Lyman 525 & NEF UltraSLug

[phaessler]

Well I got out today to do some testing on my NEF 12ga UltraSlug. I put together 6 different combinations, all using BlueDot. I was bound and determined to get it to work. After reading various suggestions and sorting them out by what I thought would make a difference and by my own past observations while trying to get this thing to shoot.
Here are the three I will pursue. Groups are all shot from a bench at 50yds, for now, I do plan on checking them 100, but ran out of time. The black square targets are 4.00" X 4.00". I used 3 shot groups to eliminate the combinations quicker, as you can see I pulled the first shot on my third group.
All loads use the same Lot of BlueDot and CCI209 primers. The slugs were Lyman cast sabot type (using WW), weight was 523gn after hot glue filling.

LOAD 1: WIN AA Grey hull 2 3/4" ; 44gn BlueDot; WinAA12R wad; glue filled slug.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/load2.jpg

LOAD 3: Fiocchi clear 3" hull; 50gn BlueDot; 12ga Gas seal; 12ga Flex Seal; Win AA white wad, just the cup and petals; glue filled slug
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/load3.jpg
YES, thats four, I pulled the first one.

LOAD 4: Fiocchi clear 3" hull 44gn BlueDot; 12ga Gas seal; 12ga Flex Seal; Win AA red wad, just cup and petals; glue filled slug.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/load4.jpg

Like I said, was 50yds and only made 6 of each combination.
Just to let satisfy some suggestions, I did not use mica to lube the wads, but I want to still try it. My experiment with nitro cards appeared fruitless as it pushed the slug up and out of the wad cup ( read "sabot") which affected the final assembly height. And the AA hulls have 5 loadings on them now. Will need to duplicate the loads , and try again at 100yds, hopefully the weather holds out.

Pete

[peter nap]

All look great to me Pete. If you want to use a nitro card and I've found it does help with Blue Dot but not with RE 17, use the WAA 12 F14 (Yellow wad). It's a perfect fit.

From what I see though, you're in high cotton already.

The Ultra slug guns are great, aren't they. I had 3 and my son just bought one from Ed Huble.

[OBCoal]

Nice groups. How stiff is the recoil on the 3in blue dot loads?

[phaessler]

Well OBCoal, the 50gn loads lets you know its "Goin' On", but the 44gn load is mild. The "gun", not sure if I can call it a rilfe weighs almost 10lbs, so recoil is there , but mild.
The loads do bark though.

Pete

[tomcat388th]

Great looking groups if #3 or #4 hangs in there at 100 your in great shape. I've been shooting lymans for awhile now I shoot a 2 3/4 inch 45 grain bluedot load out of my ush. Just shot 2 does last Saturday with them.
If recoil ever ends up being a problem invest in a limbsaver recoil pad. I bought the slip on pad for mine med size I needed the extra length on the stock. They really sucks up the recoil.
Justin

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Phaessler where can I buy those Win AA red wads from? To me your load 4 and 3 look very good and promissing. Keep it up and Best of Luck.
Hello Peter always good to see your posts, Very colorfull spicy man!
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[garandsrus]

Pete,

Excellent groups.... Can you elaborate on what you are doing to the slugs and wads prior to loading.

Thanks,
John

[tomcat388th]

VdoMemorie
Precision Reloading carries the claybuster clone of the win aa red wad. I think I read that winchester had quit making them but i could be wrong on that and thinking of something else.
Justin
Illinideer

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Illinideer I appreciate that thank you. I do know you have found some special slug loads that work very well for you could you please care to shed some light on them.
I did find your home made shooting stick very innovative from your post in another forum.
Keep it up and we all can learn from you.
Thank you
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[peter nap]

Great looking groups if #3 or #4 hangs in there at 100 your in great shape. I've been shooting lymans for awhile now I shoot a 2 3/4 inch 45 grain bluedot load out of my ush. Just shot 2 does last Saturday with them.
If recoil ever ends up being a problem invest in a limbsaver recoil pad. I bought the slip on pad for mine med size I needed the extra length on the stock. They really sucks up the recoil.
Justin

Tomcat, I have the red wads and they are old, but I'm sure they still make them. They would be the WAA12.

[phaessler]

I am working off an old supply of WAA12R's , they have been out of produciton now for about 6 years best I can figure, and while the claybuster equivalent are good for shot loads, the resin they use lacks for a slug load, it tears easily.
The WAA12 cup is Indentical to the WAA12R only the height of the cushion is different.
I have also found that the straight-type hulls perform alot more consistent than the tapered-type AA hulls, regardless of 2.75" or 3.00"

Already done it with a grind to fit Tomcat, also like a long length of pull on my rifles so it worked nicely on all accounts.

No range time today, but will be out soon trying the 100yd tests.

Pete

[tomcat388th]

This is my pet load for my 12 ga USH
Federal gold medal 2 ¾ hull
Win 209 primer
45 grains of blue dot powder
Federal 12s4 brown wad with holes punched in petal slits I use a fiskar brand handheld hole punch. The holes in theory should let the wad peel off the slug faster
lyman slug cast out of wheel weights with the edges knurled on a file and backfilled with hotmelt glue. Their tackdrivers out of my gun shooting off my sticks at 83 yards I can usually keep them inside a 3 inch circle off the bench cloverleaf groups. Most of these tips came from the guys over on shotgunworld's slug forum (Neophyte,Eyeshot,Turbo1889) they helped me along when I first started casting and working up loads. Sites like this one have kept me from reinventing the wheel. Here's a pic of the wad with holes.
Justin
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh141/tomcat388th/wad.jpg

[phaessler]

Good looking set-up there Tomcat, I have a bunch of Gold Medal hulls, and will definently try them with the 12s4 wads. I read about the knurling helping the wad maintain a spinning grip on the slug. The holes seem practical, I have found my USH shreds the petals 9 out of 10 times, but it doesnt seem to have an effect on accuracy.
Will get some pics up of my set-up soon.

Pete

[big boar]

I've never heard of using glue in the Lyman slug. Can you direct me to any articles on this, sounds interesting. Just this year I've found that after using this slug, for the last 10 years, I was better off using pure Pb and not WW, at least in my 870. I had ok results with WW but when I started running out of them had to resort to using Pb+small amount of Tin. Huge increase in accuracy, hope it wasn't just a one time thing. By the way my load uses WAA12R wads, I was unaware they are not produced anymore, better see if I can locate some soon. Thanks for the info, this site is great.

