Ideal Casting temp?

[ETG]

Is there an ideal casting temp for different alloys?

[felix]

Most definitely yes. Make a pile of boolits. If 80 percent of them are within 0.1 grain variance, you have the perfect temperature for that mold and alloy. Adjust either the temp or alloy, or both, to make that quality. ... felix

[ETG]

I seem to be getting 2-4 gn varience. I just got a thermometer so now I have an idea of the temp. Also just got a new 20# Lee pot. If your getting a lot of varience with good fill out would you raise or lower temp?

[stephen perry]

ETG
I would start at 700 deg. I use a thermo to check each time never varies with my LEE 10. To get a 700 temp I set my LEE pot on 8.25 and leave it there, I use all WW. Hate to step on someones nose but all this talk of 0.1 grn cast bullets is garbage. I have weighed cast bullets for 47 years on balance beam and electronic scales. For 22/6 bullets you are doing well with .3 grn variance. For 140 grn pistol bullets .5 grn variance are keepers. For 200 grn I keep em .8 grn variance. I have not cast much over 200 grn rifle or pistol. My max cast is 452 374 about 225 grn. I am getting a 454 Casull rifle next year and plan on casting some 310's.

Actually I would not pitch any Cast no matter what they weigh if I visually inspected them and thought the bases were right. That's just me.
Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[dsmjon]

Do yall use an immersed thermometer? I'm curious if an IR touchless thermometer would suffice.. just one less thing I'd need to buy..

[ETG]

I'm using an immersed thermocouple.

[Ctkelly]

See the casting equipment section. There was talk of IR thermometers being used there. The big problem most ran into is the cheaper models didnt have an adjustment for sensitivity/reflectiveness of lead. In other words, because it was mirror like surface many had trouble getting a good reading.

Tel-tru had thermometers at a reasonable price if you cant get your IR to take a good temp. Looks alot like some of the bigger name models that carry price tags twice as much.

http://www.teltru.com/p-272-big-green-egg-grill-dome-kamado-replacement-thermometer-lt225r-2001000-degrees-f.aspx

[lwknight]

The IR thermometer if not reliable on shiny or semi shiny surfaces. If you leave dross as an insulator to oxygen the IR will not read accurately either.

[MT Gianni]

Some molds like different temps. Write it diwn when you find it. It is usually different for Aluminum and iron.

[243winxb]

Is there an ideal casting temp for different alloys? We cast with Scrap Metals, each pot is different, so my answer is No. Who knows whats in the alloy?? I start my Lee 10lb pot at max. When i have good bullets i move it to the markings on the pot, about 8.5, i have no idea what the temperature is. The variance on the weight will be larger on short fat bullets (45acp) and a lot less on long skinny ones like 30caliber rifle. Don't forget, some mould cavities are not cut with the same tool.

[montana_charlie]

Is there an ideal casting temp for different alloys?
I believe there is, but it is a balance between the temperature of the molten metal and the temperature of the mould...and a mould has a sweet spot where it just can do no wrong.

Along this very line of thought, I was casting yesterday and did some careful observation of temperatures.

I planned to use two 540 grain paper patch moulds, so I put the first one on the hotplate (set for 500 degrees) to preheat.
I find that is a good starting temperature for the mould. It won't be perfect for the first few bullets, but I can 'adjust it' by varying the ryhthm until it hits the sweet spot.

I got the mould working right...good fillout, good base, no frost...and cast 25 nice ones. I was monitoring the pot temp with an immersion K-type thermocouple. The alloy was running at '725 degrees', but I found a 20 degree difference between the bottom of the melt and the surface (Waage K-4757 dipper pot, 90% full) with the deep alloy being hotter.

(Note of interest...my Lyman thermometer reads ten degrees higher than the thermocouple.)

The other mould was preheating while I used the first one.
I 'fluxed' the pot to reduce the oxides, then played the rhythm game to get the second mould going right.
It only took three pours to get there.

I cast 13 by dipping from the surface (like with the first mould) and did the remainder of the 25 by dipping from the bottom.
All bullets were visually satisfying, but those dipped from the bottom averaged 4 tenths lighter, and varied in weight more than those from the surface.

The 25 examples from the first mould (surface dipped) were all within a weight range of 6 tenths...lightest to heaviest.

So, both of these (iron) moulds like 700 to 705 degrees alloy (surface) temperature, and both operate at optimum when using the same casting rhythm.
If one was aluminum, it would probably do well with this same alloy at this temperature, but would probably require a different rhythm to find it's sweet spot.

