My Whitworth

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/548567BB2A00AA9/standard.jpg

...........It's supposed to be representative of a British 1862 Military Match rifle. It's a reasonable facsimile in any regard.

http://www.fototime.com/037950A91DF99C5/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/47AAE1824005E83/standard.jpg

It's a very well made rifle, all things considered. I also paid more for this rifle then any other I own. The front sight was originally a beaded post in a hood. I added the insert tunnel.

http://www.fototime.com/DEE1C8394B6FFD0/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1D8F7FECFE6061E/standard.jpg

The rear sight is your standard Enfield ML'er style except it had a windage adjustable plate with a "V" in it, on the fornt of the staff. I replaced it with the plate and peep deal.

http://www.fototime.com/A965B1DC5192BF4/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8376705EBEA9416/standard.jpg

The lock is straight military Enfield, just marked differently. The barrel was made by Parker-Hale, but the rifle was assembled in Italy, with also at least the finishing of other parts. Most did have the P-H cast in, but I do not think the internal lock parts had recieved the same care of fit and finish that Parker-Hale would have provided. I had to do some smoothing and refining.

http://www.fototime.com/0AF53E3DEEEAD3F/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/389C44CB8FB4DA8/standard.jpg

A closeup of the bore configuration and it's namesake is noted on the left side of the barrel in the right photo.

................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/FE0A69EE17A5CC7/standard.jpg

............Several years ago when I took this photo, these were all the slugs I'd used in the Whitworth. From the left: The Polisar slug was one that was offered for sale, and the couple examples I had were samples I'd bought. They were advertised as sawaged to form and came paper patched. The paper patched Lyman 457121-PH is a current design ment to be fired as a grease grooved slug in the Whitworth. It drops at about .452" cast of 20-1. An as cast example is at the far right of the photo.

If you're hunting an available reasonably priced mould to use for paper patching for use in a 45 cal cartridge rifle, this'd sure be a fine one. A fine flat nose and 475 grs is a good combination. In the Whitworth it's a very fine shooting slug naked OR patched. Next is the Lyman 457132 @ 525grs, and patched. Cast of 20-1 and rolled on a case lube pad, it's easily sized to .450". Then patched with 9# airmail paper and re-sized to .452". The nose on my example drops too small for me at .448", but may be fine for a BPC rifle as it may clear the fouling when chambered?

The next up is a so called 'custom' brass mould I had made. At the time a guy south of me was advertising custom moulds in the Shotgun News. This was probably about 1997 or so. His dad had been a modelmaker and had a small British 7" lathe. The dad passed away so the guy decided he'd go into the custom mould business :-) He was actually quite a nice guy and admitted making moulds seemed like a good idea at the time! He really didn't want to send the mould to me and wanted to refund my $65 as he said it hadn't turned out to well.

I wanted it anyway so he sent it to me and sent back half of my money! The whole reason for it was I had a 2 piece set of swage blocks to form the hexagonal slugs. Or so they (Gibbs Rifle Co) said. The instructions said to use a 50 cal slug with the blocks. Uh-huh, right:holysheep. Your supposed to use the blocks in a vise. Squeeze the bejabbers out fo them (lead squeezing out all over) take the slug out and then trim all the 'flash' off. Replace the slug in the blocks and get after it again. A send flash trimming session was required.

They DID make a hexagonal slug, but as you might imagine it shot poorly, to be generous. Having said all that, a company in Tennessee had made theblocks and they were a work of art, truly. And harder and tougher then and anvil too. I used them to take 'as cast' 45 cal slugs @ like .459/.460" and swage a partial hex shape on them. They shot no better then one lube-sized .459" and then run through a Lee .452" size die.

Anyway, the custom mould was an adjustable cavity with a cup base and dropped at .465". The guy had totally blown the ogive. The radius on the alignment pins was apparently put on with a wood rasp. Other that it worked.

The Kranen design was made by a gentleman who produced the actual moulds to make them. He lived on an island in the English Channel, and was a Belgium IIRC. Due to the shape of the boolit to get a sharp casting with the correct twist, it's impossible to use a mould with only 2 blocks. I'm guessing here but he apparently slit a steel (or iron) rod lengthwise. Then held them together somehow and turned them back truly cylindrical again on the outside. I assume he then machined half the shape into each half of the cylinder. I don't how else it could have been done?

So now he had the cavity formed into a cylinder. This cylinder was then closedly fitted into 2 normal looking block halves that accepted handles. The cylinder with the cavity essentially becoming like a cavity in the square blocks. To each half of the cylinder was a flat piece of steel which also connected at an angle to the block it was nested with. There was a sprueplate attached to one of the sqaure blocks, and there was also a bottom plate as is common with nose pour moulds.

