Deciphering Lyman ID numbers

[Bucks Owin]

I recieved a used mould I bought at auction yesterday and am wondering about some of it's ID numbers. It's a double end wadcutter style and reads as follows: 35863

I know that 358 designates the diameter (after sizing I presume, boolits drop at .359" to .360") and the 63 I "think" means the design number eg the 63rd design style of a .358" mould?

However there are more numbers underneath the 35863, and they are: 42C
What does the 42C signify? (? 2 cavity?)

Curious,

Dennis

BTW, since there more than 100 different .358 designs made by Lyman over the years, my mould (if new) would now read "358063" right?

[No_1]

What is a "double ended" wadcutter. I am sure I should know but being the redneck I am, I am sure I call it by another name.

Robert


I recieved a used mould I bought at auction yesterday and am wondering about some of it's ID numbers. It's a double end wadcutter style and reads as follows: 35863

I know that 358 designates the diameter (after sizing I presume, boolits drop at .359" to .360") and the 63 I "think" means the design number eg the 63rd design style of a .358" mould?

However there are more numbers underneath the 35863, and they are: 42C
What does the 42C signify?

Curious,

Dennis

[Dale53]

A double ended wadcutter is a a symetrical design. You can load it either way. The only recognizable difference is where the sprue was cut. C.E. Harris uses one in his .38 Special "woods rifle" and loads sprue up so that he always has a perfect base.

Dale53

[No_1]

OK, so a double ended wadcutter is also the same critter as a "full" wadcutter?

Robert


A double ended wadcutter is a a symetrical design. You can load it either way. The only recognizable difference is where the sprue was cut. C.E. Harris uses one in his .38 Special "woods rifle" and loads sprue up so that he always has a perfect base.

Dale53

[Bucks Owin]

OK, so a double ended wadcutter is also the same critter as a "full" wadcutter?

Robert

Ummm, no I believe a "full wadcutter" means the meplat is the same diameter (pretty much) as the boolit. (Completely flat in front) As opposed to a "semi" wadcutter which has a front portion with a nose with ogive on it....

I "think"

Dennis

[felix]

You think right, Dennis. Double ended means same shape on both ends. The latter are most practical for those who load target loads by the thousands, just so they don't have to be particular about which end goes into the case. Blindly grab out of the box and load the sucker. ... felix

[Bucks Owin]

You think right, Dennis. Double ended means same shape on both ends. The latter are most practical for those who load target loads by the thousands, just so they don't have to be particular about which end goes into the case. Blindly grab out of the box and load the sucker. ... felix

Uh, that's not my question. (Dale53 correctly explained "double ended") What I want to know is what the "42C" means? I imagine the "2C" means double cavity, but what about the 4?

Dennis

And BTW, even a double ended boolit "should" be loaded with the "good" end into the case and the sprue end pointed out....(Also as Dale53 explained...)

[floodgate]

I recieved a used mould I bought at auction yesterday and am wondering about some of it's ID numbers. It's a double end wadcutter style and reads as follows: 35863

I know that 358 designates the diameter (after sizing I presume, boolits drop at .359" to .360") and the 63 I "think" means the design number eg the 63rd design style of a .358" mould?

However there are more numbers underneath the 35863, and they are: 42C
What does the 42C signify? (? 2 cavity?)

Curious,

Dennis

BTW, since there more than 100 different .358 designs made by Lyman over the years, my mould (if new) would now read "358063" right?

Dennis:

Lyman mould numbers go back to about 1897, at which time Ideal's proprietor, John H. Barlow, had about 150 different bullet cherries in stock. To keep track of them, he started a system by which a number was assigned to each, with the first three digits being - more or less - the caliber, and the remaining one, two or three numbers identifying the cherry. As newer designs were added, further cherry numbers were assigned, reaching #257-388 (a gas-check spitzer for the .250-3000 Savage) in 1915. The number #32363 was originally assigned to a 50-gr. round ball for shooting gallery use in the special top-break S&W .32-44 target revolver on the .44 No. 3 frame. Many years later, after Lyman acquired Ideal, they dropped the RB's from the sequence (just listing them by diameter), and the #...63 became vacant; it was re-assigned to the .38 Spl. DEWC in 1970, as #35863, becoming #358(0)63 to keep the computers happy, and was carried in the line through 1991.

