Wonderful

[44man]

I just found this BPCR thing and it makes me happy. I was on the Microcrook site and can no longer get on. I still get all the postings on my E mail but when I go to sign on, it shuts my AOL right off. Not bad enough they control 90% of the worlds computers, now they want to control web sites and servers too.
Anyway, I think a good thing to discuss is how different lubes might cause vertical stringing and why.
Anyone have any input?

[Black Prince]

Uhhhhhhhh . . . what is the question?

[44man]

I heard that a certain lube was good so I bought some. Then I read a report that it caused vertical stinging. I loaded a bunch and that is what the lube did for me too. At 200 yd's I had a 6" string up and down with every load and boolit I tried. It was a waste of money.
I make my own lubes and have wondered what the difference is with very soft, slippery lube compared to a firmer one.

[Black Prince]

There are many more competetant shooters here on the BPCR forum that can comment on this question with more information than I can provide. My experience from the begining with BPCR shooting has been limited to home made lubes using beeswax as the main ingredient. I've used Emmerett's in various formulations for many years (since 1970 when I started shooting black powder) and have not had any reason to change since I have free supplies of all the ingredients. I have added a little pine rosen to it at times (3 to 5%) and more bees wax in the summer to make it stick to the bullets better and not be too soft in the hot weather we have down south. I've added a little lanolin instead of pine rosen to make the lube stick. I didn't notice any change in bullet impact with any of those changes.

In BPCR shooting, the lube must serve two purposes: 1) lube the bullet and 2) help keep the fouling soft. It has appeared to me that the firmer the lube to begin with, the less it helps keep the fouling soft. But I am not stating that as an absolute fact because I made the lube harder in the summer and barrels get hotter in summer and that makes fouling harder so there may be a relationship there as I suspect there is.

I finally got tired of blow tubing and mixing lubes and started duplex loading. Now I use Emerett's exclusively in the more or less standard mix which is pretty soft, and I don't have any problems other than old age and cataracts can give a shooter. When I miss, it's my fault and not my rifle, bullet or lube. I have discovered that it is sort of important to be able to see the target and the sights at the same time and I can't always do that anymore.

I loaded some 45-70 cartridges with a bullet somebody gave me to try last year and took them to the range several times during the summer without getting around to shooting them. Last weekend just for giggles, I pulled several to see if the lube (standard Emmerett's) had melted and migrated into the powder. The loads were just as I had made them with no lube migration. That tells me I don't have to change the lube formula for hot weather which is what I had suspected. The less I tinker with things, and the more standardized I can get my loads, the better they shoot accuracy wise. That has been true for both smokeless and black powder. I developed some loads for the 30-06 back in 1958 and I'm still using them today. I've tried others, but keep coming back to my old standard load because none have shot better than what I have always used. Some have shot as well, but why change for a "me too" load?

I've been here drinking my coffee and scratching my head wondering what physics / chemistry principle could cause the effect you are getting from using that lube and for the life of me partner, I can't think of it. But then, some days I can't think of what I had for breakfast that day either so that doesn't mean a dam thing. Hang on. Some of these boys whose brains still work will come along and help you figure it out.

[Dale53]

I used Emmert's Home Mix for fifteen years in BPCR-Sil with complete satisfaction. I, a couple of years ago, made a small change-I dropped 5% of the Canola Oil and replaced it with 5% of "Anhydrous Lanolin. It seems to extend the life of the lube while on the bullet.

I also use the same mix with my 1/2 minute Schuetzen rifle with smokeless loads. I have also been using it as a general purpose lube with most of my cast bullets (.32 mag to 1750 with plain base in my TC Carbine).

I learned many years ago that duplex with black powder is the way to go. However, it is not permitted in NRA BPCR Sil (I HATE blowtubing). Anywhere that it is permitted, however, that is how you will find me shooting BPCR's. In fact, If I rifle hunt this year, it will be with a 45/70, the 330 Gould HP and a duplex load of black powder.

Dale53

[felix]

You will need a chrono to run the vertical stringing thing down pat. If the ES is small, then the average velocity is making the barrel vibrate wrong. If the ES is wide, then the powder speed is too slow, or there is too much variation in boolit pull. I constantly have to watch the latter condition because I like to seat long. Sometimes, a day to day temperature thingie shows up, and that means another powder, perhaps nearly the same speed, is warrented. ... felix

[KCSO]

I had a stringing problem and thought it was lube until I checked my case necks. I now polish the case necks to remove all deposits and have had no problems. My lube is the old Ned Roberts lube of bear oil and beeswax. I tried SPG but I could see no advantage. When you could still buy it my favorite was sperm oil and beeswax. I was talking to Doc Carlson last night about this and he said that nothing he has tried has ever beat out sheeps tallow with fine rendered deer tallow runing a close second. He claimed that most stinging problems would go back to seating and neck tension rather than lube.

