Arrghhh... my Star is giving me fits!! *$*%# !!

[Russel Nash]

Well, I finally got around to mixing some homemade lube and trying, again, this new-ish Star lube sizer.

Arggh...what an aggravating experience. [smilie=b:

I am trying to lube a 9mm 147grain boolit dropped from a Lyman four banger mould. It looks like this:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/includes/img/lyman/bulletcasting/356637.jpg

I thought I had the timing correct with height of the punch before, and I wrote down that measurement. 1.2"

Oooppss....let me back up a little bit. I have the Star heater base and the pneumatic plunger which puts pressure on the lube.

So anyway, I have the metal probe of the meat thermometer stuck into the back of the heater base and I have the air compressor hose hooked up to the pneumatic "ram".

I would get lube on the nose of the boolit. I would adjust the punch by screwing it in. Then I would get lube on back end, the beveled base of the boolit. Then I would screw the punch back out.

I tried tinkering with the air pressure. I dialed that way back. Then I dialed back on the temperature. The air gauge was reading just 10 psi. The meat thermometer varied between 120 and 128 degrees F.

I would even get lube to squirt out of the top of the die and coat the punch.

I took the die out of the lube sizer and melted the shot out of it. Then I plugged a different set of holes.

Same problem...lube everywhere... on the nose.... on the "heel".... and not consistently filling the groove.

Then when I had the die out, I actually pulled down on the handle while looking in the hole where the die goes. Jeesh.... it sure does squirt out a lot of lube. :shock:

Hmmn.... I might be onto something there.

Then I noticed, even with the handle in the up position, lube was stil squirting out the hole. It kinda reminded me of this:

http://www.ok4kids.com.au/images/playdoh.jpg

Sure enough, if I would go do something else for a few a minutes I would come back to find my boolit bin partially filled with strings of lube.

Arrghh....

So I got to ask:

Does your Star suffer from lube run on?

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to mention, I went all the back to square one and actually read the last page of the Star manual about actually lining up the boolit's groove with one of the open or clear lube holes in the die, then measuring down (I used the end of my dial calipers). Then I pushed the boolit into the die gingerly, measuring again with the rear end of my dial calipers. Once I got close, then I inserted the die into the Star and screwed the punch in. Again, gingerly I would lower the handle and screw in the punch until it just kissed the top of the boolit. Then I raise the handle all the way, and then re-measured the gap from the bottom of the punch to the top of the die. 1.26" .... which was real close to my original measurement of 1.2"

And since I was thinking that with each press of the handle, that it squirted out way too much lube, I took out part # S114, which is the 2" long 3/8" diameter rod with the two hex nuts screwed into each end. It is called the Fulcrum Lever Push Rod Assembly. It presses against part # S112, the Fulcrum Lever. I took the hex nuts out of S114, hoping that the Fulcrum Lever wouldn't squish the piston so much and squirt so much lube out with each complete cycle of the handle.

Hmmn... that didn't seem to work all that well, so I replaced one of the hex nuts. I was still back to the same problem of lube everywhere. Then I took off the Fulcrum Lever completely since the spring still looked slightly compressed. Sure enough , the pump pluger came out a little bit. But I still had the lube run on problem

Arrgghh.....:killingpc

So....before I pull all my hair out... please give me some advice. HELP! :groner:

[runfiverun]

turn down the heat.

[Russel Nash]

But...but... it's already only at 120*F....:?::?::?:

I will give it a try... but only because it might keep me from pulling all my hair out.

Hmmn... I guess this will be my non-summer lube recipe. :groner:

[45 2.1]

I've seen one that did the same thing. Solution was to sell the ornery cranky thing. Solution worked well to.

[garandsrus]

Russel,

The star shouldn't pump out lube until you pull the handle and activate the plunger. If it is, either the pressure is too high, the heat too high, or both.

John

[lathesmith]

As long as lube is coming out of that thing while you are doing nothing, it won't work. Like John says, it's a combination of too much pressure and/or too much heat, it's that simple. Since it is acting like a play-doh machine, it makes me wonder if something may be stuck inside the sizer somewhere. the whole idea of the lube pump is to cut off the flow of lube until the precise moment it's needed.

Is your home-made lube more like 50/50 or hard lube? My Star works fine down to 50 degrees in the garage with 50/50 with NO heat at all; of course, with harder lube you will need some heat.