After pouring the slug and striking the sprueplate, when you opened the handles causing the 2 square blocks to move away form each other, the above mentioned rods caused each half of the cylindrical cavity piece to ROTATE away from each other as they also moved apart in a shallow arc as is normal to a regular 2 piece mould. Ingeneous if you ask me, but not worth the trouble! The remaining slugs are self explanatory.

http://www.fototime.com/4C9F502AC298773/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

In the meantime I'd bought a Walnut Hill swaging press, core mould and swage dies to produce slugs for paper patching. Those on the left were my first effort before I knew what I was doing :-) I forget now what they weighed but they were too heavy. It was either 560 or 580 grs, but I really wanted 525/535 gr slugs, as those on the right are. I did shoot those heavy ones but they didn't do anything better then the more common weighted ones.

http://www.fototime.com/E606B50D9F03BFA/standard.jpg

Whitworth. 530gr Swaged paper patched to .451". 85.0grs Elephant 2 Fg, lubed felt wad. This is pretty common for the rifle. If I had better sights, or more honestly if this was the only rifle I had to fool with, I could probably cut that group size in half.

http://www.fototime.com/7F892387129D594/standard.jpg

Five shot groups at 200 meters aren't much larger. This was shot the same day. Same load at 200 meters and would have been tighter had it not been for the flyer. I suppose at 100 yards the slugs might still be 'hunting' but I don't have enough evidence one way or another to say for sure.

...............Buckshot

[oldhickory]

Please don't do this to me!...A Whitworth has been on my "someday" list for a while now![smilie=s:

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

just go ahead and rub it in, willya!

Rich

[Potsy]

An older gentleman at the range I shoot at brings one every now and then.
At one time he had one of those long Malcom scopes on it. The thing just oozed cool.
Ah, someday......

[StrawHat]

Buckshot,

I have always liked the idea of the Whitworth but never got one. Now the good ones are gone. How does your Whitworth stack up to the Target Enfields?

Thanks

[451whitworth]

Buckshot,

I have always liked the idea of the Whitworth but never got one. Now the good ones are gone. How does your Whitworth stack up to the Target Enfields?

Thanks

StrawHat, i have an original first gen. Birmingham PH Whitworth and a total Italian made Euro Arms model. although the PH has a much nicer stock, barrel bands, lock, and general workmanship it shoots no more accurately than the Euro Arms model. i have no problems with the fit and finish of the Italian model. i am currently working on a hex mould prototype with hollow base and grease grooves. it is very complicated machine work. once i get it right i will take it to my friend who has a machine shop so he can write the CNC program for it.

[Lead Fred]

My fav muzzle stuffer ever. Got to shoot a friends years ago.

[Mk42gunner]

Buckshot, I have wanted a Whitworth for years; every time I get myself convinced that I don't want one, you post more pictures of yours for me to drool over.


Robert

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, I have wanted a Whitworth for years; every time I get myself convinced that I don't want one, you post more pictures of yours for me to drool over.


Robert

............IIRC I think I paid $875 for mine about 12 years ago, and it doesn't seem like they're gettng any cheaper. If you check the usual suspects weekly you can run across a used one for sale every now and then.

.............Buckshot

[dualsport]

I would give my lefnut to have that gun. If interested pm mailing instructions.

[Buckshot]

I would give my lefnut to have that gun. If interested pm mailing instructions.

...............Pecantonica River offers a Rigby clone kit. I built one some years back.

http://www.fototime.com/79E8B23CAB84AC7/standard.jpg

Not a real good photo, as it was an old camera.

http://www.fototime.com/643BCEA85446EA3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/252FAAEEFDECA72/standard.jpg

The walnut stock was exceedingly well inlet, leaving only about 1/16" to be finished around the lock. It comes with a 32" Green Mountain 18" twist 45 cal bbl. I had them install the breechplug. The kit does NOT include a forend tip, or sights. A minor thing is that the breech doesn't have a blow out plug, which a rifle like this would have. It does have a patent breech (powder chamber) and a breakoff breech for easy barrel removal.There are 2 problems with the kit as I see it. First of all the lock is not a 3 pin lock. The sear is carried on a bridle screw instead of it's own, but the tumbler does have a fly. The other problem is that the tang of the breechplug isn't long enough for a tangsight.

