worth having over 2%. It does make a lead alloy or even pure lead flow better. That is why it is used with pure when casting those large BPCR boolits.
I don't know that much about metals but I do not think tin forms around the lead and antimony, the molucules, electrons are mixed to form a lattice.
We need a metallurgical engineer to explain it to us.
I have to wonder if too much tin is bad with too many free electrons with no more lead and antimony to bind to.

[03lover]

Chargar,

I understand how easy it is to read something and miss the meaning of what is being requested. It has been said many times that many of us can have different though processes and different methods of solving problems.

I to have misunderstood some of the statments made in this forum and I appoligize for that.

Yes, my original post was directed at my desire to look for help finding a bullet hardness, velocity and pressure that would prevent the leading issue with my cast bullets, thinking that was the cause of my leading problems. Most of the bullets I am presently using were cast three to five years ago, and that means they are now somewhat softer that they were weeks after casting. I suspected the hardness of these bullets was my problem, being too soft for the loads I was using. The responses raised questions that when answered got us side tracked from what I was looking for.

My nature is to say or write what I feel or know to be fact about the shooting and reloading game, assuming it will be accepted or rejected without more information. I fire many thousands of rounds of test loads every year. In fact, about 90% of my shooting, handgun and rifle is load testing. I have drawer files full of all the targets fired including my notes that pertain to all those tests. I always hope I don't have to take up pages of space with targets and notes to support what I say. I guess that doesn't work well for some of us.

NOW FOR AN UPDATE OF MY LEADING PROBLEM

Yesterday, my shooting buddy and I were doing some more load testing. I had an opportunity to shoot four rounds of a load he was shooting in his S & W. That four rounds of a pretty hot cast bullet load leaded my Ruger Blackhawk quite heavily yet his S & W after (46) rounds had no lead in the barrel.

That indicates to me, my leading problem is not necessarily a bullet hardness problem, but it sure points to a bore condition problem. My buddy's S & W bore has been lapped to an unbelievable mirror finish. Now I have to take some time to do some serious lapping before any more cast bullet testing in my two 357 magnums.

I hope the snow of winter holds off long enough for me to Lap these bores and continue the testing. Southern Minnesota can get nasty by Thanksgiving. Some winter winds drift the snow enough that I can't get to my shooting range 300 yards from the house even with a tractor and chains. Please, I don't need suggestions that I need a larger tractor. Ha Ha. I woud rather spend my $$$ on shooting supplies.

Give me some time to work this problem out.

[Char-Gar]

03lover... Indeed there are some few hanguns with barrels containing micro-machine-hickies that will lead in spite of all efforts to stop it by handloading. I have had a few of them.

I have never lapped a barrel but I have cured a few of these troublesome tubes by polishing them. Some years back I read this in some gun magazine. I don't remember who wrote it but it does work.

1. Load up 200 rounds of full snort loads with jacketed bullets (I use the cheap bulk bullets).
2. Fire them as fast as you can load, aim, eject and reload.
3. Wearing gloves (the thing is very hot) open the cylinder and with a new bronze brush give it 200 fore and after stokes with Shooter Choice or some other good solvent that works on metal fouling as well as powder. Do this as soon as the last round is fired.
4. Take the pistol home, remove the cylinder and catch it in the padded jaws of a vise.
5. Use a rod and tight fitting patches coated with Semi-Chrome or Flitz metal polish and work the bore over until you arms feel like they will fall off. Takes about an hour for me.
6. Clean the bore with a good solvent.. I use acetone or grain alchol.

YOu now have a bore that is free of micro-burrs, shines like a mirror, doesn't lead and is a snap to clean.

With the price of jacketed bullets these days, it might be wiser to lap the barrel, but lapping will change some dimensions and I just have not done it. I have never found it necessary as the problem barrels have yielded to the above method.

Snow? What is that? My yard is filled with palm trees and parrots. We are having cold snap and the temp only got up to 82 this afternoon.