The "42" should appear on BOTH blocks, as a "match number" to keep the pair together after cherrying; the "C" is probably an identifier for the cherrying machine used or its operator.

There, a L - O - N - G answer to a simple question.

floodgate

[klausg]

floodgate- Thanks a mint! While a little long, great information. I have been watching this thread all morning as the same thought had occurred to me. Guess I'm just a curious SOB.

-SSG Klaus

[kodiak1]

damn floodgate that was worth all the reading it took. I think I would have hung on for at least a couple more pages.
I have always wondered about the numbering system for Ideal and Lyman moulds.
Ken.

[Bucks Owin]

Wow! Many thanks Floodgate, that was a great post....

Dennis

[floodgate]

Bucks, Kodiak, klausg:

You're welcome! Makes all those years of collecting Ideal / Lyman moulds and poring over old Ideal Handbooks and Lyman Annual Catalogs worthwhile. Go the CASTPICS site at <www.castpics.net> and you'll find most Ideal and Lyman designs pictured under "Research and Data" / "Lyman Moulds" and "Excerpts from Ideal Handbook No. 9". I'm happy to answer questions about specific designs, dates of issue and discontinuance, etc., etc.

floodgate

[Bucks Owin]

Bucks, Kodiak, klausg:

You're welcome! Makes all those years of collecting Ideal / Lyman moulds and poring over old Ideal Handbooks and Lyman Annual Catalogs worthwhile. Go the CASTPICS site at <www.castpics.net> and you'll find most Ideal and Lyman designs pictured under "Research and Data" / "Lyman Moulds" and "Excerpts from Ideal Handbook No. 9". I'm happy to answer questions about specific designs, dates of issue and discontinuance, etc., etc.

floodgate

One more thing while we're at it amigo....
I'm pretty sure there is a "U" for undersize moulds right? Is there also an "O" for oversize? Is it down where the cherry/match number is?

TIA,

Dennis

[floodgate]

Bucks:

"Is there also an "O" for oversize? Is it down where the cherry/match number is?"

No, if it was anywhere, it'd be a prefix or suffix to the mould number stamp. I have never run across an "O" for oversize; this is usually reflected by a change in the first three "size-to" digits, as when the standard #311299 was augmented by addition of an "oversize" #314299 to accomodate the .303B, the 7/65's, the Roosian 7.62's etc.* One bullet (I don't recall which, and it's buried in my notes somewhere) has as "-ES" suffix to the mould number indicating "extra small". And in several cases (just to add to the fun), an "-S" suffix (e.g., #360271-S) was used to indicate an undersized bullet cherry, for the newer 0.357" .38 Spl. vs. the older .38 S&W with its slightly larger 0.360" groove diameter specs. But then, "-S" was also used in one case for a "short-cherried", lighter-weight version of one of the standards - I THINK it was #257388-S, a Spitzer plain base vs. the "normal" #257388n Spitzer gas check bullet, but don't hold me to it. (My memory is not what it once was - if it EVER was - and I'm too tahr'd to rummage through my several feet of files on Ideal / Lyman moulds and tools. I could go on for days on the subject, but won't.)

Yer lookin' for LOGIC here?? HA!!!

Actually, with Lyman moulds, what ya' got is what ya' got - no more; no less.

floodgate

* Others went the other way, as when the #454424 for the .45 Colt was redesignated #452424, when the barrel makers standardized on the barrel specs. originally established for the .45 ACP, and the .45 Colt (I did NOT say .45 LONG Colt, not wanting to re-awaken THAT argument!) shrank a bit in response. F.

[Bret4207]

I knew Doug would come through for you guys. FWIW- 1 of my older Lyman books states that the "U" moulds will cast at nominal bore diameter. IOW- a 311291U is supposed to drop boolits at .308, not.not .310 or .311 as we often see (and hope for).

This thread tickled a thought. I bought a 360271-S years ago for my S+W Perfected model 38 S+W. I never thought to measure the boolits. My mould may be too skinny!

