Paper Patch angle - 30° or 45°?

[303Guy]

We've discussed tail twisting versus folding but only touched on patch angle. Which is best? Which do you use? Do you roll from right to left or left to right? Why?

[gerrycan]

303Guy,
These are good questions [wrap against the grain ? ]
Also , can anyone post templates for the usual suspects [30 cal /50 cal e.g.] ?
Cheers Gerry

[rhead]

You have to try it in your rifle and see which works the best. There are a lot of angles between 30* and 45* thankfully there are only two directions of twist. The changes on the angle are usually rather subtle. Listen to your rifle when it speaks.

[Digital Dan]

45*, From the bullet base looking forward, the patch should wrap in the same direction as the barrel twist. You have to roll your patch on with the bullet moving in the opposite direction as twist. Patch cut across grain.

Be careful following my advice, I have dyslexia.

[redneckdan]

I haven't noticed a bit of difference as far as accuracy with patch angle. Then again I'm usually shooting off crossed sticks.

[pdawg_shooter]

I use 60* myself. Direction of wrap makes no difference with modern rifling. I cut my patches across the grain for better stretch. Templates only work with one type and weight of paper, cut in the same direction and applied with the same amount of stretch. I have run across different lengths of cut needed with the same brand and weight of paper bot from different lots. Kind of like powder in that respect.

[barrabruce]

Rhead---"Listen to your rifle when it speaks."

Mine just goes boom or maybe BOOM!! sometimes just click if I forget to put a primer in.
:roll:


I try for the start of the second wrap and the finish to end up opposite each other.

Errr.. The top bit and the bottom bit on oposite sides to one another...Yeah something like that.

But then again I'm thankfull of 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" inch groups at 100 yds at the moment.

Iv'e found the hard way of learning this.

I now have many loads my gun doesn't like!!!

Iv'e tried talking to it but it don't say much back.
Even broke down in tears of frustration trying to get it to do what I want.

Must be female. One word from me and it does what it likes.


Barra

Loosing the Psychological battle with an inanimate object!!

[docone31]

My patch angles are pretty much between 45* and whatever. As long as they cross on two wraps, or three wraps, it is a go with me. My sizing lays it down pretty flat.
If I were going long distance with it, that might be a different story. I am at 200yds and less. Over that, I could see where the slight upset at the seam might make a difference.

[powderburnerr]

50 degrees seems to hold tighter on the bullet when wrapped dry as compared with the flatter angles...you may get different resultsit is what I have found......Dean

[montana_charlie]

Do you roll from right to left or left to right? Why?
You have to roll your patch on with the bullet moving in the opposite direction as twist.
Direction of wrap makes no difference with modern rifling.
DD,
If you have a bullet at the breech end, pointed toward the muzzle of a right-twist barrel, and you think the top of the wrap should be going over to the left of the bullet...I agree with you.
Looking at this bullet from the base, we could say it's wrapped counterclockwise.
As the bullet hits the lands, they will tend to tighten the paper on the bullet...rather than want to unroll it.

pds,
I wonder how you perceive modern rifling to be different from older(?) rifling when it comes to picking a patch wrapping direction.


If I patched opposite....the patch would have a tendency to unwind traveling up the bore!!
In Rick's video, he is patching for a right-hand twist, in a barrel with modern rifling, on a Sharps .50/90 rifle.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=713511#post713511


I try for the start of the second wrap and the finish to end up opposite each other.

Errr.. The top bit and the bottom bit on oposite sides to one another...Yeah something like that.
Do you mean that you can see the angle of the inner wrap on one side of the bullet, and the finishing angle of the outer wrap on the opposite side?

That would mean you have two layers of paper on one half of the bullet...and one layer on the other half.
In other words, one and a half wraps instead of two.

Do I understand you correctly?

CM

[eli]

Newbe question here but, if you slug your bore and use the angle of the groove to trim your pp, would that not be the best angle to use?

Eli

[Lead pot]

CM.

A .50 Shiloh has a left hand twist.