[tomcat388th]

Big Boar
It was a tip from one of the guys over on shotgun world it to keep the wad from shoving up into the hollow base of the slug and cutting off the petals. He uses bartop epoxy to fill his. He first sprays the cavity with pledge to act as a release agent then fills with the epoxy. He likes the little epoxy cones to be loose so they fall out during he shot.
I used epoxy for awhile worked fine but had trouble with it curing sometimes I'm sure it was my measuring of the 2 parts. I started using hot melt glue after that. In the begining I was flooding the cavity with spray silicone to act as release agent then pop the cones so they would be loose. Now I don't even bother I fill it up flush or just a touch over. After they've cooled if its humped up to high get a sheet of 60grit sand paper lay it on a table top and sand it flush with the base. only takes a couple of swipes.

Phaessler
In my opinon if the accuracy is there I wouldn't get to hung up on the wads just keep an eye out for leading. I polished the forcing cone on mine which helped but it will still shred a wad here and there. If you get some leading take a copper choreboy scouring pad wrap some of it around a brush for a tight fit in the barrel it'll clean it right out. Just make sure it copper there some knock off copper colored steel ones. I buy mine at dollar general store not sure what brand they are but i always check them with a magnet to be sure.
Justin

[longbow]

Out of curiosity, have any of you that are using the Lyman sabot slug recovered any?

So far every hollow base slug I have shot and recovered has belled and/or collapsed enough to distort it.

This includes:

- Lyman Foster
- Rapine 730560
- Rapine 660500
- slugs from home made moulds with up to 0.100" thick skirts
- oven heat treated slugs

I have tried cushion wad legs, fiber wads, hard card wads, glue filled cavities and combinations of glue filled, thick skirt and oven heat treated.

Oops! One exception ~ a Dixie Tusker which did not distort and I am sure could have been loaded again. However, accuracy from a smoothbore was not very good. This slug was designed for rifled barrels though.

I recently recovered a Lyman sabot slug shot by someone else and it was collapsed as well, but quite evenly as far as I coud tell.

My slug testing has all been with smoothbore and generally with a moderate load of Blue Dot.

I have decided to pursue something more like a Brenneke with solid body and attached basewad.

Just wondering what others have found. I cannot see how consistent accuracy is possible if the slug deforms while firing unless the deformation is symmetrical and exactly the same each time.

If your slugs are not distorting then why are mine?

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Longbow could it be that you need to polish and lengthen your forcing cones.
This is the only time it could get distorted!
Simply buy a brake cylinder honing tool for under $ 8 from an auto part store will not only polish your forcing cones but will lengthen also. Try putting a .170 or .250 darker nitro card under the slug for a firmer base.
Hope this helps.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[tomcat388th]

I'll try and did some out of my bank over Thanksgiving to see what they look like. I think one of the keys to accuracy is a good stable wad colum. Thats one reason i prefer the federal wads over winchester. I've done similar loads to phaessler by cutting out the legs from a win aa red wad and substituting 3 .125 nitrocards. It would be red powder cup 3cards and slug in the red shotcup. I've gotten excellent accuracy out of my rifled barrell ush. I would think the skirt on the lyman slug going to flare/bell out some during the shot. The hardness of the lead might limit how much it flares. My slugs are cast out of wheelweights and water quenched I have shot them into trees and dug them out the skirts tend to fragment going through that but the nose stays fairly intack
Happy Thanksgiving
Justin

[big boar]

I've only tested my Lyman sabots in soaking wet phone books but think it gives a fairly good comparison for penetration, especially when done using commercial slugs in the same medium. The Lymans penetrated about the same amount (5", not much more at 50yds) as Win BRI sabots, and 2 brands of Rem(?) Although the skirt did shed, the hole size and depth didn't seem to give any advantage to the other sabots tried.
Tomcat and Vdomemorie, have either of you had any problems with Lymans in Rem870s with the cantelever scope mounts on the barrel? I've let other guys shoot the sabots and all have been fairly successful, one guy could even hit a 8x10"steel plate at 100yds 9/10 times offhand. 2 guys, both with the cantelever system, had bad leading. I figured there may be a constriction in the barrel at the c'lever causing the wad to shed and allow the sabot to smear lead up the rest of the barrel. Just wondering if anyone else has had this occur?

[tomcat388th]

Big Boar I no experiance with a cantelever barell. Dad used to shoot some of my lyman reduced loads in his 870 smoothbore and a saddle mount red dot sight.Comparable to a foster slug for accuracy they were good enough for deer to about 70yards.
Justin

[phaessler]

Ok, here are some pictures of what I am using.
1) a glue filled Lyman slug. Hot glue trimmed flush, with minimal air pockets.
Centerfire shooting breeds habits I cant break I am sorry, I weigh everything and seperate them out religiously.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/glufilled.jpg

2) the seals and wad cup showing how it gets inserted.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/components.jpg

3) an assembled round
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/3incomploaded.jpg

The slugs are cast out of wheel weights, dropped onto a wet towel. I have learned to make alot (150+) of anything you want to test when it comes to casting.
I have no idea the hardness, and the only one I ever recovered was from an old stump, to deformed to tell anything , nor did it matter at the time :)

Ths standard book load shot ok out of my Mossberg 500 w/rifled barrel, but no where near as accurate as the USH seems to be. Even with shimming the mossberg.

Trying to plan some range time to get the 100yd results up. Hunting and holidays are getting in the way.

Hope all have a great Thanksgiving.
Pete

[big boar]

Phaessler, great photos. I just use the WAA12R wads as is, did you find better results using an aftermarket seal? If you're already using the glue in the base why bother with the extra work modifying the gas seal? Thanks a lot for the info on the glue, I'm going to try that as I just cast some this morn. I'll load 1/2 with glue and 1/2 w/o just to give a fair trial. Happy Thanksgiving to all south of the boarder.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Phaessler the OB 12 gas seal where can I buy them from.
Thanks
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

I have tried alot of 2 3/4" combinations, and was actually interested in getting the wad/slug package out past the "throat" of this particular barrel. I had feared the throat was stripping the wad from the slug, letting the slug bounce down the barrel, thus killing accuracy.
So I switched to a 3"hull, where the crimp would open at the throat. In doing so I was also switching from a tapered hull (AA's) to a straight hull (Fiocchi). The tapered hull wads have a small base seal diameter and allow a considerable amount of blow-by, i.e. lost pressures. when used in a straight case. The straight case wads/seals are tight to seat in a tapered hull and my raise pressures to rapidly.
I also switched from the cushion bases of the AA type wads as they were sort of weak and appeared to collapse to the point of failure (total compression) on the recovered wads, and in doing so I noticed also the cushion column also compress at an angle, not squarely against the wad cup. The gas seal / flex seal combination I am trying now allows me to get the "stack height" necessary for a good crimp, and fits seemingly well inside the hull. It also seems to apply the pressure/force of the powder squarely to the bottom of the slug, which hopefully will transmit to straight and true flight.
Noting also there are smaller holes in the lower left of most of my 50yd targets, .30-.40 dia, which I believe to be the glue which was ejected from the slug bottom. Slug recovery at this point is futile, and bad enough I spend 10 minutes or so between groups looking for wads.
Hope this helps.