CM

[Bret4207]

ETG
I would start at 700 deg. I use a thermo to check each time never varies with my LEE 10. To get a 700 temp I set my LEE pot on 8.25 and leave it there, I use all WW. Hate to step on someones nose but all this talk of 0.1 grn cast bullets is garbage. I have weighed cast bullets for 47 years on balance beam and electronic scales. For 22/6 bullets you are doing well with .3 grn variance. For 140 grn pistol bullets .5 grn variance are keepers. For 200 grn I keep em .8 grn variance. I have not cast much over 200 grn rifle or pistol. My max cast is 452 374 about 225 grn. I am getting a 454 Casull rifle next year and plan on casting some 310's.

Actually I would not pitch any Cast no matter what they weigh if I visually inspected them and thought the bases were right. That's just me.
Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

Mr. Perry, around here we generally try to treat each other with respect, especially those members who have been here since day one, are actual rocket scientists and who have done more and held more records than most of us can ever hope to see. If Felix says .1 gr that's what he meant and calling it garbage is both rude and ignorant. I'm sure it was unintentional as you're new here, but good manners and a willingness to parse things in acceptable terms are part of what makes this place tick.

[felix]

Well, Bret, it appears he insists on using six cavity (22/6???) molds. I would say 0.3 grain variance is actually better than 0.1 variance from my using one cavity for a batch. His communication skills and/or his analytical skills are entirely lacking as you suggest. ... felix

[Shiloh]

Some molds like different temps. Write it diwn when you find it. It is usually different for Aluminum and iron.

Good Advice. We keep records for reloading don't we?? My Lyman 311041
likes a higher temp than other molds.


Is there an ideal casting temp for different alloys?


Yes. Your job is to find it. I cast with a lot of range and other scrap, so it varies. Not a lot, but there's a small difference. Then combine these temp differences with the proclivity of the particular mold that has its own sweetspot, and record keeping comes into play


ETG
I would start at 700 deg. I use a thermo to check each time never varies with my LEE 10. To get a 700 temp I set my LEE pot on 8.25 and leave it there, I use all WW. Hate to step on someones nose but all this talk of 0.1 grn cast bullets is garbage. I have weighed cast bullets for 47 years on balance beam and electronic scales. For 22/6 bullets you are doing well with .3 grn variance. For 140 grn pistol bullets .5 grn variance are keepers. For 200 grn I keep em .8 grn variance. I have not cast much over 200 grn rifle or pistol. My max cast is 452 374 about 225 grn. I am getting a 454 Casull rifle next year and plan on casting some 310's.

Actually I would not pitch any Cast no matter what they weigh if I visually inspected them and thought the bases were right. That's just me.
Done.


Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima


I learned this from my buddy. If it has a base and a good fillout, it gets shot.
He has a rifle that he made himself on a Winchester Mod. 70 action. Heavy barrel, globe front sight and some sort of high end micrometer rear sight.

He shoots the 10 ring out of SR-1 and SR-5 targets from the prone position. Not bad from sitting posion either. This with visually inspected boolits.
I weigh mine.

Shiloh

[Echo]

+1 Bret...

[geargnasher]

And don't disregard Felix's chrongraph techniques, either. Just like precision boolit crafting some may think it exhaustive overkill for their "ballpark" hunting load but if you want to hit what you're aiming at EVERY time at 300+ meters consistency in everything is king.

Now for blazing down 15 meter steel cutouts with a stock 1911 if the boolit will seat in the case it gets loaded.

ETG, the short answer is yes. Each alloy has a temperature that is a good compromise between viscosity and over-oxidation. Eutectic alloys have a specific freeze and melt temperature like water does, where the whole alloy changes state at the same time and evenly throughout. Viscosity is related to temperature and compostition. Tin has the (oversimplified) effect of lowering surface tension and making Pb/Sb alloy more runny, i.e. fills mould details better. Straight WW (NOT eutectic) with a low (<.5%) tin content can be cast, but the required mould and alloy temperatures are much higher and boolit quality is not as good. Lyman # 2 casts well at a much lower temperature, and, due to it's high Sn content and uniform phase change temperature, only needs to be just above "liquidus" state to flow well. Binary Pb/Sn alloys also cast well at lower temperatures. Linotype casts well, too, it's interesting to watch the difference in appearance of the sprues of different alloys as they freeze.

Gear

[stephen perry]

Felix

You can't pull accuracy out your bag of tricks. Weight of Cast down to +\- .1 grn is voodoo Cast. Bad shooting techniques negates any arrempt to refine accuracy. Do us all a favor shoot 5 groups with your .1 weighed and 5 groups with your discards as long as bases of cast are equal quality and come back and share your experience. Wheteher you respect my 47 years Cast or not I have done all the things you talk of.

My conclusion is still the same good bases shoot good. Cast variance in weight is what others worry about.

Where did I say say I cast with a 6 cavity mold for 22/6. I use single cavity for those.

My .1 comment is a general comment to those that think Casting is Rocket Science.