I use a 50°-52° taper that was what Sharps used. I don't see any difference between left hand or right hand wrap.
I kind of scratch my head when some one will say a patch might un wrap if it is patched in the direction of twist. how can it when it has thousands of pounds pressure forcing it outwards during the big bang.

[bcp477]

I've tried both 30 and 45 degrees.....didn't seem to make any difference.....so I just stick with 30. I learned to wrap with the rifling......and I've never tried the other way.....I don't see the point. It ain't broke......so I'm not gonna try to fix it.

[longbow]

I guess I'll toss in what little I have to offer here too.

I read that it is best to wrap so that the open edge of the paper faces the direction of boolit rotation to help it separate. Also that would be tightening the paper as rifling spun the boolit. But as noted, it is being squeezed awful hard so how could it wrap tighter or unwrap?

Since it seems to work, that's how I do it. As bcp477 said ~ "If it ain't broke..."

I doubt exact edge angle matters but I am guessing it is best if it straddles a land or two to ensure sealing (a paper seam lined ip in a groove "might" leak).

I have also read that the rifling has to slice the paper to get good separation and while I can't argue the logic, my .44 Marlin with microgroove rifling likes a boolit of 0.421" patched to 0.432"+. With a bore diameter of about 0.425" the rifling is not going to slice that paper.

I tried larger boolits in it with thinner paper but it didn't work as well.

I am no pro at this though.

I think there are lots of ways to get it to work and those fellas that poke one boolit after another through the same hole work harder than I do and pay attention to little details. For them direction of wrap and exact angles may make enough difference to worry about.

FWIW

Longbow

[montana_charlie]

CM.

A .50 Shiloh has a left hand twist.
Then the video must dipict the patching of his .45 caliber bullet. In any case, I asked him (in that thread) which way his twist ran and he said 'right-hand'.
You can see it there, for yourself.

Was Rick mistaken?
CM

[Lead pot]

I don't know CM,

I have talked to rick several times and I'm not sure if he has a .50-90 Shiloh or a C-Sharps.

As far as the taper of the patch shoot what ever you want. Make sure the short tag end is at the ogive, not the long end especially if your using a 45° or 30°. The 50° stays best for me with out loosening up when I carry the bullets in a belt.

Long Bow.

I have a .444 Marlin with micro groove and It gives me fits with lead or PP bullets that I resigned myself swaging jacketed bullets for it that shoot very good in it and it dropped a lot of Michigan Deer.

:-) by the way those saying they punch one hole shots all day long might be stretching that rubber band some[smilie=f: or shooting that from the 25 yard line.

I have shot some very good holes from the 200 yd but they are seldom coming.

[docone31]

Hehehe, I cannot fire one hole shots if I put the muzzle over the first hole!
I like that.
I think, as I do smokeless also, as long as there is no gap from the cartridge to the rifleing, the patch will not roll back during engraveing. That would make an upset and affect the trajectory long run.
I have been lucky. My patches have worked out. The .303 British I had to work for, my .30s, I just sized .309 and they worked.
I like paper patching.

[barrabruce]

Montana Charlie.
This is what I mean.
This is a folded Cig paper 2x wrap.
This one over lapps a bit thou.
When wet they are translusant.
I belive they should be a gap of 1 1/2 Thickness paper on the anlges lining up.
That would take the bump off the paper on the "seam".
This has Turtle wax hard car polish on it. Hence cow ****ty green color on the top section.
This seems to harden the fragile paper up a bit and I don't get leading.
Well a grey wash up the bore for the first few inches ..but not smears or such.
Hope it helps.
I haven't worked out a way of carrying my lubed or patched boolets get when/if I ever get to go hunting but thats a nother story!!

Hope it helps
Barra

[303Guy]

... use the angle of the groove to trim your pp, would that not be the best angle to use?
eli

I have tried that, thinking that the lap joint impression would lie in the same direction as the rifling impressions. It makes for a very easy mating of the start and tail of the patch with it being possible to blend the gap away altogether. But .... the problem is to keep the patch rolled on. The angled patch is held secure by the trailing corner being folded, twisted or 'fold crimped'. (Some papers can actually be crimped over the base).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-333F.jpg A 'fold crimped' patch.