Maybe a few more of the really experienced gurus will jump in here, it seems like I saw a thread like this very recently about the Star.

lathesmith

[runfiverun]

different lubes need different heat/pressures to work.
the more "plastic" types magma's, jakes. need more heat less pressure.
the more b-wax types can use less heat but more pressure to work properly.
when i initially switched from magmas paraffin to jakes ceresin type the two hated each other and for a whille i got a dry hard powdery substance till i cleaned all of the magma's out then the jakes worked fine.
except i left the heat in the same place and had lube just oozing from the pores of the machine for a while.
i just turned the heat waay down and tempered it till it was happy.
i still have the old marks from the other lubes i've used written on the heater and look down and see i now have the temp at almost half what i had the plastic set on but the pressure is closer to 70 than the previous 40.
if i let the heat get up there a bit i will get lube on the nose of the boolit and have to temper the pressure back till i can get the heat down.
you wanna feel the pressure on the handle as it lets the lube through the holes and brings the handle to a stop when the grooves are full.
if the handle whooshes to the bottom of the stroke you didn't push any lube out and might just be empty or hitting an airpocket.
you learn to feel whats happening with a star even when doing 800 or so an hour.

[Edubya]

Russ, you'll look back and laugh at your efforts in the near future.
My (Lar's) Carnuba Red runs fine at just over body temperature through both Stars.
Hang in there brother.
EW

[dragonrider]

I have never used a heater with my Star, the lube I use does not need it, but it does sound as though you are using too much heat. I would try somewhere around 90 degrees. Another thing, are your boolits round, are they sizing completely all around the surface leaving no place for the lube to squirt out? I had he same problem when I first started working with my Star, I became so frustrated I gave up on it for years, stuffed it under the bench. I finaly got it going and have retired my Lyman. I am saying don't give up on it, when you get it worked out it will be worth it.

[jsizemore]

I'm using Lar's Carnuba Red. I got one of those digital meat thermometers with the probe from Wal mart. I put the end of the probe under the spring for the pump. It works perfect at 88deg F. At 90deg there would be a pinhead size drop of lube at the nose and base of each bullet. When I got an incomplete fillout of the lube groove, I screwed the handle down 1 turn and it was good for about 10-12 boolits. Good luck.

[870TC]

I have had the same issues, nothing but trial and error to find the right heat/pressure combination. Also, what works for one person doesn't always work for the next. For Magma's hard lube I use less heat and 80-100 lbs pressure, for LBT I use more heat and less than half that pressure. Which is just opposite of what runfiverun has found works for him.

[Dennis Eugene]

I agree 120 degrees sounds like way to much heat to me. Dennis

[Springfield]

Most lubes melt at 130-150, so it sounds way too hot. I run mine about 80 Deg and 150 lbs of pressure with my beeswax based BP lube. On a hotday I don't need to heat it at all.

[HeavyMetal]

Lubes to hot! Turn it down until you get into the mid 90's and then back off the air pressure

[Russel Nash]

Okay, if there is adjustment left in the screw adjuster on the Star heater base, I will crank it down to say 90 * F.

For what it is worth, this lube is a concoction of :

1 pound of beeswax

1/2 pound of paraffin

2 heaping tablespoons of Johnson Paste Wax

and whole bunch of candle dye.

[Cherokee]

I feel your pain. I have similar issues with my Star some time. Does sound like you have too much heat - done that myself. Just did a bunch of 45 ACP TC bullets and got light lube on nose ogive: Any lower heat and lube would not flow, any less pressure and lube would not flow. So, I just live with the lube on the bullet ogive. Sometime it goes great, same heat setting and less pressure.

Used the last of my Thompson Red Angel on that batch and will be using Lars Red Carnuba from now own. Sounds like it will want less heat - another learning opportunity.

[BossHoss]

I am seeing lube coming out of the hole in the casting without a die when ever I pressurize more than a half turn.

Is it (the valve ) supposed to make a solid seal...i pull the lever and lube comes out faster like i would expect it to.

I am quessing here, but that valve probably is not a very tight seal, right? so if the lube is too warm it will push past the valve , even in the closed position? eh?

Or has my casting or valve got a piece of crud or a damaged seat?

[Tumble Bug]

Well.............. I think that every thing that needs to be said has already been said...... but.............
some times saying the "same thing" a different way helps someone understand better. So here's my
shot at saying the same thing a different way..............

First, I experienced the same thing you did when I first set up my Star. I had assumed that because I had a heater on my machine it needed some heat ........ so off the top of my head I dialed some in. I assumed that because I had a pressure adjustment I needed some pressure so I dialed some in.

I then set out lubing bullets and made a heck of a mess. I had too much heat and too much pressure.

So.............. I started over.......... rather than starting out high and turning it down..............
I learned to start out low and turn it up.