You either have to inlet a metal plate into the wrist to attach the tangsight to (Assuming you were planning on using one) or do as I did. That was to cut off the original one and weld on a longer piece of steel, shape it and then inlet it.

http://www.fototime.com/57421DC9AAF1E5B/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/BE135D6E73B7ADE/standard.jpg

The tangsight was one of the less expensive Italian ones. I made the mounting block, cut the staff off it's base and welded it to mine, then made the brass knobed attaching screw. The front sight is one for the Swedish Ag42B semi-automatic rifle. I filed the base to fit the octagon barrel and silver soldered it in place. It has some windage adjustment, and it looks rather at home:-)

It is very accurate, and like the Whitworth is pretty much a muzzle loading 45-90.

..............Buckshot

[Minorkey]

This is the Leon Kranen mould for the Whitworth bullet. I think it is an amazing piece of precision engineering.My guess is that it is produced by spark erosion. The bullet is formed by three components not two halves. He also makes a mould without cannelures. The catch is that the mould is very expensive.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4797217874_4ec1c19eb2_b.jpg

[SamTexas49]

can I give dualsport othe nut and be on a wannit list too ?

[oldhickory]

Welcome to the asylum, Minorkey. I was wondering when you would make it.[smilie=w:

[northmn]

I keep resisting the urge to build one of those rifles, like the Rigby because I have a RB 45-70. However I know prcatical will succumb to want to. Have always thought the Whitworth to be an interesting gun also.

Northmn

[Abert Rim]

The fact that Pedersoli will be releasing a new Whitworth in a few months got me snooping, and I found this old thread of Rick's.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/TwoWhitworthrifles004.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/TwoWhitworthrifles004.jpg.html)
My two original Whitworth Rifles.The Military .451 type is by Beasley Bros,The Match Rifle in .568 Calibre is by Joseph Whitworths Manchester Rifle and ordnance company.The 451 has a 1 in 20 twist,the 568 has a 1 in 26 inch Twist.I have modified a Lyman minea mould to near Whitworths specifications With a Hollow Base and hollow nose.The nose having a wooden Plug as follows.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/sidepourmouldforlargewhitworthRifle002.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/sidepourmouldforlargewhitworthRifle002.jpg.html)
Here is the side pour mould to produce a longer bullet with Hollow base and Nose.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/SectionedBullet002.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/SectionedBullet002.jpg.html)
A sectioned bullet.

[wgr]

it takes an evil man to post that. i want one

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/001-44.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/001-44.jpg.html)
A standard Bullet for my Euro arms pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle against the Hollow Nosed Whitworth Bullet.It was necessary to swage down the Whit Bullet to .568.

[Col4570]

A Batch of Bullets for the Whitworthhttp://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/003-16.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/003-16.jpg.html)

[Red River Rick]

Something to ponder..............

540 grain, 0.440 across the flats, 1.350" OAL, 1 - 20" twist. Cast with 97/1.5/1.5.

RRR

197066

[Kitika]

Did you make that Rick? How does it shoot?

[Buckshot]

..............Nice looking bit of work there Rick. Was that done with a plunge EDM setup? Years ago there was an outfit that had made a repo Spenser carbine, and some other stuff, along with a mould for the Whitworth. However, their iteration had a mild boat tail. Possibly there to help in loading? In any event I was working with a guy in Alabama who had a Whitworth and who'd bought the mould I spoke of. He offered to send me 20 of them for the shipping which I was glad to do.

Upon receipt of the slugs I straightaway tried one in the muzzle of my Whitworth rifle. The slugs provided were a bit of a somewhat loose fit in the bore. Loose enough for me to think that paper patching them might have had some benefit. I never bothered as only having 20 would have only made the barest beginning of see what they would do, so I never bothered. The slugs he provided weighed 560 grs, if I recall after all this time. I believe the loose fit was due to the fact that the hex form was blurred enough to allow them to be cast in (and more importantly) allowed the 2 blocks to move apart to release the slug :-)

Not too long after that I ended up buying a Walnut Hill swage press from Richard Corbin and a set of swage dies to produce a .443" slug for paper patching.

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4C9F502AC298773/standard.jpg

The patched ones on the left are 530gr HP with a shallow cup base. Those on the right were 560gr slugs, which I decided I didn't need to patch up and shoot as the 530gr slugs produced enough excitement to keep me satisfied :-)

...............Buckshot

[Red River Rick]

Kitika:

Yes, I machined the mould.

Sadly, I haven’t had a chance to get out to the range to test out this bullet, hopefully soon. I too, am curious to see how well they’ll shoot.