[26Charlie]

Have a couple of moulds for the Loverin design for the .270, in two different weights. 280468S is nominal 105 gr., 280468L is nominal 125 gr. I believe. Difference is length of the bullet, nose and base being the same.

[floodgate]

Have a couple of moulds for the Loverin design for the .270, in two different weights. 280468S is nominal 105 gr., 280468L is nominal 125 gr. I believe. Difference is length of the bullet, nose and base being the same.

26Charlie:

That's interesting! If they are BOTH gas-check bullets - as most Loverins are - that means they maintained different cherries for each, which might be why they were so-marked. Usually, the shorter versions are just "short cherried" (i.e.; the cherry is just set less deeply between the mould halves when the cutting starts), and the "short version of a GC turns our to be a plain-base.

floodgate

[Bucks Owin]

Thanks to Floodgate, I can now say I feel I've passed "Lyman ID 101"! :-)

Thanks again professor!

Dennis

[nighthunter]

Also ... 10 or 12 years ago Lyman started dateing their molds with the month and year of production. Such as .... 5-99 or 10-98. I see molds on EBAY listed as vintage and the seller then lists the numbers off the mold and the production date is only a couple of years ago. That must make me extra vintage.
Nighthunter

[montana_charlie]

floodgate,
What does 'CV' mean?

Specifically...
Looking at precast bullets on the Track Of The Wolf website you find that a Lyman 457125AV has a .440" bore riding nose. The 457125CM has a nose of .449".

There is a mould for sale on eBay right now that is described as "457125CV 960 2H".

Can you 'decipher' that for me?
CM

[floodgate]

floodgate,
What does 'CV' mean?

Specifically...
Looking at precast bullets on the Track Of The Wolf website you find that a Lyman 457125AV has a .440" bore riding nose. The 457125CM has a nose of .449".

There is a mould for sale on eBay right now that is described as "457125CV 960 2H".

Can you 'decipher' that for me?
CM

Charlie:

So far as we have been able to determine, letter suffuxes like the "CV", "AV", and various others (other than the "S", "ES" and the "U" prefix for "undersized" discussed above) seem to be some sort of code, possibly identifying the machine or operator who cut the mould, an inspector's stamp, the specific cherry used if they maintained more than one for popular designs, or - less likely - a production date code (they now use a month / year stamp for this). With the wide variation between the two on the TOTW site, and the known variance between individual cherries for a specific bullet, a cherry ID looks quite likely. The "960" should appear on both blocks as a "match number" to keep the set together through finishing, packaging and distribution. The "2H" might be another code of some sort.

floodgate

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for the reply, floodgate.

The seller says his nose (err...you know what I mean) mics at .448" on the mould with that CV suffix. That doesn't correspond with anything I thought I knew...but might make sense after all, from what you say.

I'm gonna pass on that mould, but if anyone else is interested in the 500 grain 'government' pattern it's here...
http://cgi.ebay.com/45-CAL-LYMAN-45-70-500-GR-SHARPS-style-mold-mould_W0QQitemZ7241719488QQcategoryZ71118QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem
and the price (right now) is 20 bucks.
CM

[Bucks Owin]

Looks like a good deal to me! We all know what new Lyman moulds cost....

FWIW,

Dennis

[floodgate]

Charlie:

You're welcome! I've got a letter off to Tom Griffin of Lyman's ballistic lab asking about those odd letter and number stamps. He's been helpful in the past. I will report if / when the info comes in. Sloulda done this long ago!

floodgate

[floodgate]

To All:

I just got a very prompt and helpful letter back from Tom Griffin at Lyman:

"In regards to your question on mould stampings, you may see something like the following sramped on our moulds:

311291 EV

132 [ +132, on each block]*

F 1

In this example, [311291 is the mould design number - size-to plus 'cherry number']; EV is the code for the cutter [i.e.; the specific cherry of several on hand] used for this mould. The 132 is a matching number stamped on both block halves. The letter F would be the initial of the employee that cut the mould and the number 1 after this would be the code for the machine we cut the mould on.