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/wads1.jpg
The left side wad is a flex seal and whats left of the AA cup. This one was also glue filled and doesnt exhibit the "stuffing" of itself into the rear of the slug.
The right side wad is a std AA red wad leaning to the left shows how deep (approx 0.125") it was forced into the rear of the slug upon firing.
Have alot of these recovered wads and right side is pretty tpical for me when used withoug glue, accuracy is pretty poor. Where as the left wad is fairly recent to include the seal stack and glue, this was recovered from group 3 of the targets on post #1. Both are missing the petals.

Ajay, I picked the seals up from Precision and Ballistic Products, they are made in Italy by Gualdini, just an FYI.

[Duhawki]

I have an Ultraslug in 20 gauge and the Lyman mold for the 350 grain slug that looks just like the heavier one for the 12 gauge. I have not shot any yet. Are any of you guys into 20 gauge?
Regards,
Duhawki

[phaessler]

Hey Duhawki, after seeing how things performs, I am looking for a 20ga now for my son, I would safely assume you could apply these same principles to the 20ga, using the correct/recommended powder charges of course.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings and a Happy Thanksgiving to you Phaessler. Can I suggest you please put a thick .250 or .170 darker nitro card between your gas seal and flex seal and then your shot cup and another nitro card of .125 right under your slug to keep the slug from digging into the base of the slug and to help transmit the driving forces of the powder gases evenly to the slugs edges
of the base. This should further shrink your group size and help with accuracy.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Thanks Ajay, but the groups tell all here. I have eliminated the cups being buried into the rear of the slug via hot glue, and its working. I only want to work on the 100yd results now.
Must be why Lee went to a drive key design? spread the force out over the bottom of the slug. Anyone try them yet ?
Also one needs to remember that the wads were using here were designed for shot, and alot of the surface area inside the "shot cup" bottom is occupied by shot, thus spreading the load out {At least in theory}
I have abandoned the use of nitro cards unless I get drastic failures in accuracy at this point. I do have an interest in felt wads though....replacing the order of the gas seal/felx seal combo with a flex seal/felt wad combo.
Really sidetracked on this project can you tell....waiting on a few molds for some centerfire stuff has put me on a tangent.
Funny thing is I put a "cheap"($30) scope on and it still is working after 120 rounds of shooting, it has far exceeded its expected life span. Probably just jinxed it though.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Phaessler I do have the Lee Drive key slug mould but since the time I bought it I have failed to cast a single slug with ww as it would not release it. I have tried smoking it. Last time I polished the base pins but did not bother to cast yet. Its a 1oz 12 gauge mould.
What brand and model scope you have?
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Ajay, have you tried the Frankford Arsenal release agent? A little-dab-will-do-ya. I am curious to know how they perform, as opposed to an oversive airgun pellet.;)

Pete

[turbo1889]

I have an Ultraslug in 20 gauge and the Lyman mold for the 350 grain slug that looks just like the heavier one for the 12 gauge. I have not shot any yet. Are any of you guys into 20 gauge?
Regards,
Duhawki




Hey Duhawki, after seeing how things performs, I am looking for a 20ga now for my son, I would safely assume you could apply these same principles to the 20ga, using the correct/recommended powder charges of course.

Pete


I wish that were true, IME (In My Experience) the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug is a whole different kind of animal then the Lyman 12ga. slug. I couldn't get the 20ga. version to settle down and group tight for me no matter what I tried. And believe me I tried every trick in the book as far as what's recommended for the 12ga. version.

If you want to load a wad slug style slug load in your 20ga. the Lyman #575494 mold or the Lee 575-470M mold are your best choices.

The Lyman #575494 weighs in at 315 grains or so, which means you can load it on top of a 28ga. nitro card or two inside a Fed 20S1 wad with the same load data as for the Lyman 350gr. 20ga. wad-slug without a hitch as lower weight means lower pressure levels --- as an added bonus it also works out of smooth bore 20ga. guns. as it is naturally stable in flight and flies nose first just like a foster slug.

The Lee 575-470M gets loaded the same way only you use 1-1/8 20ga. lead shot field load data to load that one. Or better yet work up some loads with 2400 powder starting charge being about 35 grains and you can usually carefully work that up another 5 grains at least with the never exceed usually being about 45 grains depending on exactly what combination of components you use. That one like the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug mold is a rifled barrel only proposition because it does need the rifling to stabilize but it stabilizes and flies a lot straighter then the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug.

Or best of all just order yourself up a 20ga. full bore solid mold from mountainmolds.com and get the best possible performance from a slug gun for deer out there. A 20ga. NEF-USH with full bore cast solids that look like overgrown revolver boolits on top of a full load of Reloader-17 powder in a 3" hull with a short but tight roll crimp will produce one of the flattest shooting and longest possible effective range deer slug guns possible. Doing something similar it's possible to build more powerful loads with the 12ga. But for deer you don't need that much brawn.

For the slug design, 20ga. rifled slug gun bores run between 0.615" to 0.625" with most being on the upper end of that size spectrum. Either slug your bore or order a 0.625" size and don't cast them with anything harder then a WW alloy water dropped. Minimum weight for a good diameter to length ratio (assuming your not going to have the mold hollow pointed by Erik at hollowpointmold.com after MM cuts it) is about 350 grains with an aggressive SWC type shape like the Lyman #575494 has all the way up to a maximum sensible weight of about 500 grains. When designing the mold it's important to leave a "step" on the nose for the roll crimp to tighten up against and not make the nose too long so as to stick out of the end of the hull. The easiest way to make that step with MM's design program is to choose the "Bore Riding Truncated Cone" nose style and then set the bore rider diameter to as low as it will go and the bore riding length to "0.001" (step)" with no crimp groove.

Basically:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2008-11-27_211251_Slug_Design_Do___Don't.JPG

And you should end up with something that looks like this:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-11-26_125715_20ga_Full_Bore_Slug_Design_Examples.GIF

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-03-01_173219_20ga_Solid_450gr_Slug.JPG

[phaessler]

Reading Turbo1889's notes here on the 20ga has me intrigued now, I can feel the urge to get one in 20ga, shooting "overgrown revolver boolits", going to make me spend money again , telling you coming here is the worst thing for my allowance.
But I can see a 2400 load would definently be ballistically efficient, not to mention fun, from getting a mold made to figuring out roll crimping.... cany anyone say "Spring Project".

Would even be curious to see if lubing it would be worth anything, tuble lube 20-30 of them things.

Great artwork!!