Two of the test rifles that’ll I’ll be using are original Whitworth Rifles. One is Whitworth Sporter and the other a Whitworth Match. The other two are a Parker-Hale Whitworth and a new Pedersoli Whitworth.

Buckshot:

The mould was machined on a 4 axis CNC machining center, in conjunction with some powerful CAD/CAM software.

It took some thinking and few prototypes before I was satisfied with the end result. It turned out far better than I had anticipated.

Paper will tell real story weather or not it was all worth the effort.;-)

RRR

[Pavia]

I recently picked up a Whitworth from DGW. It's a Navy Arms marked Pedersoli Parker Hale Whitworth made in 2015 (well proofed in 2015 anyway). I've been getting excellent results with the Lyman 457121 PH in pure lead sized .450 or .448, pan lubed with beeswax/olive oil, and followed by a lubed 45 felt wad. Sizing to .448 seems to load about perfect without having to man-handle the seating of the bullet.

I also have high hopes for the Lyman 457132 Postell bullet. They are tougher for me to size down in my Lyman 4500 sizer. Pure lead deforms when trying to go past .452, as this bullet drops from my mold at .457.

I'm trying 30-1 lead for a harder bullet and stepping down the sizing of the 457132 (.454 then .452 then .450) to limit deforming.

Another bullet I will try is the Lyman 457671. This 470gr bullet is a Gas Check design, but I got the mold real cheap and I don't think the Whitworth cares if I don't use a GC. The shape looks very similar to the bullets shown in this thread.

80gr of FFg Goex seems to be the sweet spot for me at the range...

All the best. Great thread!

197449

[Pavia]

Kitika:

Yes, I machined the mould.

Sadly, I haven’t had a chance to get out to the range to test out this bullet, hopefully soon. I too, am curious to see how well they’ll shoot.

Two of the test rifles that’ll I’ll be using are original Whitworth Rifles. One is Whitworth Sporter and the other a Whitworth Match. The other two are a Parker-Hale Whitworth and a new Pedersoli Whitworth.

Buckshot:

The mould was machined on a 4 axis CNC machining center, in conjunction with some powerful CAD/CAM software.

It took some thinking and few prototypes before I was satisfied with the end result. It turned out far better than I had anticipated.

Paper will tell real story weather or not it was all worth the effort.;-)

RRR

Looking forward to a successful test and hopefully production!

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=Pavia;4072405]I recently picked up a Whitworth from DGW. It's a Navy Arms marked Pedersoli Parker Hale Whitworth made in 2015 (well proofed in 2015 anyway). I've been getting excellent results with the Lyman 457121 PH in pure lead sized .450 or .448, pan lubed with beeswax/olive oil, and followed by a lubed 45 felt wad. Sizing to .448 seems to load about perfect without having to man-handle the seating of the bullet.

I also have high hopes for the Lyman 457132 Postell bullet. They are tougher for me to size down in my Lyman 4500 sizer. Pure lead deforms when trying to go past .452, as this bullet drops from my mold at .457.

I'm trying 30-1 lead for a harder bullet and stepping down the sizing of the 457132 (.454 then .452 then .450) to limit deforming.

..............Pavia, I'd suggest you use a Lee type push through type size die to do your sizing after the slugs have been lubed. They have a MUCH longer tapered leade into the sizing area, plus you're pushing from the base instead of the nose. The smallest in .45 cal they make is .451", and I've used them sized to that for both my Whitworth and the Rigby type match rifle (which has a .450" bore).

..............Buckshot

[Pavia]

[QUOTE=Pavia;4072405]I recently picked up a Whitworth from DGW. It's a Navy Arms marked Pedersoli Parker Hale Whitworth made in 2015 (well proofed in 2015 anyway). I've been getting excellent results with the Lyman 457121 PH in pure lead sized .450 or .448, pan lubed with beeswax/olive oil, and followed by a lubed 45 felt wad. Sizing to .448 seems to load about perfect without having to man-handle the seating of the bullet.

I also have high hopes for the Lyman 457132 Postell bullet. They are tougher for me to size down in my Lyman 4500 sizer. Pure lead deforms when trying to go past .452, as this bullet drops from my mold at .457.

I'm trying 30-1 lead for a harder bullet and stepping down the sizing of the 457132 (.454 then .452 then .450) to limit deforming.

..............Pavia, I'd suggest you use a Lee type push through type size die to do your sizing after the slugs have been lubed. They have a MUCH longer tapered leade into the sizing area, plus you're pushing from the base instead of the nose. The smallest in .45 cal they make is .451", and I've used them sized to that for both my Whitworth and the Rigby type match rifle (which has a .450" bore).