We have used this system for many years now, maybe 30 or 40 years. As you know, earlier moulds may vary from this system somewhat.

In addition, for the past 5 or 6 years, we have been adding a date stamping to the block. This would simply be 5-06 for this month."

So, our guesses were more-or-less correct, but it is nice to have this confirmed by someone who has been in the thick of this for a long time.

I plan to get back to Tom to see if he can tell us when (a) Lyman began to cut vent lines in their blocks (my guess is, around 1960), and (b) when they began stamping the moulds "LYMAN" instead of "IDEAL" (again, my guess is, either 1969 - 1970, when the Lyman Gun Sight Corporation was absorbed by the Leisure Group, or 1978, when they went back on their own, as the Lyman Products Corporation).

Stay tuned.

Doug

* The comments in brackets [-] are my clarifications of just what we are talking about.

[StarMetal]

Doug,

Thanks for your research. I admire you for how you have an interest in the past of implements used in our hobby. Good job and well done.

Joe

[floodgate]

Joe:

Thanks for the kind words. As I have mentioned here before, I don't actually shoot much - mostly interested in the "machinery", its history, why it was designed the way it was, and how it functions; ditto the casting and reloading. But that's MY "bag". The Lyman / Ideal stuff is something I've been following since the late '50's, with more recent side excursions into Belding & Mull, Modern-Bond and other "minor" makers of moulds and tools. I'm trying to get it all down on paper (don't really trust them electrons!) in some sort of order, via Beagle's "Cast Boolit Compendium" and the Antique Reloading Tool Collectors Association Board <www.antiquereloadingtools.com> and Newsletter, along with a great many other good folks, including those here. The work is its own reward, but appreciation like yours is "dessert". And I learn a lot from you and the rest of the "gang", in areas where I am less active - but still interested. This place is definitely "HOME". Thanks!

floodgate

[Pepe Ray]

Hi Gang,
FWIW, in 1962 I purchased, new, a Lyman reloading kit for my 30-30. By mail.
In the kit was a 311466 bullet mold. It had vent machining.
Also my next door neighbor who was a long time shooter and had a number of molds, introduced me to casting. I don't recall that any of his molds were bare of vent lines. It was many years before I saw a ventless mold.
I still have the 311466. Hope this helps. Pepe Ray

[StarMetal]

Doug,

I have a Belding & Mull powder measure, but what may be of interest to you is I have one of their stainless steel cleaning rod with two jags, one is marked 30 and the 7 as those were the two main calibers I shot. They must have made a variety of products.

Joe

[montana_charlie]

That's interesting information, floodgate. It's immediately clear how it could add to the 'compendium' you are working on, but another question would be, "How does the average Joe make use of it?'

Say we have a guy wanting a Lyman 457125 mould. Because he read this thread (or whatever) he knows there are at least three cherry-specific alpha suffixes on moulds of that design...and that each suffix indicates a different diameter in the bore riding nose section.

If he decides that the CV variant with the .448 nose is what he wants, how does he get one?

And if that question has an answer...how 'bout this one (actually three)...

How many 'suffixes' exist for other Lyman designs, what dimensional differences do they indicate for the design in question, and where is the list that a buyer would look through to pick his cherry?
CM

[floodgate]

Montana Charlie:

I can't really answer your questions, and I'd rather not bug Tom for details like this. My goal was just to get a "translation" of the numbers and letters people have been asking about, and we've now got that.

If we really DO want to chase this down, I do have a suggestion: We could pick one of the popular designs like the #457125, ask everyone to post the full number(s) and suffix(es) on their mould(s), pick out those with the same cherry suffix (e.g.; "CV"), cast up a bunch in a controlled alloy (Lyman #2, or 1:20 tin:lead), and compare profiles and diameters on nose and lube-groove areas. But, frankly, I think the info would be swamped by variations in casting temperature and technique, progressive wear over time on the "CV" cherry, etc., etc. I frankly don't think we'd learn anything useful.

