Dangers of cast bullets in m1 carbine?

[ELFEGO BACA]

I found this on the ultimax website http://www.ultimak.com/default.htm and i am wondering if anyone has had problems shooting cast bullets in their m1 carbine. I am not sure how many hundreds of cast bullets i have shot with my m1 carbine but i have not noticed any problems.:cbpour:
The website: http://www.ultimak.com/M6instructions.htm contains the following.

Tip: Never use bare lead bullets in your Carbine. Though they may feed and function for a while, each lead bullet will leave a tiny shaving of lead in the gas channel. Eventually, the gas piston will jam on the lead shavings, rendering your Carbine inoperable. The only cure is to completely strip the Carbine, remove the piston, and clean out all the lead. It can be dangerous too: Since the jammed piston will not allow the op rod all the way forward, it could result in a cartridge firing "out of battery" (firing with the bolt lock lugs only partially engaged with the receiver). Use only jacketed bullets, as the Carbine was designed for them. JPHs (jacketed hollow points) will be fine as long as they feed reliably and leave no lead exposed to the bore surfaces.:holysheep

Elfego

[Buckshot]

.............I've never heard of an M1 firing out of battery for any reason. I do know that it appears that lead CAN be an issue with the gas tappet, but from my reading it isn't something that happens to everyone, only happens after considerable shooting, and happens rather less often then more. I had an M1A1 almost 25 years ago and shot quite a lot of cast out of it and didn't have any problems.

I do not believe in the 'Lead Sliver' theory however. I know for a fact that lead boolits (it's been proven) with BP as the propellant upset ONLY at ignition. While smokless is progressive in it's burning characteristics, it also does not cause upset anywhere else in the barrel except in the first few inches. Unless there is a mechanical issue causing actual lead shaving at the gas port it just isn't happening.

I'm more inclined to think it may be general trash accumilation from less then optimal loads. Possibly some lead vapor deposits also? The general design of the Carbine's gas operaitng system, it's more open or looseness, or shortness of the system seem very self cleaning. I will say that more resently a friend was shooting an M1 with cast and it stopped operaitng semi-automatically. Removing the barreled action from the stock we found a broken piston. There was no evidence shooting cast lead was an issue.

The carbine operated fine until it stopped. He did not have a gas cylinder wrench with him but the piston was broken into 2 pieces. I think it was simply the piston's time to break and his shooting cast in it was only coincidental.

................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Internet legends....

[oldhickory]

I think it's more an ignorance of cast boolits and not knowing their guns. I've shot boolits in my carbines for over 35yrs with no gas system problems what so ever. Then again, maybe I just didn't know they were supposed to clog with lead and stop working.;)

[zomby woof]

No problems so far.

[Patrick L]

BS.

I've fired thousands of plain base (ie not even a gascheck) cast bullets through my carbine (actually carbines; I used to have two) and have NEVER seen any appreciable leading of either the bore or the gas system. I own a castle wrench and I take my piston out every 200-300 rds to clean it, and have never found any lead shavings in there. In fact, there's nothing more than the ordinary carbon build up you would get with jacketed bullets anyway.

[bertus]

My M1 doesn`t like cast bullits I guess that there is a burr at the hole where the gas bleeds off my piston would get stuck ,soldered if you like after about 100 rounds

[wallenba]

I've come to realize that the non-casting community is largely unfamiliar with the concept of alloying lead. They equate all lead as soft and likely to to deform, distort or shave easily. A pure lead or real soft 30 caliber may do just what they predict. But how many of us would use that for an M1?

[NickSS]

I started shooting cast bullets in an M1 carbine in 1965 when I bought my first carbine. Since then I have fired thousands of them in several carbines both GI and Commercial made. The only problem I ever had was on an Iver Johnson made carbine back in the late 70 or early 80s. The carbine had a casting welded to the barrel which held the gas piston. The housing cracked and the bolt was peening over its locking lugs. I sent it back and they put a new barrel and bolt in it and I used it for several more years until I sold it. Never had a bit of trouble with a GI. In fact I read a lot of C***P about lead in the gas piston so at first I would take the piston out every 500 rounds to see if I had lead buildup. I never found any so after a while I would only take the piston out after 2 -3 thousand rounds to clean out carbon fouling. Never did find any lead.

[bob208]

i naver had a lead problem with mine.