To solve the problem I found a paper glue that would hold the patch on with a 'sliver' applied under the trailing edge. the glue I used would soak away in the wet paper but keep the patch on securely without interfering with the patch disintegration at the muzzle.

Thing is, when folks are getting top accuracy with the angled patch and even with a small gap in the 'joint', it seemed kinda pointless messing with the glue. But it was fun testing and did teach me a few things about patching. (Like finding a way to blend the start and tail joint - and that was with a tapered boolit).

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-120F.jpg The line is the ege of the patch.
Note how the edge has taken a 'shape'. There is no gap between start and trailing edge. The angle is the rifling twist angle (or was before it got a bit bent). There was a small and uneven gap initially but by rolling in a particular way stretches the paper were desired until the gap is closed.

[pdawg_shooter]

Early rifling intended for paper patch ammo had very shallow rifling. The wrap was put on in the direction of the rifling to help the paper un-wrap when leaving the muzzle. The rifling was not deep enough to cut the paper.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for the explanation, pdawg. You had my curiosity bubbling.

Barra, you're not doing what I thought you were doing. Press on...
CM

[eli]

Good stuff 303guy, thanks for the pics and info, this helps a lot. I don't want to try glue so I'll start with the 45º and work my way across several other angles each way in, lets say 5º increments, to see if there is a sweet spot that can be zeroed in on.

Eli

[rhead]

Early rifling intended for paper patch ammo had very shallow rifling. The wrap was put on in the direction of the rifling to help the paper un-wrap when leaving the muzzle. The rifling was not deep enough to cut the paper.

Shallow like microgroove or even shallower?

[RMulhern]

CM.

A .50 Shiloh has a left hand twist.

I use a 50°-52° taper that was what Sharps used. I don't see any difference between left hand or right hand wrap.
I kind of scratch my head when some one will say a patch might un wrap if it is patched in the direction of twist. how can it when it has thousands of pounds pressure forcing it outwards during the big bang.

Lead Pot

IN MY MIND.....it unwraps!! And THAT'S....what's most important!!:bigsmyl2:[smilie=w::bigsmyl2:

[longbow]

Early rifling intended for paper patch ammo had very shallow rifling. The wrap was put on in the direction of the rifling to help the paper un-wrap when leaving the muzzle. The rifling was not deep enough to cut the paper.

That's what I recall reading as well and not just for cartridge guns but chase patching for muzzleloaders too ~ shallow rifling. Of course the chase p[atching doesn't have to be cut to release easy.

Like I said though, I am no pro at this and have no first hand experience with original rifles designed specifically for paper patch.

Longbow

[RMulhern]

Lead Pot

My .50 is a C. Sharps.....right hand Badger barrel!

In my opinion.....there's a bunch of you guys trying to make something simple......into a very difficult thing with a whole lot of the 'blather' aka BS that's being put forth! The important things are having a good profiled bullet matched to your rifles ROT, patch paper of the right thickness to give a good fit into the bore if you're shooting bore diameter bullets, and a good combination of powder, wads, and or lube cookie if you're using a cookie! Frankly I use the 45 degree angle cut on my patches and I have spent a little time getting the template to the exact size such that the ends of the patch meet with no overlap!! I also see some wrapping that is taking the patch damn nigh to the upper end of the bullet and that in my opinion is as useless as tits on a friggin boar hog!! But hey.....I don't give a rip if you're using toilet paper to patch with......if it works....more power to you!! And as for the one hole groups.......I think the guys putting that out need a WHOLE BUNCH of toilet paper or either like someone said....."These guys are shooting from 25 yards only!"

[longbow]

My one hole group comment seems to be taken out of context. Didn't say I could do it just meant that there are are a lot better shooters than me to whom the small details make enough difference to worry about.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Well then, since the direction of wrap seems to arbitary and likewise the angle then why not just choose the direction that would tighten in the bore (in theory at least) and unwrap on muzzle exit? The angle that seems like a good arbitary choise would align the top and bottom of the patch edge on the same side of the boolit. I settled on a 30° angle because it was steep enough to pevent unwrapping and seemed easier to roll on. I have found a paper that does not need a dab of glue on the overhanging corner and 'crimps' over the base. I'll try 45° but if it means too much paper waste then I'll go back to whatever is easiest. I think the choice of angle is going to be influenced by the proportions of the boolit.


