1st Milsurp - '91 Argentine

[LarryM]

Picked up a decent looking '91 today. After a very thorough cleaning it turns out the bore is a bit on the rough side :cry:.
I put some Prvi Partisan FMJ round through it and It looks like it will do OK with J bullets but I'm kind of concerned about how it will do with cast.
I've still got to come up with a suitable mold, will probably go with the Lee 312-200 gr to start with and I've looked at the suggested loads here.
Any suggestions on working with the rough bore?

[No_1]

Fire lap it if it leads with cast. What can it hurt?

Robert

[docone31]

Paper patch, and wipe a little valve lapping compound on the patch.
Took less then 20rds to make my Enfield bore sweet!

[Buckshot]

...............Have you slugged it yet? Throat, and then the barrel to give you a bore and groove measurement. Also drive one into the muzzle to check as sometimes the lands and maybe even the grooves might have gotten the steel cleaning rod treatment. I'd bet you'd be better off with the Lyman 314299 mould. I didn't know Lee made a C312-200. The only "312's" I'm familiar with are the C312-185R, and the 2 designed for the 7.62x39, the C312-155-2R and the C312-160-TL.


..............Buckshot

[LarryM]

You're right, I was tired. the Lee is C312-185R. You just reminded me I have a C312-160-TL sitting in the cabinet that I have never used. I got it with the intent to load for dad's 1891 "sporter" and just never got around to it. I may have to give that a try. I'll try to get it slugged tonight if i get th e chance.

Found another issue that may be a die issue. I resized a couple of .30-06 cases and trimmed to lenght but they will not chamber. I marked the offending cases and they are hitting right at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Original 7.65 cases are fine. I'll have to see if the reformed cases will chamber in dad's rifle.

[madsenshooter]

You may need to inside neck ream, or outside neck turn the reformed 30/06 cases. I use the LEE TL bullet in oversized bore Krag. I don't like tumble lubing though, so they get checked, then dip lubed in molten Carnauba Red. I have a little pot pie pan full in an old electric skillet, let the bullets warm up to lube temp and dip them using a set of tongs. I put them back in the pan to drip down a bit before cooling, then size with push through dies.

[StarMetal]

You're right, I was tired. the Lee is C312-185R. You just reminded me I have a C312-160-TL sitting in the cabinet that I have never used. I got it with the intent to load for dad's 1891 "sporter" and just never got around to it. I may have to give that a try. I'll try to get it slugged tonight if i get th e chance.

Found another issue that may be a die issue. I resized a couple of .30-06 cases and trimmed to lenght but they will not chamber. I marked the offending cases and they are hitting right at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Original 7.65 cases are fine. I'll have to see if the reformed cases will chamber in dad's rifle.

Sounds as though you're not pushing the shoulder back far enough. Screw your die in more and cam over the press ram harder and see if that fixes it. If not take a wee bit off your shell holder and have a go at it again. If that does it and once you've fired the cases then go back to normal resizing with an unaltered shell holder. Madsenshooter is right about checking to make sure your necks aren't too thick. Way to figure this out without dangerously firing the new cases if they are thick is to take one of your othe fired cases, such as the original 7.65 brass, and see if a bullet will slide into the neck. Don't size it, just see if the bullet fits. If it does then mic the outside diameter of a couple of them. Keep that number in mind. Now load a dummy round with your reformed brass. Mic the outside of it. If that number is smaller then the once fired cases you're good to go.

Joe

[azrednek]

Found another issue that may be a die issue. I resized a couple of .30-06 cases and trimmed to lenght but they will not chamber. I marked the offending cases and they are hitting right at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Original 7.65 cases are fine. I'll have to see if the reformed cases will chamber in dad's rifle.

This is a common problem when using Lee dies. Check the "LEE" shell holder chart and you will see they do not list the standard 30/06, 308, 45ACP etc shell holder for 7.65 as the other die makers do. Use the shell holder number Lee recomends and that should cure the problem.

