What to size boolit in M189G 45-70?

[HammerMTB]

Yes, I know the sage advice would be to slug the bbl and size to it. Since that is not an option for me right now, an informal poll might help out.
.457?
.458?
.459?
Something else?
Those of you who have shot many a Pb projectile downrange no doubt have a sizer dedicated to the job..... :brokenima

Edit- oops, it's an 1895, not a 189, as you no doubt know. My bad....

[Gunlaker]

Yes, I know the sage advice would be to slug the bbl and size to it. Since that is not an option for me right now, an informal poll might help out.
.457?
.458?
.459?
Something else?
Those of you who have shot many a Pb projectile downrange no doubt have a sizer dedicated to the job..... :brokenima

Edit- oops, it's an 1895, not a 189, as you no doubt know. My bad....


Definitely .459". I've had 2 marlins in .45-70 and both slugged .458". They needed .459" bullets to get decent accuracy.

Chris.

[Bullshop Junior]

I size mine .460"

[crabo]

.460 for me

[JesterGrin_1]

.460 :)

[Bullshop]

Actually all the sizes mentioned will work equally well. WHAT!!! you say.
Let me qualify that. Each size with the right type powder and the right alloy or in some cases pure lead with that powder can shoot equally as well as any other combination.
Actually you can even go smaller than .457" and still get excellent results if as I said you match the right powder to the right hardness of alloy.
Just look for example at what the fellows shooting BPC are doing with boolits patched to .450". It does not have to be patched either. A grooved boolit of .450" of the proper hardness and with the correct burn rate of powder can shoot as accurately as any other from the 45/70.
Consider that the fellows shooting the White ML system rifles are shooting .504" diameter boolits in .510" groove barrels and can shoot in the 1moa range 100 yard groups.
How about some of the most accurate shooting ever done with a boolit, ever hear of the Roland Pope group? If I remember right it was about a .375" 10 shot 220 yards from a 33/40 Pope/Ballard and the boolits were muzzle loaded. Muzzle loaded boolits are generally somewhat under groove diameter and closer to bore diameter so they will go down the bore easily. You don't muzzle load a boolit that exceeds groove diameter.
It seems the trend is to larger than groove diameter as you can see by the other responses but that is by no means an absolute.
I could go on much further but have already rambled quite some more than I intended.
There was a time when the shooters of the day felt that over size boolits were detrimental to accuracy. Lost to discuss on the subject and lots of good info in some of the early books.
This whole idea is tied into what some folks think are under sized molds from some makers but that only applies to the current trend toward hard alloys and over groove diameter boolits.
I better quit now. I think I will get chewed on enough for what I have already said.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[softpoint]

I size most of mine to .459, because that is the largest conventional sizer-luber die I have. On my Ranch dog molds, (I have both weights) I use a Lee push through die that I honed out to .4595. I also use that push through for final sizing of my paper patch .45/70 boolits. I have a Lee 340gr. and a Lee 405gr. plainbase mold that cast only .457, so they work well paper patched, as they are a little small as they are. Remember, it does no good to size at .460 if your mold throws .457!

[corvette8n]

RD mold .460 for me also

[pdawg_shooter]

I size mine .4515 and give them 2 wraps of 16# paper.

[superior]

I shoot the Lee 457-405f unsized over 40 grains h4895. Accurate, hard hitting, clean burning.

[NickSS]

I size my bullets to .459" which mostly wipes lube onto the bullet as most of my molds cast bullets between .458 and .4595. I agree with Bullshop as to sizing bullets. In the old days it was quite common to shoot undersized bullets and let the black powder bump them up to fit. Most of those old timers shot either pure let of a soft alloy with tin only. One of the best shots I ever seen shot a Muzzle loader for long distance rifle matches. His gun was a factory made Parker Hale Volunteer rifle that was .451 land to land and .458 groove diameter. His bullets were a 500 gr RN sized to ,450". He shot a load of 130 gr of FFG with a .060 card wad followed by a 45 wonder wad then the bullet. The bullet just slide down the bore with the weight of the ram rod. To show how accurate the rifle was He shot a 49 out of a possible 50 points at 1200 yards up in BC to win that match. Everyone else were shooting breach loaders (sharps, Martini Henrys, Winchester High walls etc) and the number 2 guy came in two poins and 3 Vs behind him.