Pete

[big boar]

Ajay, I've used release stuff in my Lee mold but found that the best way to get it to release was to just keep casting till it gets REAL hot. If you ladle pour just pour over the "stuck" slug and recast. It does take time perhaps 10-12 casts or more but I've found even with my Lyman mold I have to get it really hot to release well.
Phaessler, thanks again for the photos, they really explain well. I'm going to try the glue in the base but think I'll stick with the WAA12R wad as is to see if it prevents ruining the wad. You've got lots of info slug stuff, have you ever thought of using a 20ga in a 12 just using a built up wad to contain the slug? Should work, they do it for muzzle stuffers.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Big Boar and Phaessler I will try your idea. I had almost given up on it.
I just got a new mold that I am very anxious to try maybe tommorow then I'll give Lee another chance.
Thank you.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[Duhawki]

Thanks for the posts Turbo1889 and Phaessler. I'm not sure why Lyman made a knockoff of an airgun pellet; so, I like the idea of the Lyman 575494 and the Lee 575470, but I'll spend a little bit of time on the Lyman slug. I'm inclined to mold wax pieces to surround the O.D. I'm also inclined to modify the core pin for support of the skirt. I'll be careful not to infringe the Lee patent.
Regards,
Duhawki

[turbo1889]

Thanks for the posts Turbo1889 and Phaessler. I'm not sure why Lyman made a knockoff of an air gun pellet; so, I like the idea of the Lyman 575494 and the Lee 575470, but I'll spend a little bit of time on the Lyman slug. I'm inclined to mold wax pieces to surround the O.D. I'm also inclined to modify the core pin for support of the skirt. I'll be careful not to infringe the Lee patent.
Regards,
Duhawki

The fact that the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug mold is "knockoff of an air gun pellet" is not the problem. Their 12ga. mold is the same way and it works just fine. Where Lyman went wrong with the 20ga. and not the 12ga. is the length to diameter ratio. The 12ga. version is short and squatty and the 20ga. version is long and slender. In order for a hollow base projectile to have natural positive stability in flight certain parameters must be met and if you make it too long and slender with a center of mass that isn't far enough forward the proverbial turd hits the proverbial fan.

Now, one could say, "So what, if it's fired out of a rifled slug barrel it positive natural stability don't mean squat one way or the other." For a tight fitting full bore diameter slug or a tight fitting strong thick sabot that is true. However, a shot wad, even the Federal brand ones which are about the best of the best for wad-slugs still make a very pore sabot. It is entirely possible for a slug designed like the Lyman with only two contact points at the front and the rear combined with imperfections in the wad used and the fact it’s made of fairly soft plastic to always be just a little bit of kilter inside the wad during almost every shot. For a slug with natural positive stability the resulting potential inaccuracies from such a situation get off-set by the fact that the slug will self stabilize during flight and "the wrinkles get ironed out" so to speak. Now if you lose that natural positive stability then the little inconsistencies don't get ironed out and show up on the target board.

That is why the Lyman 575494 shots better inside a 20ga. shot wad then the 20ga. Lyman over grown air gun pellet wad-slug. The reason the Lee 575-470M works is because unlike the Lyman it doesn't have just two contact points front and rear but nice flat sides that contact the wad all the way from nose to tail and help keep things lined up better. It also has more natural stability then the Lyman wad-slug. It's doesn't have positive stability like the Lyman 575494 but it isn't near as bad as the Lyman 20ga. wad-slug mold.

Long story short, knowing what I know now, if I were to start fiddling with the Lyman 20ga. wad slug right now I'd try to find a way to fill up the dip in the middle and make the sides flat all the way from the nose to the tail. This could be done by boring out the mold but then it would make the slug much heavier. Maybe a thin walled length of metal tubing where the inside diameter was a tight slip fit for the Lyman 20ga. slug and then drill a small hole in the side. Put the slug inside so the hole lined up with the wasp waist of the Lyman slug and then inject epoxy into the hole with a syringe and let it dry and then use a dowel and mallet to pop the slug out of the tube by a few raps applied to its flat nose. Use a small nail to clean the injection hole and then repeat.

Of course one could do a permanent fix by having a custom mold cut by one of the custom mold cutting outfits that do hollow base nose pore molds and keep the same basic "over grown air gun pellet" design but do it right this time and make it short and squatty like the Lyman 12ga. version is. I have no doubt that such a version would then equal the 12ga. version in accuracy provided the same tricks of the trade were applied as is done with the 12ga. version.

Just some ramblin thoughts.

[big boar]

Turbo, if the Lyman 20 is "long and slender" AND it has a hollow base, how could it NOT have a "weight forward" centre of mass. If you take a length of lead and make a hollow base in it does it not follow that it MUST have a centre of mass towards the solid (front)end? Just a question, sounds like you really know yer stuff. Thanks, Brian

[turbo1889]

It's not that it doesn't have a weight forward design, it's that the longer you make a projectile compared to it's diameter the more extreme the weight forward design needs to be to make it have natural positive stability.

Actually that's not completely true. A ration of length to diameter of 1:1 is the definition of the point of neutral stability. The farther you go from that point in either direction (longer and more slender or even shorter and even stubbier) the more extreme your weight forward design needs to be. For example lets say in a 1:1 projectile a 60% nose heavy configuration will produce adequate stability (center of balance is at 60% of length measuring from the base/tail of the projectile). Now let’s lengthen that projectile out to a 1.25:1 or shorten it to a 1:1.25 projectile. Now our 60% weight distribution is no longer adequate now we need something more like 70% nose heavy. Take it even further to 1.5:1 or 1:1.5 and even that isn't enough. Get up to 2:1 or 1:2 and beyond and things get really dicey unless you start adding extra drag fins that stick out beyond the main projectiles diameter (like a rocket or an arrow). Those numbers aren’t exact and they never could be because a lot of other factors come into play as well. But the basic principle applies and I think you get what I'm saying. At a certain point making a completely lead hollow base projectile longer only makes things worse no matter how deep you make the hollow point or thin down the skirt walls. It just doesn't work unless you switch to using a much lower density material for the tail section such as plastic (example attached base wad style slugs).

Since usually people don't attempt to make bullets that are shorter then they are around (think pan-cakes) I usually refer to this as a one way relationship with making the slug longer, but it does apply in both directions and I think you get what I'm saying. Believe me I've fought this factor long and hard with my heavy weight 410 slug experiments and prototype designs.

[BIG GUN]

My standard load in the ultra is a Win. AA with a 525 made of range scrap over 45G of Blue Dot. I get 1-1/2-2min groups but I run a fine wire ss brush down the bore after every round dry to clean out the plastic from the WW12R wad.
The plastic builds up fast and using a solvent liquifies it.
I am using a 4 power Norinco scope and it has survived 100's of rounds.
I have picked up 1250 red wads at various gun shows for around $3.00/250

[phaessler]

Well, got 20 rds loaded of the 3", figured out the primer poket thing pretty quickly , thank goodness, and hopefully going to the range Monday morning. Deer season is in pause mode in my home county, but running full-bore one county over, so might go to the range or might hunt ... oh the choices :) . Might be hunted out and return to R&D projects by next week.