Not going to get in a cat fight over Cast. I do mine you do yours. Sorry I stepped on your nose Bret guess I hurt your pride.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[Marlin Hunter]

I cast with wheel weights mix. The weights are scrap and from many different countries/manufacturers. Each casting session seems to give different results. I find that frosty boolits seems to fill out the best and be the most consistent with the miscellaneous WW mix. But too hot can slump the boolit. As someone said 700*F is a good start. With a clean pot, clean lead, and a good known alloy, the boolits seem to like ~626*F. This is with my Lyman dial thermometer and Lee molds. Lee R.E.A.L and slug molds like it HOT: over 700*F

[stephen perry]

Yours is a good start with temp. I was the one who recommended 700 deg as a good starting temp. Using a thermometer will allow you to adjust temp and record it for each alloy.

Time is on your side here. Enjoy your hobby.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[felix]

Stephen, if it was rocket science, not many on this board would be casting. It appears your communication is improving, but your analysis still sucks big time. Please, let's end this thread between us. ... felix

[montana_charlie]

Make a pile of boolits. If 80 percent of them are within 0.1 grain variance, you have the perfect temperature for that mold and alloy.
Hate to step on someones nose but all this talk of 0.1 grn cast bullets is garbage.
As I read what felix wrote, it strikes me that he was saying that using the right temperature would result in bullets that weigh the same amount...perhaps within .1 grain...from a single cavity mould.
He did not suggest that a wider spread was a reason to start culling bullets...only that consistent weight is a product of the right temperature for that mould and alloy.
A statement of this kind is in line with the thread's topic, which was not a request for recommendations about a weight range for determining when to cull.

I have weighed cast bullets for 47 years on balance beam and electronic scales. For 22/6 bullets you are doing well with .3 grn variance. For 140 grn pistol bullets .5 grn variance are keepers. For 200 grn I keep em .8 grn variance. I have not cast much over 200 grn rifle or pistol.
If a .8 grain variance is the best you can get with your 200 grain bullets, perhaps there is something you have missed during your 47 years of slaving over a hot pot of lead.

Could it be that you are using a multi-cavity mould?

CM

[MT Gianni]

I

(Note of interest...my Lyman thermometer reads ten degrees higher than the thermocouple.)

CM
Charlie. I'm not sure the instrument differences matter that much as long as you use the same one for the same tests. I would write LY next to my Lyman reads or T next to the Thermocouple so I know it. If my molds cast well at 695F I would expect someone else to find their sweet spot rather than assume mine works for all. 10 degrees out of 700 measured is a small percentage really, but it is good to know if you are using two tools.

[stephen perry]

Montana you guys already have your favorites. What is you weigh limit on your cull numbers for 200 grn bullets. Don't try and say .1 grn. Come on over guy and show me how to Cast you act you know. Not using my years casting as an authority but there is something to longevity. Remember dude I started before internet, and I never would have heard about you or you me if it weren't for Cast Boolit. How many of you guys are here on Cast Boolit that come out when a statement is made that doesn't agree with the prescribed. This place is starting to sound like the place I just left.

As far as Felix I never invited a conversation between us I really don't need to converse with a demagogue about Casting. You cast your way doesn't affect me and my conversation is what it is Felix without your comments otherwise. Mr Felix 22/6 refers to 22 cal and 6 cal bullets not the way you read into it.
I'm done too. I'm astounded aren't we trying to help a guy here not conduct a Joust.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :holysheep

[1bluehorse]

Wow! from what I've read on this thread about all I'm doing right evidently is being in the ball park on temps. I'm usually at or near 700 degrees depending on bullet size and which mold. I realize this thread is about casting temps but the weight as cast was mentioned so fair game. I can't even come close to casting, say 100 bullets and have them come near .1 of each other. I mean maybe some will, but by far most are maybe within 2 gr. and when I decided to use 3gr for cull number I lost far fewer back to the pot. Actually I just cast 150 250gr. swc from a Lyman mold today. Using straight ww 147 were 254.5 tp 257.5. Within my cull parameters. Two cavity mold by the way. Is there somewhere on this site that has the information on how to cast to that level? I've been casting for about 10 years and thought I was doing pretty good.....maybe not????? Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.....

[montana_charlie]

Montana you guys already have your favorites. Come on over guy and show me how to Cast you act you know.
You were my pal when you posted this ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=717683&postcount=14 ) because I spoke out in support of something you said. Now, you're mad at me because I ruffled your feathers instead of stroking them.

