last ditch poor man's sniper rifle

[dualsport]

Just checking, anybody else here ever think of their cast bullet rifles as a last ditch end of the world as we know it sniper rifle? Just curious. The one I'm working on is based on a Ishapore 7.62. Got a great idea here for a scope base made from angle iron, how cheap is that? I don't want to start a scope blog, but I plan to put a cheap scope on it. CHEAP is the theme. If I can bring myself to chop up one of my Mausers I'd like to find a 7.62 barrel, Cheap. Am I a nut? Or at least am I the only nut?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
No you are not NUTS ... your the basic American Tinkerer who wants to turn his property into something more useful "As he sees it needed".
I make my own springs, peep sights, screws, stocks & whatever if the bug bites me about doing it. If I had a lathe and a mill there would be hardly nothing to stop me from building my own everything. Well time would be the great interferrer.
I view all my rifles & handguns the same. I want them to be as accurate with my cast loads as I can make them so they are all ready for any given task.
I am not much of a scope person BUT if I was I sure would not hessitate to try and build my own base. That looks like a worthy project for any accurate rifle. And that to me would be the place to start. Some barrels just seem to shoot well no matter what they are fed. Other barrels take alot of time finding that perfect load. Imperfections in steel,stresses, vibrations...... all come into play & more other facts than I know about .
But once you have a base built for whatever rifle system you choose (Mauser, 1903, Swiss...) It should be interchangable with any other rifle of the same design so there would not be any "time lose".
So charge agead and tackle the project ! Many valuble ideas and methods are hatched at home by "garage inventors" who bring to reality interestings ideas.

[mike in co]

the ishapore with the angle iron mount would be a "last ditch", but i think if you want a bit better, i'd go to brownells for a 308 mauser bbl, bend the bolt handle , rework the trigger a little ( or a aftermarket) and drill and tap the recvier for mounts on one of the mausers.

you can do most of this in little steps, limiting cost as you go. it will out shoot the enfield all day long....a requirement for a "sniper" rifle, vs a battle rifle.

mike in co

[atr]

first scope mount I ever made for a .303 British was from a piece of solid brass which I hand filed to the right shape.....still have it...it still works great !

[Lead Fred]

I still see Belgian FN mausers in 30-06 for a few hundred bucks at shows.

Any large ring mauser can be converted. If you not a smith, it will cost you to get it chambered.

I have more store bought 30 cal that I can ever use in my life time. I cast for the 45/70 and 30/30 as last ditch protection.

[dualsport]

The more immediate and realistic use for this rifle may be milsurp silhouette matches. I have shot one match, using j---- handloads in a Savage .303, it was a lot of fun. I plan to shoot these matches with cast bullets when I get rolling. Ordered the 314299 Mod from a GB here, should be in any day. Never hit a ram at 500 meters, but did ok at 385 and back. In these matches there's different classifications, as issued, scope, etc. On the Ishy, I did get the B-Square clamp on mount a while back, won't stay put, don't waste your money. Now that I'm considering cutting on it I'm wondering if I can mount that B-Square more better, a little drill and tap job. It's just an alternative I'm looking at compared to the angle iron base.

[docone31]

For the Ishapore,
Take 1" angle iron, the lower part rests on the ridge just above the stock. The center of the top part of the angle iron with the center marked is the exact center.
Cut out for the ejector screw, and drill and tap three 10/32 threads. On the angle iron, I countersunk for 10/32X 1/2 machine screws. They also came in allen with countersunk head. I used those.
The angle iron scope mount, I then relieved for the rear safety, over the bolt bridge. The bolt headspace piece gets tight there. As long as there is 1/4" thick angle iron left, reliefe works.
I have made several. Each one gets a little nicer. I deep blue with cold blueing. I also take the sharp edge off so when I handle it, it doesn't cut.
Once you scope it, you will need to bed the barrel. The POA does change with heat. A simple three point bedding and you have one find shooting rifle.
The Ishapore loves cast rounds, mine favours paper patching most of all. It outshoots the jacketed with paper.
What I did with my Enfield scope mount,
I machined a flat in the scope mount. There I drilled and tapped three machine screws. One to go on and through the charger piece. The other two to push against it through the mount. With that rear one in place, the front allen screw does not come loose.
To fit that mount on an Ishapore, the rear of the mount must be made square. Actually no biggee, but that is what it takes to make it fit.