Sounds good Big Gun, as a former New Englander (CT) I always wondered what Mass residents did for gun shows. I used to travel thru to hunt NH and VT, and never felt easy doing it. I had a Nikon on my Mossberg and it died before the 100rd mark, got a Wally World Tasco on my Ultra, and so far so good.

Pete

[BIG GUN]

Ajay, have you tried the Frankford Arsenal release agent? A little-dab-will-do-ya. I am curious to know how they perform, as opposed to an oversive airgun pellet.;)

Pete

I have both the Lee key and the Lyman 525. Lee say's to use pure lead and they mean it. They are tough to get off the mold due to the two fingers that form the key. I cast a few hundred and loaded a few boxes in AA hulls using a charge of 35G of Universal. Accuracy stunk. Using the 525G airgun pellet made of indoor range scrap,[pretty much pure lead] in AA hulls with the WW12R wad over 45G Blue Dot I get sub 2" grps at 100 yds. with my ultra slug with a 4 power Norinco scope.
GET THE LYMAN!

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello finally I followed your advice and I now have the slugs.
Thanks.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Cool Ajay... load em' up. Run them hot ? Softer alloy? Spray?

Pete

[phaessler]

Well, without an excuses I managed to get some 100yd results. Much to my suprise are the results.
These were shot from a bench same as the 50yd targets. The bore was cleaned before the first shot on each group. Loads were assembled in the same fashion as previously tested.
New hulls, same lot of BlueDot, slugs were also cast at the same time.

44gn load is shown here with the first shot out of a clean barrel 2" higher than the other 3 shots, measured at 1.3" ctr to ctr on the furthest shots.
Target again was a 4" square.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/load3_100ydsa.jpg

Next was the 50gn BlueDot. The first shot from the clean barrel is approx. 4" above the group. The remaining 3 shots were lower, suprisingly, and the groups measures 3.3" ctr to ctr on the furthest shots.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/load4_100ydsa-1.jpg

Amazingly the 50gn loads shot lower and the group was spread out almost twice of the 44gn loads. Pretty conclusive to say 50 may be pushing them a bit to hard.
The bright side of things are that I recovered wads and seals which were very much intact, i.e. no missing petals. I also recovered 2 slugs which showed minimal deformation after they were dug out of the bank. I will weigh them and post pics soon.

Where am I going from here, well going to try 44,46, 48 gn BlueDot loads to confirm where the groups open up and work backwards to tighten them up, I need to readjust my POI, and maybe try new powder.
Overall pretty pleased with it, and have answered alot of my own questions. And made some observations which even suprised me.

Oh, and the best part was a guy shooting a NEW 870 with Rem Green tip sabots, he was thrilled with a 3" group at 50yds, until I let him try my Ultra at 50. ;)

Pete

[peter nap]

Lookin good Pete.

I'm wondering what 2400 would do since the 50 grains of Blue Dot seems to be blowing the group a little.

[phaessler]

2400 would be a good place to start if I switch powder, the BlueDot loads are ok, but as in my .44Mag loads, its has violent ignition tendecies. Was thinking Universal, or Herco perhaps.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings to you all. Phaessler the next powder should be A.Steel as its only one notch slower than Blue Dot. Very interesting finding that with 50 grs of Blue Dot your groups are larger because the powder is not fully burning in this case and you might have noticed a difference in the recoil due to that.
Now just for your reference I am mentioning some 2400 powder loads for Brenneke slugs from way back.
3" Fed plastic Fed 209 Blue Dot 45gr 1525fps 10,400Lup Roll crimp
3" Rem " Rem 97* H.2400 56.5gr 1525fps 10.000 " " "
3" Win CF Win 209 H.2400 57.5gr 1525fps 9,400 " " "
2 3/4 Win CF Win 209 Herco 37gr 1570fps 9,700 " " "
These loads were with nitro cards and fiber filler wads.
Just for your reference only.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Well the data you posted is interesting Ajay, I am not sure what not full burning would mean with the 50gn load, as it is not leaving any unburnt powder residue in the barrel or the hull. But the 50gn load , upon cleaning the rifle, has alot of plastic residue, being from the wad/seal package I am using. Fortunately I dont mind shooting this thing...its kind of fun.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Phaessler usually 50 gr of Blue Dot does not get all burned up in shorter barrels. If you put a white sheet on the ground in front of you ,you could easily see if any unburned powder is being spitted out the barrel unburned. Also what primer you use will play a big role in that too. The Fed 209 A will help as it is hot.
50 grains of Blue Dot in a 3" hull is giving you 1700 fps velocity and 45 grains of Blue Dot in
2 3/4 inch hull Fed 12C1 wad around 1500 fps.
Wileyhunter sells the above loaded slugs to hunters
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Very interesting Ajay, never thought of the sheet trick, have used it before while developing some Ackley centerfire loads. WIll have to see, typically in my Mossberg the 50gn load leaves powder flakes in the hull, barrel, and on the bench when you eject the spent round.
I am using new Fiocchi hulls, the 616 primer they come with seems ok, but I agree the Fed 209A is probably warmer, and more consistent.
What I did notice on the 50gn loads, was where the ejector slot is in the barrel, the brass, although high, had expanded to fill the slot, never saw that before so I am sure pressures are up there, or the hull brass lacks integrity. I found this today, while cleaning out my bags from yesterday. I will take some pictures tommorrow, while it rains again.
Great data there, sort of afraid to use my chrony, lost one last year trying to chrony slug load. The wad hit the first sensor and wiped it out. Need to fabricate a plywood shield with a window to shoot thru.
I see this project hanging around for a bit. I still want to try out a few different loads, powders, hulls, cards etc. This is only the tip of it I am afraid.

Pete

[peter nap]

Very interesting Ajay, never thought of the sheet trick, have used it before while developing some Ackley centerfire loads. WIll have to see, typically in my Mossberg the 50gn load leaves powder flakes in the hull, barrel, and on the bench when you eject the spent round.
I am using new Fiocchi hulls, the 616 primer they come with seems ok, but I agree the Fed 209A is probably warmer, and more consistent.
What I did notice on the 50gn loads, was where the ejector slot is in the barrel, the brass, although high, had expanded to fill the slot, never saw that before so I am sure pressures are up there, or the hull brass lacks integrity. I found this today, while cleaning out my bags from yesterday. I will take some pictures tommorrow, while it rains again.
Great data there, sort of afraid to use my chrony, lost one last year trying to chrony slug load. The wad hit the first sensor and wiped it out. Need to fabricate a plywood shield with a window to shoot thru.
I see this project hanging around for a bit. I still want to try out a few different loads, powders, hulls, cards etc. This is only the tip of it I am afraid.