What is you weigh limit on your cull numbers for 200 grn bullets. Don't try and say .1 grn.
In a recent thread which WAS about acceptable weight range I posted this ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=713501&postcount=2 ).
To address your question, I'll amplify on that enough to say that, in a batch of fifty, there may be enough variation to have a few that are as much as a full grain different, but the normal spread is .6 grains, lightest to heaviest.
The spread doesn't change if I decide to cast a hundred.
I will group those into (usually) three 'sets' that fall within +/- .1 grain...like 542.2, 542.4, and 542.6 since my digital bullet scale only resolves down to 'even numbers' in the tenths position.

Naturally, I'm not going to come to you to show how I do it, but the fact that it's possible should give you hope.

Not using my years casting as an authority but there is something to longevity.
That is a fact. Since I didn't buy a bullet mould until 1974 (or '75), you have a few years on me.

Remember dude I started before internet, and I never would have heard about you or you me if it weren't for Cast Boolit.
I'll certainly keep that in mind from now on.

How many of you guys are here on Cast Boolit that come out when a statement is made that doesn't agree with the prescribed. This place is starting to sound like the place I just left.
I guess that most of us are prone to speak up when something sounds out of kilter. 'How' we speak up depends a great deal on 'how' the the kilterless remark was phrased.
Saying something like 'that's garbage' can generate a reply with a sting in it, as you are learning here...and (apparently) did on the forum you recently left.

You are new here, and you haven't muddied the water very badly, yet. I am sure you can become an asset to the membership if you can refrain from sticking your foot in it.
That's not to say you have to accept everything you hear as uncontestable fact.
But, "I can't do that, myself." is not much backup for calling a guy a liar.

CM

[Bret4207]

Mr. Perry, my nose wasn't bent. I'm just pointing out that rudeness is no more acceptable here than at "that place you just left". If that's too confining for you, search out greener pastures.

[kelbro]

I do pretty well accuracy-wise with a +/- .5gr range. I have seen days where +/- .2gr was the distribution. Casting with 2-cavity molds in the 140-160gr range. Temps are usually around 725-750. I should monitor/control the temp a little better and see how close I can get them.

Whew, and I thought hand loading was going to drive me nuts. This hobby may put me over the edge :) :)

[stephen perry]

I must admit I am a muti gamed guy like some of you. I load rifle, pistol, shotgun and shoot NBRSA BR along with being a Shoot Director NBRSA/IBS at the former San Gabriel Range 13 yrs and soon to be Shoot Director at Angeles BR next year. Besides that I am a lifetime Caster which at times I enjoy more than the rest. I also make 22 & 6 cal BR jacketed bullets.

I usually calls em as I sees them. I can see that some of you guys with 3-10,000 Posts have allot of time and interest in Cast Boolit that is commendable. Some day I will have several thousand Posts. My goal here as is it was in the former Cast place is to help the little guy like myself in Cast. I fear no Felix the cat guys but respect where they came from like me one mold one dipper one pot and a couple WW. Now my garage looks like a museum of reloading equipment that I have to continually clean and organize like you guys.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR :brokenima

[robertbank]

Is there an ideal casting temp for different alloys?

From the responses the answer seems to be yes. That said, my thoughts go to what you are trying to achieve and is searching for that ideal temperature worth the effort for the application at hand.

I'm into IDPA and dabble in IPSC. I shoot rifle only to remind myself I am getting older and my eyes aren't what they used to be. A bad back eliminates any desire to hunt anymore so for me there may be an ideal temperature but for the applications I use my cast bullets for the serach isn't worth the effort. For others, and there are lots, finding tha ideal temperature is terribly important and I tip my hat to them. Their quest for this knowledge often trickles down to my applications and I thank them for it. In my opinion it really boils down to what you are trying to achieve for the application at hand.

General Comment:

What we all have to remember is this forum has members from all over the world with different backgrounds and different experiences. This provides us with a venue to learn, to share and most importantly to meet new friends. We won't always agree and that is OK, as in disagreement we have an opportunity to learn and to rethink our position. We will however, be respectful of each other. Calling them as you see them is not an acceptable excuse for rudeness....here.

Take Care

Bob

[runfiverun]

i think the alloy temp need to be tempered to the mold block size and the cavities size.
if you are casting 45 gr 22's in an rcbs block or 270 gr 45's in a lymaan block your ideal casting temp will not be the same with the same alloy.
you could tempo yourself to death at 700* with the 22's and be in a nice comfortable rythmn with the 45's.
consistent fill and cool times to the routine add a lot to weight consistency.
a trick i learned long ago was to cast to a clock with a ticking second hand for the high quality ones.

[mpmarty]

a trick i learned long ago was to cast to a clock with a ticking second hand for the high quality ones.

Hey runfive isn't that called the rhythm method?

[kelbro]

No clocks allowed in my cave :)

[montana_charlie]

Hey runfive isn't that called the rhythm method?
I think it is, and it's the method all of us Catholics use...
CM