[44man]

Since I seat my boolits by hand and only size enough to provide a slip fit to the boolit, neck tension does not enter into it. I never have to expand but I put a little flare to start the boolit and I leave the flare on to center the case.
In my 45-70 the SD is running 7.3 and the ES is 16.9 fps. Velocity average is 1281.2.
The lube that caused trouble was that black stuff with moly in it.
I tried SPG and the last 10" of barrel would have hard, dry fouling in it. No lube star on the muzzle. 20 blow tubes did not help when the barrel got hot. I started to wipe between shots with a brush and damp patch. I could barely push it through. Stuff cost 100 times more then what it is worth.
With my lube I can push a dry patch through easy. The muzzle is greasy and damp. I still get the high and low shots at 500 m. They run 2 minutes between the high and low ones where I skin the belly with one and skin the back with another in between some good hits.
Going to a stiffer lube raises the SD to 17.1 and ES to 46.2 and increases velocity to 1331.1 fps.
I gathered up what I need to make Emmert's and like the idea of a little lanolin. I have to try it next.
I can make smokeless guns shoot, but BPCR is the hardest game in town.

[Black Prince]

It has been my experience that vertical strings have usually been caused by the barrel heating and expanding in the barrel channel. The vertical stringing effect then increases with additional barrel heat. But that does not seem to factor into what you have described here.

When the rifle is properly bedded and a load is fired that is a consistent one, the harmonic vibrations set up in the barrel cause the bullet to exit the muzzle at the same place each shot because a consistent load is causing consistent vibrations. (All other things like shooter performance being the same.) If you have inconsistent loads, or inconsistent bedding of the barrel that allows the barrel to shift in its channel, you will get different vibrations each shot and the bullet will then exit the barrel at a different angle because the barrel will be in a different place each shot when the bullet exits the muzzle. This effect however, usually does not limit itself to vertical dispersions, and you get a shotgun effect with your groups.

For you to get only the vertical strings would mean that the barrel harmonic is only in a vertical plane. I fail to see how a lube could cause that effect. But as you say, loading black powder is a different ball game and Murphy’s Law applies here.

Let us know how the Emmerett’s works for you. It is the old standard by which the others are judged and I’m betting that you also get good results with it. If not, this is a good place to vent and most of these boys are at least MILDLY sympathetic. They hardly ever laugh and make fun of you or call you names when you mess up. I have always suspected that they snicker under their breath though. :roll:

[44man]

I have a Browning and I floated the barrel. I rest on the null point of the barrel. I worked loads and picked the load in the center of the pattern as groups walked up, down, left and right. So it is hard to figure.

[felix]

Nah, nobody snickers on this board. Most of us are doers rather than readers, so we've been there, done that, and, more than likely, more of the bad more than once too. ... felix

[44man]

I have seen a change in the ES with all components the same except a change in the lube even with wiping between shots.
I also tested primers over the chrono.
LP gave me an ES of 31.4
LP mag---ES of 16.9
LR---------ES of 20.8
LR mag---ES of 74.1
I know a lot of guys say you need strong ignition and use the LR mag primer and others say you need very mild ignition. At least with my load, neither is true. It looks like the middle of the road primer is better with the LP mag being the best. They shoot nice groups too.
I guess the next job is to work loads to see if a change in compression will reduce the ES. Then do a test of lube consistancy which will have to be done on the same day.
Then another test between a slippery lube and a sticky one.
I will have to set up a sheet of Celotex at 500 meters to check boolit entry angles and dispersion.
And use a scope.
It sounds like more time and supplies then I can afford.
I do have a bunch of old loads that I can slip out the boolits, clean the inside of the necks and boolits and reload them with different lubes. They need shot up anyway.

[44man]

Felix, with your knowledge and having come up with the best smokeless lube going, how come you never worked out the best BP lube?

[felix]

44man, the best BP lube would have a low ph, and therein lies the problem. After shooting, the gun would have to be cleaned reasonably soon after to prevent rust. If we were not talking exact replicas, like chrome lined bores, then no problem. Adding something like aluminum stearate to Emmets would lower the ph into the proper ph range to keep carbon loose. It is just better, in the long run, to not take a chance, lest someone would get lazy and/or forget to clean in time. So, an alternative would be to find a water soluble lube with a neutral ph, and there are a few polymers that could fit the bill. The real truth is that I have not had an interest in BP to persue a solution, literally. ... felix

[44man]

It sounds tough to find a water soluble lube. What would it be thickened with? I have always wondered about all the lubes with wax as the major ingredient and then all the oils, all of which are not soluble in water. Then we want the fouling to absorb moisture. I understand that some ingredients can react with the fouling and form soap like substances but can they absorb moisture?
I have shot a bunch of shots with the blow tube, carried the rifle back to my rest and using the blow tube, counted the breaths needed to turn the fouling in the bore dark. At least for that day. But if you watch the color, it is a very short time before it dries out, sometimes just seconds. That is why I started to wipe between shots. Any difference in the time it takes to get off a shot when using a blow tube puts the bore in a different condition, as does the temperature of the barrel and of course the outside temperature and humidity.
It seems as if lanolin can absorb some moisture. I might just try straight lanolin to see what happens.