Pete

The brass flow would concern me Pete. I've shot considerably more than 50 grains in mine but I believe my combo was so leaky, it was blowing a lot of pressure around the gas seal.

Darn shotshells are hard to read. Certainly not like rifle brass. The times I've gotten obvious pressure signs like that, it was just a tick away from case failure.

[phaessler]

Me too Peter, they are tough to read pressure indications, darn plastic, otherwise I would have shrugged it off. I many a time have pushed the pressure envelope on a centerfire load, flattened primers,flow-back on primers, blown-out shoulders, ejector marks on the case heads, the full deal developing some Ackley data. But this is a definite sign, not sure if its how I interpruted the data from Lyman's manual.
Of course the data for tapered hulls is drastically different than for straight hulls, as the pressure curves are different. So I most likely overlooked this, but they ejected fine, and the primers while a little flat around where the pin hits, they are nowhere near flattened. I will need to see what else I missed, now. And perhaps I will come up with something a little less powder consuming than the 50gn, and more efficent with lower pressures.
I thought centerfire rifle was tough....

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Pete and Peter here is some thing I want you to read just for reference only by:
Turbo 1889 Yes, the Alliant Steel powder is bulky and don't meter. But that doesn't matter for me because I individually weigh out all my slug load charges any-way. For 12ga. slug load development I usually start with Blue Dot and work the load up till I get sticky extraction then switch to an equal grain charge of Steel powder and fiddle with the load some more to get it where I want it.
I can vouch for, Steel, that it works correctly down to about -20 F. Yah, I know, I'm nuts to be out on the range in such weather; but I always seem to have the range completely to myself on days like that.
This is from another forum.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Hmm, interesting, will be looking into aquiring some I think. Not concerned with velocity so much as pressure, repeatablity. Temperature here is by no means an issue, it rarely gets "cold", I am from New England originally, and I know what cold can do to load data.
Too much to think on now... but could be worse.
thanks again Ajay, whats the other forum? should I be reading more of it ??

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Moring Pete I am posting a link but it got a little nasty with one fellow trying to be a freak.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=196961
Every day is a new day and we all learn each day.
Ajay Madan
www./PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[peter nap]

Ajay, in your post there, you said:

The sabot arms ( petals ) bend them back flat on a table so that they are sure to open rapidly and release the bullet.

I have been using a pipe cutter to score a ring at the base of my sabots. The ones I've recovered were folded back perfectly.

This works well (and was the reason I started doing it) on the Precision Reloading Steel wads that I cut down for the Lyman slug.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good Morning Peter I like your ideas and look forwards to more creative stuff from you. I consider you a friend and a good friend.
When you buy another 100 acres then Pete and I will visit your farm to hunt one day.
At the end of that post it got a little nasty Please dont mind that for I'm still your and Pete's friend.
Please tell me if I was wrong or if you would have dealt it any differently than I did?
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[tommygirlMT]

<snip>

What I did notice on the 50gn loads, was where the ejector slot is in the barrel, the brass, although high, had expanded to fill the slot, never saw that before so I am sure pressures are up there, or the hull brass lacks integrity.

<snip>

Great data there, sort of afraid to use my chrony, lost one last year trying to chrony slug load. The wad hit the first sensor and wiped it out. Need to fabricate a plywood shield with a window to shoot thru.

<snip>


The brass flow would concern me Pete. I've shot considerably more than 50 grains in mine but I believe my combo was so leaky, it was blowing a lot of pressure around the gas seal.

Darn shotshells are hard to read. Certainly not like rifle brass. The times I've gotten obvious pressure signs like that, it was just a tick away from case failure.


Me too Peter, they are tough to read pressure indications, darn plastic, otherwise I would have shrugged it off. I many a time have pushed the pressure envelope on a centerfire load, flattened primers,flow-back on primers, blown-out shoulders, ejector marks on the case heads, the full deal developing some Ackley data. But this is a definite sign, not sure if its how I interpruted the data from Lyman's manual.
Of course the data for tapered hulls is drastically different than for straight hulls, as the pressure curves are different. So I most likely overlooked this, but they ejected fine, and the primers while a little flat around where the pin hits, they are nowhere near flattened. I will need to see what else I missed, now. And perhaps I will come up with something a little less powder consuming than the 50gn, and more efficent with lower pressures.
I thought centerfire rifle was tough....

Pete

First, with shotguns by the time the primer is flattened the gun is already blown up unless it's a really, really tough gun. The NEF-USH is a really tough gun but it's not a really, really tough gun.

Second, the bulge in the hull brass base where the extractor is --- that is a significant and prominent pressure sign for a shotgun load. It's right up there with loads that stick in the barrel and refuse to eject and you have to tap them out from the muzzle with a dowel. DO NOT IGNORE THIS Depending on the gun/hull when you start getting too hot either you will get this pressure sign or sticky extraction first. Both at the same time is next and the gun blowing up is after that. Sometimes you will get a slight bulge with full pressure but not over pressure loads in some guns --- especially 410-bore 3" and 12ga. 3-1/2" which are the two highest max pressure on common shotgun cartridge sizes.

To diferentiate between having a maximum and a too hot load for sure you need to find a near maximum pressure book load receipe for the exact same hulls your are loading your experimental loads in. Load up about five rounds of that maximum pressure published book load in the exact same hulls you are using for your experimental loads. Match the type and number of loads so far for sure, better yet if they came from the same box, bag, or lot. Fire them in the same gun and then compare bulges. If your experimental loads have bigger bulges --- BACK OFF!

As far as Chrony protection --- 1/4" to 1/2" steel plate mounted at a 45-degree angle leaning so that a hit gets deflected upwards is much better then ply-wood. Believe me I know --- You want to make tommygirlMT sweat? Tell her you want proof of a slugs true B.C. and suggest she get it be measuring the difference in velocity over range which involves putting her Chrony down range to measure the velocity way out there. Believe me looking through your sights at that expensive piece of equipment way out there knowing if your shot hits more then 4" low it's toast --- that will make anyone sweat. It will make you cry too when you do mess up the shot --- unless you have a tough enough sheild, and plywood ain't it.

[phaessler]

Believe me I know --- You want to make tommygirlMT sweat? Tell her you want proof of a slugs true B.C. and suggest she get it be measuring the difference in velocity over range which involves putting her Chrony down range to measure the velocity way out there. Believe me looking through your sights at that expensive piece of equipment way out there knowing if your shot hits more then 4" low it's toast --- that will make anyone sweat. It will make you cry too when you do mess up the shot --- unless you have a tough enough sheild, and plywood ain't it.

