45 ACP in a long gun/or Destroyer info

[TCLouis]

Didn't one or more of you build a 45 ACP on a Mauser or other gun?

If so, tell us about it.

Or anyone with a "Destroyer" Carbine?

[Bullshop]

We have one on a SMLE. Wut ya want to know about it?

[Buckshot]

.............The Destroyer first:

http://www.fototime.com/87154E01548A1AD/standard.jpg

This was my first destroyer.Oops! wrong Destroyer, sorry :-)

http://www.fototime.com/4FFDE36264BD077/standard.jpg

Kind of an ugly little scudder. I had a 2nd still in 9mm Bergman but I sold that to a memeber here, whom I disremember at the moment. The magazine in place is a Stainless Colt. The original mags for the 9mm were flush with the mag housing. It's obvious I didn't spend much time on stock alterations, simply whacking off the forend some.

I did have to put in 2 reinforcing crossbolts. You can see one behind the bolt handle knob, and one just in front of, and below the ejection port. I'd gotten pretty intrepid with some of the loads and the barreled action was walking backwards in the stock. Thinking back, a lot of them weren't very intelligent as I was at 44 mag ballistics. Considering the case volumn the pressures had to have been a bit steamy. One fun load was the Lee 457-405F sized to .452" which exited the muzzle at 1075 fps.

http://www.fototime.com/9A75475EFE7F865/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/EFE3FFB26179CF8/standard.jpg

Steel Lyman rear sight. Lyman made them for a lefthanded Mossberg target rifle, and GPC didn't know what they were for and were selling them for $28 ea. I snagged a couple!

http://www.fototime.com/70FB3F38BF60C27/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8E2F3E0E13B7FCA/standard.jpg

Left photo: The 45 ACP hole. Right photo: Bolt closed. The Mauser type extractor rides on top of the bolt.

http://www.fototime.com/F06285EBCF53BF7/standard.jpg

The bolt removed to show the 2 mid-body locking lugs. When I bought the 2 of them Century had them selling at $69 (with my FFL).

...............Buckshot

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/8A2BCFD33D9C92A/standard.jpg

M1894 Brazilian small ring Mauser action in the milling fixture I made.

http://www.fototime.com/DE63B301AAA3A3F/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/DBBA3E2B7F5FD1B/standard.jpg

Being traumatized, and post op.

http://www.fototime.com/8C27E567DA214EE/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/CFF5DC049C8598B/standard.jpg

In the welding fixture, before and after MiG welding. The welding fixture was also a work in progress. In the left photo there is no side support as in the right photo, but it was added before welding took place.

http://www.fototime.com/997647F830B4F72/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/C38A508AD2E6C88/standard.jpg

Shortening the bolt. The bright area to the right of the chuck is being reduced in OD, and will then be parted off on it's left end. The rear of the bolt (in the chuck jaws) will then be bored out to accept the reduced area created previously, and then welded together. Right photo has the bolt and action welded.

http://www.fototime.com/0D4798327EAC454/standard.jpg

Shortening the firing pin. Cutting in new cocking piece keys. Those to the right were the original ones.

End part one........................

[StarMetal]

http://www.fototime.com/8A2BCFD33D9C92A/standard.jpg

M1894 Brazilian small ring Mauser action in the milling fixture I made.

http://www.fototime.com/DE63B301AAA3A3F/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/DBBA3E2B7F5FD1B/standard.jpg

Being traumatized, and post op.

http://www.fototime.com/8C27E567DA214EE/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/CFF5DC049C8598B/standard.jpg

In the welding fixture, before and after welding after MiG welding. The welding fixture was also a work in progress. In the left photo there is no side support as in the right photo, but it was added before welding took place.

http://www.fototime.com/997647F830B4F72/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/C38A508AD2E6C88/standard.jpg

Shortening the bolt. The bright area to the right of the chuck is being reduced in OD, and will then be parted off on it's left end. The rear of the bolt (in the chuck jaws) will then be bored out to accept the reduced area created previously, and then welded together. Right photo has the bolt and action welded.

http://www.fototime.com/0D4798327EAC454/standard.jpg

Shortening the firing pin. Cutting in new cocking piece keys. Those to the right were the original ones.