[WILCO]

any weapon in your hands at the given moment of a "End of the World" situation would qualify for the task as long as it was used in the realm of sniping.

[bcp477]

I certainly subscribe to the concept of finding solutions without spending lots of $$..... besides, I no longer have lots of $$ to spend..... so that works out well. I made my own scope base for my Yugo M48 out of the standard rear sight base already on the barrel. Very easy to do and absolutely stable....it only required a bit of work with a file and dremel and the right rings (which I already had on hand). I always have been a dedicated tinkerer..... finding simple solutions via modifications to existing parts, etc. is one of my favorite "hobbies", in and of itself.

I don't subscribe to the "end of the world" or "SHTF" scenario stuff..... but I won't elaborate on that. I built the scope base because I realised that it would work.....and produce a very low mount for the scope....and because it only cost a little time and elbow grease.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

just a thought...

A number of my "make it wear many hats club" friends have purchased the Moisin-Nagants for the usage you envision. Lots of surplus J-ammo still out there, dies and boxer brass for boolits, etc. See it with a case or more of jacketed for the worst case scenarios, a good hunting rifle with boolits for the rest of your life.

There are more of us here than you can imagine that work towards the possibilities you mention. It NEVER! hurts to be prepared.

Rich

[dualsport]

Thanks guys for the good info and suggestions. As this project comes along I'll share the results. I like all your ideas, I'm thinking do 'em all. I see J&G has MNs in good shape going awful cheap, and Mausers. I have a C&R license that I've never used. Does that get me a discount at Brownell's? Doc, thanks for the detailed instructions. I think it's an amazing coincidence the 1" angle iron works so nicely. Is that just on the Ishy? I have a couple No 1 barreled actions to experiment(practice) on that are nasty enough to not worry about.

[docone31]

The dimensions on the Ishy, and #1MKIII are almost identical. A lot of #1 parts fit the Ishy very nicely.
I prefer the wood for the #1 for the Ishy. With a field pad the profile makes it quite comfortable. I prefer the nose metal for the Ishy on the #1.
Etc.
You will like the Ishy. I like the #1MKIII and the Ishy almost more then my Mausers.
For King and Country!

[Bloodman14]

Get hold of a company called "Centerfire Systems", in Versailles, Ky. They have a bit of stuff for the Enfields, including scope mounts, stocks,etc.

[jjohnson]

Yes, your C&R license will get you a discount at Brownell's, just mail them a copy.
Same goes for Midway, but not for Graf's.

[BruceB]

I love old military rifles more than most folks, I dare say. Also, the possibility of "last ditch" scenarios has not been far from my mind for a long time.

However (did y'all KNOW that was coming?).... there are so many decent, usable commercial rifles around now that going to extreme effort to modify an old military design to be a rudimentary sniper rifle seems questionable.

If one simply WANTS to modify a .303, or a Mauser, that's fine. Doing it for future reference when we can buy accurate rifles already suited for available scope mounts, with decent triggers and stocked for scope use, for a few hundred bucks, seems like a waste of effort to me.

At the Big Reno Show last week, there were dozens of used Rugers, Mausers, Savage/Stevens and similar marques of sporters for very low prices. ANY of them would be superior to a cobbled-up surplus rig with a home-made mount.

If that's ALL we had to work with, then I'd in there cobbling with the best of them! However, if we're preparing for a future situation TODAY, then there are much better ways to do it.

Incidentally, I was just reading about a Finnish sniper in the Winter War against the Soviets. He scored an official tally of 542 kills with an IRON-SIGHTED rifle (having removed the issued scope for his own reasons). I'll bet he also had iron NERVES.