I also see some wrapping that is taking the patch damn nigh to the upper end of the bullet ...Now there is an interesting point. How high should the patch go and what happens if it is too high or not high enough?

My aim has been to patch the boolit so that the entire length of the patch contacts the bore to some degree. That means the bore ride section is patched to bore diameter, ie, the core is smaller than bore diameter. Low velocity recovered boolits show rifling impression all the way to the ogive. But then the chamber end bore is larger than at the muzzle end.


Thanks for all the input. :drinks:

[barrabruce]

Well I reckon if the patch at the front is just long enought to allow the boollet to seat/scribe in the throat rifling where yer need it to be than that is far enough.

Mine are a bit long in the non scribed area but I wanted to see how it would fare first.

No thaving impressive results from me I think is not having a boolet from yet to wrap and make to fit the chamber lead yet!!!

Now if I fix that then I'll have to find a nother excuse why I can't shoot

Barra
P.S. the general consenses at the range is you "can't PP smokless guns..period..." Don't work yudda yudda.
Who am I to deny them???

[303Guy]

I just tried a new lot of paper (which I am hoping is the one that 'crimps') and measured out a patch that would align the top and bottom corners, cut it, wet it and rolled it on - it was a perfect fit! And it 'crimped'! Now to give the cut angle I have a problem. How is the angle measured? I have been calling the angle as being off the vertical and that was about 30° which could be called 60° off the horizontal. The angle I have just tried is about 30° off the horizontal or 60° off the vertical.

I found that this much sharper angle was actually easier to roll on and to make the ends meet. :Fire: (Conserving paper is only a secondry consideration. 100 A4 sheets cost me like 3 or 4 NZ dollars!)

[303Guy]

... the general consenses at the range is you "can't PP smokless guns..period..."Oh boy. Are you ever going to have fun when they do work!:bigsmyl2:
I'd love to see their faces then and hear their comments![smilie=p:

[Bob Krack]

Hah!

I've shot lots and lots of one hole groups --- one shot groups that is!

Bob

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Come now !

It is time to differentiate between TRADITIONAL patching with banknote or high quality rag bond paper, perhaps modern 100% cotton bond paper, and all else.

For the former, all the originals I've seen let you see the complete wrap joint in one view of the bullet . That's a small range of variability. Not very important in my view. It's the stretch in traditional paper that is important for adhesion. The grain cut question goes to the stretch/adhesion result.

Since many here are cutting edge, you have to figure out the new materials and techniques that work as well as the old. To do that you need to be skilled in both. BvT

[montana_charlie]

I'll try 45° but if it means too much paper waste then I'll go back to whatever is easiest. I think the choice of angle is going to be influenced by the proportions of the boolit.

and, later...

I found that this much sharper angle was actually easier to roll on and to make the ends meet. (Conserving paper is only a secondry consideration. 100 A4 sheets cost me like 3 or 4 NZ dollars!)
When I started patching (last fall) I was also interested in 'conserving paper'.
I had two reams of 'antique' paper that I felt would be perfect, and didn't want to waste any.

I played with patch length and patch angle until I had a shape that would yield three patches from each horizontal strip cut from the page.

In order to make the patch wrap around twice and meet at the ends, I had to put a lot (I mean a lot) of stretch in the paper. I used a plastic roller to accomplish that, before laying the bullet on the patch.

The method worked Ok, and I wasted no paper, but the total thickness of my patch was not enough to match the barrel.

That's when I switched to wrapping dry (to totally eliminate stretch) and decided that 13000 patches from a ream of paper, instead of 19500, would (sigh) just have to be good enough...