[44man]

I got it---SPIT, as in spit patch. Find a way to thicken it. But ya has ta spit out the chaw first!

[SharpsShooter]

44man,

My typical method with the blow tube is to fire the shot within a minute after puffing enough to darken the bore (about 5 breaths on most days) I can go about 20 shots with this method before I need to clean. My loads are drop tubed for 24" and then compressed another .250. I use Federal 215's to start up 70gr of Goex Cartridge pushing a Lyman 457125 that weighs 520gr.

[44man]

I have heard that Goex needs more fire. I started that way but went to Swiss powder. I get it cheaper then you can buy Goex for at the sporting goods store. Swiss likes the LP mag primer or a standard LR.
Have you tried the LP mag with Goex? I would be interested in what you find.

[SharpsShooter]

I've been tempted to try standard primers and pistol as well. My 100yd groups run around 2" for 5 shots, when I'm having a decent day, so I'm not sure I could do better with a switch of primer. It might be interesting to see. I seat the boolit to -.010 of the rifling, so I don't think the boolit is getting too much of a head start on the powder. I'd like to chronograph these loads because they sound like a high power smokeless rifle when fired, but cases show absolutely no pressure.

[44man]

I don't think it is possible to build unsafe pressure in the 45-70 case with black. My friend experimented by compressing in stages until he had, if I remember, about 85 or 90 gr's under the boolit. The velocity was way lower then 70 gr's. There is a point of diminishing returns with black powder in that once you reach a maximum velocity, any further addition of powder will start to decrease it.
He used compressed Pyrocrap at a shoot and I could watch a plug of it fly out of the muzzle like a flare and burn in the grass. The line had a great laugh watching him shoot those bottle rockets.
I have never seen this with black powder so I don't know what happens to it with too heavy of a load. I suspect the burn rate just gets real slow with too much compression. Just going from regular powder grains to one huge grain. Burns like solid rocket fuel.
I have tried all kinds of wads and used .060" LDPE for a long time. My friend came to shoot and handed me 5 of his loads. I put them into 1/2" at 100 yd's. He use wasp nest paper for a wad. Since I didn't have much and it was getting old and crumbly, I tried paper from those manila envelopes and it seems to work pretty good. I have never been able to decide if one wad is better then another. My friend sometimes doesn't use a wad if he is pressed for time loading and I never see any difference in his accuracy.
The only wad I didn't like were those lubricated veggie wads, or felt, whatever they are, groups were horrible with any load. They are the wads guys use in the cap and ball.

[montana_charlie]

I have always wondered about all the lubes with wax as the major ingredient and then all the oils, all of which are not soluble in water. Then we want the fouling to absorb moisture. I understand that some ingredients can react with the fouling and form soap like substances but can they absorb moisture?
I can't say any of this with the authority of knowledge gained from experience, nor am I able to spend as much time as you in testing of components and theories, but among many things said by long-time BPCR shooters you can find these:

-moisture is released when black powder burns
-some powders burn 'wetter' than others
-moisture from the burn and fats from the lube combine with elements in the fouling to create the 'soap'
-lube needs to augment the moisture, prevent it's premature loss, and substitute for it if it evaporates...to keep the soap soft.

And, Oh, Yeah!...it needs to lubricate to prevent leading.

That sounds impossible to me, but like I said.....
CM

[44man]

Yeah, I think the old timers were WAY smarter then we are when it comes to black powder.
When I look at some of the things they did with no fancy machinery and very little resources, I am nothing but humbled. I figure I only have 1/4 of the brains they had. And to think 40 years old WAS old and 50 was ancient.
All you have to do is read the Constitution and look at what is in Congress now.

[SharpsShooter]

Yeah, I think the old timers were WAY smarter then we are when it comes to black powder.
When I look at some of the things they did with no fancy machinery and very little resources, I am nothing but humbled. I figure I only have 1/4 of the brains they had. And to think 40 years old WAS old and 50 was ancient.
All you have to do is read the Constitution and look at what is in Congress now.

I agree 44man. Just about anyone can assemble accurate smokeless, J@cketed ammunition with little effort or knowledge. BP is a different animal entirely. The old ones understood the limitations of BP and simply worked ways around them. It is truely humbling to read of the level of accuracy that they attained and compare it to what we find ourselves capable of producing.