[dualsport]

There is a certain amount of fun factor involved in my scheme. With any luck I'll never be tested repelling invaders to my homeland. The old milsurps interest me because they are battle proven rugged designs. I have a 700 ADL in 7mm Mag. that is very businesslike at long range. I like the idea of a gun that can take severe abuse and still go bang. Long ago I read Ahern's entire "Survialist" series, Orwell's '1984' and more recently "Unintended Consequences". Maybe it's affecting my thinking, I think I'll go rent some old Disney movies! A little off topic, but is there any country still using the '06? Seems like a better choice for all those M40s out there in the mideast.

[StarMetal]

Yes, your C&R license will get you a discount at Brownell's, just mail them a copy.
Same goes for Midway, but not for Graf's.

Grafs does take a C&R, they took mine for years. They do have a minimum $100 order though.

Joe

[StarMetal]

I love old military rifles more than most folks, I dare say. Also, the possibility of "last ditch" scenarios has not been far from my mind for a long time.

However (did y'all KNOW that was coming?).... there are so many decent, usable commercial rifles around now that going to extreme effort to modify an old military design to be a rudimentary sniper rifle seems questionable.

If one simply WANTS to modify a .303, or a Mauser, that's fine. Doing it for future reference when we can buy accurate rifles already suited for available scope mounts, with decent triggers and stocked for scope use, for a few hundred bucks, seems like a waste of effort to me.

At the Big Reno Show last week, there were dozens of used Rugers, Mausers, Savage/Stevens and similar marques of sporters for very low prices. ANY of them would be superior to a cobbled-up surplus rig with a home-made mount.

If that's ALL we had to work with, then I'd in there cobbling with the best of them! However, if we're preparing for a future situation TODAY, then there are much better ways to do it.

Incidentally, I was just reading about a Finnish sniper in the Winter War against the Soviets. He scored an official tally of 542 kills with an IRON-SIGHTED rifle (having removed the issued scope for his own reasons). I'll bet he also had iron NERVES.

Bruce,

I read some about that Finnish sniper also. As you mentioned he used iron sights, but how about the part where he used other unconventional sniper weapons...such as a sub machine gun. Most of us think "sniper" as a scoped rifle. That Finn was indeed one gutsy man.

Joe

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=dualsport; "Long ago I read Ahern's entire "Survialist" series, Orwell's '1984' and more recently "Unintended Consequences". Maybe it's affecting my thinking....."

You're far from alone in reading that sort of literature!

Some excellent older books with very strong survival themes are (thread drift warning):

-Malevil

-Down to a Sunless Sea

-No Blade of Grass

-On the Beach (wherein NOBODY survives)

-Lucifer's Hammer

....anyone else care to chime in? It's time for me to re-read some of these.

Oh, and I agree with the fun factor associated with projects such as the one on this thread!

[JesterGrin_1]

I would have to agree with a few others that if you like to work on something for your own enjoyment and a finished project that is great.

But when you can get a Rifle such as a Marlin XL-7 for around 300.00 that shoots as well if not better than any other factory rifle I have ever shot would be hard to beat as a starter rifle for a project such as yours.

[onceabull]

BruceB&Jester_1: spot on with your thinking,but for the fun factor involved.. here's a sort of "blind pig" story...We had our elk camp this fall about 60-70 yds from where a form.emp.of mine (and sometimes Gunshow partner) camped with his SIL and twin grandkids just old enough for their first big game tags.. natch,the kids can't wait to show off their rifles.. Young lady had a Stevens 200 in 243 W, and her brother had some mdl of sav.110 in 25/06(tupperware stock,pre-Accutrigger).. Daddy found both in separate pawnshops while vacationing in midAugust.. $90 for the 243W, $120 for the 25/06..have heard people say that those rifles will shoot right with anything else out of the box that's priced within $100...Don't personally know anyone with the Marlin Bolter to query... Onceabull

[Bloodman14]

Reading material addition; The 'Ashes' series, by William W. Johnstone.