CM

[Lead pot]

You guys sure make a big job out of nothing with this PP thing.
Just make a pattern on a sheet of paper and mark it for what bullet.
Save this sheet when ever you need to cut patches.
Run this sheet through the scanner and make several sheets, Staple each strip at one end and cut the long strips. I staple 12 sheets together at a time. Then cut the individual patches. I get 336 patches from these twelve sheets and it take me about 15 minutes and each patch is identical. and I use a rotary paper cutter.
I have one for every bullet I patch.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0284.jpg

[pdawg_shooter]

Oh boy. Are you ever going to have fun when they do work!:bigsmyl2:
I'd love to see their faces then and hear their comments![smilie=p:

I paper patch the 308, 30-06, 300RUM, 35Whelen, 375 H&H, 45-70, and 458Win. All with smokeless. All seem to shoot good. Fact is the 300 will shoot just under 1" at 100yds. Guess paper just wont work with smokeless!

[montana_charlie]

Run this sheet through the scanner and make several sheets,
I used MS Paint to draw a similar pattern. I can open that file and send it to the printer. It's pretty easy to make adjustments when needed, and save those as separate files. And...no 'master copy' to worry about spilling coffee on...

The patches are outlined in red, and the black line is where I position the base prior to rolling.

I also use a rotary cutter to knock 'em out...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=1605
CM

[303Guy]

I devised a printer 'template' too. Mine is a bit more complex because my boolits are tapered and two-diameter so the sides of my patches are not parallel. Then I found the paper I want to use doesn't like my printer much! Then, for some reason, the damn things don't fit my boolit! (The prototype was perfect :veryconfu ). Oh well, back to the 'drawing board' - with my new paper.


http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/303BritPaperPatchTemplate.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/303BritPaperPatchTemplate-1.jpg

[nelsonted1]

Lead Pot

My .50 is a C. Sharps.....right hand Badger barrel!

In my opinion.....there's a bunch of you guys trying to make something simple......into a very difficult thing with a whole lot of the 'blather' aka BS that's being put forth! The important things are having a good profiled bullet matched to your rifles ROT, patch paper of the right thickness to give a good fit into the bore if you're shooting bore diameter bullets, and a good combination of powder, wads, and or lube cookie if you're using a cookie! Frankly I use the 45 degree angle cut on my patches and I have spent a little time getting the template to the exact size such that the ends of the patch meet with no overlap!! I also see some wrapping that is taking the patch damn nigh to the upper end of the bullet and that in my opinion is as useless as tits on a friggin boar hog!! But hey.....I don't give a rip if you're using toilet paper to patch with......if it works....more power to you!! And as for the one hole groups.......I think the guys putting that out need a WHOLE BUNCH of toilet paper or either like someone said....."These guys are shooting from 25 yards only!"





This quote gets thrown about by weirdly ignorant ignoramices:"...my opinion is as useless as titts on a friggin boar hog!!"


Everyone knows that tits on a boar tells you how many teats his female offspring are going to have. Five teats on a side are clearly less potent as say 14! Quit throwing around assinine stupidities like that one, it gets my goat.

Baby piglets take on one teat for life. If a sow has 28 piglets but has ten faucets 18 piglets are going to die.

TED

TED

[eli]

Excuse me if this has been covered before but instead of complete templets, how about using a small paper-cutter like this Friskers (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NUX180/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00019DTRQ&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0KXHKG3Z06Z9W6RKPFZC) trimmer?

Using carpenters double-sided tape or hot glue, fix it to a larger section of common artists thick mat-board for a working surface, then mount a small angled piece of mat-board on the working surface of the tool, to the left of the blade/guide arm, so that it gives you the 45º or whatever angle you want when it makes cuts.

Double-stick another piece of mat-board beside the out-feed side of the cutter, on top of the base mat-board, so that it is flush with the mounted tool surface. Then you can make markings for different sized patches as needed, moving the first cut edge of a patch over to the line and cutting it off with the blade.

All you'd need then is to cut the sheet donor sheet to straight, sized strips and run them through your set-up.

By-the-way, Friskers makes other cutters that are less expensive but these use small mounted blades which make good cuts but the rotor blades give cleaner results and last longer.

They also have another craft-cutter that is more expensive but it's not worth the extra expense.