Well Tommygirl or whoever, I feel plywood would be just fine for muzzle velocity on a slug, and would more than suffice to stop a wad, especially at 10 feet, the wads are recovered between 20-25 feet consistently. Muzzle velocity and downrange velocity are two different animals, and you can get one from the other with a little math. I would never think of stting up a down range chrony, especially when operating on a budget.
As far as pressure signs go, I belive I have plenty of experience in pressure signs, MAX loads, and sticky bolts etc etc etc. Stating a mere observation here seems to set off alarms of intelligencec and I feel if you are playing the game, you need to know the rules, and the consequences.
The 50gn data as I have already stated is for use in a tapered hull, of which is known to be less pressure efficient than a straight hull. I would really like to see more people out here post more tangible data and less assumptions/statements.
Enough of my rant.
Have loaded up the next batch of 44, 45, and 46 gn this evening, hopefully the rain will let up enough to test tommorrow.
Will keep y'all posted.

Pete

[peter nap]

Have loaded up the next batch of 44, 45, and 46 gn this evening, hopefully the rain will let up enough to test tommorrow.
Will keep y'all posted.

Pete

Good Luck Pete. I was thinking of hunting tomorrow and that usually means rain.:smile:

Forecast is for clear though.

If I get a chance this weekend, I may give 2400 another try. Ed Hubel had ignition problems but Turbo didn't...if I remember right.

[tommygirlMT]

phaessler,

On the pressure thing --- I wasn't trying to insult you, I was honestly concerned, pressure signs in shotguns and pressure signs in rifles are not the same.

On the down range Chrony thing --- Yes, if you know a bullets B.C. you can indeed just do the math to figure down range velocity and energy. However, if you don't know the B.C. you e-mail the mold manufacture and they admit "they don't have that information available" and just give you an educated guess the only way to accuratly determine the B.C. is to measure the projectiles velocity at two different points in it's flight path. The farther appart those two points are the more accurate will by the experimentally determined B.C. The manufactures do something very similar under significantly more controlled conditions (fixed/mounted pressure guns with known down range impact points) to come up with the most accurate B.C. for their bullets. I'm not talking about shielding the slug just from wads and other debree, I'm talking about completely shielding the Chrony to protect against even a direct hit with a way-ward slug regardless of whether it be operator error or a flier produced by component failures.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings here's yet another good post about Lyman 525 slug.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=127716
Hope you will enjoy it.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Too windy to play today, hoping for a calm clear Monday. Will work on getting some post test pics up, i.e. hulls, slugs, wads. Need to spend the time doing it.

Pete

[peter nap]

I hunted today and might as well have gone to the range.
I just loaded some with RE17 and a few with 2400.

I'm going to try a few with 45 grains of Blue Dot and your wad configuration. I'd sure like to get my groups as tight as yours.

This could be a lifes work...but sure is fun.

[phaessler]

Ok, well finally took the time to take some pictures ofthe recovered components from shooting.
http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/ss257/sharps20000/50_recov_comp.jpg
These were recovered the 50gn BlueDot loads, the hull is shown to illustrate the deformity at the ejector location. The ejector bulge measures 0.008" in height. I have loaded a new batch for shooting tommorrow , if the weather holds out. Going to substitue some Remington hulls, as well as some Winchester, both appear to be a straight hull design upon disection (was a tearful event to cut good hulls), as well as the brass being almost twice the thickness of the Fiocchi hull.

The slug, without glue weighed in at 518gn, it was recovered from the 200yd berm, it obviously hit something in the berm and is smeared over in the 9-12 oclock postion. But it weighs 510gn. now.

Other components look good, minimal scorching, and clean cut rifling marks. As well as the wad petals are intact and rifle marked also.

Pete

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Pete your picture above tells a good happy story. If I were you I would back off another 2 grains for safety. Can you please mention if FS12 flex seal was at on top of the powder or
Obturator 12 wad as it held up very well!
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Managed to get out this morning for a little shooting. Was interesting to see the other hulls performance, or lack of. Remington hulls were reused buckshot hulls, loaded with 44gn BlueDot and the identical set of components I have been using all along, groups were 2" at 100yds, and alot of unburnt powder. Winchesters were reused hulls from 2's, origin unknown, but the groups were horrible 4"+ with an identical set of components/charge. Both hulls were 3", Remington a 6pt fold, Winchester an 8pt. fold. Not sure how well these hulls are sealing with the two seals/wad I am using, the fit seemed a little looser than with the FIocchi hulls.
Took a chamber cast, and did it take alot of cerrosafe, thought it would never fill. The throat definently needs some polishing, reamer marks are very prominent, and the ejector is 0.010" lower than the chamber, might try refitting it, read something about a spring and shim set-up to help this.
Planning on sending some loaded rounds out for pressure testing after Christmas, will need to get casting though, amazing how quickly you burn thru these things.
Pete

[peter nap]

Managed to get out this morning for a little shooting. Was interesting to see the other hulls performance, or lack of. Remington hulls were reused buckshot hulls, loaded with 44gn BlueDot and the identical set of components I have been using all along, groups were 2" at 100yds, and alot of unburnt powder. Winchesters were reused hulls from 2's, origin unknown, but the groups were horrible 4"+ with an identical set of components/charge. Both hulls were 3", Remington a 6pt fold, Winchester an 8pt. fold. Not sure how well these hulls are sealing with the two seals/wad I am using, the fit seemed a little looser than with the FIocchi hulls.
Took a chamber cast, and did it take alot of cerrosafe, thought it would never fill. The throat definently needs some polishing, reamer marks are very prominent, and the ejector is 0.010" lower than the chamber, might try refitting it, read something about a spring and shim set-up to help this.
Planning on sending some loaded rounds out for pressure testing after Christmas, will need to get casting though, amazing how quickly you burn thru these things.
Pete

I have to admit Pete, this is a good meticulous test.
I'm enjoying it.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Pete you hit the jackpod. With 2 inch groups at 100 yards you cant ask for any more while others can only dream off it. You mentioned unburned powder than all I can say is use Fed 209A primer and you'll need a longer barrel to give it a chance to burn. A 24 inch rifled barrel should help. Please let me know which wad is on top of your powder, Flexseal or the other Obturator 12.
Thank you.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Sorry Ajay, I load them : powder;OB12;FS12;wad cup/slug. I hear the 209A's are hot,and may help out here, but using CCI's now.
Personally I think I might like to try some 2400, just need to sit down and figure out a starting point, and start all over. Oh boy.... But I have had good results switching from BlueDot before in some cast centerfire loads.
Also need to start casting more, picked up another mold and some Lee handles two might make it faster, but tough with the Holiday fast approaching.

Pete

[phaessler]

Managed to cast up almost 150 slug this morning, before the "snow" came. PLenty of time for reloading/gun cleaning now.
Anyone else ?

Pete

[peter nap]

Managed to cast up almost 150 slug this morning, before the "snow" came. PLenty of time for reloading/gun cleaning now.
Anyone else ?

