input on this 45/70 pls

[charger 1]

I'll be honest. I could never get my head into cast. For over 3 decades of loading I was of the opinion that modern times called for modern bullets...Well,I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. While flicking through the local ads I came upon an older LBT 458 325 gr WFN GC mold(frontal are of .360).And man oh man has my malin 95 in 45/70 been getting a work out since I got this mold..I quick figured out a mixture of 2% tin +or-,and I just water drop them from the mold....Now heres the question. I have a little bullet test I do.I have this box thats 28" cube,I take the lid off and insert a thin rubber bladder(thickness of a bicycle tube)The garden hose fills the whole thing up,I put the lid back on and wammy from 50 yds away. These bullets leave the bore at 2070,so with their dismal BC probably hit the box at 1700.about 1 out of five will be found completely mushroomed at the back of the box,the other 4 will leave their musroom petals at the back of the box and a core of about 230 grains,aprox .550" dia will tumble out and land in the grass. My plan was to hunt elk at sub 100 yds with this...Feedback please.PS,I can smash this bullet with a hammer to one third its orig thickness with no pieces breaking off. With that flat nose should I be even harder?????

[Bass Ackward]

I'll be honest. I could never get my head into cast. For over 3 decades of loading I was of the opinion that modern times called for modern bullets...Well,I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. While flicking through the local ads I came upon an older LBT 458 325 gr WFN GC mold(frontal are of .360).And man oh man has my malin 95 in 45/70 been getting a work out since I got this mold..I quick figured out a mixture of 2% tin +or-,and I just water drop them from the mold....Now heres the question. I have a little bullet test I do.I have this box thats 28" cube,I take the lid off and insert a thin rubber bladder(thickness of a bicycle tube)The garden hose fills the whole thing up,I put the lid back on and wammy from 50 yds away. These bullets leave the bore at 2070,so with their dismal BC probably hit the box at 1700.about 1 out of five will be found completely mushroomed at the back of the box,the other 4 will leave their musroom petals at the back of the box and a core of about 230 grains,aprox .550" dia will tumble out and land in the grass. My plan was to hunt elk at sub 100 yds with this...Feedback please.PS,I can smash this bullet with a hammer to one third its orig thickness with no pieces breaking off. With that flat nose should I be even harder?????


Charger,

This is minimum range testing. You might move that back 15 yards and everything be peachy keen. I do this at multiple ranges to establish min and max ranges. And everyone should.

No matter what action you take, no guarante can be given on bullet construction. That is why I never go over 60% meplats on rifle bullets. Or I should say bullets designed to be used at rifle velocities. My 45 rifle bullets have 50% meplats. You need the lead to be able to maintain the meplat or it rounds off into a round nose or worse. But you have options.

Alter your mix to make it more ductile. The percentage of tin should match the percentage of antimony WITHOUT going over it. Or add more pure lead and then water drop it. Hardness can actually work against you here. Maintaining a wide meplat places increased stress on the lead if penetration is needed. A softer bullet might round off some and stay more intact. You have to find where this compromise is through testing. Many ways to do that but all are time consuming.

Drop your velocity until it works at 50 everytime if this is a minimum distance written in stone. Might be just 100 fps. Or move your minimum range out farther.

[BABore]

Cut your WW's with up to 50% Pb. Add Sn if needed for fillout and Mag leadshot if they don't want to harden. OHT or WD. I OHT mine at 435 F for an hour and get 22Bhn. They will mushroom without the petals coming off easily. All of this comes not from me, but from our favorite bullet designer and it works.

These are some of mine shot into pine logs at 75 yards. 420 gr GC, 73% meplat, 1,750 fps MV

[charger 1]

Oh mine will mushroom like he double toothpicks in wood,but I shoot animals with 80% water content. So I'm trying different distances with my water,cause if they work in that they'll work in anything I figure. Weather they mushroom alot cause I fire at the water at 40 or only a little cause I'm back at 70 the end result is always the same.The bullet is lying on the ground just on the other side.It is totally exhausted,which to me means its energy went where? INTO THE BOX OF WATER..TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY....I dont care how energy is dumped,as long as it is and it is. Total energy transfer. If you were standing on the other side of that box of water you could catch it....
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Chargerdive/HPIM0735.jpg

[Greg]

Charger-

You haven’t said what your alloy is...so,

Take about 4 pounds of this alloy, and then add 10% magnum shot or wheel weights. Take GOOD notes. Cast a batch of boolits with this improved(?) alloy, water drop them and after 72 hours (to set) then retry the penetration test.