[rhead]

.462 in mine. I tried .457 through .463. The groups continued to shrink until the .463 load started to show resistance at chambering. My Ruger #1 preferred .460. I have generally gotten better results fitting the boolit to the chamber instead of to the grooves. Of course in the ideal situation both would be the same but the chamber is often a touch larger than the grooves.
I do agree with Bullshop in that almost any reasonable size can be made to shoot well. In my Marlin .462 was more forgiving of other parameters, 3031 was the most forgiving of the powders.
Since you said that slugging the bore was out of the question at the present time measure the interior of several fired, unsized rounds. That measurement plus the wall thickness will give a good estimate of your chamber size. A light friction fit in an unsized case will probably do pretty good in your rifle using a case that has been resized enough to grip the boolit without actually resizing the it with the neck tension.

[Gunlaker]

Actually all the sizes mentioned will work equally well. WHAT!!! you say.
BIC/BS


That's a good point :grin:

I'll qualify my response then. My Marlin is happy with .459" hard cast bullets (around 21 BNH). It really didn't like 0.458" hard cast bullets. The difference was night and day. I haven't tried anything with a larger diameter as to date I've used "commercial" cast bullets and .459" was the largest these guys sell. I've been very happy with them. (I only cast for my BP single shots so far).

Chris.

[jtaylor1960]

I size mine at .459 partly because my mold won't go much bigger.It does shoot extremely well.With peep sights I have shot groups at 50 yds. of about 5/8"with my favorite 420 gr. cast bullet.

[Just Duke]

I size mine at .459 partly because my mold won't go much bigger.It does shoot extremely well.With peep sights I have shot groups at 50 yds. of about 5/8"with my favorite 420 gr. cast bullet.

That's all the bigger my NEI mould will throw too.



http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/200.jpg

Looks to be shooting OK too!
Here is a target using Lead 485 Grainers .459 and 28 grains of Hodgden 4198 at 30 yards.
Not bad shootin for a half blind guy. ;)


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN%20GUIDE%20GUN/BARBIESMARLIN.jpg


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/MARLIN/DSC_0237.jpg





and for the 1886's
Here's the SAECO #018, 405 grain cast wheel weight samples.


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/BP45-702.jpg





Winchester 1886 Taked Down 45-70.
Bullets sized to .459 and 28 grains of Hodgden 4198
Here is the SAECO 405 grainer at 30 yards shot resting on my elbows.


http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/DSC_0239.jpg

http://i921.photobucket.com/albums/ad54/LEVERACTIONSHOOTERS/DSC_0238.jpg


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/006-7.jpg

[Just Duke]

Forgot to say both my stainless Marlins have Ballard barrels.

[danny.k]

DukeNukem -
Can you please post a pic or two of one of those 485grs boolits please:razz:?

[Just Duke]

DukeNukem -
Can you please post a pic or two of one of those 485grs boolits please:razz:?


I ordered the #346 (458-440 GC) mould in their 5 cavity.
The 5 cavity was bowed in the middle and was sent back and returned in the same condidtion. I am now using only SAECO and Ballisticast only now.
It comes out to a little over 480 grains with GC and heavy alloy.


http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/458-440-GC.jpg


www.neihandtools.com

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/50%20CALIBERFORUM/NEI45-70MOULD.jpg

[454PB]

If you're using a gas check, any size over .456" works, but with plain base design, I size .4585". My 1895 GS slugs at .457".

[Just Duke]

The 485 grainers are the ones in back.
The two front ones are the SAECO #017 350 grainer and Ranger Ricks .50 Cal for 500 S&W.
I have since switched to adding lino to my mix for more prononced features in the bullets.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/EBRSOPMODS/LEVER%20ACTION%20SHOOTERS%20SOCIETY/BP45-701.jpg

[danny.k]

Thanks, exellent!

The look like huntingboolits should.
Better contact NEI for one off those molds:razz:.

[Just Duke]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/RANGERRICKQUIGLEY/BulletsPage9newgif.gif