End part one........................

Buckshot,

That's been the end to part one years ago. When you going to finish that rifle? Or have you?

Joe

[Dale53]

That is an ambitious project.

Dale53

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/F246BB1FDB4371E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/5EA94B613445A40/standard.jpg

The new shortened firing pin. No, your eyes are okay. Just a *** old camera. The tail end of the pin will eventually be parted off. The bolt spigoted together before welding.

http://www.fototime.com/9791792F57864C9/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/071A0EB45795839/standard.jpg

A couple photo's of both sides of the action after welding and grinding.

http://www.fototime.com/2821280E2C9CF3D/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AEADFA280B7829D/standard.jpg

The extractor was naturally shortened also. Right Photo shows the relationship between the firing pin, bolt shroud and cocking piece in the "Fired" position. The problem is that the mainspring bears against the nose of the bolt shroud, where the buttress threads are, and the collar on the firing pin. The 2" shown is the distance between them when fired.

To disassemble the bolt to replace the firing pin or mainspring, or for that matter to ASSEMBLE the bolt, it is basically impossible to have a mainspring on the shortened firing pin. To assemble the bolt is the same as for a large ring Mauser. 1) You put the mainspring on the firing pin. 2) Then the bolt shroud is placed on the rear end of the firing pin, and then pressed downward against pressure of the mainspring. Herein lies the issue. 3) The bolt shroud has to be pressed down far enough to allow the cocking piece's sear nose to clear the rear of the bolt shroud, as the cocking piece is rotated 90 degress to engage the firing pin keys.

The firing pin has been shortened enough so that as the bolt shroud is pushed down, it's nose comes to within about 1/4" of the collar on the firing pin. This collar is what the front of the mainspring pushes against. There is no way to have a mainspring in position, as it will NOT collapse to that short length, yet expand with suffucient power to drive the firing pin forward to strike the primer.

http://www.fototime.com/E3816209956D6BC/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E3B79ABFAEF59FD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/70E5F8173D83A67/standard.jpg

These 3 photo's are of the action (Before being shortened) afixed to a mockup to hold both the action and the magazine in place. Firstly to determine how much of the action could be sectioned out, and then later to determine the magazine angles for fabricating a magazine housing to hold and retain the magazine. The bolt and wingnut is used to clamp the magazine in place by pinching the slot closed against the magazine.

LEFT PHOTO: This is the magazine in the proper position. It was easy to find. Just close the bolt and push the mag up until it bottomed fully against the bolt.

CENTER PHOTO: The bolt moving forward and about to strip one off.

RIGHT PHOTO: I opened the lips of the magazine so only about 1/4" of the feed lips at the rear was holding the cartridge. The bolt only had to move it forward that distance before the rim was captured by the extractor.

The reason it needs to be captured so soon is evident by how close and steep the feed ramp is. Not being a long cartridge, as it fed forward up the ramp the angle of the cartridge base to the boltface becomes acute. Captured early in the process, the rim slips nicely up under the extractor.

....................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

That's been the end to part one years ago. When you going to finish that rifle? Or have you?

Joe

.............Joe, nope not finished and still as it was. Cute as a bug but I haven't spent any thoughtfull hours trying to figure a way around the mainspring delimma yet. No sense getting all carried away :-). About all I can figure is mods to the Mauser system, to put the sear on the cocking piece way at it's back instead of almost a 1/4" AHEAD of it's body.

That also means a modification of the trigger assembly. Nothing ever seems to be a gimmie :-)

BTW, if anyone needs to or would like to borrow the milling and welding jigs I'd be happy to lend them out.

.................Buckshot

[StarMetal]

.............Joe, nope not finished and still as it was. Cute as a bug but I haven't spent any thoughtfull hours trying to figure a way around the mainspring delimma yet. No sense getting all carried away :-). About all I can figure is mods to the Mauser system, to put the sear on the cocking piece way at it's back instead of almost a 1/4" AHEAD of it's body.

That also means a modification of the trigger assembly. Nothing ever seems to be a gimmie :-)

BTW, if anyone needs to or would like to borrow the milling and welding jigs I'd be happy to lend them out.