Lee recomends their #3 shell holder, you are likely using a #2. http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1258392165.4158=/html/catalog/primtool.html

[azrednek]

I can't say it enough as I've said it numerous times in several groups. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER fire-form brass for an Argie without using GOOD safety glasses. The Argie and all 91 Mausers does not have the vent for escaping gas like the later designed Mausers.

I had some gas sneak over the shoulder on one I was fire-forming and it literally fried the lens of my safety glasses. If I hadn't had the glasses on, chances are good it would have been my eyeball and eyesight that got fried.

[dualsport]

AZ, that's very good advice. There's never a good reason to not wear eye protection. Thanks for the reminder.

[Bret4207]

If you can find one, my '91 absolutely dotes on the "Fat 30" GB boolits. I'm talking groups that are embarassingly small and round at 100 yards even with my sorry excuse for eyesight. The 91 is just a sweet old girl.

[badgeredd]

You're right, I was tired. the Lee is C312-185R. You just reminded me I have a C312-160-TL sitting in the cabinet that I have never used. I got it with the intent to load for dad's 1891 "sporter" and just never got around to it. I may have to give that a try. I'll try to get it slugged tonight if i get th e chance.

The C312-160-TL would be a great boolit to fire lap your rough bore with. Lube them uo, roll the lubed boolits in a little lapping compound and load the shell with some Unique to get around 14-1500 fps. I'd load 10 rounds up...swab the bore and chamber after each round. Inspect the bore after swabbing after each round. You may need only 4 or 5 rounds before you find a vast improvement. You'll be amazed at the difference in the appearance of the bore. After fire-lapping you'll need to slug your bore, but I've cleaned up some pretty ratty looking bores with as many as 20 rounds and the bore diameter has never enlarged more than .001" and is really pretty afterwards. An after thought, you'll want to make sure you have ALL of the copper out of the bore before lapping.

I love my Argies and you'll likely find that with just a little work they can be really good shooters. Of course +1 on the safety glasses, especially with an Argie with no gas vent.

Edd

[LarryM]

Thanks for the tips guys. This old girl will be a fun winter project.


I was using the shell holder that came iwth the Lee dies set - #3. I may just order some PRVI Partisan brass for her though. I htink it was natchez that is carrying it.

[Buckshot]

Found another issue that may be a die issue. I resized a couple of .30-06 cases and trimmed to lenght but they will not chamber. I marked the offending cases and they are hitting right at the junction of the neck and shoulder. Original 7.65 cases are fine. I'll have to see if the reformed cases will chamber in dad's rifle.

..............You're correct. It IS a die issue. As Starmetal mentioned, the shoulder isn't being pushed back far enough. I however will suggest instead of trying to remove metal from the top of the shellholder which is already fairly thin, you instead take it off the bottom of the die. I had the exact same problem years ago when I got my first M91 Argentine and was using 8x57 brass.

I don't know how you're set up, or what resources you have available, but for the price of return shipping I'd be happy to take off about .050" and radius the bottom of the die. That should easily take care of it. If all else fails and you'd like me to do it just shoot me a PM.

...............Buckshot

[jonk]

I have seen the argentine issue with shoulders not being pushed back far enough with resized brass in 4 rifles and 4 brands of dies- RCBS, Lee, Lyman, and Herters. Using factory Norma or Grafs brass already fired in that gun, no problem. Reformed? Big issues.

I finally broke down and got the RCBS form and trim die. It seems to push the shoulder back far enough to do the job.

Neck reaming... when trying to reform using just the dies listed above before I got the form die, I tried neck reaming to help, not realizing it was a shoulder issue. And help it did, a little. After buying the neck reaming die I find that about 95% chamber just fine but that remaining 5% still need neck reaming.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

If you should happen to have a number of '06 head sized shellholders, measure them and you can likely shift that shoulder 3-4 K just by changing shellholders. That's probably enough. I always formed from lots of 1F 270 cases, but 8x57 work and will be thinner in the neck thickness if that is critical. BvT