I started out with no heat and minimum pressure......... I gradually inched things up until it worked!
I don't have the air pressure system so I can't recommend a pressure but I eventually ended up with moderately high pressure and minimum heat.

Keep in mind that cold shop environments and hard lube do require more heat than warm shop environments and soft lube.

Make your adjustments in very small increments. Eventually you will find the "sweet spot" and when you do, you'll be glad you got your Star.

Hope that helps.

[BossHoss]

I understand the idiom of ratcheting up the controls, i have had major success with this machine first time i used it. I have perused every thread.

Including one with a video of a member pressurizing at 100 psi to prove a point....with no leakage.

I would like to SEE the valve seat...is it like a car engine valve seat...bevel ground and fitted to a seat, just a pin in a hole with a relief hole beyond it....etc..

the blowup diagram on magma leaves a lot to be desired in this case.

Mine is under pressure from the pump lever all the time, no slop. So, is it partially open?

Actually, the real question is: How well is it SUPPOSED to seal in the static position? Maybe this is a question for Magma, eh?

I would give a thumbs up to someone who could provide a pic of what one looks like disassembled. Without knowing what the animal looks like, discussing this any farther is pointless. lol.

I knew I should have skipped over the Ford (Star) , and bought a Lincoln (Ballisti-cast). I was going to buy a Ballisti-cast first, so, if I can't get this question answered...I will order the Ballisti-cast next week, and put this leak-o-matic on evilbay....i could not live with myself to sell it to a member here knowing that it leaks when it is not supposed to. If it is by design...then it can go on Swap and Sell.

[btroj]

I have had similar issues. Once I figured out that more pressure and less hear worked I got a lot fewer problems.

[Russel Nash]

let me give you my NON-update update.

I have been so busy with work this year that I hardly had any time to shoot much cast and lube-size boolits and then reload them.

I broke some parts on my Dillon 650 and it has basically had its feet in the stirrups for at least four months now. I have the parts in to fix it. But I have just been going to Wally World to pick up a box or two of Winchester White Box 9mm on my way to USPSA and IDPA matches.

Ya, know, that saying "misery loves company".

well, I am glad I am not the only one to have the exact same problem....so it's not just me.

I did buy some Rooster red lube from MidwayUSA. I can't remember if I tried that already or not.

If or when I finally get back to tinkering with it, if it still has the lube run on problem, I will probably go with lathesmith to have him make me some dies that actually match my boolit's lube groove dimensions as one last ditch effort to fix it.

Then after that...it is going back to Magma.
:mad:

[BossHoss]

Couple of Things,

I am not pooh poohing Stars, I wanted since the first time i went to use my Lyman and read about one. Along with Ballisti-cast.

I just need to know more about the animal, actually all about it. The pre-reading here , months of it, is invaluable. A veritable NecroMonicon / Compendium of casting.

I am sure I can + either figure out the run on problem, or get Magma to explain it, or fix it.

If it is by design/normal that it flows lube under certain conditions, pump valve closed, ok.

Plenty of you use them, that's why I have one.

Heck, I just got another load of free lead , I got boolits to make. LOL.

[Tumble Bug]

BossHoss:

When I first started out with too much heat and too much pressure, my Star leaked in places I didn't
know it could leak in. I thought I'd blown a gasket or something. I too studied the exploded
parts diagram just to find out there weren't gaskets in the places where it was leaking. That's
when my hydraulics experience came to mind......... hot oil leaks more than cold oil.
I knew then I had way too much heat.

I've got a rule of thumb that could help. Keep in mind that "rules of thumb" are not always 100%
correct but they are correct most of the time.

So here's mine: If you're in a toasty warm shop and
you are using soft lube you probably don't need any heat. If you're in a toasty warm shop and you
are using hard lube you'll probably need some (but not a lot) of heat just to get the hard stuff to
flow a "little bit' and act like soft lube.

If you are in a cold shop and using soft lube you may need just a little heat to get the lube up to
70 degrees (plus or minus). If you are in a cold shop and using Hard lube, then you'll need more heat but just enough to get the hard lube to flow like 70 degree soft lube.

If you're lube is freely flowing (and leaking), the heat is way way way too hot. The leak will stop
when the excess heat is gone.

Hope this helps.

Star lube sizers (and other brands as well) were being used a long time before lube heaters hit the market.

[Tumble Bug]

BossHoss:

When I first started out with too much heat and too much pressure, my Star leaked in places I didn't
know it could leak in. I thought I'd blown a gasket or something. I too studied the exploded
parts diagram just to find out there weren't gaskets in the places where it was leaking. That's
when my hydraulics experience came to mind......... hot oil leaks more than cold oil.
I knew then I had way too much heat.