Good luck.. Charles

[03lover]

Chargar,

I can see where the method you have described would work. At todays prices for even bulk jacketed bullets, I will go with the lapping.

My leading problem is pretty much the same in both my Ruger Blackhawk and Ruger Security Six. The Blackhawk slugs at .3582 with the eight groove barrel. That concerns me some, because it is already on the large side. The bore shows a lot of the reaming marks, both of the lands and in the grooves. This is about the poorest condition bore for machining marks as I have ever seen. Yet the leading always starts just forward of the forcing cone and it never leads more that 1-1/2" into the bore. The bore constriction is very minimal so I will start by a little lapping to speed up the process, followed by a good polishing. I will probably have to cast bullets larger for the Blackhawk to fit the bore or stay with a little softer bullet and the chamber throats may need some attention also. This gun is turning out to be more work than I expected.

The Ruger Security Six slugs at .3565" with a five groove barrel. I had to use ring gages to get an accurate reading due to the odd number of grooves. The bore is much smoother than the Blackhawk and whatever lapping I do with this one will not be a concern about enlarging the bore size.

It will probably be a few weeks before I can say for sure where I am at with these two revolvers. My target range permit issued by the local game warden will expire Friday, at midnight. The late deer season starts Saturday, so I have to wait until two days after the late season ends before I can resume my shooting. I can deal with the cold weather because I can heat my enclosed shooting bench if I have to. It is the snow that can make it difficult, but that shouldn't be a problem for awhile.

[runfiverun]

higher antimonial boolits have enough abrasiveness in them to hekp smooth a bbl also the antimony tends to hang off the boolit with little barbs or tendrils and they are abrasive.
tin likes lead but it loves antimony so much so that if you use more tin than antimony in an alloy the tin will try to cling to the antimony as the alloy cools but since there is more of it it is torn away but too late to bond with the lead sufficiently and you wind up with spots of tin surrounded by soft spots of pure lead.
as far as alloyed and not treated boolits go they do not soften with age they will harden to a point and remain that same hardness. the only way they will change is if they oxidize, then the oxides are much harder [about 35 bhn iirc]
tin alloyed with antimony in an alloy will remain as SbSn in that alloy. except that tin will oxidize out much faster than antimony,hence we flux and protect our pots from oxygen.
a balanced alloy of say 2-2-96 will have a toughness [maleability] about it and resist shattering [breaking up on impact] much better than one of say 2-6 will.
this is why a lot of guys do so well with ww's and 2% tin and other guys that rely on ww's alone have different views about their loads.
so is tin needed??
tin is also a wetting device in lead alloys especially with antimony the tin allows the alloy to flow through the antimonial tendrils [crystals however you view them] formed on the outside of the boolit as it is poured and can give better fill out in a difficult mold at lower mold temps.

[David2011]

Interesting read! Chargar got me to think about my boolits for steel plate matches. I shoot a .45 ACP 1911 with a nominal 200 gr SWC at about 640-650 fps using 3.7 grains of Winchester Super Target for steel matches. Recoil is very mild but the gun has to be set up to shoot such a light load. I've always used my standard 1/2 lb Monoype to 20 lb WW alloy. That calculates out to about .46% tin, 3.39% Antimony and 96.15% lead. I get very little leading and shoot the same alloy in my IPSC .40 S&W at about 950 fps using 4.7 grains of Titegroup. I can't recommend this load to ANYONE beause I size my .40 boolits to .400 instead of .401. I loaded some commercial 180 gr boolits sized .401 recently and the velocity jumped to about 1050 fps. Primers showed more pressure than with my .400 boolits but were not seriously flattened. I though it was recoiling harder than usual! I got Magma to make me a .400 sizing die because the boolits I sized to .401 didn't pass a Dillon chamber gauge. Most rounds that don't pass the Dillon gage still load and shoot OK but I don't use them at matches. They get reserved for practice. The gun is an STI Edge using an STI barrel.