.................Buckshot

Rick,

I think I'm more anxious for you to finally shoot it then you are. I think it's going to be a Jim Dandy little carbine.

Joe

[Mk42gunner]

Buckshot, I have a few ideas that may or may not work for your shortened action.

Your will be loosing a lot of weight from the firing pin assembly so you can use a lighter spring (thinner wire) maybe a 1911 recoil spring?

Looking at my 1893 Mauser; you could gain about 1/4" cutting the cocking piece back and only 1/8" trimming the front of the bolt shroud; but how much can you cut from the rear of the shroud?

You may have to use trigger with a safety on it.

Maybe some combination of 93 and 98 shroud and cocking piece.


Most expensive and probably won't work -- How about a cock on opening conversion like the Dayton-Traister?

It is kind of hard to tell if any of these ideas will work when I can't hold the pices in my hands.

I like reading about projects.

Good Luck

Robert

[Cactus Farmer]

Buckshot,
Back in 1968 during my USAF time,a gunsmith for the Air Force In San Antonio build a 98 Mauser and had the same problem you are having. I'm trying to remember what he did......
It shot great,fitted with a 1.5 to 4 Lyman Alaskan scope it would pluck a squirrel out of a tree in a flash and if it was hugging the tree and you got a "bark it" shot the skin wasn't even broken. At 50 yards the groups with FMJ Winchester Match wadcutters were a ragged hole.

[NickSS]

The Brits made a sniper rifle for commando raids in WWII. It was a cut down No 4 enfield action with a built in suppressor in 45 ACP. They used it for silently taking out senturies.

[jdgabbard]

Rhineland Arms was the company that was producing the 45 carbine kit that had the write up in Shotgun news some years back.

Rhineland Arms (http://www.troupsystems.com/)

[BarryinIN]

Buckshot-
That's too cool even if you never finish it.

[EMC45]

The Brits made a sniper rifle for commando raids in WWII. It was a cut down No 4 enfield action with a built in suppressor in 45 ACP. They used it for silently taking out senturies.

Delisle.

[jnovotny]

You will be surprised by the accuracy of the 45 round. A friend of mine has an auto ordance tommy gun and I was knocking bowling pins down at 75 to 80 yards one after the other.

[Spector]

You know Buckshot, on November 23rd it will be 39 years since I departed the USS NOA DD-841 for the last time ready to rejoin civilian life. I was a gunners mate. When I came aboard they put me in charge of mount 52. When I objected they said ''tough''. I made one very interesting mideast cruise on her.

When did you serve aboard the NOA?

I first served aboard the USS Kenneth D. Bailey DDR-713, until we decommisioned her in Orange, TX........Mike

[Shooter6br]

Have a Mech Tech conversion Fun to shoot 45 acp Out of a carbine

[Shooter6br]

here is pic

[Buckshot]

You know Buckshot, on November 23rd it will be 39 years since I departed the USS NOA DD-841 for the last time ready to rejoin civilian life. I was a gunners mate. When I came aboard they put me in charge of mount 52. When I objected they said ''tough''. I made one very interesting mideast cruise on her.

When did you serve aboard the NOA?

I first served aboard the USS Kenneth D. Bailey DDR-713, until we decommisioned her in Orange, TX........Mike

Hey Mike! :-)

http://www.fototime.com/1898935F91C260A/standard.jpg

That was '71 to '73 for me, so we just missed each other. Did you know they're having a reunion up in NY next year? I was an IC3. I made one of those "Armpit" cruises to the Mid-East also. Ah, we hit some nice places, but a couple putrid places too. You know the IC shop was right there aft of the scullery and below the wardroom? Everytime they'd shoot those 5 inchers we'd have all manner of crud and corruption break loose and fly out of the vents and down off the overhead! Raining dirt, dust and paint chips, HA!

.............Buckshot

[BarryinIN]

Have a Mech Tech conversion Fun to shoot 45 acp Out of a carbine

Do you really like it? I keep thinking about those.
I had looked at the Rhineland Arms conversions, but they seemed to be a little slow in coming. I don't recall exact figures, but the MechTech didn't cost any more, and perhaps more importantly- it was available. It isn't a permanant change like the Rhineland conversion either.