I also wanted to pass-on the suggestion of freezing damp paper a day or two before cutting patches. Woodcut artists using quality papers will sometimes print colour blocks that require many burnishing over several blocks, a chore that will take days to accomplish. To keep the paper from molding, they will wrap the damp sheets in plastic and freeze it until the next block is printed, the result of which is a 'softer' paper which is easier to print by burnishing with a hand-tool.

I believe doing this will give some additional stretch to paper for patching. Lightly damp paper is used so the best way to do this is to use a fine mist spray bottle and take a sheet, wet it well, then stack three or four sheets of dry paper on top, spray another sheet, stack more dry, etc. Give some time for all the paper to become evenly damp after you wrap/store in plastic and stick it in the freezer a day or more.

Hope this is useful, if you try it, let us know the results.

Eli

[docone31]

So much effort.
I take a broken piece of vynl venetian blind, cut the end at what ever angle I want, cut the other end at the other angle at the length I seek.
I cut them, and cut them, and cut them. I then have a pile of patches I cut and wrap.
I adjust the length, and angle, as I cut them by trimming the blind as I cut the patch.

[eli]

Actually this is a very simple set-up, make it and you just feed it strips of paper cut to width. After the first cut on a strip, just slide the angled cut end up to your marking for that caliber and make the cut, repeat as needed. That's it and once it's made it's good to go for many calibers and it's easy to make and install another angle-guide as this piece is merely taped in place.

Here (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=2dd647ede8141a45ad2b2411a6a77633) is a rough sketch of what I'm suggesting, complete with hole for hanging on a wall or in a closet like a jacket.

Eli

[303Guy]

Thanks for the 'Friskers' tip, eli. I actually saw something like it on Sunday and considered it but decided to think on it first as it might not suite my particular odd shaped patches.


... freeze it until the next block is printed, the result of which is a 'softer' paper ...Thanks again for that tip, eli. Two test patches in freezer already! This same trick might assist in bonding the two layers of double wrapped paper together and in my case it might improve the paper conforming to the boolit shape!

My latest printer 'template' is using this 'new' paper I have found which actually works in my printer but requires cutting each individual patch with a pair of scissors. Not too tedious actually - unless one wants to do large quantities!8-)

[303Guy]

Well, I tested the 'freezing of the wet patch' idea and would you believe the most perfect patch I've done? I re-wet the patch which soaked up water like blotting paper, going quite transparent. The patch rolled on nice and straight and the ends met perfectly! The 'roll crimped' overhang made a central hole and no tearing over the boolit edge, so there is no 'weakening' of the paper.

Freezing does indeed do something to the patch.:Fire:

[303Guy]

I tried one or two more 'frozen patches' and again perfect! I measured the result and they are larger by 0.05mm (.002") in diameter. More precisely, the freezing of the patch negates the compressing effect of rolling the freshly applied patch between a plastic ruler and table top.

I'll have to run a few side by side comparisons to see whether the freezing really does make patching easier and neater or whether I am simply getting more practiced at it.:roll:

[montana_charlie]

I tried one or two more 'frozen patches' and again perfect! I measured the result and they are larger by 0.05mm (.002") in diameter. More precisely, the freezing of the patch negates the compressing effect of rolling the freshly applied patch between a plastic ruler and table top.

Not sure I understand what you are saying...tell me which of these describes what you are doing.

1.) You cut your patch, wet it, then freeze it.
After it thaws out, you roll it on a bullet.
You roll the patched bullet between the table and a ruler, but the patched diameter is .002" bigger than when using never-frozen paper.
(Did you wet it a second time to roll it on...or apply it dry?)
(What is the purpose of rolling it under the ruler...to compress the paper?)

2.) You wet patch your bullet, roll it under a ruler, then freeze it.
When it thaws, the diameter is .002" bigger than it was after the 'ruler rolling'.

3.) You patch the bullet with frozen paper.
You have to roll it on with a ruler because your fingers are numb.
The diameter stays .002" larger than normal...until the ice melts.

If none of these come close to what you are trying, guess I'll need step-by-step instructions to understand...

CM

[303Guy]

I wet the patch, froze it, re-wet it and rolled it on and it dried .002" bigger than an unfrozen one, both having been rolled with a ruler on the table.