[JesterGrin_1]

BruceB&Jester_1: spot on with your thinking,but for the fun factor involved.. here's a sort of "blind pig" story...We had our elk camp this fall about 60-70 yds from where a form.emp.of mine (and sometimes Gunshow partner) camped with his SIL and twin grandkids just old enough for their first big game tags.. natch,the kids can't wait to show off their rifles.. Young lady had a Stevens 200 in 243 W, and her brother had some mdl of sav.110 in 25/06(tupperware stock,pre-Accutrigger).. Daddy found both in separate pawnshops while vacationing in midAugust.. $90 for the 243W, $120 for the 25/06..have heard people say that those rifles will shoot right with anything else out of the box that's priced within $100...Don't personally know anyone with the Marlin Bolter to query... Onceabull



I have the Marlin XL-7 in 30-06 that if I even spend twice the money for another rifle it might shoot as well as the Marlin but I do not think so. I purchased the Marlin as a rifle that I would not be afraid to scratch up while hunting in south Texas in all of the cactus and Mesquete thorn trees and so on and so forth. But I found that it will shoot better than my Remington 700 BDL as well as my Weatherby and at less than $3OO.oo for the Marlin it just can not be beat. Out of the box other than cleaning it made groups of 3/4 of an inch and less at 100 yards.

[StarMetal]

I have the Marlin XL-7 in 30-06 that if I even spend twice the money for another rifle it might shoot as well as the Marlin but I do not think so. I purchased the Marlin as a rifle that I would not be afraid to scratch up while hunting in south Texas in all of the cactus and Mesquete thorn trees and so on and so forth. But I found that it will shoot better than my Remington 700 BDL as well as my Weatherby and at less than $3OO.oo for the Marlin it just can not be beat. Out of the box other than cleaning it made groups of 3/4 of an inch and less at 100 yards.

Jester,

Thanks for the info on the Marlin rifle. I was curious as to how they shot. Not many people talk about them. You're right, they probably are just as good as anything out there.

Have you shot cast from it yet?

Joe

[JesterGrin_1]

Sorry to say Joe no I have not had a chance to shoot cast through it as of yet. I have loaded it for this hunting season with Hornady 165Gr SST with 55.5Gr of IMR-4350 in a Remington case with a Wolf LRP for the 30-06. This was just for group to find a load that it would shoot well with as time was short for Deer Season. And I have to add what is wild is this group was only the 9th 10th and 11th shot out of the brand new barrel. So as I shoot it more I think the groups will shrink a bit. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/IMAG0055.jpg

After Deer Season is over I plan to use some Cast 311284 210Gr slugs in it. :)


The WILD part is that I am really thinking about another Marlin XL-7 in 30-06 that will only see cast. :)

[Mel-4857]

Check out 303 British.com. An article there on making a scope mount out of angle iron. Mel

[Frank46]

How about "alas babylon" . Frank

[35 Whelen]

I understand the point about buying one of the abundant commercial rifles for a last ditch rifle, but personally, I cannot imagine a "last ditch rifle" that didn't have open sights for backup. I suppose a person could mount sights on said rifles, but then is that much different than mounting a scope on a rifle that already has sights?
My last ditch rifle is (was) a Mauser FR-8. It's now a Scout rifle complete with a Burris 2.75X forward mounted scope and backup sights consisting of an all steel Redfield micrometer sight and a Patridge front blade.
35W

[dualsport]

As I mentioned I have an old BDL in 7mm Rem Mag. I think I've asked this somewhere here before, but isn't the current standard sniper rifle based on this same action? (I may be confusing the nomenclature-M24 or M40?) I'm talking about the 7.62 version. If so, why do they use the long action vs. a short? I guess I can assume that the Remington 700 has proved to be highly trouble free in this role?? Any of you guys used one in the military? Issues? Heard stories? I get reviews from my son who used everything But the 7.62 in Iraq. While I'm asking so many questions, how do I speed up the lock time on a basic Mauser 98 type without affecting reliability or durability?