[Hickory]

I'm gonna wander off the trail a little bit just to express my personal feeling of the dangers of lead boolits.
The real danger is that they are very good at killing anything I have ever shot with them.
Just my thoughts on the dangers of [lead] cast boolits.:Fire:

[mto7464]

My M1 doesn`t like cast bullits I guess that there is a burr at the hole where the gas bleeds off my piston would get stuck ,soldered if you like after about 100 rounds

Could you post your load data for the problem load? Boolit type, GC of not, powder amount and type, size.

[jonk]

Gee, should I re-melt the carbine bullets I cast yesterday?

[ELFEGO BACA]

Edited with website addresses given.

[Alferd Packer]

Shot many weapons in Viet Nam.
The 30 carbine among them.
I asked about the stopping power as I had heard WW2 vets say it was " no damn good".
The SF Sergeant, they are all Sergeants and above, said this to me.
The guys you heard from were just fellows that never learned to shoot accurately. They are the same same that s
ay a .45 auto ain't any use either.
Of course Dad taught me to shoot using g a .45 auto and a 1903 Springfield.
He used both in North Africa in 1942.
He never mentioned the carbine although he carried one all through the Italian campaigns as a High Speed Radio Operator.
Anyway, I saw plenty of carbines in use by our troops and the Virtnamese.
Even Charley Cong was caught with them and they killed some of our boys with them too.
So the carbine sure isn't a Garand by any means.
But it's the operator who knows his weapon who makes the difference.
I also load and cast bullets for .25 acp and .32 acp.
Just sayin'

[too many things]

would say most is from very soft--like pure lead. normal no2 or the like should not cause problems if the lube is good quality
i never had any problems, but thats my 2 cents

[Outpost75]

Pure BS. Period.

[sghart3578]

I found this on the ultimax website http://www.ultimak.com/default.htm and i am wondering if anyone has had problems shooting cast bullets in their m1 carbine. I am not sure how many hundreds of cast bullets i have shot with my m1 carbine but i have not noticed any problems.:cbpour:
The website: http://www.ultimak.com/M6instructions.htm contains the following.

Tip: Never use bare lead bullets in your Carbine. Though they may feed and function for a while, each lead bullet will leave a tiny shaving of lead in the gas channel. Eventually, the gas piston will jam on the lead shavings, rendering your Carbine inoperable. The only cure is to completely strip the Carbine, remove the piston, and clean out all the lead. It can be dangerous too: Since the jammed piston will not allow the op rod all the way forward, it could result in a cartridge firing "out of battery" (firing with the bolt lock lugs only partially engaged with the receiver). Use only jacketed bullets, as the Carbine was designed for them. JPHs (jacketed hollow points) will be fine as long as they feed reliably and leave no lead exposed to the bore surfaces.:holysheep

Elfego

Steaming crock of horse crap based on my experience.


Steve in N CA

[Larry Gibson]

Pure BS. Period.

+1........

[Texas by God]

I plan on taking 100 rounds of .30 carbine/ C309113F to shoot this weekend. If you dont hear from me- you know what happened.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[W.R.Buchanan]

Let me add my .02 to this BS. With 50,000 psi behind it, nothing is going to stick around very long in a gas system on a high powered rifle.

I have heard this particular line of BS for the last 30 years, but so far have not been able to actually see it take place,, and I have looked.

I concluded it was a crock around 1990 when I first heard about it.

A Water-Jet Cutting machine will cut steel with less than 50,000 psi and just plain water. A little lead wouldn't even have a chance.

I consider this Myth "Busted!!!"

Randy.

[jimb16]

OK! I'm going to throw my $0.02 into the ring. I've owned 20 carbines over the years (3 right now). That included a registered M2 carbine. I shot cast in every one of them, including the M2. Only 1 of them ever had a problem with cast bullets and it was a Saginaw Gear. It had a rough spot on the edge of the gas port. It did shave lead into the gas chamber. Even then, it never caused the piston to stick out preventing the slide from moving fully forward. The vent would plug up before that happened preventing the piston from operating. This story, to me, is a bunch of B.S. Yes, I did have to remove the piston on that carbine and use a small drill bit to clear the leading in the gas port. But that was all. No significant lead build up was to be found in the expansion chamber and what was in there was easily cleaned out with solvent used to remove powder fouling. At least half of all carbine ammo that I shoot is cast loads and I don't have any problems. I never need to remove the gas piston to clean the piston chamber. It just doesn't lead up. BTW the carbine operates at a max of 40,000 PSI, not 50,000. (minor technical point)