..............Buckshot

Thanks. I'll try the Lee. I was worried about the .451 sized, as even my .450 bullets can be tough to start. I heard you want to be able to easily seat the bullet on a Whitworth for best accuracy.

BTW... Do you have any insight on these swaged bullets?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/510460/montana-precision-swaging-cast-bullets-45-caliber-448-diameter-580-grain-lead-whitworth-hex-type-round-nose-non-lubricated-box-of-50

[Pavia]

I think I'm getting the Whitworth dialed in...

197674

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=Buckshot;4074153]



BTW... Do you have any insight on these swaged bullets?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/510460/montana-precision-swaging-cast-bullets-45-caliber-448-diameter-580-grain-lead-whitworth-hex-type-round-nose-non-lubricated-box-of-50

............The bullet shown there on the Midway webpage was cast and not swagged. That's the same Whitworth type bullet I mentioned in my previous post as having a slight boat tail, and the design was blurred enough to allow use in a 2 block set of mould blocks. I think the company that was offering the moulds was also making Spenser carbines, and was located in New York state.

http://www.fototime.com/81FA683BF98B11F/standard.jpg

So far as I know the only effective mould for the Whitworth hexagonal boolit (to this date)* was make by a gentleman named Kranen. In the above photo the slug labeled Kranen came from one of his moulds.

http://www.fototime.com/814918CF98F29E6/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/80075F5A81B824A/standard.jpg

The above is a couple photo's of his mould. The left photo shows the 3rd (rotating piece) face up in the center of the 2 large blocks. In the right photo we have a view of the back of the rotatable piece. This 3rd piece allowed the mould to be cut to much sharper dimensions, as it would rotate enough to help free it from the 2 main blocks.

Lest a person should get all worked up over NOT having a REAL Whitworth bullet or one like the above, just remember that by a very long shot, more cylindrical paper patched and grease grooved bullets exited the Whitworth's muzzle then ever did any 'Fitted Hex Slugs".

* We'll have wait for Red River Rick to give us a report on his mould.

.............Buckshot

[ResearchPress]

Something to ponder..............
540 grain, 0.440 across the flats, 1.350" OAL, 1 - 20" twist. Cast with 97/1.5/1.5.

Nice! Keen to see the results of this. Keep us informed.

David

[Pavia]

Great thread. So... I saw this Lyman mould on Amazon for $30 with free shipping. I jumped on it, as it was a Lyman mould. Number 457671. .457caliber GC with a similar profile as the 457132 Postell. Well, not quite, but hey... maybe better?

I figured $30 was worth the chance for finding a new Whitworth bullet. I just cast some 30-1 lead. Bullet dropped at around 482grs and .455 diameter. I'll lube and size it to .450 and give it a go. I don't think the GC base will be a problem. In fact it might ease loading for a muzzleloader. Of course I won't put a gas check on it...

Sorry for the crappy pic...
198600

[Pavia]

The 30-1 Lyman mold 457671, as described above, did well. Three shots, plus one fouling shot in the bullseye at 50 yds. One lubed wad over 80grs FFg. Pan lubed with beeswax and olive oil and sized .450 in a Lyman 4500. I might try this bullet in pure lead, as it sized very easily in the Lyman press.

I need to address the sights on this Whitworth. Large front sight, combined with a very deep v notch rear sight is not helping accuracy. I don't think General Sedgwick was sniped with these sights... lol. The peep sight mod in the first post looks good.

198898

[woodbutcher]

:drinks: Fascinating post.I`ll saddle up and ride along.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/037950A91DF99C5/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/BEFA042F1FE6686/standard.jpg

.............As seen above, I swapped out the original hooded 'Bead on a post' front sight.

http://www.fototime.com/1D8F7FECFE6061E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/DEE1C8394B6FFD0/standard.jpg

For the rear I fabbed up a simple peep blade to replace the original military 'V' style with which the rifle was originally supplied. It DOES make a difference.

Accuracy at 50 yards may not tell the entire tale as those long heavy slugs out of a 20" twist could not be stable and still 'Hunting', out to 100 yards or more before settling down.

.............Buckshot

[Pavia]

Is that peep sight screwed on? Any tang sights fit?

[Buckshot]

The rear peep sight fits the original rear sight elevator and is a peep instead of the original "V" blade rear sight, and yes there is a screw on the end of the ladder that retained the original 'V' blade.

So far as a tang sight for this rifle you'd have to attach it's base to the wood behind the tang, as the tang isn't long enough to mount a sight on.

.............Buckshot