We could also order up a batch of new moulds cut with the same cherry (or two different ones) to compare, but they have not seemed at all responsive to a "group buy" of any sort. This is too picky, even for me... I think, "whatcha got...is whatcha got."

floodgate

[floodgate]

Doug,

I have a Belding & Mull powder measure, but what may be of interest to you is I have one of their stainless steel cleaning rod with two jags, one is marked 30 and the 7 as those were the two main calibers I shot. They must have made a variety of products.

Joe

Joe:

Years ago I picked up a bunch of B & M cleaning rods, in little leatherette pouches; these were the Type C rods with six-inch sections, for rifles at least (the Type A's were one-piece, 36 inches long, and the B's were in three sections, two 12-inch and one six-inch, plus tips). They came in two batches, with different type pouches (zipper vs. snap), and the older(?) ones had a proprietary thread with an adapter for standard brushes. They are fine rods, and I still use them now and then in the field.

When B & M was formed, about 1923, Mull (we don't know his first name) evidently contributed the rod design, with what we still call the "Mull Tip" with centering spike, while W. S. Belding contributed his 'scope and mount designs; they promptly went on to develop their moulds and "Straightline" reloading tools, and later - around 1927 or 1928, -the powder measure we all love. As they faded out in the '80's, having evolved into a general sporting goods distribution operation - the cleaning rods were about the last of their own items they still had on offer.

Geez, you got me wound up and running again; STOP IT!

floodgate

[montana_charlie]

I can't really answer your questions,
Sorry...I didn't mean to leave the impression that you should. They were more of a rehtorical nature than anything.
Kinda like if X is true, and Y is true - how does that relate to Z...if Z existed?

I am not after a 457125 mould...or any Lyman mould, at the moment...but not too long ago I was looking at them pretty hard. That's when I noticed the 'suffixes' and started wondering...
CM

[floodgate]

CM:

I didn't mean to blow you off, either. But rather than chase out the fine variations between moulds, swap them back and forth among us to get the "perfect fit", and so on, a better bet might be to just have Dan or one of the other custom makers run one up to the specs needed for a particular alloy and chamber / bore dimension. Thet's what the bench resters, BPCR long-range, etc., types do, and it seems to be worth it for them.

Doug

[StarMetal]

Doug,

I have the type "A" rod 36 inchs long. One of the best cleaning rods I've owned. Sees full duty yet.

Joe

[floodgate]

Guys:

I got another letter off to Tom Griffin at Lyman asking about more details on the identification of Lyman moulds; in this case the date at which they began venting the moulds, and when the stamping "IDEAL" was replaced by "LYMAN"; also an inquiry about availability of information on the "specialty" moulds in the #xxx5xx cherry number series. Sort of unfair, as this was all before his time at Lyman. But he very kindly provided the following:

"I do not have a solid answer on when moulds were first vented. My estimate would be the early to mid '50's [this jibes with my recollections]. This is because vented moulds are pictured in our 1st edition Cast Bullet Handbook, which was published in 1958. Of course....non-vented moulds could have been on the shelf for many years before the inventory was completely turned over."

"As far as the "Ideal" name stamped on moulds, I believe the switch to the Lyman name occurred in 1964. I have seen change notices on old prints referencing this change as being in 1964."

"As far as moulds in the xxx500 to xxx599 range, this is a real black hole! I've been asked about these before and never had much luck researching them. I think that you have more info than us! Wish I could help, but this one has always been tough."

I have sent him the final draft of the writeup on Ideal / Marlin moulds from 1884 through 1915 prepared for Beagle's "Cast Boolit Compendium" as a "thank you"; and for any corrections or additional information he might be able to provide. Tom is definitely one of the "GOOD GUYS"!!

On a sadder note, I have just been working through the bullet mould listings in Lyman's Annual Product Catalog for 2006 and find that the last remaining moulds for the 6mm (#245496) and .41 Magnum (#410610) have been dropped. This is only partly compensated for by the re-introduction of #412263, a 288-gr. RN PB for the .405, and #515142, a 515-gr. FP PB for the .50-70 and other "big fifties". Hard to believe that interest in the 6mms and the .41 Mag. have dropped off THAT far! But at least they are responding to the increased interest in the big "oldies".

floodgate