Jeff Cooper wrote of a "Thumper" concept a few times, which was a short barreled semiauto carbine shooting a big bore pistol round (he proposed the 44 AutoMag round since it stacked easily in a magazine being rimless). He planned it for short range military use, like for issue to non-front-line troops (like the M1 Carbine was planned for), but it always sounded interesting to me for a lot of other things.
The MechTech in a couple of the chamberings is about the closest thing to it. The version in 460 Rowland in particular is the one that keeps getting my attention. The MechTech website has ballistic figures for the 460 Rowland in the CCU , and they look pretty good.

But Buckshot's action-shortening conversion is a lot niftier to me! Oh, for the lack of skills...

[Spector]

Buckshot.....I remember when our division officer came to me and told me I had to paint over my deck gray deck around MT 52 with white paint. I was told it just got too hot in the ward room for the officers.

Since we had the Commadore aboard we fired a lot of 21 gun salutes. using MT 52 and black powder saluting charges. This black stringy, gooey mess would issue forth from those 5'' muzzles and the wind would distribute it all over our white deck. I remember my gun crew and me scrubbing with lye soap cleaning it up. The stains remained in the white paint though so we were told to paint the deck again.

And so it went for the rest of that cruise, scrub that deck and then repaint it white each time we fired those salutes. Trust me you weren't the only one who wished those guns remained silent.....at least near port.

I guess I had a bad attitude. ha ha The Commadore wanted me court martialed when both guns malfunctioned during a live fire exercise. He never did know the truth of what really happened and the fact that we fixed everthing using unlogged parts from the ordinance storeroom. We worked into the wee hours of the morning. Finally, using a long prybar to get an operating shaft back into tolerance I got the last gun working as good as new. He was looking for a scapegoat, but I was determined it was not going to be me. To their dismay they discovered they did not have me at all. The weapons officer covered for us with the old man. I struck a deal with the weapons officer and it just went away. The Commadore thought he had what he wanted, although he didn't.

I loved India, except for the amoebic dysentary part. After that I ate what I wanted there. About half of the crew got it from the water barge they furnished.

I shot rifle and pistol matches in the Seychelles against the British and a police team.. The British claimed I had cheated with my M-1 Garand, but my high score was upheld. I learned the hard way that too much alcohol the night before a pistol match is not smart. I was lucky to hold the corners of the target that morning.

The 3 gunners mates who worked for me were Bartlett, Crone and Gosney. I know Bartlett was still onboard for at least part of 71.

You're the first NOA sailor I've talked with in all these years. I kept in touch with one of my old Kennrth D. Bailey shipmates, but it was only in the last 10 years that I heard from 6 more.

I'd like to come to one of the NOA reunions, but I refuse to vacation in any state that does not allow citizens to carry concealed handguns. I have a lifetime personal protection permit in Indiana. Some states have reciprocity with Indiana, some don't.

Indiana has a centerfire cartridge case length limit of 1.160'' to 1.625'' for deer hunting, and a minimum caliber of .357''. I had thought about trying to modify a 7.62x54 case into a 35 caliber. Little or no magazine work in a Mosin Nagant I thought and hopefully no feeding issues.. Then I started working on the concept of a 44 caliber version. A shorter case should allow it to feed without magazine work, although the Lee 310 grain cast bulet has too much meplate for easy magazine feed in a short case. I've been piddling with 44 Mag length cases, 454 Casaul length and 1.625''. Anyway some of you might want to explore that venue for a low cost steel gong ringer. Lots of relatively reasonably priced Mosins around still. Just a thought......Mike

[Shooter6br]

I love mine I had a AMT 45 acp I use that I mount a Red Dot scope on it. Functions with no problems Has 16 in match grade barrel( as per the company0 I use Lee 230 g TL with 5.7 g Universal I bought surplus 45 acp Mags (7 shot) It is a hoot to shoot. The metal stock "twangs"when shot
Nick name "Thumper"They have new options since I bought mine. Rick

[Buckshot]

............I suppose we may have hi-jacked the thread just a little bit :-) I'm sure you did pretty much what we did. We'd go down to Cuba and steam around it in circles for 2 weeks doing radar picket duty, with a couple days liberty in Gitmo. One Electrician's mate had scrounged a #10 can of pie cherries so him and a couple others bought some booze at the package store, got drunk and ate cherries. We were sitting around the table down in the compartment when he came back and hit the sack.