[biffj]

I've been working on machineguns for a long time. I have had some experience with the problem in the M2 carbine but not the M1 as I don't work on them. In all the time I've been doing this I've had 2 M2 carbines come in the shop for failures to function. Both guns had lead in the gas system that plugged the flow or jammed the piston. Both had a lot of lead in them but neither stopped the piston from going forward. It wasn't too tough to clean them out once the pistons were removed. One piston was especially difficult to get out as it had lead holding it in place but we got it out and cleaned up. The big difference in the M1 and M2 for shooting lead is heat. A guy who dumps a couple 30rd mags at 600 rpm will take the barrel temp up to near the melting point of lead. With the heat applied to the bullet by the powder burning and the hot barrel there will be vaporized lead in the gas venting into the gas chamber where it will eventually cool enough to be a problem. Both owners of the guns we worked on said they had no issues the last time they shot their rifles, it was the next time they tried to shoot them that they would not function. The deposits cooled sufficiently to become a plug by that time. The carbine ammo isn't going to have 50k psi at the gas port and with no flow it won't remove any buildup. The gas system is a dead end so regardless of pressure things won't just work.

Shaving lead may be a myth but enough heat can cause its own issues. Back in the early 2000s when surplus ammo was really cheap there were a lot of issues with machineguns that were new and different and due entirely to poor management of triggers. Many guns were not ever intended to be run at the high rates some owners think is neat and fun. Things happen. The M1 carbine was never intended to be a machinegun and the M2 conversions had a lot of issues due to the adaptation. Just something to think about and maybe one of the sources of the myths about shooting lead in carbines?

Frank

[Win94ae]

Exactly what happened to my AK. Clean it out when it needs it. Took a few thousand. I don't think it is shavings, but lead, lube and powder residue.

[Texas by God]

I didnt make it through 50 rounds because it was so dang hot. Ringing a 6" gong offhand wasnt hard at all. I do need to up my powder charge a bit. Great function but some sooting of cases and blow back of gas was noted. My 110 jsp loads are factory speed and no problem. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200706/11964b586db8b43180145e6888b571fe.jpg

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[Larry Gibson]

biffj

Pb's or GC bullets used?

My experience over many years shooting cast bullets in numerous M2s resulted in no plugging of the gas port at all. I had 25 M2 Carbines in my arms vault (SF Company and an indoor range where I shot them often along with outdoor ranges on Fort Lewis. I used mostly the 311359 GC over H110 for 1850 fps. several got hot enough dumping 30 round mags full the shooter need a glove to hold the hot [and many times smoking] forends.

[elmacgyver0]

If it is actually shaving lead it will most likely shave copper too.

[jimb16]

Larry, I had the exact same experience with my M2. Smoking stock and all and no leading. But I didn't leave rounds in a hot chamber either. Didn't want any cooking off!

[dogmower]

I've shot just short of a Bazillion rounds of cast through my M1 and M2 carbines. Never a problem, in fact they generally shoot better than jacketed. So, no, cast is not a problem.

[car16]

I have shot thousands of cast both plain base and gas check no problems

[mfraser264]

Using the RCBS 115 round nose bullet with gas check cast of Linotype have shot 2,000-3,000 through M1 from Universal out of Florida. Only problem was case lenght and I figured that our as a teenager. Keep the cases to spec on the length or they will not chamber. Also sized the bullets to .310 driving it with H110. At one time probably had every head stamp of brass there was and it performed very well. I remember my father saying how well the loads worked and he qualified in the armed services with a M1 Carbine. So yes it is viable option and cost efficient considering most of the tie the bullets impact a sand bank so why burn up more expensive jacketed bullets when cast bullet work just fine.

One other tip when trimming, may need to reduce the .30 caliber pilot down a few thousands of an inch to compensate for case taper.

[roverboy]

I've never heard of this personally but, did see a Thai M1 carbine made by Howa, that had a piston get stopped up with something and come loose. I don't think it was lead shavings. My Inland has a band around it to secure it in place. The Howa Thai was soldered in place.