Why roll with a ruler on the table? It was just something I thought of trying because I had been rolling the patched boolit on the table with a finger to get the ends to meet evenly over the length of my 'odd-shaped' boolit. The ruler produces a smaller boolit with a nice and glossy surface which seemed to be harder and more robust. (Also, the ruler trick doesn't 'dirty' the patch nor 'fluff' it like finger rolling does).

For some reason, the 'eye' of the 'crimp/rolled' tail sits nice and round and central on the base with the frozen patch.

[eli]

Thanks for the test result 303Guy, it's good to know the freezing of paper works for you. Please keep us updated on your work with these patches.

This is just speculation on my part but I think the freezing relieves some of the 'stresses' built into the paper, similar to those found in a thinner board cut from a larger plank. The ice gives a stretch to the fibers and so they are 'relaxed' somewhat when thawed and therefore are more plastic/workable.

Or, it could be that the ice fairies are casting spells. Either way, it'll be interesting to hear how well bullets patched with these treated patches preform at the range.


Eli

[montana_charlie]

I wet the patch, froze it, re-wet it and rolled it on and it dried .002" bigger than an unfrozen one, both having been rolled with a ruler on the table.
Okay, that's clear enough, even for me.

As I have a lot of one particular type of paper, and it is a bit thinner than I wish it was, I will try freezing a set of patches to see if it gives me results similar to yours.

I really made a strong effort to learn the thickness of my paper, before I bought it on eBay. But a shooter asking for information from a scrapbooker is working in a zone where 'failure to communicate' is a real possibility.

Lucky for me...when I ordered a bullet mould, the maker made a mistake. It turned out .002" fatter than I wanted, but that diameter actually works better with my 'thin' paper.

CM

[303Guy]

Well, I am busy conducting a 'test'. Three of each 'frozen' then dried, wetted and dried and dry patches. These were dipped into water and wrapped, one of each then repeat. The only one I botched (by tearing the 'fold crimp' was a 'dry' one and the only ones I had to unwrap and do again were the 'dry' ones.

The results are so close. On average, the 'frozen' ones are very slightly larger, then the 'wetted' ones followed by the 'dry'. Very inconclusive!
I selected what I thought were the three least central base 'eyes' and for some reason all three were 'wetted' ones.
For patch alignment, the 'frozen' ones come out on top but by such a slight margin.
For 'making ends meet', the 'dry' ones failed against the other six!
For patch length - one 'wetted' and one 'frozen' one pailed.

Is it worth the extra step? Not until I have tested soaking the 'dry' patches longer. (And the first two I did the other night seemed so promising!)

[montana_charlie]

Well, I am busy conducting a 'test'. Three of each 'frozen' then dried, wetted and dried and dry patches. These were dipped into water and wrapped, one of each then repeat. The only one I botched (by tearing the 'fold crimp' was a 'dry' one and the only ones I had to unwrap and do again were the 'dry' ones.
I really meant to keep my promise to try the frozen patch thing, but I got sidetracked, again.
In order to get ready for the test, I needed some PP rounds to put bullets in.
And...I needed to patch some bullets with 'wet patches' so I could measure them to confirm my old numbers. (As you know, I've been dry wrapping lately)

So, I prepped 15 rounds of charged cases, wet wrapped 15 bullets...and set them aside to dry. When I went to measure them, I found the seams were overlapped by a good sixteenth. I had not shortened the patches (when cut) to account for stretching.
I tore off all of those patches and went to smoke cigarettes and pout for a spell.

While doing that, I was trying to figure a way to use the patch size I had available...and get them on a bullet without stretching...and end up with a wet patch that could dry out for the new measurement I need.

This may make your hair hurt, but I am wetting the patch after it's wrapped on the bullet...and I have totally eliminated any need for a patching board.

I wet the angled part on the beginning end of the patch. That makes it stick to the bullet's surface. Then, with my left hand palm up, I roll the bullet down my left index finger (rolling toward me) using the right thumb and forefinger to do the rolling. My left thumb keeps the patch pulled out straight and keeps a small amount of tension on the dry paper.