A bit later there was this weird noise like a diarrhetic cow. One of the guys got up and went to investigate. He said there was cherries stuck to the bulkhead, on the deck and the guy had'em in his rack but was sound asleep. Since it was generally for 2 weeks, we'd take a bunch of reserves for their 2 weeks active duty so there was generally pleanty of puke around. The commisarymen would always make a special meal the first evening out like pork chops, but they'd put food coloring in the mashed potatos and inject it into the milk bladders inside those big cardboard dispenser cartons. So we'd have green potatos and blue milk.

We had it pretty good as our shop was air conditioned. The fire controlmen shared the space but their big old mechanical computer took up a lot of their half. We had 2 racks behind our switchboards and our division officer let us stand sleeping watches. The FT's (if their berthing compartment AC was out) had to sleep on the deck. That was another nice thing about being in engineering. The enginemen took care of the AC units so the one in our berthing compartment always worked. Wasn't always the case in several others.

We stopped in Seychelles also. Beautiful place, and no doubt about it. We also stopped in Diego Garcia, but that was when they were building it. Just 5,000 sailors and Seabees and nothing to do after work except drink and fight. The Noa was anchored out in the lagoon (80 ft of water and you could see the bottom!) so we had a motor whaleboat going back and forth from the pier to the ship. I'd gone over with a DC3 named Mike Williams. We were drinking in one of the 'clubs' (large quanset hut, concrete floor and a bar at each end). There was a fight every 15 minutes.

There was a 1st class Equipment operator Seabee at the bar and he and Mike were both from Memphis so they became best buds. I don't recall what happened to Mike as he'd disappeared at some point. So that 1st class and I had become drinking buddies. The last boat out to the ship was at midnight so as it was getting close, I mentioned I had to split. He reared up and said, "Hell, I'll take ya!". We went to this place with a bunch of equipment. He told me to wait and he climbed down into this thing with tracks. Heck it could have been a WW2 Alligator for all I knew. It was good sized and had tracks.

I remember it was a brilliant clear evening and the white sand was dazzeling. There were Coconut Palms all over so we were dappled in shade. I could hear him in there clanking and banging around. Pretty soon the engine began cranking. And cranking and cranking. He stuck his head out and said something to me but I couldn't understand what he'd said, and then the engine bagan cranking again. It was almost midnight and I just took off running. I don't know if he ever got it to fire or not. I fell into a trench and there was some steel or something in it and I got a good divit in my left thigh.

I made the last boat with some time to sprare so I was okay there. I also had blood in my sock and in my boondockers from my fall. Looking back on that possible escapade it's no doubt to the best that he couldn't get that thing to fire up. We'd have probably capsized and drowned or he'd have rammed the ship and sunk it right there in the lagoon :-)

.............Buckshot

[Lee W]

No destroyers here, but I did stay on the USS JFK for over a year during the early 90s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_F._Kennedy_%28CV-67%29

I also have a MechTech and a FN FAL in 45 using Thompson mags. I am still messing with it to shoot 100% with all the mags.

[WineMan]

Buckshot,

It must be a little strange that in this thread you had a Spanish Destroyer Carbine and your Destroyer DD-841 was transferred to Spain in October of 1973 and became the Blas de Lezo. Funny coincidence.

Always get something new from your posts.


Wineman.

PS. The new Costco Old Vine Zin available in January was made by us.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,

It must be a little strange that in this thread you had a Spanish Destroyer Carbine and your Destroyer DD-841 was transferred to Spain in October of 1973 and became the Blas de Lezo. Funny coincidence.

Always get something new from your posts.


Wineman.

PS. The new Costco Old Vine Zin available in January was made by us.

...........She was transfered about 9 months after I was discharged. Other then a different hull number and placement she looked the same. She came home to be sold and scrapped. So far as Costco goes, that my wife's thing. Personally I stay as far away from it as possible :-)

............Buckshot