[flounderman]

you can speed up the lock time with a wolff heavy spring, or if you want the cheap way, pull the bolt apart, remove the spring, maybe stretch it a little and bush the fireing pin until there is just enough room for the spring to compress, on cocking. if you can assemble the fireing pin, it has enough room to compress on cocking. you can see how much bushing you can use by pushing the bolt shroud and compressing the spring. however much the part you have to turn to take off clears the cocking piece, that's how much space you can take up with a bushing.

[1Shirt]

Have been lurking on this thread for awhile, and have to add my two cents now I guess. As far as milsurps, think it hard to beat Mosins, either long or short, and as issue. Own one of each. Both rough as a cob, both have rough bbls, and both will stay in or under 3" at 100 with fairly heavy (1800-2000fps) cast loads with blt wts. from 150 thru 200 gr. Not pertty for sure, but at less than 100.00 they are just fine. As far as commercial, I picked up one of the Stevens in 308 w/the gray plastic stocks, and with a cheap 3x9 scope, the darn thing will hold at an inch at a hundred with J blts, and in the 1 1/2" with most cast at around 1800 or so. It is just the old 110 Sav. with a Stevens name. Lousy trigger thou. Just finished watching Enemy at the Gate again, so the Mosin kind of rings right as a result for me at least today. Of course, my K-31, and my Sweeds, come pretty close in the poor mans sniper catagory. Was listening to a talk radio show a couple of weeks ago and the question was what is the best investment that you can make in the current economy. The answer was "canned food and ammo". Food for thought for sure.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Cooleemee Edd]

I am turning one of my .303 British Enfields into a "sniper rifle," i.e., hunting rifle with a bi-pod. I am having a good time with my lead-bullet handloads. This thing gets DIRTY fast!!

I want to know about paper-patching. Can someone help me out? (NO! Don't dare ask me "Which way did you come in?"!)

[mike in co]

As I mentioned I have an old BDL in 7mm Rem Mag. I think I've asked this somewhere here before, but isn't the current standard sniper rifle based on this same action? (I may be confusing the nomenclature-M24 or M40?) I'm talking about the 7.62 version. If so, why do they use the long action vs. a short? I guess I can assume that the Remington 700 has proved to be highly trouble free in this role?? Any of you guys used one in the military? Issues? Heard stories? I get reviews from my son who used everything But the 7.62 in Iraq. While I'm asking so many questions, how do I speed up the lock time on a basic Mauser 98 type without affecting reliability or durability?



depends on WHO'S sniper rifle you are talking about.

the SEAL's just went to accuracy international rifles.

i think most the rest are shooting some form of a rem 700....tho there are the armalite ar10's and knight's sr25's and sr12's....oh and the barrett's

[mike in co]

the operative word here is sniper.....not last ditich rifle.

a sniper rifle today, needs to have a reasonable scope, and better than average accuracy.

so we need an inexpensive accurate rifle that can mount a scope.


for the bucks, hands down in todays( yesterdays) milsurplus market: the swiss k31.

i have never seen a bad shooting k31...i own four and lost to a bunch more two weeks ago shooting my 98 7.62x51(308 win).

these used to be $100 or less........sorry to say but now they are $300 or more...but if you have one of the $100 rifles...make it a sniper easily.

the scope mount from st marie graphics( graf and sons) is about 65 plus $20 for rings.

now add a scope of your choice.

most of mine have 4x weaver steel tube marksman's

as a sniper scope you need modern coatings to get better low lite picture.

so that cost is up to you....lots of modern 3-9's/4-12's would be ideal.

from this point we can look at other rifles...but either the costs go up or the accuracy goes down.


m39's...great but not cheap. best with a side mounted scope..not a long eye relief rear sight mount.
20"mn( any..44, 38,59...) low cost, but need the side mount to be a solid reliable sniper.
91/30, 91......slow fire ok, but they tend to heat up and shots start to drift with that long thin bbl.

any 98 mauser(98's 24's 44's 27's etc)...drill and tap, bend the bolt, bed in the original stcok.....308, 8mm both work

96/38 swede.....again drill and tap....the swede's were ahead of thier time....a 140 6.5 will work very well for a long distance......i saw an excellent this weekend,,,,but it was 300 bucks.