I could just as well be blending WW and straight lead to cast the .45 boolits and save the monotype for when it's really needed. Vanity may be a problem, though. I'll put the appearance of my cast boolits up against any commercial boolit. The monotype makes them fill the mold beautifully, picking up every machining mark in the mold. I don't frop them in water- too time consuming. Shooting IPSC I can easily need 1000 to 2500 per month. Thank goodness it's casting season soon. I'll give the 50/50 WW and lead a try in my steel plate loads. That's a good way to use some of the straight lead that's accumulated.

I'll be casting for higher velocities soon. Just tonight I fitted a barrel to a receiver and chambered it in .375 H&H. I'm building it for cast boolits. The new website has a nice page in the .375 H&H with cast boolits. The 250 gr boolit at about 1700 fps sounds perfect.

I am constantly learning here!

David

[Char-Gar]

David... My experience tells me that super hard alloys like monotype and linotype are not needed in the 45 ACP round at any speed, much less cream puff target loads.

This in spite of the standard avise that bullets for the autopistol should be hard to grip the shallow rifling. I first read this written by Elmer Keith and repeated often by others.

I was deep into Bullseye shooting in 1963 when Speer first came out with their 200 grain SWC bullet for the 45 Auto pistol. It was butter soft and I didn't think it would work well. The bullet turned out to be very accurate in my Colt Gold Cup and didn't lead any more than my bullets cast from very hard alloy. Finding time for casting precious I bought 5,000 of them and was very happy.

Since that time I take the mantra of hard bullets in the autopistol with a grain of salt.

air cooled wheel weight is plenty hard for any cast bullet in the 45 Autopistol or any of the sixguns chambered for the round.

Linotype and monotype makes good target bullets for rifles. But bear in mind when using any high antimony alloy that the antimony chrystals are very hard and abrasive and will wear a barrel faster than an alloy with lower antimony content. I get this from Felix and he is a pretty credible source for science stuff.

[Bret4207]

Excellent thread gents, the lack of a reliable computer is keeping me from taking part, so I'll m,ake this short

03lover- IMO a lot of your issues can still be size related. Have you checked to see if your boolits are damaged during seating? It's entirely possible to accidentally size a "waist" onto a boolit suring seating or crimpng if you use one.

Theres a lot of good info here. Well done guys.,

[03lover]

Bret4207,

Your point is well taken and I had addressed that early on in my reloading. With the bores, chamber throats and boolits all at proper size and fit plus the issue you have mentioned clearly not an issue, I have had to consider all the information from this thread and combine that with what I see in the two 357 magnum Rugers I am working with. Then I add in the fact that my shooting buddies S&W can fired everything from soft swaged to moderately hard cast at load levels that are excessive and flatten primers on occasion, without a trace of lead in the bore. I even fired just four round of a load that was too hot to be accurate in his S&W but didn't lead. When I fired those four rounds in one of the Rugers, it leaded like crazy. Only four rounds.

Inspection of the S&W bore showed a bore so smooth and shiny, it almost blinded me. I had checked my Rugers and the machining marks didn't look like they were bad enough to be the problem, especially when I considered the leading was never more than about one inch into the bore. That left only one thing to be the cause of the problem. The bore constriction caused by the tight fit of the barrel where it is screwed into the frame. I had slugged for that and didn't think it was bad enough to be the cause of my leading. Now I am convinced I was wrong about the bore constriction and plan to lap it out before any more serious load testing.

[Bret4207]

No doubt there is a fit issue in play. It very well could be the frame constricting the barrel. Many folks have fire lapped the constriction out. Use lead alloy and low speeds for that as it reportedly will only affect the constriction. BArrel finish will have some effect on leading, but I've seen some real sewer pipe looking barrels shoot clean and accurately.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Having read the entire thread, my vote is with following the advice of Chargar, BobS and Bret4207, in that order. Should resolve your issues nicely.

Regards,

Dave