Pete

I patched a hole in my shop roof and split wood. Considering the amount of snow we're getting, I'll get all my guns cleaned tomorrow and maybe a few more cases made.

Got to get out and get some pictures early.

This was our last snow:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa57/peternap/expanded_snow2small.jpg

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Peter either you Stop showing those beautifull pictures or be ready to be a host to us. Great pictures, keep em coming.
Yes you are colorfull and may I add spicy and love to play with guns that kick like a mule.
Peter did you look up and say Thank you?

I'm lucky I found some good friends here to name a few like Pete and Peter
Happy Holidays to you and your near and dear ones.
Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[phaessler]

Very nice pond Peter, ours is quite smaller, but I do enjoy it. Spent the day doing snow removal, even did my neighbors driveway and the road from my house to the main road, gotta love VDOT, only 1.5 miles to the main road, but then drove by and were staring at me.
Loading some more tommorrow, and sending them to Precision Reloading for pressure data.
My new ejector came today, and its 0.004" thicker on the radius where it has been leaving marks on the brass. Looks like a joy to install.

Ajay and Peter, hope y'all have a wonderful and safe holiday season also.
Post you snow totals when you get a chance too.... 16" in the front yard here.

Pete

[peter nap]

Peter did you look up and say Thank you?


Ajay Madan
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

I did Ajay. That's a big compliment coming from a talented photographer like yourself.

Pete, 15" and still going here.

Merry Christmas to you both!

[phaessler]

Well, back to the range this week, deer season behind me , time to get back to business.
Hope all had a great holiday season.

Pete

[Willbird]

Out of curiosity, have any of you that are using the Lyman sabot slug recovered any?

So far every hollow base slug I have shot and recovered has belled and/or collapsed enough to distort it.

This includes:

- Lyman Foster
- Rapine 730560
- Rapine 660500
- slugs from home made moulds with up to 0.100" thick skirts
- oven heat treated slugs

I have tried cushion wad legs, fiber wads, hard card wads, glue filled cavities and combinations of glue filled, thick skirt and oven heat treated.

Oops! One exception ~ a Dixie Tusker which did not distort and I am sure could have been loaded again. However, accuracy from a smoothbore was not very good. This slug was designed for rifled barrels though.

I recently recovered a Lyman sabot slug shot by someone else and it was collapsed as well, but quite evenly as far as I coud tell.

My slug testing has all been with smoothbore and generally with a moderate load of Blue Dot.

I have decided to pursue something more like a Brenneke with solid body and attached basewad.

Just wondering what others have found. I cannot see how consistent accuracy is possible if the slug deforms while firing unless the deformation is symmetrical and exactly the same each time.

If your slugs are not distorting then why are mine?

Longbow

I fired the lyman slugs into fiberfill and what was coming out of the end of the bbl looked nothing like what I cast, it swaged down to a short little lead cylinder that was about 1/2 caliber long. I have seen ones people fired into deer that ended up looking exactly the same. I cast some up out of lino once, they did not distort much at all but they did not shoot well at all from a mossberg rifled bbl.

The whole slug thing would be fun if you could get somebody ELSE to shoot them, shooting those suckers rattles your teeth :-).

Bill

[eye shot]

The ones I use are cast out of #2 bullet aloy or WW not pure lead. At max load of blue dot at 100yds. they don't look distorted at all after getting them from dirt birm.

[phaessler]

I cant comment on the deformation on game, but the two I have used so far, pass throughs, and the game didnt go 10 feet. Its large frontal meplat is like standing in front of a freight train from what I observe.
Too cold to shoot here today, kids back in school, and life returning to normal. Just wish the wind would calm down.
Pete

[tomcat388th]

Most of my deer have been bang flop with the lymans. I've had one deer I had to follow up on and that was my fault. Hit him to far back quartering toward me clipped on lung and the liver. All shots have been pass throughs

[Greg5278]

Judging by the brass deformation, and the Ironing of the crimp, You are way overpressure. You will need to back off more than just 2 grains. The accuracy sounds very good, but you should get the load pressure tested after you back off. Tom Armbrust at Ballistic Reseacrh can test them for you. I would guess you current load is around 15K PSI maybe a touch more.
Please be careful. Maybe try IMR 4759, I use it with a 605gr slug at get high velocity and low pressure. My load uses 64.0 Gr. of IMR 4759 and gives 1555 FPS @ 11,400 PSI
Greg

[phaessler]

Thanks Greg5278, the 50gn loads were real hot, and thus exhibited those first signs of excessive pressure. I have another lot of slug rounds, at different charges, that I plan to send out. Have had excellent sucess with lighter charges, as much as 14% less powder.
I have found that the Fiocchi hulls while new, they offer little in the way of basewad strength and support, and even down to 38-40gn BlueDot loads, they deformed into the ejector area.
I will be posting the data as soon as I get them sent out, curious myself, but sidetracked with my .45-70 at the moment, and coyote hunting.

Pete

[filthygovmploye]

gonna necro this thread, any new developments in the last 3 years??

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Pete and Peter, this post brings back memories of good friends, please don't forget this Slug Shooter's family, your family!

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[flak]

Hello to all.
My name is Valentine and I write from Florence.
I read your post just now.
We, too, in Italy we use the lyman slug with excellent results on the boar.
We use wads nobel sport GT 21 mm but I do not know if they are available in the U.S..
Are rigid and do not break through at the moment of launch
I hope to be of help uncork

[littlejack]

Hey Valentine:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.
Jack

[TonyfromItaly]

Ciao Valentine!

i write from Florence too. I make my own molds besides using lyman's and lee's- welcome to CastBoolits.

antonio

[45beargun]

this is an excellent thread with lots of hard work being shared

I'm curious to know how the 2400 loads worked out

[dverna]

I was hoping to see the pressure results. But either the testing was never done, or the results showed over pressure (my expectations). Still, some very accurate results for the 525 - so the slug can shoot if we get things right.

Don Verna

[phaessler]

The testing was done and it was high, just shy of 13K. Havent been back to revisit it using a lighter charge either.
Thanks for the interest.
Pete

[SLEI]

Hello to all.
My name is Valentine and I write from Florence.
I read your post just now.
We, too, in Italy we use the lyman slug with excellent results on the boar.
We use wads nobel sport GT 21 mm but I do not know if they are available in the U.S..
Are rigid and do not break through at the moment of launch
I hope to be of help uncork

This is old topic but I'm loading Lyman 525gr slug with am. GT21 and RS27 wads from Siarm.
Is shot cards or other material needed between wad and slug?

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, I surely miss my friends here Pete and Peter Nap, they were both very friendly and openly shared their findings with all others right here.

Hope they are safe and well in times like these.

Best regards,
Ajay K. Madan
Super Blazing Sabots