I've got a rule of thumb that could help. Keep in mind that "rules of thumb" are not always 100%
correct but they are correct most of the time.

So here's mine: If you're in a toasty warm shop and
you are using soft lube you probably don't need any heat. If you're in a toasty warm shop and you
are using hard lube you'll probably need some (but not a lot) of heat just to get the hard stuff to
flow a "little bit' and act like soft lube.

If you are in a cold shop and using soft lube you may need just a little heat to get the lube up to
70 degrees (plus or minus). If you are in a cold shop and using Hard lube, then you'll need more heat but just enough to get the hard lube to flow like 70 degree soft lube.

If you're lube is freely flowing (and leaking), the heat is way way way too hot. The leak will stop
when the excess heat is gone.

Hope this helps.

Star lube sizers (and other brands as well) were being used a long time before lube heaters hit the market.

[BossHoss]

BossHoss:

When I first started out with too much heat and too much pressure, my Star leaked in places I didn't
know it could leak in. I thought I'd blown a gasket or something. I too studied the exploded
parts diagram just to find out there weren't gaskets in the places where it was leaking. That's
when my hydraulics experience came to mind......... hot oil leaks more than cold oil.
I knew then I had way too much heat.

I've got a rule of thumb that could help. Keep in mind that "rules of thumb" are not always 100%
correct but they are correct most of the time.

So here's mine: If you're in a toasty warm shop and
you are using soft lube you probably don't need any heat. If you're in a toasty warm shop and you
are using hard lube you'll probably need some (but not a lot) of heat just to get the hard stuff to
flow a "little bit' and act like soft lube.

If you are in a cold shop and using soft lube you may need just a little heat to get the lube up to
70 degrees (plus or minus). If you are in a cold shop and using Hard lube, then you'll need more heat but just enough to get the hard lube to flow like 70 degree soft lube.

If you're lube is freely flowing (and leaking), the heat is way way way too hot. The leak will stop
when the excess heat is gone.

Hope this helps.

Star lube sizers (and other brands as well) were being used a long time before lube heaters hit the market.


See, what blew my mind was it worked fine for the 452389's blasted through it..not a hiccup. Change boolits, same die same spacing , different lube...went from What was in it when i got it Blue Angel or thunder blue,,,to Carnuba Red...mess made...my bad.

This is not a real valve , just a helper pump that can be blown past with the right viscosity and pressure. The trick is to keep the lube congealed enough not to leak under feed pressure. And only deliver when "helped" by the pump plunger.

Hence it will leak easier when the die is out, larger orifice.

Sheesh, ....

LOL. I posted this in a pm to Nash,



I think it is possible to blow past the punp valve with too much pressure and heat. It is not a valve seat like a flathead eight, lol.

Started out by taking the die out,.,,turning on heater to the lowest point it would turn on.

not enough heat to refill pump and make pump return at a rate over a snail's pace. just enough pressure to fill the pump...and enough heat after 20min of stabilizing time to warm the entire sizer, so the pump would return in .5 to .75 secs , and it would only pump when requested.

put in the die , let it warm, and made sure i had punch adjusted so the bottom holes barely engaged the bottom of the top groove of the boolit....no more mess.

if the boolit was seated to deeply, leakage would occur.

whew, tired from all this typing.

Wouldlike to know the answer to the 64 dollar question though>>?? How tight is the valve seal...if it seals at all and just goes static open to the resivoir , expecting the lube not to run past it? Whew.


Lol. Hobbies. Lol. Work. Frustration, triumph, grin, want more.

I got boolits to make.

[Tumble Bug]

I took another look at the exploded parts diagram to find this valve that you have been
speaking of. I did not see any such valve either in the drawing or in the parts description. I do see the S124 piston plunger. From the looks of the drawing it appears that plug S126 covers (what I assume to be) a cross drilling into the lube reservoir. When the piston plunger S124 is pushed forward enough by the linkage S112, it will move past the cross drilling, thereby blocking it off so that lube cannot flow back into the reservoir. As the plunger continues to move forward the forced lube has no where else to go except into die and subsequently to the lube groove of the bullet.

When the linkage S112 releases pressure on the pump plunger S124 the spring S125 retracts the plunger thus uncovering the cross drilling to the reservoir. At that point all three chambers are open (connected) together. Lube under pressure from the spring plunger S105 or air cylinder can then freely flow into the piston chamber and also into the die. There is nothing there to prevent the flow into the die except of course there should always be a bullet in the die. If you were to remove the bullet from the die the lube would flow thru the die and into the now open center of the die.