03a3/p14/3040......an 03 runs 400 or more today....get a sporter for 250...a deal for this subject.


remember that a sniper rifle has to be reliable and accurate........
simple bedding, a great solid mount and a reliable consistant scope...the ammo is up to you.

the k31 works out this way for me:
rifle: $79(maybe 85 with tax)
scope mount: $65 (72 with shipping)
rings $20(shipped above)
scope...... $30 weaver 4x, $80 weaver 6x, $125 weaver 4-12
these are all daytime scopes, not low light...so a variable in cost.

so my last ditch SNIPER is $207........and fits reliable and accurate.

i load my own but the swiss milsurplus ammo is still reasonably priced.

for a common family of ammo...go with a 308 98 or commercial.....

while 30'06 is still the most popular round in the usa...its in stores only not in active mil use.

mike in co

[sheepdog]

A mosin nagant with a cheap side scope mount and a little homemade trigger job can be a dang nice setup for the economically handicapped. ;)

[35 Whelen]

As I mentioned I have an old BDL in 7mm Rem Mag. I think I've asked this somewhere here before, but isn't the current standard sniper rifle based on this same action? (I may be confusing the nomenclature-M24 or M40?) I'm talking about the 7.62 version. If so, why do they use the long action vs. a short? I guess I can assume that the Remington 700 has proved to be highly trouble free in this role?? Any of you guys used one in the military? Issues? Heard stories? I get reviews from my son who used everything But the 7.62 in Iraq. While I'm asking so many questions, how do I speed up the lock time on a basic Mauser 98 type without affecting reliability or durability?

Good stuff here. A simple way to speed the lock time (and I did it myself) is to remove the firing pin and lighten it. The firing pin in mine was flat in the midsection so I took a Dremel tool with one of those thin abrasive metal cutting wheels and ground slots in the firing pin. Anything at all to remove metal and lighten the firing pin will speed locktime.

I own a few Mosins and used to own alot more. I though they'd make good last ditch rifles, but for my tastes they're just too rough. I know it's minor, but I hate the fact that you can't load 5 rds. in the magazine and close the bolt over them. The magazine truly has a capacity of only 4 rounds. Also, in my experience those huge rims have a tendency to hang on one another causing jams. But, to each his own.

35W

[Bret4207]

[QUOTE=dualsport; "Long ago I read Ahern's entire "Survialist" series, Orwell's '1984' and more recently "Unintended Consequences". Maybe it's affecting my thinking....."

You're far from alone in reading that sort of literature!

Some excellent older books with very strong survival themes are (thread drift warning):

-Malevil

-Down to a Sunless Sea

-No Blade of Grass

-On the Beach (wherein NOBODY survives)

-Lucifer's Hammer

....anyone else care to chime in? It's time for me to re-read some of these.

Oh, and I agree with the fun factor associated with projects such as the one on this thread!

Lucifers Hammer and Alas, Babylon are my two favorites. I can tell you to avoid "Partiots, surviving the coming collapse" - a completely unrealistic story where the heros are superhuman people with unbelievable foresight and god like character that never, ever make a mistake. Very disappointing, but great if you like lots of gear, gear, gear. Another decent, but not great recent one is "A world made by hand". Not bad at all, but darn sure not a great book. There are a bunch of other okay ones out there. "The Survivalist" series (dated, the USSR was still around), "From the ashes" (another one where the heros never fail-ever). THe problem I find with most of these is they are written at about the 10th grade reading level. Give me Tom Clancy or WEB Griffith character/plot development and it would help. IT's like the "Left Behind" series- great idea, lousy writing.

[Three44s]

Red Dawn


Three 44s

[docone31]

Farnhems Freehold

[lurch]

The Left Behind series:

Yep, good message, mediocre writing and an abysmal grasp of all things firearms... Still a good read though.