I think that you would want a little less upset and a tad more penetration.

I killed a nice cow Elk that was 24" inside the rib-cage. A bull Elk could be somewhat (lots) bigger and then the ribs themselves. Coming and going. An ole’ timer splained it to me as ‘you want the air whistlein thru to set the shock’, makes the boolit work better or the animal deader. Air in both sides, blood out both sides.

I would want the boolit harder but still malleable.

P.S. Don’t try to catch the boolit...if you need more than you got I could send you some.

[Greg]

Charger-

Another thought;

in the picture you have one boolit completely upset and the far right one looking real decent...( At least what [I] think it ought to look like.)

Are you positive that these boolits were the same hardness when they went thru the test box?

or, is there a chance that one of the boolits could have entered the quench bucket at a considerable cooler temp...( mould still coming up to temp? )

that might explain one boolit mushed up and one boolit not ?

Before you change the alloy, Enquiring minds want to know.

[Bucks Owin]

Your test medium has a lot to do with what kind of expansion you get. Here is a photo of a pair of .44 cal Hornady XTPs fired at the same velocity.

The one that looks undamaged was fired into an oak block (with the grain) and had it's hollow point clogged with wood. Not much expansion here. In fact I could reload it and fire it again!

The pieces flanking it are what's left of the same boolit fired into a row of 10 ziplock sandwhich bags 3/4 full of water backed with wet sawdust. The violent expansion in water tore the jacket right off of it although the lead core made it through all 10 bags and about 18" of wet packed sawdust...

Velocity was 1150 fps in both cases....

FWIW, I would not want to hunt hogs with one of these boolits. A hardcast 310 gr .44 would have penetrated all the way through my 4' long test rig I'll bet...(And I'm gonna find out...)


http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/recoveredXTP.jpg

[Buckshot]

...............Your testing of your cast boolits is commendable. You SHOULD have an idea of what they'll do. There is a website around called "The Truth Box" or some such thing. The slug has to negotiate several pieces of drywall, containers of water and some other stuff. There are stacked bricks at the back. Many different cartridges and bullet types were fired through it.

What was very interesting to me was that the ONLY slug to make it all the through everything (including the bricks) was a cast lead boolit. IIRC it was from a 45-70 and the velocity was no big deal.

The higher the lead content of your slug, the more cohesive it will be. The higher the antimony the more brittle and likely to shed bits and pieces of itself when it tries to expand. A softer slug will expand easier, and have a tendancy to hang together.

...................Buckshot

[SharpsShooter]

Buckshot is on the right track. To put it into perspective for you, think of this as you test. The buffalo was nearly decimated by hunters using 45 and a few 50 calibers with "soft" lead boolits at impact velocities of less than 1000fps due to the distance. Certainly, some animals took more than one shot, but not always. Often a largish Buff shot broadside throught the lights (lungs) would collapse after a step or two completely perforated. I'd go two directions. First I'd soften the boolit by adding lead to the alloy mix and two, I'd reduce the velocity to around 1400-1500fps. It will become quite a bit more effective with the softer boolit and accurate shot placement will become easier due to reduced recoil.

[MGySgt]

I am with SharpsShooter - I shoot a repro 1866 Sharps in 45/90. Load is a 430gr gc with a 75% flatpoint at 1475. BRN = 11-12.

My cow Elk at 165 never knew what hit her. Bullet passed throught just above the heart and she walked about 20 yards before falling over. Both sides of the trail looked like some one just threw a bucket of blood on the ground.

45 and bigger kill clean with weight and mass driving it.

Besides - a 430 gr at 1475 is so much more pleasant to shoot then a 350 at 1800 plus - I know I have shot both and my shoulder sure was happy I lowered the velocity down some!

Just my Humble opinion.

Drew