This explains why leakage can be seen flowing into the die chamber when the die is removed and when the heater is on ("heater on" creates pressure due to expansion of the lube) and/or when there is pressure in the reservoir chamber. The colder the lube, the less leakage and the hotter the lube the greater the leakage into the die chamber.

Hope this helps. If I have left some things unanswered......... I'd be glad to try again.

Tumble Bug

[Tumble Bug]

I probably need to clarify a statement that I made in a earlier post.

"If you're lube is freely flowing (and leaking), the heat is way way way too hot. The leak will stop when the excess heat is gone".

The first time I tried using my Star I got all of the adjustments all out of whack. I had the
lube so hot (I'm embarrassed to tell you this) I had lube leaking out the back of the piston pump chamber. Lube was leaking out the back of the machine. So my earlier statement (see above) was in reference to that.

T. B.

[Springfield]

To answer our question, lube will indeed leak past the plunger piston when under pressure. When removing dies back off on the lube pressure screw and you won't have any leakage problems. If this is too much work for you I will give you 100.00 for your Star as money towards your Ballisticast, and mount it next to my other 3. This is a real offer, I love my Stars.

[BossHoss]

See, I just needed to know if it was a "Valve"...or just a helper plunger.

No biggie, knowing the machines internals, helps understand the machine.

Viscosity and pressure in a delicate , oh so delicate balance...

I have tamed the beast, (kitty kat actually), and wont make a mess of my boolits ever again. I am glad my first experience was a good one, because it made me troubleshoot my problems the second time I used it. It worked so well the first time, I thought I broke it, the second time....

Nope, just mis-adjusted it, and it blew my mind when I took it apart and looked down the rabbit hole.....lol.

[HATCH]

Do you have some of the holes blocked in the die??

You should have the top and bottom row of holes blocked leaving just the middle row.
I run magma brand lube @ 115 F and 100 psi.
Yes, with NO boolit in the die lube will come out. But once the first boolit gets "stuck" in there everything work as designed.
Yes, I know that I could turn down the pressure but if it works for me why change it.

[BossHoss]

I have been lubing 452460's all afternoon. Double groove 200gn 45acp SWC.

Works like a charm.

My Star 452 has only two rows, spaced .125...it seems to be tailor made for all thre 45's i have been sizing. 45239, 452460, and Lee 454 255 that drops at .453

all double groove.

will be doing 38s and 44s next week. Sure wish i could have gotten the homebrew air to work....cant seem to seal the top part..air always leaks past.

but, 10 boolits, half a turn on the screw ain't so bad.

[Russel Nash]

Thanks for all the replies fellas!

At one point, I did drill a hole in my heater base, just so far deep and a big enough diameter to take the probe from a digital meat thermometer. No, it did not hit the heating element.

So the next time I get to tinkering around with the Star I will have the heat on the lowest setting for like 20 minutes, and see what the digital thermometer says is the temp...try to crank a few boolits through...then if I have to, I will edge the heat adjuster up a bit, wait 20 minutes for it to stabilize, see what the meat thermometer says, crank some more boolits through...rinse....repeat...etc. all while keeping the pressure the same.

[BossHoss]

Nash, that is exactly how to do it.....as soon as my pump returns almost immediately I know I am at the right viscosity for the lube. Carnuba Red gets runny pretty quick. I am about 10 O'clock on the magma heater control. And yest after 20 min , the entire sizer is warm, and it goes smoothly. Big mistake to try to rush heating it up. lol.

[btroj]

I don't think of it as a heater but rather as a warmer. I don't have a thermometer n my "heater" base but I bet it doesn't get over 95 to 100 degrees. You need the lube to be softer so it will flow under pressure but don't want it even close to being melted.
I have had a huge mess with some lubes, none with others. Some lines seem to have a wider "plastic" range where they work well, others seem to go from hard to liquid in a few degrees.

I find that more pressure, less heat is the usual answer to lube all over. I still get some excess lune from my 359 sizer. I plan to get a die with just 1 row of holes so I can be sure no lube gets where I don't want it.

Bosshoss is right, once the pump returns quickly to its start point you are good to go. Get e heat to just that point and old it there. Bad thing is the heaters want to keep heating. I have a dimmer on mine and it needs far different settings for different lubes.

[Russel Nash]

My heater came from Star/Magma.

It is basically a block of aluminum with a few holes drilled in it, and some sort of thermostat like control attached to it. It's been such a long while since I tinkered with it, so I am not for sure about this, but just like my RCBS pot, it too has a light. When the thermostat kicks on, it lights up. When the thermostat shuts off, the light goes on.

Thanks for all the replies fellas!