When the whole patch is on, I gently dab all sides of the 'package' on a wet sponge to get the paper damp all the way through...but not dripping wet.
Then I roll the base fold over good and flat, and set the package on a 'cup warmer' to dry.

No stretch means the seam is perfect, and wet paper means it all folds flat and dries into a tight and cohesive whole.
They came out looking so good I went on and loaded them into the cases.

I'll do the freeze test some other time...

CM

[303Guy]

I am wetting the patch after it's wrapped on the bullet...I had to try it! Mine is still drying. You might be onto something there CM!:drinks:

I did mine slightly differently. I rolled on the dry patch, twisted it in my fingers untill nice and tight and the 'ends' met then while holding the boolit by the base, I wet it under a tap, then did my rolling between two plastic rulers and then I did my 'crimping' trick. Yup, this could be better way of doing it!

I did another one. This time I began the 'crimping' while still dry. Again it worked beautifully. I see a big advantage of doing it like this in that being dry and put downable, one can roll on patches while watching TV then wetting them and setting them up to dry during the commercials!

[clodhopper]

Actually this is a very simple set-up, make it and you just feed it strips of paper cut to width. After the first cut on a strip, just slide the angled cut end up to your marking for that caliber and make the cut, repeat as needed. That's it and once it's made it's good to go for many calibers and it's easy to make and install another angle-guide as this piece is merely taped in place.

Here (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=2dd647ede8141a45ad2b2411a6a77633) is a rough sketch of what I'm suggesting, complete with hole for hanging on a wall or in a closet like a jacket.

Eli

Eli.
I had given such a guide some thought. Was planning to make one a couple weeks ago.
But the biggest problem was seeing the marks on the strip and fear of getting my fingers in the business end of the paper cutter.
(23 years of sawmill work, all fingers present)
Then was hit with the idea of scissors guide.

[clodhopper]

The guide is made from two peices of plastic angle sold as corner protecter moulding, taped together and hot glued to one blade of the scissors.

[clodhopper]

The patches come out with a curve in the cut. But the curve is repeteable by holding the paper the same way each cut.

[303Guy]

Then was hit with the idea of scissors guide. Hang on! That's brilliant!

Now to figure out how to apply the idea to a trapezoidal patch form.[smilie=1:

[barrabruce]

Clodhopper thats is the ducks nuts!!!
Still haven't figured out the other side of the guide works and is stuck to the sissors.
Too late tonight to think or get something out.

Cool.

Barrabruce

[clodhopper]

303Guy,
As outlined by 45 2.1 (Thanks that works good for me) on this site, 5 sheets of paper are stapled together
and cut into strips, each set of five strips are also stapled together.
These strips, measured with a ruler, and marked with pencil, are fed into the scissors with guide attached and cut into trapezoids.

barrabruce,
There is not much left on the bottem peice of moulding after cutting the notch for the scissors.
So after cutting the notch, I lined up the floppy guide on some angle iron and hot glued a reniforcement on the weak spot.
The reniforcment was just the corner of the moulding cut down to fit.
This was built with the cheepest pair of scissors to be found. Better scissors may not cut a curve in the ends.
But the curve may come from cutting 5 peices in the same cut.

[303Guy]

I used the word 'trapezoid' incorrectly. A 'trapezoid' has two sides parallel. My patches don't have any parallel sides! They're 'unequal four sided' what ever the name for them would be.:mrgreen:

I measured my now dried 'applied dry' patched boolits and they are identical to the 'applied wet' patched boolits. Curious that with the paper I use the ends meet the same with both techniques!

[montana_charlie]

My patches don't have any parallel sides! They're 'unequal four sided' what ever the name for them would be.
I think that would be a 'wrecked tangle'.
CM

[303Guy]

My printed patch format
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/303BritPaperPatchTemplate-2.jpg

After cutting out a printed page of patches with a pair of scissors and finding it quite tedious after two or three I decided there must be a way to reduce scissor strokes and this is what I came up with. Half of them are inside out (ie on the page) but as long as I start with '40°' corner, I'm good to go!